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Author Topic: Bronze Program spins?  (Read 2848 times)

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Offline Skittl1321

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Bronze Program spins?
« on: December 06, 2011, 11:00:02 AM »
(Please don't tell me to ask my coach- he doesn't know.)

I am trying to figure out if I can compete my Bronze test program.  The jumps requirements will be lower than most in the level but they fit what is required for Bronze.

Spins are where I am confused. The test requires a scratch spin, a sit spin, and a backspin.  The competition requirements are 3 spins "of a different character".  I know under IJS, an upright spin is an upright spin regardless of foot- it would not be okay.  But this is 6.0 not IJS.  Is a forward upright spin a different character than a forward backspin?  And if it is not, why does the test to let you into the level not test that you are minimally proficient for the level (since apparently a combo will be necessary)

Offline irenar5

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Re: Bronze Program spins?
« Reply #1 on: December 06, 2011, 12:20:56 PM »
 I don't know the precise rules for the 6.0 regarding different nature of spins.  I do know that the competition requirements are not "reguirements", but rather limitations of what you can do.  You can do one spin if you like or MAXIMUM of 3.  On the Bronze  programs that I saw, few people included a camel, but most do a scratch (or a layback), a backscratch and a sit.
Also a lot of Bronze competitors include a lutz which is not even tested until Gold.  I think  there is a  general frustration with the USFSA system that allows for much higher standard at competitions vs the test.  It is my understanding that the ISI does not do that. 

Offline FigureSpins

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Re: Bronze Program spins?
« Reply #2 on: December 06, 2011, 01:02:26 PM »
ISI definitely doesn't do that - the test and competition required elements are the same and nothing from a higher level is allowed in a freestyle program.  (Below FS1, the skaters can use one element from FS1, just to make the program interesting.)  The traditional ISI Freestyle tests always had one or two really difficult elements, so skaters often got stuck, causing sandbagging allegations, etc., etc.  (Ex: axel on ISI FS5 held back many skaters who could do all the other elements in FS5)

I think the new ISI "open" categories (Bronze, Silver, Gold, Platinum) are helping with that issue and they're bridging the gap between ISI and USFSA levels.

USFSA test vs. competition standards will always be different because the USFSA is Creating Champions, not running a rec league.  I came to terms with this by recognizing that many skaters use their competition programs to pass the next-level-up test at the end of the season.  The competitions are really training runs for that end result. 

TBH, none of them will test up until they have most (if not all) of the elements for the one-more-up test.  Otherwise, they can't be competitive for next season.

That's why you'll see a USFSA Pre-preliminary Freeskate event where all the skaters have axels.  An axel isn't required until Juvenile.  Because of the required Moves testing, the skaters at the lowest levels take longer to move up in freeskate tests.
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Offline Skittl1321

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Re: Bronze Program spins?
« Reply #3 on: December 06, 2011, 01:51:08 PM »
I don't know the precise rules for the 6.0 regarding different nature of spins.  I do know that the competition requirements are not "reguirements", but rather limitations of what you can do.  You can do one spin if you like or MAXIMUM of 3.  On the Bronze  programs that I saw, few people included a camel, but most do a scratch (or a layback), a backscratch and a sit.
Also a lot of Bronze competitors include a lutz which is not even tested until Gold.  I think  there is a  general frustration with the USFSA system that allows for much higher standard at competitions vs the test.  It is my understanding that the ISI does not do that. 


Yes, I know it is a 3 spin maximum- my question is can I do a forward upright spin and a back upright spin.  This is what is in my program.  The competitions are a month before and the day before my test.  I am NOT doing two different programs.  If you say most people do scratch, backscratch, and sit- then it sounds like they are considered different.

The bronze test can include a lutz- it is 3 single jumps, salchow, toe-loop and one of skater's choice.  Most choose flip or loop, but jump wise the test standard doesn't say what might be included in the level.    (I did forget about camel though- so I guess a combo isn't completely necessary if two upright spins aren't allowed.  Either way, I'm not changing my program...  I just won't enter the competition...  The bronze skaters in this area are not very high level.)

Offline Skittl1321

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Re: Bronze Program spins?
« Reply #4 on: December 06, 2011, 01:52:40 PM »

TBH, none of them will test up until they have most (if not all) of the elements for the one-more-up test.  Otherwise, they can't be competitive for next season.


This is not true of adults (at least in this area).  Adults seem to test up (especially to Bronze) the second they can pass the test, regardless of if they will be competitive.  It's the only way to get to Adult Nationals.

I'm skating up to Bronze- my program is too long for Pre-Bronze, even though my elements fit much better there.

Offline FigureSpins

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Re: Bronze Program spins?
« Reply #5 on: December 06, 2011, 02:15:19 PM »
It's absolutely true among the standard-track skaters and I know several adults who used the same plan.  It's smart, conserves resources, and makes the program much more polished at the test session.  I get that Adult Nationals is the mecca, but racing to make the test deadline and then being disappointed because the gamble didn't work out isn't a good idea.  

You're implying that adults don't take testing as seriously as the standard-track test takers.  I haven't seen that to be true in the multiple rinks where I've worked.  These people work hard, plan and are conservative.  Some have goals that include Adult Nationals, but most test for the recognition of their achievements.  Polishing programs through competitions and testing is a great way to do well at Adult Nationals, rather than just being able to say they got to AN.

I know that you don't have the luxury of waiting to test because test sessions are few and far between.  I don't think your situation applies to every adult skater, however, many of our members have said they retested within a few months of the first try.  In my area, you could test at 2-3 clubs within a 3-hour drive during any given month.  (Except summer - things slow down then)

I wonder how many (late-start) adult skaters get a retest on Bronze the first time around because they're trying to beat the AN deadline?  

Assuming a competition is the same cost as getting a retest, it would be better to skate up at one or more competitions, then test.  Medals aside, those skaters are getting training and feedback for the test session.  Plus, it helps with focus and nerves to get ready ahead of time.
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Offline Skittl1321

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Re: Bronze Program spins?
« Reply #6 on: December 06, 2011, 02:35:58 PM »
Quote
You're implying that adults don't take testing as seriously as the standard-track test takers.
No, I'm implying that they don't take winning competitions as seriously. Standard track skaters hold back so they can be competitive at their levels.  It has nothing to do with the TEST, it has to do with the competition.  


I've been working on this test for 3 years, and it is in March, I'll miss the adult national deadline anyway. I would hardly say I am rushing. I have been ready to test about 4 times, but have been injured (or as of the case of the July test session, was just back to skating after an injury). However, I would hardly say testing when you are ready to pass (but not ready to win the level competitively) means you don't respect the test.
My test elements are ready, and the test has nothing to do with the topic, nor does what standard track skaters do. If you read my question, it has nothing to do with the test, it has to do with competition.

I actually started this topic because I'm planning on skating up- something you seem to be encouraging, so I'm not sure why you feel the need to lecture.  (Really, the reason I want to skate up is because that's the length my music is cut.  But I'm not changing my program that close to a test, so if it isn't useable, I just won't compete.)

Quote
Assuming a competition is the same cost as getting a retest, it would be better to skate up at one or more competitions, then test.
Wow- what do your competitions cost?  Around here tests are $25-35, and competitions are $75-$90!
It would actually make sense to use the test as an exhibition, but I wouldn't do that. Hence the reason I competed in July, but didn't try the test because my program wasn't ready. It would have been a heck of a lot cheaper to do the test, pretty much the same result too, since no one was watching the competition, it wasn't a competitive category, so I was only doing the program for myself anyway.

Offline FigureSpins

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Re: Bronze Program spins?
« Reply #7 on: December 06, 2011, 03:10:18 PM »
On the east coast, a low-level USFSA test costs around $45-60. A USFSA Competition costs around the same.  If your competitions are that expensive, there's your explanation.  The adults think they're saving money.  Are you sure the tests are $25-35?  If you're a club member, that's likely true - we get a rebate after the season, so ours end up costing around that much if we test at home.  However, if we test out of our home club, there's usually a $30-40 fee added on, plus hospitality.
 
Still, if you don't pass on the first try, the test ends up costing $50-75, the same as your competitions.  I asked before - do a lot of these skaters get a retest on their first try?  That rarely happens in my area, afaik.

If these skaters don't want to be ready to compete, why are they so eager to go to AN?  That's not the case among any of the adult skaters I know that have worked to go to AN.  They weren't satisfied with being an "also skated."

Part of the reason may be that Adults control their own destiny - they can spend money on attempting tests as many times as they want.  It's almost an indulgence or a gamble.  Younger skaters don't make that choice; coaches and parents don't like to gamble with test fees of $50 or more.  In that case, their responsible, adult parent makes the call to wait.

Yet, you're doing what the standard-track skaters do - competing in preparation of the test.  Maybe those other adult skaters in your area are just delusional and really think the stars will align to let them pass on a given day?   I know some people (young and old) who do that with competitions - they don't train or practice until the last minute, yet hope they'll land their jumps that they know are inconsistent.  I haven't seen it work, but it's their money.
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Offline Skittl1321

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Re: Bronze Program spins?
« Reply #8 on: December 06, 2011, 03:40:12 PM »
There is one other Adult Bronze lady at my club.  I think she tested way before she was prepared, she has a weak backspin and sit spin, and I think it is generous to call her loop a loop, but she passed.  (I can't assume that means I will pass- as the judges are never the same- all our judges come in from out of state. I have a stronger sit spin and backspin than she does, but my loop is hit or miss) She placed last at Adult Nationals and was thrilled to be there- she frequently skates in both her AN sweatshirt and ball-cap.  My coach thinks her competition program is stronger than my ability- because she is a decent jumper for an adult, but those aren't the elements on the test...
I know of two other Bronze ladies in the area, and don't know how their tests went or how many times they tried them.


I do not know anyone who has ever taken a test without thinking they could pass it. 
I know of a few skaters who took Silver moves and were SHOCKED by how badly they did not pass it.  To me, that is the coach's fault, but how can the coach know just how hard the standard is, if no one else has taken it around here?


An out of club test will be about $10 more, but I am testing in club. There is no rebate, it's just what you pay.  No hospitality fee.
Here are the clubs around here:
mine- 1 test session a year (March, with annual competition)
30 minutes away- used to host 2 a year, this year hosting none, they can't get the ice time.  They are also not hosting their annual competition this year. They are hosting state games in February, but no test session.
1 hour away- 1 test session a year (June, with annual competition)
2 hours away- used to do 1 or 2 a year, haven't heard of them hosting one in 2011-2012

Offline sarahspins

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Re: Bronze Program spins?
« Reply #9 on: December 06, 2011, 03:45:11 PM »
Skittl, your tests are cheap.. here pre-bronze tests are each $42, bronze are $60, silver are $66, and gold are $72.  While the comp that our local club puts on is in the $90 range to enter, there are some within a few hours away that are less than that and would compare more with a test fee in the $60-70 range (and some of the LTS comps include all of the adult levels and those are often only $25-30 to enter, making them much less than a test session)... however there are people like me who have zero interest in competing, I just want to do the tests as a personal "I did it" thing.  I may choose to compete later for fun, but right now that is not my goal.  I don't plan on testing anything until I am beyond 100% certain I will pass, and my test program is not just finished, but polished, mostly because I simply can't afford to take these things twice... it's not that I don't expect to pass, but I am not taking any chances.  Just to test through Pre-Bronze and Bronze is going to be $204 plus club fees (I still haven't joined, so that's another $160).

Anyways, under 6.0 I wouldn't worry whether a forward scratch and back scratch are different enough.  If you were skating under IJS that would be a different story, but if you were to need to change your spins, that's much simpler of a prospect than reworking large portions of your choreography.  If you can do a camel or a layback you could either instead of the forward upright spin, then there's no issue of "repeating" that upright spin for the back spin.

Offline Skittl1321

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Re: Bronze Program spins?
« Reply #10 on: December 06, 2011, 04:07:17 PM »
I did find one club (about 4 hours away) that charges $40 for bronze...  But it's still cheaper than the $75 for a competition (even with an extra out of club fee).  Moves tests are more expensive than freeskate it seems, but I did my Bronze moves years ago.  I wasn't a club member for years, since I didn't have tests or competitions to prepare for- like you, I didn't think it was worth the fee.  Unlike FigureSpins assertion that parents don't gamble with their money for tests for kids, I find they are more willing to spend money than the adults are...  I know many who stay out of competitions (myself included) or shows, because the fees are so darn high.


I, like you, thought I would never compete, but I do now because I've run out of tests more or less. I was working hard on silver moves, but with the addition of the new spirals unless I get surgery on my hip, there is no way I can do them.  (Even with the surgery it's a gamble.)  I am trying for Bronze, but my loop may hold me back.  Once I finish Bronze, I'm done- competitions are all I have left to strive for.  I don't practice well without a goal.  I don't care if I win, I don't want to embarass myself.

However, Bronze opens the possibility of Adult Nationals.  If I pass it now- I could still go in 20 years (unless they change the minimum qualifying).  If I'm having this hard of a time passing it now, it isn't going to get better- not with my extensive injury history.  I don't give a darn about winning, I just want to be allowed to play.  If they let me skate Pre-bronze there, then I'd stay PB.  It's too fun of an event to not try to get into it.


Once I pass the test, we'll change my program to better suit the level.  But I don't want to change it for one month and one day before a test session.   Changing the program would mean I have to take out my best element (scratch spin) and replace it with one I've barely mastered (camel, because I only do an attitude spin, not a layback, so it's still upright. actually, I think a layback is considered an upright spin...)  I can't take out my backspin, because then I'd have to redo the entrance.  Too confusing to muscle memory.

Offline sarahspins

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Re: Bronze Program spins?
« Reply #11 on: December 06, 2011, 04:27:37 PM »
with the addition of the new spirals unless I get surgery on my hip, there is no way I can do them.

Did you see my comment on another thread that I'm banking on them changing the rules again before I'm ready to test them :P  I was saying it half in jest, but I wouldn't be shocked if they did change it again because so many people are unhappy with it - and since this last change was preceded by changes just one year before, I can't say I'd be surprised.

I really figure that they will, but the way I see it, there's no STRESS on me to ever test them either.  If I did choose to compete (at where I am today) I'd be perfectly content to skate up to Silver and I only need bronze for that.  I can even skate silver with an axel if I were to get that jump back, so there is basically no pressure for me to test silver moves or FS unless I had doubles I wanted to complete with (in Gold).  Or I just really really wanted the patch(es).

It's actually kind of funny because I keep having to remind my coach that my bronze FS program is just a test program, and we don't have to "show off" too much - I don't want to make it so hard that I'm intimidated by it, and she just looks at all the things I can do and wants to push me harder than I am comfortable with.  I told her that once I pass my test she can make it as hard as she wants it to be and I won't complain, but until then I need it to be simpler!

Offline MadMac

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Re: Bronze Program spins?
« Reply #12 on: December 06, 2011, 05:00:38 PM »
I feel your pain, Skittl. Sometimes the rulebook can be so detailed, yet so vague.
My interpretation of the rulebook is that whether spinning forward or backward, the position is what defines the character of the spin. However, Bronze-level skaters technically do not yet do a camel position spin. (Camel is on Silver) So how are they expected to include 3 spins each of a different character? I suggest you email the chief referee of the competition for clarification. I've done this several times and the referee is usually glad to explain.

Offline sk8lady

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Re: Bronze Program spins?
« Reply #13 on: December 06, 2011, 07:34:20 PM »
On the east coast, a low-level USFSA test costs around $45-60. A USFSA Competition costs around the same. 

Not sure where you are on the east coast, but I'm on the east coast and cost for the first event in competition is $80. Test session is up to about $45 (and that was Silver Moves at Lake Placid). At my home club, there is usually only one test session a year that I can attend--so when I took my Bronze freestyle, I did not feel as ready as I would have liked but did not want to wait till the following year to test since I was feeling as though I was extremely stagnant.

Having said that, if I were the OP, I would cut my music and compete in Pre-Bronze rather than skating up and having my elements not really fit the competition level.

Offline Skittl1321

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Re: Bronze Program spins?
« Reply #14 on: December 06, 2011, 08:36:12 PM »
Having said that, if I were the OP, I would cut my music and compete in Pre-Bronze rather than skating up and having my elements not really fit the competition level.

I have a pre-bronze cut of my music, and a completely seperate program for it (with elements I'm good at, NOT a loop or a backspin)- but the competition is the day before the test.  It doesn't seem like a good idea.

I just realized the competition the month before the test is state games, which just has "adult" as the category- I'm not bothering with that.  The Gold skaters will win....duh.

Offline fsk8r

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Re: Bronze Program spins?
« Reply #15 on: December 07, 2011, 04:07:38 AM »
I have a pre-bronze cut of my music, and a completely seperate program for it (with elements I'm good at, NOT a loop or a backspin)- but the competition is the day before the test.  It doesn't seem like a good idea.

I just realized the competition the month before the test is state games, which just has "adult" as the category- I'm not bothering with that.  The Gold skaters will win....duh.

I was going to suggest using the competition as preparation for the test. I've competed with a highly uncompetitive program as it was choreographed for test. The idea was to get the benefit of practicing handling the nerves. You can't simulate those in lessons. It was a way of focussing me and the coach on what really needs to be fixed before the test. I wasn't meant to care about the placement at this competition but only on how I skated (that's a lot easier said than done).
Regardless of how the elements fit for the requirements, the skating on empty ice with people watching you part is beneficial for your test preparation.

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Re: Bronze Program spins?
« Reply #16 on: December 07, 2011, 08:19:33 AM »
I definately agree that the kid skaters won't test a level until they can do everything from the next one up, in order to be competitive. I don't know many adults who test, and since adult competitions in the UK don't require test passes (I think pre-bronze you have to be below Level 5... I guess for skaters who tested when they were younger to a higher level than their current ability), its not so important.

As in the US, people can test higher on their field moves (MitF) without it affecting their competition level. Also, at the highest levels (8, 9 and 10), if you're under a certain age you can skate in the level below, which would match their comeptitive level better (novice, junior or senior). A girl I know is under 15 so even though she's passed level 9, she competes at level 8 as she can use the same program she has for novice ijs competitions.

I have a massive amount of work before I can test anything other than field moves, but when I can do the test, i will take it. If I was competiting in the mainstream track, i could probably never take level 1, because i couldn't compete at that level. But as an adult I can take it and still compete at whatever level I want.

Regarding your original question, I'm not sure, but you could always swap an upright for a camel or something without needing to change the layout of your program.

Offline Skittl1321

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Re: Bronze Program spins?
« Reply #17 on: December 07, 2011, 08:48:35 AM »
Regarding your original question, I'm not sure, but you could always swap an upright for a camel or something without needing to change the layout of your program.
Assuming I could do a camel or something....
My only other spin is an attitude spin, and that is also an upright spin.    I can sometimes do a combo spin, but it's pretty awful. 

I'm just wondering, if these other spins are required to compete at the level, why the test doesn't minimally prepare you to compete at the level.  I know it won't prepare you for the maximum that others are doing (you can do 3 combos, including a 3 jump combo, but only 1 combo is on the test, for example- I'm fine with that), but it should include at least the basic elements required to compete.  If two upright spins aren't allowed, there should be something else on the test...

Offline PinkLaces

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Re: Bronze Program spins?
« Reply #18 on: December 07, 2011, 09:05:47 AM »
The first time I competed at Bronze I only had 2 spins - sit spin and a scratch spin.  It's not a requirement that you do 3 spins but a limitation.  I have done Bronze competition programs with 1) sit spin 2)camel-backspin and 3) forward scratch spin.  I have also done a Bronze competition program with 1)back sit-forward sit 2) camel-back spin and 3) scratch spin.  At the time in my area, skaters usually only got about 2-3 revs on each spin position.  Instead of doing skills well, skaters seemed to be rewarded in their placements for attempting harder skills.

So I think it would be entirely possible to use a test program without changing the spins - sit spin, scratch spin, and back spin.  Most skaters here do a camel at Bronze, but not well - 2 revs. 

Offline Skittl1321

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Re: Bronze Program spins?
« Reply #19 on: December 07, 2011, 09:14:22 AM »
Yeah- the last competition I went to (I skated Pre-bronze) I asked my coach to stay to watch the Bronze skaters.  He said he knew I would do fine at the level, but said that he wouldn't let me go out there with bad elements, even if everyone else was doing them (poorly).

So apparently bad camels at bronze are an epidemic.

Good point about being allowed to JUST do sit spin and scratch spin.  So I guess that would be an option for OTHER competitions.  I think I'm going with the "don't worry about the rules, just skate the program" for this one.

Tried a back sit for the first time yesterday- hahahaha.  My regular sit isn't very low, but you can tell I'm trying to sit.  I'm not sure you can tell on the back sit...  I don't have the strength in the leg to get the position (which is the problem with my loop- my left leg is weak).  I've actually started working on loops in physical therapy.  She thinks anything that will help me get muscle tone in the left leg (as in, normal muscle tone, not athletic tone.  I have absurdly low muscle tone in my left leg- it is visibly different in size from the right), and it's close enough to the exercises she was going to prescribe...   

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Re: Bronze Program spins?
« Reply #20 on: December 07, 2011, 11:24:29 AM »
Will you be penalised for having two spins in an upright position? Or will they just not count one? If it's the latter and you don't have a spin you're comfortable swapping it for, then just skate your test program. If you will be penalised, then it might be better to do a bad camel.

Offline irenar5

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Re: Bronze Program spins?
« Reply #21 on: December 07, 2011, 02:30:18 PM »
I think you should stick with the strongest elements and go for the GOE.  At this point it sounds like it is too late to rework anything, plus getting good at camel is not a month-long job (ask me how I know ;-)   Competition would be a great run-through of your program- skill wise and nerve-wise.  Good luck and have fun! 

Offline FigureSpins

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Re: Bronze Program spins?
« Reply #22 on: December 07, 2011, 02:31:31 PM »
There's GOE under 6.0?
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Offline Skittl1321

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Re: Bronze Program spins?
« Reply #23 on: December 07, 2011, 02:32:58 PM »
I know people say IJS is confusing- but 6.0 is a HUGE mystery to me.  I don't understand the scoring at all.  It's just ordinals of X was better than Y, and that is completely subjective, unless there is a huge gap in ability.  But where do the deductions come into play (for example, doing 2 upright spins)- is it better to do something hard poorly, or do something easy well?

All these things are quantified in IJS!

Offline irenar5

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Re: Bronze Program spins?
« Reply #24 on: December 07, 2011, 02:33:24 PM »
I meant go for the pretty factor (my coach and I call if GOE, even though it is not quantified)