Identifying Passing Standards at Test Sessions

[FigureSpins]

*mod note: topic split from test session discussion*

I am getting pretty good at predicting who is going to pass and who will get a retry, too.

I don't know if I'm good at that or not.  When I observe test sessions, I don't know the proper way to find out who did/didn't pass.  Not wanting to be indiscreet, I usually wimp out and just take notes, then ask someone in the know later in the week.  I would never ask a skater at the session, just in case they received a "restest" score.  Don't want to upset anyone.

Still, I'd like to get more timely feedback so I can tell if my judgement is on the mark or not.  Is it appropriate to ask someone during the test session (not a judge, of course) if so-and-so passed?  


IMO, skaters should go and watch next-level tests before they have to take the test themselves, so that they know what to expect and what is expected of them.  

[fsk8r]

I don't know if I'm good at that or not.  When I observe test sessions, I don't know the proper way to find out who did/didn't pass.  Not wanting to be indiscreet, I usually wimp out and just take notes, then ask someone in the know later in the week.  I would never ask a skater at the session, just in case they received a "restest" score.  Don't want to upset anyone.

In the UK the judges shake your hands when you pass. So everyone watching can then clap and congratulate the skater. It's a small gesture but does mean someone watching can tell whether what they've just seen is passing standard or not and it's not so large a gesture that those being asked to retest are embarassed.

[MadMac]

To find out about passes and retrys you can always befriend the volunteer who is picking up the scoring sheets from the judges and distributing them to the skaters/coaches. Let this volunteer know beforehand, which tests you are especially interested in knowing about and why you want to know. In my experience they will usually be willing to share some results with you discreetly out of hearing-range of the skater. Or you could always volunteer to help at the test session and get yourself into that position to be able to peek at all the results.

[Sk8tmum]

To find out about passes and retrys you can always befriend the volunteer who is picking up the scoring sheets from the judges and distributing them to the skaters/coaches. Let this volunteer know beforehand, which tests you are especially interested in knowing about and why you want to know. In my experience they will usually be willing to share some results with you discreetly out of hearing-range of the skater. Or you could always volunteer to help at the test session and get yourself into that position to be able to peek at all the results.

You would be in a huge amount of trouble if you attempted this in our region; both the judges and the test chair would be livid.  The results are kept confidential until recorded, and then given to the coach so that the coach can discuss the results with the skater appropriately.

[MadMac]

Obviously this is going to happen AFTER the coach & skater have received the test papers, and it would be verbal only.  "Yes, skater 1 passed every move. Skater 3's power circles didn't pass. Etc." No big conspiracy meant here.
You're correct, I would never expect to see the actual test papers unless the coach/skater themselves offered to share.

[FigureSpins]

To me, the suggested "get the inside scoop" approach would be uncomfortable - especially if you're getting the test results reported (verbally) in detail.  I wouldn't want to do that.  Volunteering for self-serving reasons wouldn't go over very well.  (Says the Club volunteer coordinator.)

I think that, when a club like ours has no "club ice" other than test sessions, the culture is different than a more unified club where everyone's friendly. 

[Sk8tmum]

To me, the suggested "get the inside scoop" approach would be uncomfortable - especially if you're getting the test results reported (verbally) in detail.  I wouldn't want to do that.  Volunteering for self-serving reasons wouldn't go over very well.  (Says the Club volunteer coordinator.)

I think that, when a club like ours has no "club ice" other than test sessions, the culture is different than a more unified club where everyone's friendly. 

We're a "unified" club and it's definitely not friendly on test days! Plus, frankly, some of the nasty-types do like to find out who passed or didn't for spiteful reasons (and that includes moms, coaches and skaters).  Every club has a culture; and depending on it, test days can be supportive or - unpleasant.

Me, I would be seriously annoyed if someone was telling ANYONE about my kid's test results; if I want to share, I will, and if someone wants to tell me about their kid's results, then, I'm happy to listen.  I'm actually in a position where I do often know how kids do, but, I figure that it's confidential to the skater, and I respect that.

It's awful enough for a kid to get a retry, let alone to have someone checking to see if it was a "real way off the mark" retry or a "just about passed" retry.

[FigureSpins]

It sounds like MadMac's club is different if this is common-place.  It just wouldn't fly at my current Club, but I have belonged to ones in the past where friendliness was the norm, even at competitions and tests.  I was always touched by how many of the younger skaters stuck around to cheer on their adult club-mates at competitions.  The adults returned the favor, but the level of consideration was much, much higher than today.  There's a difference between "myob/don't bother me" and "how'd you do?"

The most valid reason to announce test results is to help them prepare themselves/students for future tests.  Given our society's concern for "test anxiety," it just doesn't happen here.  If it could be done anonymously, that would be great, but you have to watch the performance to see why a test passed or not so it's personal. 

It would really help lower-level coaches, although I guess the answer is to ally yourself with a more senior coach and follow his/her students through testing.  That's not an option for everyone, though.  A coach or skater might not want a stranger around on a stressful test day, kwim?

I have an idea though: the ISI does mock-judging trials during their (free) annual Fall seminars.  Maybe the PSA or USFSA could do a webinar to standardize and communicate expectations.

[aussieskater]

Me, I would be seriously annoyed if someone was telling ANYONE about my kid's test results; if I want to share, I will, and if someone wants to tell me about their kid's results, then, I'm happy to listen.  I'm actually in a position where I do often know how kids do, but, I figure that it's confidential to the skater, and I respect that.

It's awful enough for a kid to get a retry, let alone to have someone checking to see if it was a "real way off the mark" retry or a "just about passed" retry.

Sk8mum, I hear what you're saying (and agree wtih you!), but how does a person learn what's passable and what's not without knowing what passed and what didn't, and if it didn't whether it was "way off" or "just short"?

It's a sticky problem.

[Schmeck]

A coach should know what is passable and not, and get that across to a parent and skater. USFSA used to have lots of seminars/online resources for coaches.   If you are officially studying to become a judge, then I think there are also a lot of seminars to go to and guidelines given out, and practice testing.

Wanting to be able to judge/tell a passing element from a nonpassing one is great, but doing so by getting access to others' test results is a huge taboo in my area.  Results are kept confidential, and are handed out many minutes after the skater gets off the ice.  The test chair has to copy and record the results first, and get the results to the coaches, all while continuing to make sure the testing session progresses.   

[FigureSpins]

A coach should know what is passable and not, and get that across to a parent and skater. USFSA used to have lots of seminars/online resources for coaches.   

That's what we're talking about: how do coaches learn what is passable and what is not? 

Perhaps that was an effort that was made in your area back in the day when you were involved in skating, but there hasn't been an effort made to communicate passing standards other than the new moves which were introduced last year.  Moreover, many coaches have found that statements made during those New Moves training sessions didn't match the judging standards in different areas, especially on the figure-based patterns.  In some cases, that misinformation earned the skater a retest.  While the PSA seminars will often include such topics as judging, it isn't always on the agenda, or only high-level tests are covered, they're expensive, and often involve travel.  More focus has been on IJS features and downgrades than on what the passing standard is for the Prelim power crossovers.

As for "online resources," I've never seen anything online from the USFSA that outlined test standards for coaches.  The PSA DVDs and books are great resources, but the USFSA online videos were blasted for not showing passing standards, even the new videos.  I can't even link them in a post here without someone on the board bringing that point up and saying that the videos are wrong.  Perhaps you're thinking of the ISI or something local?  The ISI does do judging reviews each Fall.

When a coach is just starting out with their first test candidates, or has moved to a new area, the best way to identify the standards is to take the time to watch test sessions, talk to other coaches and figure out what the judges are looking for. 

Without knowing the outcome of a viewed test on a timely basis, it's a little fuzzy to figure out what was good and what was bad.

[Schmeck]

USFSA has really dropped the ball on this then - there were videos, packets, all kinds of stuff available a while ago.  That's before the change in moves though.  I can try to contact some of Icy's old coaches and see if they have any of the old stuff still, and at least get some titles/publisher/photocopies for you.  They knew I was interested in trial judging back then, and showed me some of the stuff they had.

OK - now I think I remember - maybe it was stuff they gave out to people wanting to trial judge?

[blue111moon]

The PSA seminars I've attended have had sections on passing standards.  And the USFS judges' seminars are generally open to coaches, skaters and parents.

[FigureSpins]

Just to point out that Schmeck said the USFSA was diligent in offering online and in person seminars.  Other than the excellent Basic Skills instructor seminars, I haven't seen evidence of that. 

Sometimes the PSA seminars cover testing standards, but not always.  Typically (ime), the focus is on higher-level/more difficult patterns/tests, not the lower-level Moves.  It may very well be that higher-level coaches have asked for specific topics, but more often, the seminar focus is on IJS calls and competition judging.

USFSA judges' seminars could be great if you have the time and money to travel to the event and the agenda is relevant.  The only current ones on the USFSA schedule are in Kalamazoo, MI (Synchro) and San Jose, CA during Nat's, although Utah and California have hosted several over the past two years.  The San Jose event is focused on Novice and Junior competition programs, which is understandable given the venue.  ($75 and you get a day pass for the competition!)  Still, that's not necessarily the test standards in your own area, although I applaud the effort to eliminate variations in judging from region to region.

It's a question of timing: seminars were readily available leading up to the New Moves implementation, but the only ones I've seen since then have been focused on synchro or pairs, not Moves.  I attended at least four different seminars prior to 9/2010 and every one covered the changes for the Moves, but not the patterns that already existed.  In fairness, the seminar presenters were very good at covering patterns if requested, but there simply wasn't enough time to review all test patterns.

You're a coach, you just moved to a new state and don't have anyone to mentor you.  9/2010 was over a year ago and relevant seminars are few and far between.  Do you:

. assume that the test standards are absolute the same from state to state,
. tell your students to wait until after the next relevant PSA or USFS Judge's event, or
. observe test sessions, discreetly inquire about results, and open a dialogue with other coaches to understand?

[MadMac]

Thank you, FigureSpins. Yes, test sessions need to be a learning/training opportunity for coaches and judges.
We're not interested in embarrassing the skater or butting into their business, just figuring out what the passing standard is.

[FigureSpins]

Exactly.  Too many coaches scratch their heads after a retest result and wonder "Well, what are the judges looking for?" 

[Skittl1321]

I'm really uncomfortable with the thought of a volunteer telling someone what my test sheets said!  I have no problem with them saying "she passed the test", because that goes on the club website, but "she got a retry on X move" I think violates the privacy the volunteers are supposed to respect when delivering the sheets (we are told not to look at them at all!)

But there needs to be more transparency over what is passing standard- because it isn't made clear by USFS.  Not to skaters, not to coaches.

(ETA: I don't care if a coach asks my coach, as my coach can decide if the information should be shared, but asking the runner is out of bounds IMO)

[MimiG]

Having somewhat recently moved to the U.S. and still being newish to USFSA testing, I've attended nearly every local seminar I can, and I agree with FigureSpins, all of it has been interesting and generally useful, but none has given me the local passing standards for the tests my students are taking. What I've done instead is:

- poured over YouTube test videos for a general idea (usually they post if they've passed or not)
- watched local test sessions to see what's being put out for test and what gets reskated and so on.
- talked to coaches I've become friendly with who have students on the same level about how they think their student is coming along, when they think they'll test, etc.
- taken a few lessons with an experienced local coach on MITF patterns and talked through what the judges are expecting to see (and also got a wealth of invaluable teaching tips!)

But I was very nervous for the first test I put out, even though I was sure she was more than ready.

[FigureSpins]

I brought this up because I was in the situation a few years ago myself.  When I moved here, I didn't know a soul.  Other coaches were pretty set in their friendships, team coaching arrangements, and knowledge of the judges.  I'm always amazed that other coaches can discuss judges by name and know what that particular person is looking for on a given test.  As an outsider (and a yankee,) it was like pulling teeth to get any feedback.  There was no one I could turn to and ask for advice about where my students needed to be in order to test.  So, I became a bench-warmer and took notes, then made discreet inquiries.

Since then, I am blessed to have a wonderful fellow coach who shares her knowledge and results.  She really goes out of her way to help me, discussing different training drills and even giving me feedback about my students.  Yet, even she finds some test results surprising. 

I think it's odd that skaters would begrudge coaches doing research.  Other skaters and parents who are just looking for grapevine material, absolutely not appropriate.  But among coaches and judges, it should be a professional discussion, not a henfest.  Once, a very-nervous skater got a spiral-pattern reskate during a test whle I was observing.  I had noticed her free leg height was low on the first runthrough, so I assumed they gave her a second chance to raise it up, which she did.  What I learned later was that the judge noticed toe-pushing and too many entry strokes as well.  The kid passed on the second try, but wow - what a learning experience I would have missed if I hadn't casually asked the coach how the skater did on her test.

The more I think about it, the more I'd like to see some online video review/critique for each pattern and test, to identify the passing standards.  That would be worth the cost of a webinar.

MimiG - the YouTube tests are a great suggestion.  We'd just have to make note of where the test is being given because there are variations.  I've noticed it mostly on the "in betweens" of moves patterns - some regions have the skaters perform the entire test from one pattern's end to the next pattern's start, others have them return to the judge's area to wait.  Also, the start/end patterns are optional, but you'll see some standards at various rinks in a particular area, which I think is the influence of observation and feedback or a high-level coach providing guidance.

[aussieskater]

I'm really uncomfortable with the thought of a volunteer telling someone what my test sheets said!  I have no problem with them saying "she passed the test", because that goes on the club website, but "she got a retry on X move" I think violates the privacy the volunteers are supposed to respect when delivering the sheets (we are told not to look at them at all!)

But there needs to be more transparency over what is passing standard- because it isn't made clear by USFS.  Not to skaters, not to coaches.

(ETA: I don't care if a coach asks my coach, as my coach can decide if the information should be shared, but asking the runner is out of bounds IMO)

Agree with everything you said, skittl.

[Sk8tmum]

Okay, I'm somewhat confused, maybe because I'm Canadian, as to why you don't know why a test got a retry.  Our judges make comments - they are required to - on the test sheet stating "why" something wasn't passable. Sure, it's sometimes sketchy, but, the coach and the skater knows that it's because, say, loop 4 and 5 weren't executed as loops, or because the arabesque wasn't held long enough... for freeskate tests, the judges are rinkside with skater and coach, and speak directly to the skater.  Do your judges not put comments on the sheets - ?

In terms of coach knowledge. Well, I pay a coach who specializes in our "moves in the field" more than the average amount because she has years of experience in this field, and is an expert.  Same way our dance coach is, so, they know what is passable (and they admit openly that sometimes a retry happens for no apparent reason, as evaluators are human).  However, I will also say that I have never seen a coach who doesn't mentor and work with other coaches, and I'd never have one as part of my coaching team, as that speaks volumes about their basic attitude and philosophy in regards to the sport. My kid is going to be qualifying as a coach; my other kid is a judge/evaluator. They have had more collective institutional knowledge dumped on their heads than I could ever expect - and that includes people who have no affiliaton with them, our club, or even our region ... Skate Canada runs the seminars, but, the people who "run the sport" all work together, maybe out of survival instincts  One of the most senior officials in all of Canada grabbed my teenage daughter and dragged her over to watch a skater's runthrough, and talked her through every step of the performance, just so that she would be able to improve her ability to judge ...

Coaches should and do share knowledge and understanding, as that is part of being professionals ... my objection is to the parents and skaters who like to do the "nyah nyah" on test days when a kid doesn't pass ... and I've seen a lot of them ... sadly.

[techskater]

They do write comments on the test, but sometimes they are in a hurry to fill out the form because there's a time crunch and the comment looks more like "blewerfwvf34t" than "needs more power".  Also, sometimes a test that may have passed at the last test session doesn't pass on this particular one.  That can be due to the judging panel being different in some cases (while the judges are supposed to have the same focii, some judges are a stickler for speed, others extension, and still others edge quality that they have a set criteria a little higher than their counterparts on) and in others the judges could be having a bad day (if say the first group of tests they see are particularly bad, it can create a neative atmosphere for the judges and they may want to see something really stellar to pass it). 

[isakswings]

Thank you, FigureSpins. Yes, test sessions need to be a learning/training opportunity for coaches and judges.
We're not interested in embarrassing the skater or butting into their business, just figuring out what the passing standard is.

As a parent, I am very interested in this also. Not so much because I want to try and correct my skater, but because I find it helpful to be able to recognize what looks good and what doesn't look good. I trust my daughter's coach, but I also find it helpful to be informed of what is passible and what is not. Being the test chair will help me TONS in this area. Generally speaking, the only time I watch skaters test has been when my daughter is testing. Now that I am the test chair, I not only have the chance to watch other skaters test but I can also see the comments of the judges. I DO NOT share those comments with anyone else NOR would I ever share scores. BUT I have read comments and it is so helpful to know what the judges want to see at various levels.

I think if a coach wants to learn about passing standards, they can learn a lot just by helping at a test session. I am obviously not a coach but I really am learning a lot just by being the test chair.

[aussieskater]

As a parent, I am very interested in this also. Not so much because I want to try and correct my skater, but because I find it helpful to be able to recognize what looks good and what doesn't look good. I trust my daughter's coach, but I also find it helpful to be informed of what is passible and what is not.

This.  As a skater, I have to take responsibility for learning myself about competition requirements (elements required, elements prohibited etc) and test standards (passing or not).  The coach can only do so much.

Being the test chair will help me TONS in this area. Generally speaking, the only time I watch skaters test has been when my dughter is testing. Now that I am the test chair, I not only have the chance to watch other skaters test but I can also see the comments of the judges. I DO NOT share those comments with anyone else NOR would I ever share scores. BUT I have read comments and it is so helpful to know what the judges want to see at various levels.

Iakswings' experience is actually a classic example of something I've had a bit of a gripe with for some time:  only some people are "in the know" re what judges want to see at various levels.  Coaches are obviously "in the know" - at least you'd hope they are! - but Isakswings as a parent knows because - and only because - she's the test chair.  Other parents are not so privileged.  IMO this is not right.  This is in no way meant as a criticism of Isakswings at all - her example was just appropriate to the point I'm trying to make.

Unfortunately, I don't have an easy solution to the problem!

[isakswings]

Iakswings' experience is actually a classic example of something I've had a bit of a gripe with for some time:  only some people are "in the know" re what judges want to see at various levels.  Coaches are obviously "in the know" - at least you'd hope they are! - but Isakswings as a parent knows because - and only because - she's the test chair.  Other parents are not so privileged.  IMO this is not right.  This is in no way meant as a criticism of Isakswings at all - her example was just appropriate to the point I'm trying to make.

Unfortunately, I don't have an easy solution to the problem!

I wonder if there is a way parents, skaters and whomever else can be more "in the know". Honestly, UNTIL I was the test chair, I never considered trying to find out more. I trusted my daughter's coach and went from there. We also have the privledge of having 3 judges in our club. All 3 judges are very open to questions and/or offering critiques. I STILL trust her coach but after running my second session, I have learned more about testing then I ever could by being JUST a spectator and parent. I would suggest trying to talk to a judge. If at all possible, arrange for a critique through your club. I am quite certain there are other skaters who are interested in what is passable and what is not. One other thing that could be done is to hold a Q/A session with a judge or two. Our club did that just before Winter Games and it was very helpful! We had 2-3 judges there and we(parents mostly) came with a list of questions and the judges asnwered them to the best of their ability. This was about competition expectations as well as testing expectations. Again, we are at an advantage because we have judges in our own club, but I thought I would toss the idea out there. Maybe if there is enough interest, you could set something like this up the week of the next test session. Perhaps the test chair could help arrange it? I know judges volunteer their time so it would definately have to be something the judge would want to do. I honestly think by helping parents, skaters and coaches gain a better understanding of what is expected, it might help skaters come better prepared. Just a thought. Here's hoping my post made SOME kind of sense! I'm a tad tired.