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Offline isakswings

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Question for judges...
« on: November 03, 2011, 10:15:44 AM »
What are you looking for in a skater? Example: At dd's last competition, she did not skate as well as she would have liked to have done. She fell on both axels and then on her lutz in her combo jump. The first 30 seconds of the program was beautiful and the inbetween the falls, dd kept her speed and pushed on through. Other then the falls, she looked good(spins, footwork, ect). She also ended her program on time. There were 7 skaters in her group and after 3 falls, we all figured she would place 7th. Much to our surprise, she placed 6th. Further more, she received 2 5's. 2 6's and a 7! So, what would make a judge place a skater who fell 3 times above a skater who didn't fall at all? We were surprised that she received 2 5's. Just curious how this works.

Thanks!

Offline Sk8tmum

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Re: Question for judges...
« Reply #1 on: November 03, 2011, 10:22:12 AM »
I'm not a judge, but my DD is.  Simply, it's not all about the jumps OR the number of falls.  It is a compilation of all of the elements: spins, footwork, presentation, skating skills and speed, execution of elements.  If Skater A falls on 3 jumps, but, has excellent spins, great footwork, and, the jumps that were executed (whether falls or not) - are executed very well with speed, ice coverage, checkout, Skater A will be placed over Skater B who went clean but skated cautiously, had weaker spins, weaker elements, etc. 

Also, one skater is the reference skater - the first one. All following are ranked above or below that reference skater ... it can be an art form to do. 

This is why I don't like OBO. It's too hard for skaters to be able to understand their placements.

Offline isakswings

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Re: Question for judges...
« Reply #2 on: November 03, 2011, 10:56:13 AM »
sk8mum... thanks. That makes sense. She DID get her rotation in, she just did not land those 3 jumps. She landed the 1st jump in the combo, then missed the lutz. Everything else, looked good. I guess we were just baffled by the ordinals. I DO wish there were explanations in 6.0. IJS takes forever to score, but I like that you can see exactly why I judge scored you a certain way. Thanks again!


Offline hopskipjump

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Re: Question for judges...
« Reply #3 on: November 03, 2011, 11:04:40 AM »
That is a good question.  Dd had a solid skate but came in last.  All the other girls fell or stumbled (dd did not).  But all the other girls had 2 axels (dd just had one) and one of them was part of a set of jumps (1-2 additional jumps).  The girl who came in first had a sit change sit and no other spins and was way off of her music. 

It is confusing for a non skating parent to understand all the parts of skating. 

For dd it was important for her to know she did one of her best tries - the judging/placing is not important - what is important is continual progress.  Still it makes you wonder - should a program be difficult for a skater in the beginning for them to grow into during the season or "safe"?

Offline icedancer

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Re: Question for judges...
« Reply #4 on: November 03, 2011, 11:08:39 AM »
I'm not a judge, but my DD is.  Simply, it's not all about the jumps OR the number of falls.  It is a compilation of all of the elements: spins, footwork, presentation, skating skills and speed, execution of elements.  If Skater A falls on 3 jumps, but, has excellent spins, great footwork, and, the jumps that were executed (whether falls or not) - are executed very well with speed, ice coverage, checkout, Skater A will be placed over Skater B who went clean but skated cautiously, had weaker spins, weaker elements, etc. 

Also, one skater is the reference skater - the first one. All following are ranked above or below that reference skater ... it can be an art form to do. 

This is why I don't like OBO. It's too hard for skaters to be able to understand their placements.

I am a judge and I will say that sk8tmum is exactly right - the skaters are ranked in 6.0 and it isn't all about the jumps and spins - the overall skating can bring a skater up in many judges eyes - I will often notice the skater that has nice arms, posture and flow and maybe place them higher than a skater that kind of nails most of the jumps/spins but doesn't understand what an edge is, etc.

People complain about IJS not being as exciting as the 6.0 system but as a judge it is a LOT easier as you don't have to keep track of all of the skaters in the group and you can give the same component scores to skaters that have equal abilities in terms of components and let the technical sort it out, etc.
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Offline hopskipjump

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Re: Question for judges...
« Reply #5 on: November 03, 2011, 11:13:08 AM »
I am amazed anyone can judge.  It looks really difficult.  What I love though was one judge at dd's test.  He came over and talked to all the girls about what he liked and didn't like and used examples and humor.  It was a great experience.  Of course that can't really happen at a comp because they are judging all day long.

Offline icedancer

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Re: Question for judges...
« Reply #6 on: November 03, 2011, 11:42:51 AM »
I am amazed anyone can judge.  It looks really difficult.  What I love though was one judge at dd's test.  He came over and talked to all the girls about what he liked and didn't like and used examples and humor.  It was a great experience.  Of course that can't really happen at a comp because they are judging all day long.

Thank you.  It IS really difficult!!  I would ask anyone who wonders what it would be like to judge to practice judge one day (ask your test or competition chair about this and you may even get to watch the test/competition from the same viewpoint on the side of the ice where the judges are) and see what it is like to have to rank the skaters or to decide whether a test is passing level or not.

Judging is hard but I have to say that I have learned more about skating than I ever thought I would from judging!
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Offline Isk8NYC

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Re: Question for judges...
« Reply #7 on: November 03, 2011, 11:58:21 AM »
I am, without a doubt, the very worst judge in the world.  I get so caught up in the music, the costume, their skating style that I forgot to watch the elements.  Plus, I can't remember the first skater after the third one has gone, so I can't revise my scores well.  I got in trouble for using two decimal places one - the scorer was pissed that she needed a calculator to add the scores!

I let my ISI Judging credentials expire because I'm really useless and there aren't any ISI competitions around here.
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Offline isakswings

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Re: Question for judges...
« Reply #8 on: November 03, 2011, 12:18:09 PM »
For dd it was important for her to know she did one of her best tries - the judging/placing is not important - what is important is continual progress.  Still it makes you wonder - should a program be difficult for a skater in the beginning for them to grow into during the season or "safe"?

I think that is the best way to go into any competition. They need to look at the big picture and realize that in the end, it should be about themselves not about where they place. To me, placement it a bonus. Of coarse we want our child to do well, but we also want our children to learn that they don't always have to "win" to win. :) Sometimes winning is finishing your program without falling or successfully completing an element that used to be really hard.  As far as a skater's program, I think it should progress as the season moves forward. I think as a skater grows in the level, his/her elements should show that growth.

Offline Sk8tmum

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Re: Question for judges...
« Reply #9 on: November 03, 2011, 06:51:49 PM »
Thank you.  It IS really difficult!!  I would ask anyone who wonders what it would be like to judge to practice judge one day (ask your test or competition chair about this and you may even get to watch the test/competition from the same viewpoint on the side of the ice where the judges are) and see what it is like to have to rank the skaters or to decide whether a test is passing level or not.

Judging is hard but I have to say that I have learned more about skating than I ever thought I would from judging!

My DD came out after a test day and looked at me and told me that she FINALLY understood why she had failed that stupid Fiesta Tango 6 times :)  Being the evaluator gave her a whole new perspective ... :)

Offline isakswings

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Re: Question for judges...
« Reply #10 on: November 05, 2011, 03:42:32 PM »
My DD came out after a test day and looked at me and told me that she FINALLY understood why she had failed that stupid Fiesta Tango 6 times :)  Being the evaluator gave her a whole new perspective ... :)

It is great that your daughter gets to have the experience of judging. I am sure it gives her a great prospective. :0)

Offline Sk8tmum

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Re: Question for judges...
« Reply #11 on: November 05, 2011, 06:11:01 PM »
It is great that your daughter gets to have the experience of judging. I am sure it gives her a great prospective. :0)

It's actually a very rigorous process in Canada to become a judge and evaluator, and it requires minimum skating qualifications, clinics, supervised evaluations, trial judging and evaluating, mentored sessions ... we are desperately short of judges and evaluators. Not sure what it's like in the US.

Offline Schmeck

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Re: Question for judges...
« Reply #12 on: November 05, 2011, 06:40:18 PM »
It's a very exhausting, time consuming, expensive thing to do here in the US.  It can take years to become a judge!  I don't have the most recent judge list, but there are a lot of judges in our area (Greater Boston/New England) while other areas have a few, and probably some shortages/expensive travel concerns.