Should have my blades remounted?

[Sushi]

I started group lessons at a new rink 3 weeks ago and with a new group coach. Yesterday after group lessons the coach asked where I got my skates and blades. The coach told me that moving my blades a little forward would help with stoking and turns.

Skates: new Riedell Gold Medallion 300 purchased off of ebay in March 2010
Blades: new Coronation Aces purchased new off of ebay and mounted at Mennen in NJ in June.

Would that really help?  She said it was up to me but if it will, I'll have to plan a trip to Mennen to get them remounted when they need to get sharpen.

In class she we're working on edges, forward three turns, forwards crossovers alternating with chasse, pivots, two foot spins, forward & backwards crossovers... Most of these things I learned at my old rink but I have no problems with working on them even more. Especially since my three turns aren't great but cw fwrd crossovers are getting better.

[FigureSpins]

Richie at Mennan is a great skate tech - I can't imagine him not mounting them correctly from the start.   
(He fitted me for my first pair of good skates at the original Sky Rink pro shop in Manhattan.)

Do you have room at the front of the sole to move the blade plate forward? 
The plate should not go past the sole of the boot, so if there's no room to move it forward, save yourself a trip.


OT: Richie is the "L" in "C&L Sports" (aka: Corona & Liebenow) 

I just found out that his partner, Al Corona, passed away in 2008.  Skaters used to call him "Uncle Al," even when he wasn't around. 
http://obits.nj.com/obituaries/starledger/obituary.aspx?n=alfred-l-corona&pid=120627935
Truly a loss for NJ skating - he was a great sharpener and blade alignment expert.
May he rest in peace, watching the angels skate on sharp blades.

[Sushi]

Do you have room at the front of the sole to move the blade plate forward?

Yes, there is more room.

[FigureSpins]

Make an appointment with Rich at Mennan to take a look at the mounting.  It doesn't make sense that there's room at the front, but find out why they were mounted that way.  Bring your receipt for the mounting service, if it was done wrong, he'll make good on it.

[sarahspins]

Yes, there is more room.

I can't imagine why they would have been mounted that way unless the blades were too short for the boots?  Usually the blade is lined up with the toe and any extra space ends up at the heel unless the skater requests otherwise for some reason.

[Sushi]

I can't imagine why they would have been mounted that way unless the blades were too short for the boots?  Usually the blade is lined up with the toe and any extra space ends up at the heel unless the skater requests otherwise for some reason.

Rich mounted my blades more to the inside because of pronation. My right side is worst than the left.

Left (click for larger picture)
 

Right

[sarahspins]

Okay, now I am even more confused - were these never temp mounted?

I pronate and my blades are towards the inside, but I found that appropriate changes to the footbed (wedges) did a lot more than moving the blades did.

It seems that even with the placement needed, they could be moved forward quit a bit - the right more than the left, but I can't see any compelling reason that they were mounted so far back to begin with.

[AgnesNitt]

I'm hardly an expert, but those blades look a quarter to a half inch too short.
Here are yours with the gaps at the ends:


Here are ladyavalon's. Her blades may (or may not) be crooked, but see how they fill the whole length of the boot.


Uploaded with ImageShack.us

[sarahspins]

Also, I have to ask, based on your prior posts, is this how these blades were ORIGINALLY mounted (before you began skating?) or was this done to compensate for trouble you were having in the beginning?

[Sushi]

Also, I have to ask, based on your prior posts, is this how these blades were ORIGINALLY mounted (before you began skating?) or was this done to compensate for trouble you were having in the beginning?

Nope, before I had the stock blades, mk21s, with the factory mounting. Then I bought Cor Aces and had them mounted to compensate.

[aussieskater]

Skates: new Riedell Gold Medallion 300 purchased off of ebay in March 2010
Blades: new Coronation Aces purchased new off of ebay and mounted at Mennen in NJ in June.

is this how these blades were ORIGINALLY mounted (before you began skating?) or was this done to compensate for trouble you were having in the beginning?

Nope, before I had the stock blades, mk21s, with the factory mounting. Then I bought Cor Aces and had them mounted to compensate.

Were the MK21's ever mounted on these new Reidell boots?  I can't see any evidence in the photos of any other screw holes (or for that matter of any use of the temp mount holes - I can see what sarahspins noticed).

Also re blade length - compared to my boots, yours are mounted further back (the toe ends of my blade plates are < 1mm behind the toe edge of my boots), but if they were professionally mounted, you should ask your skate pro if they could/should be moved forward.  Just thinking - you said you purchased the boots from ebay - are you sure they are the right size (esp. not too long)? 

[Off topic a bit - looking at ladyavalon's photos, I'd actually wonder if her blades are too long??  On her photos, the right toe end looks like it hangs over, and the left heel looks like it hangs over?  Might just be the angle of the shot though.]

[Sushi]

Were the MK21's ever mounted on these new Reidell boots?  I can't see any evidence in the photos of any other screw holes (or for that matter of any use of the temp mount holes - I can see what sarahspins noticed).

Yes, they were these skates were sold as a boot and blade set. The screw holes from were plugged, in http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6075/6029638871_33c436c139_b.jpg you can see part of the screw hole in the top slotted hole and bottom round hole.

Just thinking - you said you purchased the boots from ebay - are you sure they are the right size (esp. not too long)?  

I'm sure they are the right size.

[aussieskater]

Thanks sushi, I can see the old hole now!  (Need to put on glasses  )

[Query]

I apologize for the delay; hope it isn't too late.

I consulted a boot technician who handles boots for many of the world's best skaters.

He says there no technical reason why blades should be mounted to place the front of the base plate at the boot's toe - it probably make more sense to place the toe pick near to the part of the foot the person mostly jumps off of. E.g., if a person's toes are far back from the front of the boot, the front of the boot is the "wrong" place, in an ideal world.

But if he mounted blades anywhere other than at the toe of the boot, others in the skating community would view it as extremely unprofessional, so he mounts blades where everyone else does, unless requested otherwise.

He says that that figure skating is a very small community, relative to many other sports. So the kind of systematic optimization and testing of equipment that goes into many other athletic activities doesn't happen in skating. So convention rather than systematic optimization is the norm in skating equipment.

Besides, if anyone made expensive equipment to test optimal placement for each athlete, most retailers wouldn't buy it.

This answer is response I have received from master boot makers when I asked about optimization of heel height and the shape of the foot bed, or the weight and construction details of figure skating boots. Many of the master boot makers would love to incorporate hockey innovations, but can't because much of the figure skating community wouldn't buy their boots.

Perhaps the best answer is that if it feels like you would jump and otherwise perform better if the blades are moved, you should move it.

Moving the blade also affects the placement of the "sweet spot" - the place the blade is designed to spin and turn. Sweet spots can be moved, though doing so wastes some metal - but many sharpeners don't even know it is there. As with the toe pick position, convention rather than optimization dictates the position and strength of the sweet spot.

Does this answer make any sense to you?

[Skittl1321]

Here are ladyavalon's. Her blades may (or may not) be crooked, but see how they fill the whole length of the boot.

While I think the OP's blades are too short, it looks like LA's are too long to me.  None of my blades have ever gone tip to heel on the entire boot- they have always gone tip to just a teeny bit before the heel.  The OP's are a teeny bit before the toe AND heel, so I agree with the too short assessment, but the only people I see who have blades as long as LA's are kids who are hoping to use their blades on the next size boot when they grow.

[FigureSpins]

I've had similar discussions with Query's expert advisor and I think Query missed a few subtle points in his essay:

. That expert advocates shorter blades, even when the boot manufacturer recommends longer ones.
. Blades should be mounted so that the front rocker is under the ball /heel rocker is under the heel of the skater's foot.
. Boots should fit properly, with very little extra space.  Once that's done, the blade should be more easily sized.

Several boot manufacturers, Klingbeil included, recommend end-the-end length blades.  In Klingbeil's case, their boot soles are smaller/shorter than the upper, thereby placing the foot more forward in the boot than a different brand of boot.  IMO, the difference is too subtle - look at the boot vs. sole lengths on these images.

Klingbeil:
Jackson Artiste:
Riedell Gold Medallion:


To my eye, the Klingbeil upper doesn't stick out all that much further than the others, but that's their position.  Not that they would give you much of a hard time if you chose a shorter/longer blade.  Query's fitter and Klingbeil don't agree about blade length on that brand of boots.  So, it comes down to personal preference.

Fitters typically recommend 1/4" shorter so that the heel rocker is placed correctly under the heel and the tail of the blade doesn't stick out too far.

As for why the Artistes have end-to-end blades, it's probably because they are sold as a set.  Jackson chose a 9-3/4" blade for that size boot and probably the one smaller/one larger.  (Or maybe they were out of 9.5" blades at the factory that day, lol.)  Jackson's a big believer in "economies of scale," which is why their skates usually come with incredibly long laces.  They buy one length for a whole range of skate sizes.  The same could be true for blades, *chuckle*.


Note that the Gold Medallions were discontinued several years ago.

[Query]

FigureSpins, I'm missing many things. He isn't teaching a comprehensive formal class. If I don't ask the right questions, I don't get the right answers.

Blades should be mounted so that the front rocker is under the ball /heel rocker is under the heel of the skater's foot.

Please clarify. And define "heel rocker".

[FigureSpins]

Hate to say it, but he also contradicts himself.  He insisted that you should never, ever reuse holes when changing blades, even if they're the same make/model and size.  Then he did just that when I bought new, full-priced Gold Seal blades through his shop.  I dunno - I went there because I had alignment issues and the new blades were supposed to resolve them, I would think he would have plugged/remounted from scratch. 

I think you know this already, but okay:

Every blade is curved.

There is a deep curve at the front, behind the toepicks.  This is called the "rocker."  That's where forward three turns and spins happen.

There is another curve towards the back of the blade.  Back three turns are done more under the heel, where this curve exists. 
Not at the very tail - that'll put you on your head, backwards - but under the heel of the skate.

If you stand by the wall (holding on) and "swish" your blades back and forth from toepicks to heel, you can find the front rocker pretty easily - the spot where the toepicks don't scratch and the blade edge doesn't scrape.  As you roll back on the blade, you'll find the "back rocker," where the blade again swings free, although not as much as at the front.  The curve isn't as drastic.  Towards the blade tail, it's pretty flat, so the blade will scrape again.

Skaters with too-long skates struggle with three turns because the forward rocker is under their toes (weak part of the foot) and the blade rocker is at the back of the heel ... too far for them to control.  That's this particular expert's concern about using end-to-end length blades on boots and why he recommends a 1/4" shorter on all boots.  It makes sense, if you think about it, but I'm not sure how to prove/disprove the two disparate theories.

Your expert is the person who called it a "heel rocker" or "rocker under the heel"  I had never heard the term before he used it, so make sure that's what he meant.  It's possible I misunderstood him.

[Query]

Thanks, FigureSpins. No, I didn't know about the rear variation you speak of.

Wilson blades have 2 front sweet spots, and two spin rocker lengths, according to a Wilson web page.

Many sharpeners, including our expert, re-profile blades before selling them. So blades have the profile the sharpener creates, not what the factory creates.

When I proposed adding a second sweet spot to the rear of the blade, ISk8NYC said it hard to land jumps. Maybe she would hate the rear variation?

The person who does most of the sharpening at the Riedell factory store denied the presence of any rocker variation behind the front sweet spot(s).

As Ralph Waldo Emerson said, "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds..."

[Isk8NYC]

Yawn - why would I argue with myself?  I think I'm right in both cases - why don't you ask your expert guide about it?

I think you can see the curvature.  Stand your blade on its edge and voila!  You can rock to the front to find a "sweet spot" and another one under the heel.

I have no idea what you're talking about with Riedell, but I don't put a lot of stock in your opinions and claims anyway.


Edit: I think you're talking about this old thread from the former message board?
http://skating.zachariahs.com/skatingforums-onice/www.skatingforums.com/archive/index.php/t-28070.html
I didn't say anything about your heel rocker idea and jump landings.  Maybe you've mistaken me for someone else?

[Query]

ISk8NYC you are completely correct. I quoted someone else:

>doubletoe said
>02-10-2009, 01:08 PM
>I would think if you created a second sweet spot near the back of the blade, it could make your jump >landings really rocky. For jumps, you definitely want that flat for stability once your foot comes down.

FigureSpins - are you sure we are talking about the same expert - the one I mentioned to you in the private message concerning the PSA conference?

I had a long talk with him today about this question. He says that he would never have told you that you want a separate heal rocker, or a separate tail rocker, on a figure skate. (Hockey skates have much more complicated rocker curves.) He bases the profile he creates on all MK blades a roughly 25 year old template from MK, which contains a single spin rocker up front, connected to a principle rocker throughout the rest of the blade, Likewise, he applies one of several rocker curves to other brands of skate. But in all of them, everything behind the spin rocker follows the same rocker radius.

He says that if he showed you otherwise on a blade, it was to demonstrate that something had been done wrong. In his opinion, many individual blades come from the factory shaped inaccurately. For example, some blades are shipped that have had concave rocker curves in part of the tail, to use extreme examples (he collects the most extreme cases he can find, and delights in showing them off).

He makes minor variations to this profile in spots, on one or both edges, principly up front, to make it easier to perform specific high level figure skating skills, for those skaters who require it, just as good hockey sharpeners occasionally do, for much the same reasons.

However, other experts might well shape blades differently - there are no published standards. And there are specific ways in a sharpener can accidentally add the features which you describe, especially flattening out the middle, and I (not he) believes that ordinary skating will significantly wear the blade down most in those places you use it most - i.e., in the ball and in the middle, for me.

That said, I may at some point explore placing a minor sweet spot at every point on the blade where I turn or spin. And because sharpeners had flattened my blades' tail a long time ago (probably without intent), I thought for a while it was desirable. I've stopped doing it, but others are welcome to there opinions.

ISk8NYC - I assume that your sharpener creates these features on purpose. If it is a feature you like, then it makes sense for you.

A lot of people like what our expert produces, and travel far to get to him - but other people from our area travel far to get to someone else.

I claim that when people talk about a sharpener being good or bad they mean many different things, like when they talk about . At the lowest end, they mean the bad sharpener produces accidental artifacts, and has little control over what he or she is doing. At the upper end, it is like a good or bad cook - they like or don't like what the sharpener produces. If a skater gets used to the specific features a sharpener (or boot technician) produces, and likes the results, the skater should stay with that sharpener or boot technician, and will be unhappy if they move around from professional to professional at random, picking who ever happens to be most convenient in any given week.

I have not at this time talked to the production managers or other relevant individuals at the blade companies who control the theoretical blade shapes they wish to produce. It is conceivable that our chosen expert does not have up to date or accurate information on what the individual blade companies produce. This is the best I have at this time. But I still have a lot to learn - I've never denied that.

When I use words like "I claim" or "I think", I mean that to imply it is a personal opinion, one which some others would likely to disagree. I hope that is obvious.