Skater relationship with a coach

[AgnesNitt]

The other day, I had an exchange with my coach that indicated he was accustomed to skaters going to other coaches behind his back. I was able to reassure him that I "knew the rules". He is my coach and I always consult him first before going to another coach for a one off lesson. But a lot of skaters (even adults) and parents don't seem to know 'the rules'. I thought  that maybe as a group effort we could put together a 'FAQ of good skater behavior' for dealing with coaches.  I've been warned that this may be contentious, but below I'm going to lay out what I think are the basic rules. I hope that others will contribute, correcting me, or providing other suggestions so we can produce a FAQ.  

Here is my draft:

1.  Your coach is a professional. Professionals expect to be paid on time and promptly. Failure to pay your coach can damage your reputation in the skating community. Word gets around.

2. When setting up a professional relationship with a coach you should determine their policy on 'no shows'. Some coaches charge, others don't. If you don't show up, and the coach charges for no shows, you should expect to pay.

3. Your relationship with your coach is a professional one. You should be professional when working with them.
a.You should show up on time and ready to skate.
b. If you must miss a lesson , let your coach know immediately! (See rule #2)
c. If you are the skater, you should put your full effort into focusing on the coach during a lesson. No breaking off to chat with friends.  
d. If your child is the skater, the parent and the coach should determine how long a lesson the child can focus. A young child may only be 15 minutes.

4. The coaching world is sensitive about 'poaching'. Poaching is a term used to indicate that a coach steals a student away from another coach. This is considered a serious breach of professional ethics. Skaters must be careful not to fall afoul of this issue.
a. If you are planning to see another coach, you should talk to your present coach *before* contacting the second coach.
b. Don't talk to other skaters who have a different coach and encourage them to come over to your coach.
c. Treat other coaches with respect, particularly regarding ice safety, but it's not their job to coach you. Don't ask them for tips.
d. If a coach other than your own, offers you skating tips, this may be in violation of PSA poaching rules. You should proceed very carefully as this can place you in the middle of two coaches.
e. If you are at a skating camp, group lessons, or other skating event with outside coaches, rule c and d above don't apply.

5. When to leave a coach:
a. A coach can 'fire' a skater. Perhaps the skater is not advancing, or fails to show up, or pay bills. If the skater shows promise but fails to practice or demonstrate self discipline, then the coach may feel it's time to part ways.
b. Sometimes the student outgrows the coach. This is tricky. There is a section on "breaking up is hard to do" below (para #8).
c. Sometimes the coach is not professional: is late, misses lessons, spends time on ice on the phone or chatting with friends. Sayonara.
e. You can't afford the lessons, you can't get to the rink on time, you're not happy with the rink and are switching rinks.

6. Social Networking
a. Friend a coach? Maybe. Some coaches use Facebook as a professional tool, others as a personal tool. A general recommendation is not to friend any professional you have a professional relationship with (doctor, lawyer, or coach) unless they indicate this is okay.

7. Picking a coach
a. Say you've seen a coach at the rink and you like their style. Perhaps other students have discussed their lessons with you, and you think you'd like to try that coach out. what do you do?
b. There are a lot of options. If you don't have a present coach, you can go to the prospective coach and ask about taking lessons. It's generally agreed that setting up a specific number of lessons, or a specific period of time is the best way to try out a new coach.  
c. A coach can say 'no' to a prospective student. Perhaps there are not slots available, or the student isn't advanced enough, or is not testing, or not involved with some other aspect of skating the coach is focused on. Don't take this refusal personally. It's purely a professional decision on the coach's part.
d, Going to a new coach when you already have a coach. WARNING! Dangerous waters ahead. Generally, the etiquette is that you should tell your present coach that you are planning to leave. Set a date for the final lesson, pay all your bills. Then you are free to look for another coach.
e. The final option is to talk to your present coach and say you'd like to take lessons from both her and the new coach, perhaps on a particular issue (spins, jumps etc).  

8. Breaking up is hard to do.
It's not working out. Maybe it's money, or time, or the rink, or you don't feel that you're advancing under the coach. How do you break up?
a. PAY YOUR BILLS.  If you owe your coach money. Pay up.
b. Talk to the coach. Some people say 'be frank'. Others say 'be tactful'  It's possible to be tactfully frank. It really depends on the issue. Money, time, and rink issues you can be frank. Everything else: be tactful. Remember, the rink is a small community. You don't want to damage your own reputation, or your coach's.
c. Separation pay. You don't owe a coach anything other than to pay bills. However, if you have to quit abruptly and without warning, a  a cash equivalent to two lessons  would be a gracious and thoughtful gift, especially if your relationship with the coach has been productive and successful


Christmas Gifts
a. There's no rule that you have to give your coach a gift for Christmas or a birthday. However, it is a custom that is widely honored.
b. Cash is good. Coaches like cash. Also gift cards, booze, and cookies.
c. Small children like to give actual gifts. Use your adult judgment in guiding them.
d. Don't expect a gift from your coach.

[jjane45]

Thank you so much for putting this together, it's great!!!

[Sierra]

Those are great! I think it covers just about everything except the extreme stuff like scamming or abusing.

I think it would be really awkward if I was friended with my coach. But that may just be because I'm a teenager.

So now we just need to make an instruction manual and have this as one of the pages. Then hand it out to anybody who buys an LTS session or freestyle ice.

[drskater]

Agnes you rock the house!! Great work.

A few more things off the top of my head (all based on things I've observed):

Always inform your coach about your specific goals for competition and testing. Remember, when it comes to signing forms, it your coach who decides whether you test or not (i.e. not your Mom).

Trust your coach's advice and instruction. Just because Pro Y. teaches her students one method, doesn't mean that Pro X's different techniques are wrong.

Take some time to learn about the sport. Read the appropriate information on the USFS website; read the ISI Handbook or the USFS Rulebook; watch figure skating on TV. In short, try to have more than a passing acquaintance with what figure skating is all about. (If you have no clue and don't care to learn, then why the $#@!! are you on a figure skating club board?!?----er, did I just say that? )

Looking forward to the "versa" part of this FAQ!

[aussieskater]

Thanks for this AgnesNitt.  It's a very interesting and accurate representation of what the coaches would like to have happen, and complying with most of them will keep your relationship on a professional footing.

For me at least, however, as far as points 4 and 8 are concerned [*ducks behind flame-retardant cloth*], the thought of requiring the bill payer to formally sever relations with one coach before even enquiring availability with another, thus potentially leaving the skater without training, smacks to me of protectionism and patch-guarding.  The coach doesn't "own" the skater, and should not be able to make it difficult for the skater to change coaches if  the skater believe there is a better fit elsewhere.  The involvement of any coach in the question of who coaches the skater is limited to his/her choice not to take the skater as a student.

Of course, the first coach's proper bills need to be paid, and common courtesy dictates that the skater or parent must have that "difficult discussion" with the first coach, but to my mind it shouldn't need to go further than that.

Put it this way:  if I was to see a lawyer or a doctor or a [insert professional of choice], but for some reason their services weren't a good fit, there's no way I would sever relations until I had a replacement lined up.  Why should coaching be any different?

[AgnesNitt]

For me at least, however, as far as points 4 and 8 are concerned [*ducks behind flame-retardant cloth*], the thought of requiring the bill payer to formally sever relations with one coach before even enquiring availability with another, thus potentially leaving the skater without training, smacks to me of protectionism and patch-guarding.  The coach doesn't "own" the skater, and should not be able to make it difficult for the skater to change coaches if  the skater believe there is a better fit elsewhere.  The involvement of any coach in the question of who coaches the skater is limited to his/her choice not to take the skater as a student.

I've only had one experience of breaking up with a coach. My coaches have retired, or left for other climes. My 'breakup' was due to rink issues, not the coach. I guess my writing was not detailed enough. I would be interested in hearing from coaches on this.

What about this approach?
Option A--the complete breakup
a. Have the difficult conversation--what's wrong, can we fix it?
b. If nothing works, tell the coach you'd like to finish up your lessons on such and such a date perhaps a few weeks in the future. You need to give to coach time to fill your slot.
c. Start looking for another coach.
Option B-the breakup two step
a. Tell the coach you'd like to take lessons with another coach as a secondary coach. Maybe you're having a problem with a particular element. Another coach's perspective can be useful.
b. Set up a series of lessons with the secondary coach. These lessons should have a definite end.
c. If you find the second coach more to your liking, go back to the primary coach, set a date for final lesson.

Looking forward to the "versa" part of this FAQ!

I think I overstepped myself there. PSA already has ethical guidelines. I'll just stick to the skater side.

[Sierra]

For me at least, however, as far as points 4 and 8 are concerned [*ducks behind flame-retardant cloth*], the thought of requiring the bill payer to formally sever relations with one coach before even enquiring availability with another, thus potentially leaving the skater without training, smacks to me of protectionism and patch-guarding.  The coach doesn't "own" the skater, and should not be able to make it difficult for the skater to change coaches if  the skater believe there is a better fit elsewhere.  The involvement of any coach in the question of who coaches the skater is limited to his/her choice not to take the skater as a student.

That's perfectly normal in the figure skating world. The skater would be without training for maybe three minutes.

[AgnesNitt]

Agnes you rock the house!! Great work.

A few more things off the top of my head (all based on things I've observed):

Always inform your coach about your specific goals for competition and testing. Remember, when it comes to signing forms, it your coach who decides whether you test or not (i.e. not your Mom).

Trust your coach's advice and instruction. Just because Pro Y. teaches her students one method, doesn't mean that Pro X's different techniques are wrong.

Take some time to learn about the sport. Read the appropriate information on the USFS website; read the ISI Handbook or the USFS Rulebook; watch figure skating on TV. In short, try to have more than a passing acquaintance with what figure skating is all about. (If you have no clue and don't care to learn, then why the $#@!! are you on a figure skating club board?!?----er, did I just say that? )

Looking forward to the "versa" part of this FAQ!

Could you write up a few short comments on this and I'll add them in. They're good points.

[Sk8tmum]

Thanks for this AgnesNitt.  It's a very interesting and accurate representation of what the coaches would like to have happen, and complying with most of them will keep your relationship on a professional footing.

For me at least, however, as far as points 4 and 8 are concerned [*ducks behind flame-retardant cloth*], the thought of requiring the bill payer to formally sever relations with one coach before even enquiring availability with another, thus potentially leaving the skater without training, smacks to me of protectionism and patch-guarding.  The coach doesn't "own" the skater, and should not be able to make it difficult for the skater to change coaches if  the skater believe there is a better fit elsewhere.  The involvement of any coach in the question of who coaches the skater is limited to his/her choice not to take the skater as a student.

Of course, the first coach's proper bills need to be paid, and common courtesy dictates that the skater or parent must have that "difficult discussion" with the first coach, but to my mind it shouldn't need to go further than that.

Put it this way:  if I was to see a lawyer or a doctor or a [insert professional of choice], but for some reason their services weren't a good fit, there's no way I would sever relations until I had a replacement lined up.  Why should coaching be any different?

Skate Canada has in place in their coaching ethics regulations,which all coaches must follow, that coaches may not take on a student unless all bills are paid to previous coaches and that the previous coaches have confirmed this. They are able to confirm availability to a prospective student, but, may not take them on until the previous coach is notified and paid. 

[fsk8r]

That's perfectly normal in the figure skating world. The skater would be without training for maybe three minutes.

Not necessarily, it depends on the rink and the availability of other coaches to fit when the skater is available to train. I know at my rink it would be extremely difficult to get lessons with some of the coaches as they are fully booked when most skaters train. At other less popular times (when there's no freestyle or during school hours) they may have time, but even that's not guaranteed.

I've a two year plan to pick up an extra slot from my free coach, when some of the kids go to university. If I get lucky someone might change their schedule before then. I wouldn't want to go without lessons while looking for a new coach, so I would want to try to set something up before ending lessons with my current coaches if I were ever to want to switch.

[bollyskater]

So, if you only take group lessons and not private ones, is the coach of your current group learn-to-skate/freestyle class "your" coach?

The reason I ask is I worry that I may have hurt some coaches' feelings at my old rink when I switched to a farther-away rink. I switched because the hours offered for adult group lessons at my current rink suited my schedule better than the first rink. I did send the head coach a note saying why before I signed up at the new place, but I still see my old group-lesson coaches around town when I practice locally.

[AgnesNitt]

.

So, if you only take group lessons and not private ones, is the coach of your current group learn-to-skate/freestyle class "your" coach?

The reason I ask is I worry that I may have hurt some coaches' feelings at my old rink when I switched to a farther-away rink. I switched because the hours offered for adult group lessons at my current rink suited my schedule better than the first rink. I did send the head coach a note saying why before I signed up at the new place, but I still see my old group-lesson coaches around town when I practice locally.

You owe group coaches no loyalty. Rinks will sometimes switch group coaches around, so your relationship with the group coach is purely accidental, not something you arranged.  Although I'm sure it would be a courtesy (but not essential) to mention to the coach that you've enjoyed taking lessons from them, but you're having to switch to another rink. You don't need to worry about group coaches, students drop in/drop out all the time.

[Query]

>4a. If you are planning to see another coach, you should talk to your present coach
>*before* contacting the second coach.

I  love  :angel to disagree...

I think discrete inquiries initiated by the skater are fine.

PSA rules are monopolistic protectionism. Think about it. In almost any other profession, as well as many other sports, breaking such rules isn't "poaching" - it is normal competitive business practice.

The best that can be said of anti-poaching rules is that they help protect skating kids from certain crazy parents who might otherwise be talked into switching coaches with radically different styles every few weeks. But crazy parents isn't a problem that is fixed that easily.

[AgnesNitt]

>4a. If you are planning to see another coach, you should talk to your present coach
>*before* contacting the second coach.

I  love  :angel to disagree...

I think discrete inquiries initiated by the skater are fine.

PSA rules are monopolistic protectionism. Think about it. In almost any other profession, as well as many other sports, breaking such rules isn't "poaching" - it is normal competitive business practice.

The best that can be said of anti-poaching rules is that they help protect skating kids from certain crazy parents who might otherwise be talked into switching coaches with radically different styles every few weeks. But crazy parents isn't a problem that is fixed that easily.

And I disagree with your disagree.
You as an experienced skater no doubt have the breadth of experience to deal with this issue. As an adult you're perfectly free to manage your skating life as it suits you.  Yours is not an approach I'd recommend to an inexperienced adult skater, a teenager, or a skating parent.

HOWEVER, as an older woman, older than some of my coaches, I have been the recipient of coach's confidences about cases of poaching. Coaches don't like the kind of behavior you describe, and believe me they talk about it. You can get a bad reputation, particularly if you're leaving a coach who is popular with the other coaches. If you are leaving a coach that other coaches dislike, not so much a problem. We don't skate in a  bubble. We skate in a community. Coaches gossip.  Breaking the 'poaching rules' causes a lot of unhappiness and disruption. Is it worth it? I don't think so. Why not coordinate with your coach first, and avoid the issue?

[drskater]

Hmmmmm, don't know about this one, Q. What exactly is "discrete"? To some ears, that reads as "stab in the back." It's always better to be upfront, especially in the gossip-powered world of rink culture.

To the tell the truth, if I learned somebody was making discrete inquiries unbeknownst to his/her coach I would regard that person as a #@%!!. 

[Isk8NYC]

Just to be picayune, per Merriam-Webster:
Discrete: constituting a separate entity : individually distinct
Discreet: having or showing discernment or good judgment in conduct and especially in speech
I don't know which the poster meant; either could fit the situation, lol.  Sorry, DH and I had a discussion about the use of these synonyms recently, so it was fresh in my mind.  No criticism intended.

We've had this discussion on skatingforums several times about whether people can, or should, make their switching arrangements before showing their cards to the current coach.  The PSA procedures state that any coach approached by a client must instruct them to first make contact with their current coach to discuss the situation.  It's to open adult lines of communication between the client and the current coach.  It's an opportunity to salvage the coaching arrangement with no hard feelings.

http://www.skatepsa.com/PDF%20Documents/Proper-changes.pdf


Whenever I'm approached by someone thinking about switching lessons, I ask them to first speak to their current coach, just to let them know.  While I will answer "are you available on Tuesdays?", I preface it with a "talk to your current coach first."  I'm blessed with excellent students and parents, so I wouldn't go out of my way to acquire a client who would maneuver behind my back at some point.  A client who tells their coach up front about the switch?  That's my kind of people - I'm honest/upfront and I like being treated that way myself.  I have no problem with one of my skating students/parents saying "I'm thinking of taking lessons with ()."  I just don't want to be the last to know because it smacks of underhanded backroom dealings.  That's my opinion.

[Isk8NYC]

So, if you only take group lessons and not private ones, is the coach of your current group learn-to-skate/freestyle class "your" coach?

Changing rinks is different than taking groups with one coach and then choosing another coach at that rink for privates, so you have no worries.  In truth, group coaches rarely have any claim to a group student, except in ONE situation.  IF Student A is in Coach Y's group and Student A goes to the skating director to ask for a private lesson coach recommendation, most skating directors will ask if Student A would consider taking from Coach Y first.  It's just a courtesy, but the truth is that most people who are in groups and ask about privates from the Director probably aren't thrilled with the current instructor.  Think about it: if you're spending 30 minutes with Coach Y, why wouldn't you ask him/her directly?  So, it's just a formality, to make sure the skater knows that their group lesson instructor is also a private coach.  Given schedules, some people are surprised at that revelation.  (If Coach Y has most of his/her lessons in the mornings and leaves for another rink right after Saturday groups, for example.  Other instructors may offer private lessons right after groups on the public session.)

[fsk8r]

With regards to poaching, we had an incident really where one coach felt his skater had been poached by another, and my two coaches were gossiping about it. And one of them said, that poaching only occurs where the parent/skater is already somwhat dissatisfied. The compliments from the other coach will be taken as just that, compliments if the parent is happy with the current arrangements. If they're unhappy, they're open to the concept of switching coaches, which means the current coaching relationship isn't working.
The most recent coaching switch i've heard of that some people would say is poaching, I've heard the parent's view point and there was a precipitating incident which caused unhappiness and the switch took several months to happen.

[jumpingbeansmom]

>4a. If you are planning to see another coach, you should talk to your present coach
>*before* contacting the second coach.

I  love  :angel to disagree...

I think discrete inquiries initiated by the skater are fine.

PSA rules are monopolistic protectionism. Think about it. In almost any other profession, as well as many other sports, breaking such rules isn't "poaching" - it is normal competitive business practice.

The best that can be said of anti-poaching rules is that they help protect skating kids from certain crazy parents who might otherwise be talked into switching coaches with radically different styles every few weeks. But crazy parents isn't a problem that is fixed that easily.

I guess the only problem is whether the coach you want to switch to will accept you as a student...there are some coaches here who do NOT accept anyone who asks be it for room purposes or that they only teach certain profiles....so you are saying you should risk being coachless?

[Query]

I have always told my current coach I was talking to another coach first - except when I hadn't taken a lesson from them in a long while, so they weren't really my current coach. And I have told most of my private coaches that I might take group lessons from someone else at the same time. I like group lessons.

But that was just a courtesy. I can't see that it should be required.

I guess the only problem is whether the coach you want to switch to will accept you as a student...there are some coaches here who do NOT accept anyone who asks be it for room purposes or that they only teach certain profiles....so you are saying you should risk being coachless?

Huh? I'm not quite clear what you are saying. Could you reword that?

It is unfortunate if coaches hate students who consider switching. A mature coach should appreciate that their particular teaching style won't work for everyone.

It must be a fairly unusual part of the culture of figure skating that the the employee is considered to own the employer, and considers such ownership ethical.

When I was taking private whitewater kayak lessons, I was approached by another instructor about taking from him. I think that is pretty common in that world. I honestly don't know if there are many worlds where the figure skating attitude is common.

If you were contracting to have something built, and weren't happy, wouldn't you feel free to talk to others, without informing the current contractor you were doing so? If you were diagnosed with a medical illness, wouldn't you feel it reasonable to seek a second opinion without asking the current doctor? If your child took lessons in math from a private tutor, and the child didn't advance fast enough, wouldn't it be reasonable to try a lesson with another tutor before telling the first one? Wouldn't you feel OK switching to a new professor for your next college course, if it is also available from the current one?

---

I do regret one situation.

I was taking from a private ice dance coach, who like me was a guy, so we couldn't partner. He was a very good coach, with a strong competitive background, who coached many strongly competitive dance couples. (He was new to the area. He no longer accepts non-competitive students.)

The rink made a deal with that coach. They created many Ice Dance sessions. He taught a group lesson, and would arrange for his nationally competitive students to teach 15 minute private lessons to the group lesson students, at $1/minute. This arrangement attracted many students to the group lesson who were already taking lessons from one private coach or another, but took the opportunity to take the short private lessons from his competitive students.  He told his competitive students it would be good experience towards become coaches in their own right. I took the group lessons, while continuing the privates, and started taking lessons with one of his competitive students too, who was a gal, so she could dance with me.

I don't think I knew about anti-poaching standards at the time.

Some time later I became discouraged about skating, and quit taking lessons for a while. But I later took lessons with the student again, without consulting with the first coach. It only later occurred to me that that might have been awkward for both her and the original coach, who continued to be her coach.

The first coach wasn't bad. But it is very hard to learn low level ice dance from a coach you can't dance with. Plus her English was good enough to explain things to me, as his was not.

In retrospect the arrangement the rink pushed had the potential to create awkward situations, one of which I allowed to happen. I don't know whether or not the other group lessons students knew about anti-poaching standards either. A lot of skating students don't.

---

Given anti-poaching standards, it is a good thing for students to know about them.

But I still can't see how such standards are good things. You should be able to take lessons from anyone you want who is willing to teach you.

[jjane45]

Very interesting comparisons.

[sk8lady]

For the most part, I agree with Agnes' (and the PSA's) no-poaching rules. A mature adult--either parent or child--should be able to explain to their coach that they feel they need to try a new approach with a different coach. I had two secondary coaches--one for freestyle, and one for dance--already lined up when I split with my coach, partly since I could see the train wreck coming.

However, one issue that doesn't seem to get addressed is what happens when the COACH is the immature one. When I decided I wanted to switch coaches--and I thought my coach was ready for me to leave too--I emailed her twice and called and left numerous messages explaining, initially, that I wanted to talk to her, and (when I got no response) eventually that I was going to switch coaches and would need acknowledgment from her that she understood this so that I could approach another coach. She refused to answer me. Luckily, the other coach knew her, tracked her down, and got her acknowledgment. Not sure what I would have done otherwise. I suppose I would eventually have had to send her a certified letter or something!

[AgnesNitt]

However, one issue that doesn't seem to get addressed is what happens when the COACH is the immature one. When I decided I wanted to switch coaches--and I thought my coach was ready for me to leave too--I emailed her twice and called and left numerous messages explaining, initially, that I wanted to talk to her, and (when I got no response) eventually that I was going to switch coaches and would need acknowledgment from her that she understood this so that I could approach another coach. She refused to answer me. Luckily, the other coach knew her, tracked her down, and got her acknowledgment. Not sure what I would have done otherwise. I suppose I would eventually have had to send her a certified letter or something!

I agree the certified letter has legal prededence behind it, but if I was in your shoes, I think I would have gone to the skating director.   

[FigureSpins]

^ ^ ITA

If you left messages and sent emails, you did your part to notify him/her, but the letter is definitely a solid no-argument closer.  After the second attempt, I would have asked to speak with the Skating Director or Head Pro/Club officer, to make it clear that you've tried to reach the coach and that you'd be switching shortly. 

[Sk8Dreams]

Given anti-poaching standards, it is a good thing for students to know about them.

But I still can't see how such standards are good things. You should be able to take lessons from anyone you want who is willing to teach you.

Skaters are completely free to choose any coach they want and to leave a coach at any time.  It is the new coach's responsibility to touch bases with the previous coach to make sure no fees are owed.  Telling your current coach you are leaving, for whatever reason, is a matter of practicality and of courtesy.  As has been said, word gets around, and no one wants to be treated poorly, so if the way you leave your coach is crude and rude, other coaches may be reluctant to take you on. 

As far as poaching goes, that is a matter among coaches.  The term used by the PSA is soliciting.  It is against PSA ethics to solicit another coach's students.  It has nothing to do with a skater's choice of coach.  I have seen a coach skate out to talk to students in a lesson with another coach.  Quite a few students have been unethically solicited at my rink, and it is generally not a happy place to work.