Why not lower heels, smaller rocker, and longer roll to toepick?

[Query]

Why don't skates and blades have lower heels, smaller rocker, and a longer roll to the toepick?

I've been trying to analyze why I have had so much trouble with my Ultima blades. In the process, I am beginning to question whether the way any figure skates and blades have been shaped makes any sense at all.

My main problem with the Ultima blades is that there is such a change at the spin rocker: it takes a lot of strength to overcome the resistance of the 8' rocker, which suddenly changes at the spin rocker, and there is very little distance between the start of the spin rocker and the toe pick. So when I reach the spin rocker, I rock all the way to the toepick unless I fight it very hard.

My twizzles have 3 turn tracings even if the toe pick doesn't touch, I guess because of the high resistance. I can do twizzles further back on the 8' rocker length - but it is awkward to rotate on such a large rocker.

The flat section at the tail is also too long and flat, driving my weight back and making it even harder to roll forwards through that part of the blade.

(Ultima and Wilson blades do not actually have a fixed rocker radius on any part of the blade - they vary gradually throughout, flat at the tail, and curved at the front. Most MK blades have a close to fixed rocker radius through most of the length, and do not have a very flat tail. This makes a huge difference between how blades skate, yet is not discussed when companies like Ultima say their blades are comparable to MK's blades.)

I can easily change the blade shape - but have been hesitant to make too large a change (e.g., change to 7' rocker), because it wastes so much metal on expensive blades to make large changes.

It seems to me that it would be easier to do almost everything if one could roll more through figure skating blades. It would be easier to control exactly where your weight was centered, and there would be more momentum for jumps.

For that to be true, one would want a lower heel - maybe level with the toe, an insole shape that did not bend the ball of the foot up (maybe the bent foot is to shift the weight forward to accommodate the high heel?). That would give the foot more range of motion, and make it easier to point more to place one's full weight on the full toe pick for jumps as well.

I know people have said the high heels are to press the chest forward and curve the back backwards, a pose that many people like.

They also say one bumps into the toepicks accidentally too much with lower heels, but that is actually because the blades are shaped to match the high heels.

One would also want a somewhat smaller (more curved) rocker radius, and a toe pick which didn't touch until our weight was centered over a point substantially further forwards on the foot than the ball.

A smaller rocker radius would glide with slightly more friction, but being able to roll more through the skate would let you push more strongly. Maybe the 7' rocker blades have that about right, or maybe 6 or 6.5' would be closer to allowing efficient pushing.

I also like Sid Broadbent ideas of a detachable adjustable height toepick

http://www.iceskateology.com/Skateology/Goldquest.html

because it would let people adjust height to their exact range of motion, and the skating characteristics need not change with sharpening.

(A non-proprietary alternative might be to shape toe picks so one could retain the initial profile shape as the blade wears and sharpening cut metal away - i.e., the teeth could be angled less forward and more vertical.)

The Ultima blades, like some others, also have assymetric teeth, which are cut angled to be higher on one side. I'm not sure if that makes any sense. I guess the Ultima blades are shaped that way to favor one direction spins, because the first tooth is longer on that side, but I don't think their is any real benefit.

Any thoughts?

[Sierra]

I'm pretty sure twizzles are supposed to have three turn tracings. My coach has the 'V' tracing several times in a row- basically several 3turns in a row- when she shows it to me. And since she teaches/demonstrates high level MITF and her students pass..
She actually told me not to make it spinny. Twizzles are not a traveling backspin (contrary to what some people think.)

If you mean for the blade to have a continuous rocker, this might be problematic. Might make it too hard to balance? Somebody would have to test it out to be sure. It'd be interesting. I'm picturing a rocker chair rocker, which is pretty uniform in curve.

It might just be that the blade isn't suited for you. Many skaters skate well on Ultimas. On the other hand, they've never skated on the blade you're describing.
Heel height is interesting. I saw a pair skater's Risports once- the heel must have been four inches. I was dumbfounded- how do they stay off the toepick..?! My heel is 2.5 inches (old skates were 3), and I think I like that height better. But it could just be that the skate itself is better quality & the blade is much more differently shaped (CorAce as compared to some unknown recreational blade).
My CorAces have a short tail, almost like a dance tail. I almost never have heel-catching or stepping-on-self problems with those short tails. Could the short tail be responsible for my notorious sitting down on jump landings- or would I sit down anyways

[Sk8tmum]

The Ultima blades, like some others, also have assymetric teeth, which are cut angled to be higher on one side. I'm not sure if that makes any sense. I guess the Ultima blades are shaped that way to favor one direction spins, because the first tooth is longer on that side, but I don't think their is any real benefit.

do you mean cross-cut picks?  Not all of the Ultima Blades do have them, some have straight cut picks. Ultimas are all "clones" of either a Wilson or a MK blade, and the pick pattern depends on which one they're cloning. These don't affect spinning, though ... there are lots of threads on straight vs cross cut picks in the forum.

Don Jackson uses Ultima blades, and his twizzles and 3-turns and edges are beautiful to watch  ... my kid has no problems with them, in fact, her footwork was substantially improved when she switched to them from a CoroComet as her new Ultima blades had a rocker that worked better for her ...

which Ultimas are you using, BTW?

[Query]

I'm mostly using Ultima Dance.

Yes, I mean cross cut picks.

The Ultima Dance Blades are advertised as comparable to MK Dance. But they skate completely differently. 8' vs 7' nominal rocker. Less horizontal and vertical distance between the start of the spin rocker and the toepick. The flat tail section of the Ultima Dance is much longer than the MK Dance. I think the edge strip is thinner.

I was somewhat happier on both Coronation Ace and MK Dance blades.  The MK Dance were much faster. The Ultima should have a faster glide, based on edge width and rocker, but I guess it was easier for me to push on the MK. Since I have the (now defunct) interchangeable runner Ultima mounts, I also tried Ultima Supreme (freestyle) and Synchro blades, but they have the same principle rocker characteristics as the Ultima Dance.

I'm tempted to just apply an MK Dance profile to the Ultima blades, in spite of the waste of metal. But it seems to me that I should first get the heel height right, then reshape the blade to match, so my weight placement is right.

I realize that some of what I suggest sounds like hockey skates and blades - though hockey skates are typically flatter (about 9' rocker?) in the center (for balance and faster direction changes and stronger stops), and much more curved at both ends (for faster turns).

But I don't think we should discard some of the other hockey skate and blade developments just because they come from the hockey world. They may have worked out pretty well what makes for stronger strokes, faster acceleration, and better turns. Of course, they jump differently - e.g., off center, for fast direction changes, so I don't think we should get rid of the toepick.

I recognize that blade shape is a personal preference. But it seems like the high heels have so crippled everything else that we do, by forcing everything to occur within the space of a very short roll, that it may not be worth it.

Maybe I'm just thinking as a guy with ankles that can't point enough. For me, placing my full weight on my current toepicks with high heels means there is no ankle range of motion left to add anything to jumps, and that I always fight the stretch of my own muscles or ligaments in addition to the longer rocker as I reach to the toepick.

But I don't see how jamming everything into the space of such a short roll can help anyone.

[fsk8r]

With regards to heel height - have a look at speed skates. They have no heel to speak of, but I also don't believe they have much of a rocker.

As someone who used to skate on blades which were very flat and didn't rock too far from spin rocker to toe-pick (ISE Sterling), it won't fix all your problems, in fact I'm now skating a lot better since switching to Ultimas. I also have dance and freestyle boots which I interchange based on discipline. I've always been in Ultima for dance, but was in the Sterlings for freestyle. The freestyle boots have a lower heel height than the dance. Once I switched the blades on the freestyle boots, I was instantly a lot happier skating in them and bizarrely despite the heel height difference, I don't notice the difference between blades. I've never had a problem alternating between boots despite having different blade profiles on each, so I'm not convinced that the changes you are proposing are the solution to your problems.

[Query]

I'm pretty sure twizzles are supposed to have three turn tracings.

Oh.

I've been told there is a difference between twizzles and the continuous 3 turns that freestyle skaters do.

Is the difference all upper body - e.g., continuous upper body rotation vs snaps?

I've been watching the Grand Prix events on TV.

I love the way some of the better skaters continue traveling along the skating trajectory at the same speed when they twizzle as when they were gliding just before the twizzles. It looks so nice.

Then I look at my attempts, which gradually slow down. If I do 3 turns in a row (on the days I can stay balanced that long), they sort of become spins. Every time skate comes across the direction of travel, it stops 3 turns, which tends to stop my upper body too.

I watched one couple who took first place in one of the Grand Prix events avoid this by leaving their skates pointed in the direction of travel, but as the turn across the direction of travel, the feet snapped around to point in the opposite direction of travel - and likewise from backwards to forwards. That looks hard to master, sort of like spotting. But some other couples who took first place in other Grand Prix events didn't do this. Possibly their bodies continue moving as the foot stalls, possibly the skate follows a traveling circle - I can't tell from TV.

So I asked another dancer, who looked very graceful, how to improve what I was doing, who looked very graceful. She admitted twizzles weren't her strongest move, but she had passed Gold, so I figured she had to know what she was doing. She pointed at the 3 turn V's in my tracings, and said that was bad.

Sigh. I guess you can't always get reliable info from people who aren't judges or professional coaches, no matter how high they test.

[icefrog]

I think that when a twizzle is just a double three when you do 2 three turns then like pump your knee and it leaves a circular edge mark, then repeat the double threes. That is not a twizzle or it you do it and it moves in the shape of a circle, not the edge marks, what the shape of the tracing in v's going around in a circle, that is a backspin. My understanding of a twizzle is that it is the twizzle marking in a line. Most of the time I can't tell if its a twizzle or not my coach tells me its right. Kind of like how when a jump is barely cheated and you need a coach to tell you it was wrong, but I can definaltly tell when I do the double 3 edge thing.

And I do them in Ultima blades with Jackson skates with a high heel. I have never had a problem, except it took a little while to get used to the higher heel when I first got the skates, but it was part of breaking them in and getting comfortable in them. I don't think I would ever switch to another brand, I've been so happy with the Ultima's I'm in now.
                                                                                                 

[fsk8r]

Twizzles are like double 3s in the tracing they leave on the ice. The main difference is that there is no movement of the skating knee whilst twizzling. With a double 3 there is a distinct rise and fall.

The other fault that commonly occurs with twizzles is drawing little loops on the ice so the skate isn't actually changing edge.

[phoenix]

Okay this is kind of an area of focus for me, so....

Definition of a twizzle:

a traveling series of turns on one foot beginning from either edge, forward or backward.

the twizzle must continue to travel in a relatively straight line (it will curve a little bit if you do a series of several twizzles

The foot turns in the same way as when it does a three turn, therefore it leaves the same tracing as a double 3 (or more)

HOWEVER, a three turn is checked and a twizzle is not.

Your skating knee rises and falls during three turns--during a twizzle the knee is not permitted to move at all. Most twizzles are done on a completely straight knee. (in dance competition, lower levels are given a bit of leeway here; mandatory deductions begin at intermediate for obvious knee movement)

Position of the free foot is optional (Query, the team you see doing interesting things w/ their free legs--I suspect its just the choreography, might add difficulty to the twizzles & therefore be worth more points)

The twizzle turns (because the knee is not moving and the shoulders do not check) are smooth and continuous, so to the untrained eye it will  look like a spin. BUT, if you're leaving loops on the ice, it's not a twizzle; it's a traveling spin! There should be a short actual glide between each turn. By short I mean a foot or less. If the points are within inches of each other, you're probably not doing a great twizzle; on the verge of spinning rather than twizzling; the point of the twizzle is to travel.

Hope that's helpful!

[Query]

Thanks, folks!

I'll stop worrying about the V's. I think I'm doing most of the things you mention.

What I must still fix is that I slow down a lot as I twizzle. The only fix I can think of is to try to let the foot stall as it turns, while bending sideways at the hip to push the upper body faster along the motion trajectory, then let the foot catch up after the turn. Does that sound right?

--

For me, the high heels interfere in many ways, because of my limited ankle range of motion [ROM]. The high heels always push my ankles to one end of that range. So to use the spin rocker and toepick I have to push my ankle beyond its normal range of motion, which requires a lot of my strength, making it easy to lose fine control. The bent foot position the boot interior shape enforces just makes that worse, so I can't just sand down my heels - I need boots designed for a much lower heel, including a flatter footbed.

Maybe the minimal roll that the Ultima blade design implies is fine for someone who has more delicate control because they aren't having to use all their strength to reach the spin rocker and toepick. Perhaps the ability to create turns and jumps with minimal foot motion is even an advantage under those conditions.

Maybe if I had found a better custom boot fitter the problems would not have arisen. I'm not sure whether even the best boot fitters measure ROM (it's not part of manufacturer specified fit instructions I've found), and whether custom boots are normally built to accommodate measured ROMs, but maybe they should be.

A lot of maybes. This is all very speculative.

[fsk8r]

For the twizzle issue, I would focus on not moving during the turning. Your weight needs to be directly over the skate. If I don't keep my core strong, I'll either wobble out of the twizzle or I slow down as the blade starts scratching. I've been practicing them for the last year and I'm finally consistently able to get 2 or 3 revolutions on them and getting them faster.

With regards to the heel height - have you looked at different boot manufacturers? While all figure skates tend to have some degree of heel, the actual height varies between manufacturers. I know Grafs are lower than Jacksons, but I do wish they told you how high the heel was as it does make a difference when you switch boots as it moves your CoG and affects how you skate.

[phoenix]

What I must still fix is that I slow down a lot as I twizzle. The only fix I can think of is to try to let the foot stall as it turns, while bending sideways at the hip to push the upper body faster along the motion trajectory, then let the foot catch up after the turn. Does that sound right?

No--You're over thinking this to the max.

You rise to the straight knee to begin the rotation, and then you don't move a muscle, except a bit in the skating foot as you change edges/direction. I even hold my breath, stretching up, up, up, and not moving. You'll slow down if the blade catches & isn't doing clean turns. You should NOT bend anything sideways or the twizzle will spit you out!

[Query]

Any custom boot maker can probably make a boot with any desired heel height - I just didn't know what to ask for, and took the boot fitter's suggestion - I think about 2.5". It hurt, so we returned it to Klingbeil, and they took it down slightly - but I didn't know enough to realize it was still too high, and of course they probably kept the amount of forefoot bend, as changing that would have required making completely new boots.

--

My twizzle rotation doesn't slow down much. It is the travel along the skating direction that slows down. AFAIK, I have a quiet body on the days I manage to balance it well. Perhaps I'm not allowing a strong enough edge change...

This needs a coach to fix. You folks can't fix it from oral description, because whatever I am doing wrong, I don't know I'm doing. There is a coach at my favorite rink who does pretty twizzles. It just seems a waste to pay for lessons when I'm fighting equipment problems.

Truth is, this skill is far beyond the level I could plausibly test. I only try because I've had coaches who wanted everybody to learn twizzles, and they look so easy. I mean, double and triple jumps look hard, but how hard can it be to just hold one's body still?

[phoenix]

Actually, good twizzles aren't easy for a lot of people & they take years of consistent practice to get good. If I don't work on them consistently, they go downhill pretty fast.

They do look easy, but they're not!

[FigureSpins]

Any custom boot maker can probably make a boot with any desired heel height - I just didn't know what to ask for, and took the boot fitter's suggestion - I think about 2.5". It hurt, so we returned it to Klingbeil, and they took it down slightly - but I didn't know enough to realize it was still too high, and of course they probably kept the amount of forefoot bend, as changing that would have required making completely new boots.

Setting aside the forefoot bend issue ('cause I have no idea what else they could do), Klingbeil does a lot inside the skate, including adjusting the insole, to alleviate pain.

I had arch pain and adding cushioning insole helped alleviate that, so maybe your original pain didn't come from a too-high heel, but from needing a custom-cushioned insole?

Just something to keep in mind; it isn't all about heel height.

[Query]

You probably don't need a custom insole if the boot is fit and made right - the boot should be fit your foot

[icefrog]

You probably don't need a custom insole if the boot is fit and made right - the boot should be fit your foot.

Truth is, I'm afraid to buy new boots - they might just create another 12 years of pain.

You shouldn't be afraid of getting new boots! If you go to a good fitter and try some stuff on you will probably have less pain and a skate that works better for you!

[blue111moon]

You probably don't need a custom insole if the boot is fit and made right - the boot should be fit your foot

In order to make the boot fit correctly, sometimes you need a custom insole made with it.  That's what Klingbeil did for me.  In additiong to all the measuerements Don took and the tracingso of my feet (standing and sitting), he also made foam molds of my soles so he could replicate the arches as part of the footbed inside the boot.  It did take a couple tries to get the footbed comfortable and then we added a thin layer of cushioning over it for comfort and a little shock absorbtion.  But basically I have skates with built-in orthodics. 

The first thing I noticed was that Klingbeil's heels were lower than the ones in my old Riedell's.  It took some getting used to, as well as having the blades resharpened.

[Query]

You shouldn't be afraid of getting new boots! If you go to a good fitter and try some stuff on you will probably have less pain and a skate that works better for you!

No skate store stocks boots for guys my size.

I would love to make my own. Not there yet, but I've posted a couple threads about this.

[icefrog]

No skate store stocks boots for guys my size.

I would love to make my own. Not there yet, but I've posted a couple threads about this.

The store I got my skates a (a very well know and large pro shop) didn't have anything in my size either. They just measured my feet and had me try on different models in sizes close to what I needed and ordered what they decided I would wear. The skates had to be sent from the factory and I tried them on and they fit. If they came in and didn't fit I would not have to buy them, they would just order a different size.

[Query]

he skates had to be sent from the factory and I tried them on and they fit. If they came in and didn't fit I would not have to buy them, they would just order a different size.

Mine were customs. As far as I know every custom skate boot maker give a 100% satisfaction guarantee if you act quickly enough, and I could have gotten my money back, or had new ones made. I didn't know that then, and my boot fitter failed to inform me of such. My fitter didn't want to admit the boots didn't fit, or maybe he was afraid the boot makers would refuse to sell through them if most people's boots that he measured didn't fit. He didn't even seem to know that boots could be punched (stretched in places), and didn't know how to modify the insole to fit by using tape - one of the easiest methods of improving fit.

I won't name that boot fitter, to avoid a libel suit, but suffice it to say I can't imagine going back to him.