Comparison between MK Pro vs Ace

[Bill_S]

Back threes and brackets were almost the same as before. There was almost no difference unless I rocked too far forward or backward on the new blade's "curvier" main rocker right after the turn, then I'd sometimes cut sharply to inside of the turn.

With the curvier rocker of a new blade, I had to pay attention to technique to prevent rocking. With my old flatter 8" Aces, I could make some subtle foot pressure fore-aft adjustments to compensate.

[Query]

Here's a question: how easy are backward three turns and brackets on each of the blades?  Since they turn on the back of the blade...

Bill, do you do backwards turns on the back part of the blades? I ask because different coaches have given me different places to do back turns on - many do them near what I call the sweet spot (the cusp between the spin rocker and the main rocker, near the ball of the foot; not what many hockey players call the sweet spot, BTW, which is the flattest rocker region, close to the center of the blade).

So far, while I'm not advanced as you, I guess you had same problem I initially had with Ultima blades: that it takes substantially more strength to make subtle position changes on the main rocker than it does on the spin rocker, because the rocker curvature change is more pronounced, so very subtle pressure changes when passing that sweet spot make the contact point with the ice move too much, and it is easy to overshoot where you want to go on the blade when you pass it. I adapted very slowly and subconsciously, without clear knowledge of how I did it, but maybe someone here who is better than me can give you explicit advice on how to gain that degree of control.

I have never skated on the MK Pro blades. But I wonder to what extent it is a problem, on both the MK Pro and the Protoge blades, that they are perhaps best designed for intermediate freestyle moves like single and double jumps, with a few spins and 3-turns thrown in, which can all be performed near the ends of the blade, whereas I think the Coronation Ace is almost a compromise to also allow moves that are emphasized somewhat more in Dance, like hrackets, counters, and twizzles, which involve a bit more of the middle and sweet spot of the blade. (I'm basing that partly on the fact that when I started ice dance, I was told to switch to Coronation Aces.) Or do I have that completely wrong?

Or maybe you need more experience with the new blades to be certain? A few weeks, for an adult, is a very fast adaption time, and a few weeks, months, or even a year or two from now you might feel very differently about these blades.

I suppose that if you went "all the way" to advanced models with aggressive toe picks like Wilson Gold Seal, or Ultima Supreme (I never fully adapted to the latter, and shouldn't have tried), it would be even harder to adapt.

OTOH, the one "advanced blade" I loved, MK Dance, is super-easy to adapt to, because the toe picks are not very aggressive, the tails are short, and,.being ground thin at the bottom, they are very fast. Easy, that is, for everything but jumps and maybe spins.MK Dance might be an interesting blade, given infinite resources, if you want to try something a lot different from what you are trying now, and you are willing to switch blades for Freestyle practice.

[Bill_S]

Bill, do you do backwards turns on the back part of the blades? I ask because different coaches have given me different places to do back turns on...

I make back three-turns further back than when I'm doing front three-turns, but not at the extreme rear of the blade. It's been a while since I paid attention to the weight placement with regard to the blade, but I'm sure that my turns are not at the extreme ends of the blades. My front threes are probably behind the spin rocker a little, back threes (IIRC) feel like the rear of my foot's arch.

... whereas I think the Coronation Ace is almost a compromise to also allow moves that are emphasized somewhat more in Dance, like hrackets, counters, and twizzles, which involve a bit more of the middle and sweet spot of the blade. (I'm basing that partly on the fact that when I started ice dance, I was told to switch to Coronation Aces.) Or do I have that completely wrong?

The new MK Professionals feel closest to my OLD Aces. The new Aces have that unusual bit of spin rocker that makes them feel different when spinning. My perception of the similarities of the MK Pro and old Aces is also exhibited in the graph, with the exception of the flattening wear on the main rocker area. Without that difference, they'd feel as similar as peas in a pod. That makes me think that some of the old adages aren't quite true.

A few weeks, for an adult, is a very fast adaption time, and a few weeks, months, or even a year or two from now you might feel very differently about these blades.

Agreed. I assume that you can get used to about anything over time. You just have to retrain your muscle memory. Starting fresh, it would likely be less of an issue.

However, according to the average US life expectancy for a male, I have just 10 years left. I really do hope to beat that, but I won't waste time on trying to adapt to something that requires a lot of time.

OTOH, the one "advanced blade" I loved, MK Dance, is super-easy to adapt to, because the toe picks are not very aggressive, the tails are short, and,.being ground thin at the bottom, they are very fast.

Because the SkateScience dance blade became unavailable, that's another blade I've been eyeing. It has quite a winning history. I do have two new pairs of boots, so it would be fun to use those on the second pair.

[tstop4me]

I suppose that if you went "all the way" to advanced models with aggressive toe picks like Wilson Gold Seal, or Ultima Supreme (I never fully adapted to the latter, and shouldn't have tried), it would be even harder to adapt.

I have the Paramount version of the Gold Seal, and I know several skaters with the genuine Wilson version.  The toe picks on the Gold Seal are not aggressive; about the same degree as those on the Coronation Ace.

[Query]

I have the Paramount version of the Gold Seal, and I know several skaters with the genuine Wilson version.  The toe picks on the Gold Seal are not aggressive; about the same degree as those on the Coronation Ace.

OK. Have you skated on both? If so, how do you feel the Gold Seal and Ace differ, from your point of view as a skater? Or do they feel about the same?

Are they in the same spot on the blade too? That's part of how I personally define aggressive - if you have a large roll distance from your usual skating position to reach the toe pick, then you are less likely to accidentally reach it (a little like a typical rental skate), that is non-aggressive - to me.

In the case of MK Dance, it is only partly the length of the picks. Part of what makes them non-aggressive is the angle at which they stick out. In particular, most freestyle blades are designed so if you stick the toe pick in, they catch hard and tend to vault you into the air. The angle at which the MK Dance picks stick out is such that instead of vaulting into the air, it mostly just stops your forward roll. In some respects the MK Dance are a lot like beginner blades - though the picks are a little easier to reach than on a rental skate, and the shorter tail might mean a complete beginner might fall backwards. The astonishing thing about MK Dance is that they are used by ice dancers all the way up to Olympic level - which kind of suggests that the emphasis in ice dance isn't so much on doing difficult moves (though brackets and especially counters are hard for me, and I have balance problems that mess up twizzles), but on doing fundamental skating moves very well. Of course MK Dance are too expensive for most beginners to justify buying.

One thing has really puzzled me. The difference in rocker profiles between different figure skating blades can usually literally be measured in hundredths of an inch, and the difference between most ROH's as well as various forms of side honing is even smaller. Yet, to the skater, or at least to me, they feel extremely different.

(Another thing that I don't understand is why an intermediate level blade, like MK Pro, which, if I understand correctly, is made of the same materials, and treated with the same metallurgical treatments, as the advanced level blades, is so much cheaper. Is it actually that much less expensive to produce, or is it entirely supply and demand? For that matter, when I've talked to people who work with laser and water cutters on metal, they said they could cut and shape a piece of steel the way figure skating blades are shaped for $1 or $2. At those prices, there should be more competition. Though it is possible the metallurgy is a lot more difficult than those people realize.)

[tstop4me]

OK. Have you skated on both? If so, how do you feel the Gold Seal and Ace differ, from your point of view as a skater? Or do they feel about the same?

Are they in the same spot on the blade too? That's part of how I personally define aggressive - if you have a large roll distance from your usual skating position to reach the toe pick, then you are less likely to accidentally reach it (a little like a typical rental skate), that is non-aggressive - to me.

In the case of MK Dance, it is only partly the length of the picks. ....

Yes, I've skated on both; the feel is substantially different [I think I might have a previous post on it; if I find it, I'll post a link.].  As in another thread, your response above indicates that your use of certain terms is different from mine.  Don't want to hijack Bill's thread.  Further discussion to be deferred to a different [future] thread.

[Query]

As in another thread, your response above indicates that your use of certain terms is different from mine.  Don't want to hijack Bill's thread.  Further discussion to be deferred to a different [future] thread.

I've introduced another thread titled "Standardization of equipment terms within ice skating "

I'd love to see your definitions! The more definitions the merrier.