Have I had a bad sharpening?

[beginner skater]

Reminder: just had my skates sharpened by a hockey youth, who promised me he could do a good figure skate sharpen. I was able to watch, which was interesting, but in the course of watching, I learned he's been doing it for 6 months, having learned from watching his dad, he believes everyone should have a 1/2 " ROH, and that he has in the past sharpened a 1/2" ROH for people wanting something different, and was tickled that  they apparently couldnt tell.  A whole week to wait to see if I can still do anything at all on the ice

So quite lacksadaisical sharpener, not sure I will go back, even though an alternative sharpener is going to take a bit of effort

On the outside of both blades seems to be a longitudinal burr, ie I can feel a ridge along the edge, which is not there on the inside edge.

Should I be concerned? Will this affect my skating? Will it wear off if I do lots of FO consecutive edges?
I am not skating particularly well atm, and wonder if I can blame the sharpener 
Altho the 2nd skate was worse than the first post sharpening

[AgnesNitt]

Yes it sounds like a bad sharpening. Although to be fair, if he's sharpened for six months, he's had the opportunity to learn how to sharpen. Whether he has or not is a different matter.

You shouldn't try to fix it yourself.
Find a decent sharpener and get it fixed.

Your edges may be uneven. Do you get a machine gun sound when you stroke?

[tstop4me]

Reminder: just had my skates sharpened by a hockey youth, who promised me he could do a good figure skate sharpen. I was able to watch, which was interesting, but in the course of watching, I learned he's been doing it for 6 months, having learned from watching his dad, he believes everyone should have a 1/2 " ROH, and that he has in the past sharpened a 1/2" ROH for people wanting something different, and was tickled that  they apparently couldnt tell.  A whole week to wait to see if I can still do anything at all on the ice

So quite lacksadaisical sharpener, not sure I will go back, even though an alternative sharpener is going to take a bit of effort

On the outside of both blades seems to be a longitudinal burr, ie I can feel a ridge along the edge, which is not there on the inside edge.

Should I be concerned? Will this affect my skating? Will it wear off if I do lots of FO consecutive edges?
I am not skating particularly well atm, and wonder if I can blame the sharpener 
Altho the 2nd skate was worse than the first post sharpening

Longitudinal burrs are a common product of sharpening.  If the wheel is properly centered, a longitudinal burr is produced along both the inside edge and the outside edge.  Most sharpeners remove the burrs by a final hand honing with a flat whetstone.

In your case, either (1) the wheel was off center, producing uneven edges and a burr along only the outside edge; and the sharpener did not hand finish with a whetstone or (2) the wheel was on center, producing even edges and a burr along the inside and outside edges; and the sharpener did a sloppy job of hand finishing with a whetstone, removing the burr along the inside edge, but not the outside edge.

If (2), the sharpener can readily remove the remaining burrs with a whetstone, and you're all set.  I have a gut feeling though that (1) is more likely, and you'll need to go to another sharpener (especially since your existing sharpener has such a bad attitude towards his customers).  Unless the edges are badly out of whack, though, you need a special gauge to quantitatively measure how uneven the edges are.

ETA:  Just re-read your post.  You mentioned that you watched the sharpener go at it.  Did he hand finish with a whetstone?

[Query]

It matters a lot whether that burr is horizontal or vertical. Many skaters prefer to leave the burr in place, but redirect it vertical, to add extra sharpness.

But uneven burrs? That's bad. He should have noticed the problem, had he done even the most basic checks.

1/2" isn't bad. But it will feel significantly less sharp than 7/16", which is more common for figure skaters. On the other hand, with re-pointed burrs (also called over-burrs), it might be enough.

If it wasn't done by the shop manager, take it back to the manager, and ask him/her to fix it. Probably more experienced than some of the staff. I'd stay far away from your first sharpener.

Also, ask more experienced figure skaters in the area who they use.

[tstop4me]

1/2" isn't bad. But it will feel significantly less sharp than 7/16", which is more common for figure skaters.

Most likely, however, the actual ROH is much larger than 1/2".   A sharpener who uses the same ROH for all customers does so to avoid re-dressing the wheel:  less effort, less setup time, and longer service life for the wheel.  However, the wheel itself wears down with successive sharpenings.  If not re-dressed frequently, the actual ROH increases.

If it wasn't done by the shop manager, take it back to the manager, and ask him/her to fix it. Probably more experienced than some of the staff. I'd stay far away from your first sharpener.

The right guy to ask for will vary with the shop.  It's best to ask who [if any] specializes in figure skate sharpening at a particular shop.  Of the shops I've done business with, one is a small shop dealing only in figure skates.  The rest have been primarily hockey shops whose owner or manager is primarily a hockey guy.  Some owners or managers don't even do sharpening; if they do, they mainly do hockey skates.  Some other guy specializes in figure skates; he's the one you want.

[beginner skater]

There's no juddering when I stroke, just not very good at doing FO edges on the 2nd skate post sharpen, but it could be due to weak legs from too much sprinting.

Sadly I suspect the right guy to ask to be a guy at another shop. I kind of got bamboozled into it, cos I was asking at the rink, who arranged my previous sharpen by one of the coaches, and they dont do it anymore, and said there's the guy who does it now.

It's gonna take more organising to have sharpening elsewhere, might have to carry on skating to see whether I get back my usual skills, lol

He did put a u shaped gadget over the blades to check they were level at several points, I dont think he used a whetstone. Should I trust him to fix it?

[tstop4me]

He did put a u shaped gadget over the blades to check they were level at several points, I dont think he used a whetstone. Should I trust him to fix it?

I'd go elsewhere at this point.  Ask coaches and other figure skaters for recommendations.

[Query]

I dont think he used a whetstone.

Then the burr would still be horizontal. That side will likely act as though there is no edge, and skid very easily.  Any competent sharpener doing things right would use a stone. (Exception: If you use a coarse wheel, there sometimes is no burr - I've looked under a microscope. But a good sharpener wouldn't use such a stone to create the final edge.)

It's odd that he checked the level, yet didn't find the burr on one side. If the blades were level with the burr, they won't be after the burr has worn down a bit.

Please, let's be fair: not all hockey players are incompetent figure skate sharpeners. A conscientious sharpener who takes the time to learn his or her art, has been instructed well or learned well by other means, and takes his/her time to do a good job, can play hockey too. Just as he or she can be a good mechanic, scientist, engineer, or manager, or even a good figure skater or figure skating coach.

A sharpener who did what you mention wouldn't be a good hockey skate sharpener either. I think hockey players are typically MORE picky about edges in particular. At least they complain more. Where I play rink guard, a lot of hockey players go straight from the pro shop to the ice to test the edges, and take the skates back if they don't like them - much more common than among figure skaters. And far more hockey players learn to sharpen or touch up their own skates.

10 years from now, if he keeps at it, and gets appropriate feedback, your guy may become an expert sharpener. It would be nice to give him feedback about your edges, and show him what's wrong, so he can learn. But not so important that I would let him take another crack at your precious skates. He's like the inexperienced mechanic who destroyed my old VW van by lifting it by the exhaust system and the gas tank. Or the eye surgeon who damaged the vision of a relative's eye, and tried to correct it in a second surgery, blinding that eye altogether. Your skates are your babies , and deserve your loving care, and that of an expert sharpener.

[tstop4me]

10 years from now, if he keeps at it, and gets appropriate feedback, your guy may become an expert sharpener.

On the other hand, the kid's been trained by his dad to grind to 1/2" ROH regardless of what customers ask for and to smirk because most customers won't know the difference anyway.  Such disdain for customers will make him an expert sharpener for rental skates, not much else.  And that's assuming that rental skates ever get sharpened.

[beginner skater]

He did want me to skate on them, and let him know how they were, guess that's  the hockey thing. And I could give him some feedback, but I dont really like his attitude to customers and what they want (tho  have to be grateful for his candour), so it seems easier to make the trek to the other hockey place which is reported to do good sharpenings. It just entails an 1 1/4 hour drive to the city where the rink is, at a time when the rink isnt available for figure skating.

[skategeek]

On the other hand, the kid's been trained by his dad to grind to 1/2" ROH regardless of what customers ask for and to smirk because most customers won't know the difference anyway.  Such disdain for customers will make him an expert sharpener for rental skates, not much else.  And that's assuming that rental skates ever get sharpened.

Reminds me of the time I was vetting day care centers and one woman told me that some parents made specific requests about naps, feeding, etc., but she didn't worry about it because the kid didn't really need whatever it was.  Bye bye.  (Why would you tell a prospective customer that you don't do what your customers pay you to do?)

[Query]

If no one gives him feedback, he will assume his dad is right, and keep ignoring customer requests. How else but by feedback can he learn that his dad is wrong? Or at least that his dad is losing business. Probably including the o.p. But without feedback, he doesn't know it.

He will also have trouble breaking into the higher priced sharpener market, because that is mostly careful custom work.

BTW, one mistake some hockey-trained sharpeners make on figure skating blades is to take off too much steel, sometimes over .01"/sharpening. Most hockey blades are cheaper to replace than most figure blades, there is no toe pick to mess up the profile after too much steel is taken, and hockey play often creates deep nicks in the blades, so removing more steel makes more sense for hockey than figure skating. Usable blade lifetime is inversely proportional to the amount of steel removed on each sharpening, unless you break your blades, or out-grow them, so it is better to remove as little as needed to create good edges. Say, .003"/sharpening on a good powered machine tool, as little as .001" with good hand tools if you are very careful.

the other hockey place which is reported to do good sharpenings. It just entails an 1 1/4 hour drive

1.25 hours isn't a lot, by many skaters' standards.

Maybe the knowledge that a better sharpener will likely remove less steel, and your blade will last longer, will convince you they are worth the extra time and money?

O.P., if time matters to you all that much, learn to do your own. Unfortunately, last I knew, the most common good quality hand tool, the Edge Specialties Pro-Filer, isn't available in 7/16". Much like the bad sharpener, they nominally sell 7/16" sharpening tools, but by their own admission, if you call, they are really cut to 1/2"! They do sell 3/8", which is sharper. Though there is a significant learning curve, to record and maintain the original rocker profile, and keep the edges even. You will I've made home-made sharpeners at about 7/16" by gluing sandpaper to 3/8" dowel rods, and using a strap of leather or similar material to help me center the sharpener on the blade - but that requires an even longer learning curve, because it is harder to center that way than by using a gapped handle like Pro-Filer uses. If you learn to do your own, you will probably never go back. Not only is it cheaper to do your own, and may involve less driving, but you can get exactly what you want, can produce a sharper effective edge, and will probably waste less less steel per sharpening.

I admit that few figure skaters sharpen their own. Maybe I just enjoy learning to do stuff with my hands, because I wasn't taught to do that as a kid.

[beginner skater]

Skategeek, yes, but it's lucky that they do, and I fear that not telling is the easier fix, rather than the change of attitude to providing customers with what they are asking and paying for.

Query, I take your point, but see above.  The risks for me, are unpleasantness at the time of my intervention, or after, as the shop is at the rink, or being persuaded to allow him to "have another go" at my blades, none of which I  really want. And, possibly a revenge sharpening.

I'm not running a business consultancy, so feel ok about letting his business go its own way.

I dont want to sharpen my own blades, I had tremendous difficulty planing a box sides straight when I did woodwork at school

[tstop4me]

Unfortunately, last I knew, the most common good quality hand tool, the Edge Specialties Pro-Filer, isn't available in 7/16". Much like the bad sharpener, they nominally sell 7/16" sharpening tools, but by their own admission, if you call, they are really cut to 1/2"!

I don't think this is correct.  I don't want to sidetrack the original thread, so I'll start a new post.

[Query]

I don't think this is correct.  I don't want to sidetrack the original thread, so I'll start a new post.

I take it you mean this thread: http://skatingforums.com/index.php?topic=7339.0

And you are right - I remembered that the nominal 7/16" stones were actually 1/2", but, based on other's measurements, they were 3/8".