Boot Heel Height

[ls99]

Of all the discusssion on this forom, I have not seen any comments on the skating boot heel height.

As I watch some Russian Ice shows, one of my favorites is Povilas Vanagas.  I like his style of skating. As I do like his wife's style as well, Margaret Drobiazko.

Observing his knee bends, they are quiet deep. Closer observation of his skates and boots, it seems to me the heels on his boots are quiet bit taller than most others.

From a purely mechanical point of view, a taller heel allows for easier deep knee bends than shorter heels. As the ankle bend can be less for the same knee/thigh angle.  A casual example is  women dancing in high heels.

While rear cutouts on some boots can allow for good toe pointing, knee bends are limited by the ankle's lock angle, boot stiffnes etc.

Woul love to read expert skaters opinions on the subject.

BTW  I do understand that a higher heel moves the weight balance further towards the toes.

[Query]

Heel height interacts strongly with blade shape.

If you raise the height of your heel (or equivalently, shim the back mounting plate), that lowers the back of the blade, moves the point of contact with ice back, and raises toe pick off the ice.

Because I have flexibility issues, I looked at lowering the height of my heel, or raising the toe. But that drove the toepick into the ice. I would need a much different blade shape to pull it off.

Anyway, if you do want to try a higher heel - shim the back mounting plate (i.e., put some layers of tape between the mounting plate and the heel of your boot.) Those two things are  exactly equivalent, except in appearance.

[riley876]

Some people are limited in ankle dorsiflexion.   Especially when in hip extension.   A higher heel "cheats" any such limitation away.

Thought:  speed skaters have minimal heel, but they get insane amounts of knee bend anyway, though admittedly it is in full hip flexion.

[mnrjpf99]

From what I gather, Edea's have a higher heel and use a shorter blade, to make the "action" of the blade closer to the sweet spot (spinning radius) of the blade. I would think that you would have to have some good knee bend and good posture, to keep from being to far forward on the blade.
I am going to be trying out my Edea's for the first time this week. I think the heel will take some getting used to.  I admit that I am a little nervous. :0/
A couple of years ago, I was skating and started to lose balance. I ended leaning too for forward and caught my toe pic. Forward lean + toe pic + very hard ice = Badly bruised knee cap. OUCH! Lol

[Query]

What is the "action" of the blade?

[Neverdull44]

The higher heel forces you to keep proper posture.   It also placed me too far forward on my toe pick.   When i first did power pulls backwards, I had to relearn to step back off the toe.   It was so easy to scratch on all jump takeoffs, too.  Also, all backwards three turns took a little adjustment, as did spinning.  In all, it took a month or so for me to get back my camel spin.

Today, I go back to my old Harlicks.  My Edeas wore out on the inside - the tennis shoe interior does break down and has given me ankle tendonitis.  I had my Edeas for 2 or 3 years, and skate about 5-10 hours a week.    Plus, I have sweaty feet.  Despite airing them out every day, taking them inside, they do break down.   The Edea footbed wasn't as supportive as my Harlicks, and ended up costing me over $700 to get custom orthotics.     My plan is to probably order a new pair of Harlick carbon sole boots.   The sad part is that I love the blades that are on my Edeas, but they can't fit on my Harlicks.  So, this Edea experiment is probably going to cost me another $1700 in all ($900 in boots, $400 blades, and $400 in plane fair to San Francisco).  But, having feet that don't hurt is priceless.   :-(

[Query]

If you raise the height of your heel (or equivalently, shim the back mounting plate), that lowers the back of the blade, moves the point of contact with ice back, and raises toe pick off the ice

I should have been more clear. I was assuming you raise the effective height of your heels on your current boots - by shimming at the heel, and then keep the orientation of your foot the same. That physically forces the orientation of the rest of the boot and blade to change, creating the effects I noted.

But, as best I understand it, when you order a boot with a higher heel height, the boot maker will also typically "compensate" by slanting most of the foot bed forward more, create a stronger bend in the foot bed at the ball of the foot, and create a little more space above the toes in the toe box to allow for that ball-bend. The net effect is that you have to point your foot more, and it does the exact opposite of what I said, in terms of the blade and knees and ankles.

Of course, if you modify the effective heel height on your current boots, you could modify the insole to make the effective footbed more like what the boot maker would do - but ONLY if you have room inside the boot to spare, especially above your toes.

For that matter, if there is sufficient room inside the boot, you could raise the apparent heel height (by shimming with a layer of leather over the entire heel), but change the insole to keep the effective heel height the same.

I have wondered whether the interactions between heel height, insole shape, ball bend, blade shape, toe point, and knee bend cause people to experiment less. Because if you change one, you pretty much have to change the others all at once - so when people change one, they don't always get the results they hope for. Ideally, you should play with all of them at once, and understand how they interact. It's too many dependent variables for many people to experiment with.

I still believe a flatter more natural foot orientation makes sense - but everything else in the boot shape and posture would have to be modified to suit.

[Jenna]

But, having feet that don't hurt is priceless.   :-(

Boy, is that the truth.  I experimented with Edeas as well, but cut my losses well before you did.  Even with custom orthotics, the arch pain was too much and I didn't want to further irritate my plantar fasciitis.  I'm planning on trying Harlicks when I get the money for them. I hope they work as well as my beloved Klingbeils did.  In the meantime, I'm using my dance boots full time.

[riley876]

The higher heel forces you to keep proper posture. 

What actually IS proper posture, in terms of physics/biomechanics?

I've never managed to get a straight answer on this.  Everyone always either goes back to pure aesthetics (essentially proper posture is whatever looks good, which is entirely subjective), or just points to examples (e.g. try to skate like Peggy Flemming).   

What actually are we trying to achieve here?

- Obviously you have be balanced, both laterally and longitudinally
- Obviously you can't be at the very end of any of your ranges of motion, or you'll not have control
- Obviously you need to be upright during spins/jumps/turns/twizzles to minimise your moment-of-inertia
- Obviously you need to have joints in biomechanically favourable positions, i.e. so you can effectively recruit your muscles

So, assuming you have adequate ankle dorsiflexion and hip extension to deal with it (and no other odditites like massive forefoot/rearfoot varus), what's actually wrong with a low heel, in terms of achieving the above goals?   Did I miss some other goal? (other than mere conformity with historical skater's postures)

(I've gone up from a mere 10mm to over 30mm in my inlines, and I will admit it's biomechanically much better for me at 30mm, but I am an oddball, so I can't extrapolate my results... )

[ls99]

My original question is out of curiosity, not attempting to change heel hight on my boots.

I do observe that men's figure skating boots have taller heels than regular men's shoes. Women's  footwear rages from flat ballerina slippers to six in stillettos, thus no suprise for taller heels on their skating boots.

  Surely there is a reson for men's figure skating boots to have taller heels...  what would that be? And observing that some professional ice dancers like Vanagas use taller heels, must have some resaon for having it.

Clearly Figure skaters posture is far different from hockey players.

[riley876]

Surely there is a reason for men's figure skating boots to have taller heels...

Men's cuban heel latin dance shoes tend to have fairly high heels too  e.g. check out a certain Mr Brown rocking his:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5BL4RNFr58.  Though most guys I know in the swing dancing scene dance in effectively flat shoes.  Swing and latin aren't really all that different in terms of movements, yet male swing dancers typically wear (near) flats, but latin dancers very often wear high cubans.

And as you point out, ballet and skating aren't all that different either, and again ballet shoes are dead flat.   Go figure?   And no one is going to accuse high level ballet dancers of having poor posture (though perhaps the opposite could not be said for some high level freeskaters).

For me, the only take away from all this is that it's a very personal thing.  i.e. it depends on your ranges of motion and skeletal and muscular geometry as to what heel height will work best for you.   

[Query]

Of all the discusssion on this forom, I have not seen any comments on the skating boot heel height.

Incidentally, there has been some prior discussion:

  https://search.yahoo.com/yhs/search?p=%2B%22heel+height%22+site%3Askatingforums.com&ei=UTF-8&hspart=mozilla&hsimp=yhs-002

As to why we have high heels (one boot maker told me that most figure skates were designed to make the heels look higher than the heels of the foot actually are), could it just be Tradition? I.E., freestyle and ice dance figure skating have their own characteristic looks, just as Ballet, Ballroom Dance, Modern Dance, Contemporary Dance, Soft Shoe, and Latin Dance do.

There is one obvious advantage to having a raised heel, combined with an upwards ball-bend that a raised heel allows. The ball bend helps prevent the foot from sliding forwards in the boot. You could do that another way, by shaping the boot just right against the instep, but that would involve precise custom three-dimensional shaping of inside of the boot, and it might change as the boot broke in. (It's hard to shape things precisely that way at all times, because the boot has to allow for toe points and flexes...) But I don't think you need such a high heel or such an extreme ball-bend to prevent slippage. It is also possible that for SOME skaters, that upwards ball-bend makes it easier to jump, and/or makes it easier to balance spins.

[ls99]

Query, Thanks for the search link, will peruse. 

My initial guess I think is still valid.  A raised heel allows for stable deep knee bend without being limited by the  ankle's locking angle in dorsiflexion.  Seems most russian professional ice dancers' boot heels are taller than typical for other skaters. I looked  at about a dozen, including Zhulin's, who does mostly some real fine choreography, but does perform as well.

Thanks for all the discussions.  BTW if I ever get a definitive answer from some bootmakers I'll post.

[Query]

If I understand what you are saying, pointing your toes as required by high heels makes you bend more at the knees AND hips, in order to keep the vertical alignment between feet, hips and head that is expected of figure skaters. Which means it makes you over-use muscles all over to support yourself, and you will feel more sore.

In short, high skate heels are part of a grand conspiracy to create more pain.

[Nate]

But Edea heels aren't "high."  I've already gone over this in other threads, and I feel like redoing that would derail the thread. They are in line with other boots. What makes them feel high is the footbed profile, not the fact that the heels are that much higher (if at all) than other standard heels.

People say they're high based on what they feel, not what they technically are. That sensation is placebo in the majority of cases.

I've taken the boots apart. Calling the heels high is misleading, unless you're coming from boots with very small heels (maybe some Riedell models, or customs with a lower custom heel).

Some people, who may do well in the boots, may not consider them because of the misinformation.

The footbed has a steep incline over the arch and into the heel, which is good for mid-high arched feet, but the heel is integrated with that. This allows the skates to fit flatter feet, as well, since the drop off is less pronounced due to the slopped heel (so less arch gap, in many cases). This contributes to the skate being shorter and feeling like it has a very high heel.

Past the ball of the foot, Edea's footbed is almost completely sloped/on an incline.

This makes the heels feel very high, even when it's basically equivalent to the boots you've come from (and in some cases, even lower).

[Neverdull44]

Four days ago, I switched from my Edeas to my old, broken in, almost broken down Harlicks.   I will tell you 'how it feels' to be in lower heels.  My Edeas were higher, because I had a custom orthotic insert that added another 5 mm to it.   And, the pitch to the ball was more severe, which us ladies know the difference between a high heel with and without a platform sole.  Platform soles make a high heel feel less high.

In the Harlicks, I can feel more bumps on the ice.   Not sure if it's the heel or not, but Edeas dampen the jolt when you go over grooves.    No, I'm not tripping in my Harlicks, but that's a different feel to the ice.   

My three turns, loops, rockers, counters, and brackets are picture perfect in the lower heel.   I am not 'on my toes' at all.   I can do good three turns in my Edeas, and just passed the Adult Silver on my first try with high marks of 2.9's and 2.8s from 2 of the judges.  But, my three turns are now so darn perfect, they are unbelievably gorgeous, figure quality, no skids nor spoons, all 4 of them in every direction in the lower heeled Harlicks.  And, my loop would turn into a cursive r in the Edeas, but not in the Harlicks.  I know top skaters don't have this difficulty, but for me there was a marked improvement in the lower heel on my skating ability.   Even my jumps are not as scratchy on the toe pick.  But, I did also go down in the blade from a Pattern 99 to an old set of Coronation Aces that fit the old Harlicks.  So, the toe pick is smaller and there is a curvier blade in the mix.  This might be helping too.

Also, there is some side flexion in the ankle in the Harlicks, and not in the Edeas.  For me, that could allows me to do a deeper edge and have more feel over the edges (especially when I've messed around with loops).  I don't completely trust this new ability to go deep on an edge or put much acceleration in a spin entrance, in part because my Aces were ground too shallow and because of this ability to slightly side bend at the ankle is freaking me out a little.   (Brain games)

For whatever reason, I am also extending more and higher with my free leg when exiting jumps and spins in the Harlicks.  I am not sure why, because my 10 year old Harlicks are alot heavier.  But, I'll take the prettier exit!

[Jenna]

I stopped wearing my Edeas when I decided I'd rather stop skating than skate in them.  Now, I'm skating in my old Klingbeils until I can save enough to get custom Harlicks, which I hope will work as well for me as Klingbeils did. 

I also agree with the high heel analogy.  It's wearing a 6 in stiletto vs a 6 in platform heel.  The pitch is just too severe in Edeas for me.  I already am too toe heavy.

[tstop4me]

A couple of years ago, I switched from an old pair of Riedell Royals to Jackson Elite Suedes.  The Jacksons have a significantly higher heel.  The major effect I had was that when skating backwards I would rise up on the toes.  Didn't have this effect when skating forwards, however.  I had to relearn all my back strokes by strongly leaning back more.

I mentioned this to two skate techs, both of them coaches, ex-competitive skaters, and ex-pro skaters.  They told me that they had had the same experience.  But we couldn't come up with a reason why the stronger effect backwards than forwards.  Anyone else have the same experience? 

[tstop4me]

But Edea heels aren't "high."  I've already gone over this in other threads, and I feel like redoing that would derail the thread. They are in line with other boots. What makes them feel high is the footbed profile, not the fact that the heels are that much higher (if at all) than other standard heels.

People say they're high based on what they feel, not what they technically are. That sensation is placebo in the majority of cases.

I've taken the boots apart. Calling the heels high is misleading, unless you're coming from boots with very small heels (maybe some Riedell models, or customs with a lower custom heel).

Some people, who may do well in the boots, may not consider them because of the misinformation.

The footbed has a steep incline over the arch and into the heel, which is good for mid-high arched feet, but the heel is integrated with that. This allows the skates to fit flatter feet, as well, since the drop off is less pronounced due to the slopped heel (so less arch gap, in many cases). This contributes to the skate being shorter and feeling like it has a very high heel.

Past the ball of the foot, Edea's footbed is almost completely sloped/on an incline.

This makes the heels feel very high, even when it's basically equivalent to the boots you've come from (and in some cases, even lower).

I think the key parameter is the pitch angle.  This would the angle between the horizontal plane and an imaginary line between the ball and the heel of the foot. The pitch angle can be varied by changing the geometry of the exterior or the interior of the boot.

[riley876]

A couple of years ago, I switched from an old pair of Riedell Royals to Jackson Elite Suedes.  The Jacksons have a significantly higher heel.  The major effect I had was that when skating backwards I would rise up on the toes.  Didn't have this effect when skating forwards, however.  I had to relearn all my back strokes by strongly leaning back more.

I mentioned this to two skate techs, both of them coaches, ex-competitive skaters, and ex-pro skaters.  They told me that they had had the same experience.  But we couldn't come up with a reason why the stronger effect backwards than forwards.  Anyone else have the same experience? 

Yes, the last time I added 6mm to my heel, I experienced exactly this.   But ONLY on my left foot.   I'm still struggling with it actually.    I currently have an instinct to plantarflex (i.e. rise up onto the ball of my foot).  Particularly when on the inside edge.    I can feel the difference vs the right, as feeling like my ass is lower when on the right foot.   I've been spending an inordinate amount of time forcing this stupid autonomous reaction to go away.

I had thought it was just me, but perhaps it's related to physiology/neurology?  Maybe errantly hitting some of the same motor control circuits as walking or something?

[Neverdull44]

Had a lesson with coach today in my lower Harlicks.    I ordered an 'emergency lesson' because yesterday I bailed on almost every jump I tried.   The culprit was that I wasn't waiting long enough, especially on the loop jump.   In the previous boots (higher heeled Edeas with flatter Pattern 99), I rocked up to the toe quicker (which meant that my skating heel turned quicker into the takeoff position).  Now, I have to wait for the rock up (heel turn), while that is a split second longer because of the lower heel and curvier blade.  When I waited, I did a good loop and flip jump. (Lutz was off . . . so, hopefully next week that comes back)

But, my spins were really, really good.  Coach said I didn't have an "old lady" camel, had speed, revolutions and my sit spin was super low  now, in my Harlicks.   Back spin is wonky, and my free leg is open instead of straight down.   But, it's only been 5 times skating.   So, I'm further than I thought.

[Query]

But Edea heels aren't "high."  What makes them feel high is the footbed profile, not the fact that the heels are that much higher (if at all) than other standard heels.

I would claim the footbed + insole profile is ALL that matters to the skater, except for appearance issues. The apparent heel that other people see has no physical effect on the skater - it just makes the toe look more pointed, and looks more traditional - which is part of why the brands that I've looked at in detail make the apparent heel height difference between toe and heel larger than the internal footbed profile height difference.

[Nate]

Four days ago, I switched from my Edeas to my old, broken in, almost broken down Harlicks.   I will tell you 'how it feels' to be in lower heels.  My Edeas were higher, because I had a custom orthotic insert that added another 5 mm to it.   And, the pitch to the ball was more severe, which us ladies know the difference between a high heel with and without a platform sole.  Platform soles make a high heel feel less high.

In the Harlicks, I can feel more bumps on the ice.   Not sure if it's the heel or not, but Edeas dampen the jolt when you go over grooves.    No, I'm not tripping in my Harlicks, but that's a different feel to the ice.   

My three turns, loops, rockers, counters, and brackets are picture perfect in the lower heel.   I am not 'on my toes' at all.   I can do good three turns in my Edeas, and just passed the Adult Silver on my first try with high marks of 2.9's and 2.8s from 2 of the judges.  But, my three turns are now so darn perfect, they are unbelievably gorgeous, figure quality, no skids nor spoons, all 4 of them in every direction in the lower heeled Harlicks.  And, my loop would turn into a cursive r in the Edeas, but not in the Harlicks.  I know top skaters don't have this difficulty, but for me there was a marked improvement in the lower heel on my skating ability.   Even my jumps are not as scratchy on the toe pick.  But, I did also go down in the blade from a Pattern 99 to an old set of Coronation Aces that fit the old Harlicks.  So, the toe pick is smaller and there is a curvier blade in the mix.  This might be helping too.

Also, there is some side flexion in the ankle in the Harlicks, and not in the Edeas.  For me, that could allows me to do a deeper edge and have more feel over the edges (especially when I've messed around with loops).  I don't completely trust this new ability to go deep on an edge or put much acceleration in a spin entrance, in part because my Aces were ground too shallow and because of this ability to slightly side bend at the ankle is freaking me out a little.   (Brain games)

For whatever reason, I am also extending more and higher with my free leg when exiting jumps and spins in the Harlicks.  I am not sure why, because my 10 year old Harlicks are alot heavier.  But, I'll take the prettier exit!

Skates with lower heels or a flatter footbed balance you towards the middle of the blade. This makes turns easier. It makes backward skating easier (less toe-pick riding), and spin entrances may be easier as you won't pitch forward as much (easier to control).

Also, Coronation Ace uses the Pattern 99 profile, so this doesn't surprise me. When I was in Risport RF2 Supers, the incline was steep and I often felt like I didn't get enough pitch angle with that flatter profile on the boots due to where my balance point on the blade was set.

This completely screwed up the timing on all of my edge jumps, as well as my spins. I could do toe jumps in those boots, but I couldn't skate worth a darn in them.

When I switched to Jackson (moderately steep pitch), I had to switch from Infinity to MK Professional to skate in them. It uses a Gold Star profile, so I got more pitch angle and could do everything (and skate) from day one (after changing the blades out).

I think blade choice can also be a factor.

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[Nate]

I would claim the footbed + insole profile is ALL that matters to the skater, except for appearance issues. The apparent heel that other people see has no physical effect on the skater - it just makes the toe look more pointed, and looks more traditional - which is part of why the brands that I've looked at in detail make the apparent heel height difference between toe and heel larger than the internal footbed profile height difference.

I tend to agree with that.


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