Sno-Seal: is it really that important?

[lutefisk]

No doubt I'm setting myself up for a blizzard of replies branding me as a heretic, but I'm just not getting the point about treating leather soles of boots with Sno-Seal.  I didn't do that to my current Jackson Elites and didn't do that to the Riedell Gold Stars I had back in the '70s.  My experience is that boots wear out way before the soles need water proofing.  Having said that, if some sort of protection is necessary, why not sand the soles to expose the pores of the leather and then apply epoxy resin instead of Sno-Seal?  With epoxy there's no need for a heat gun.  Additionally, with epoxy one could further protect the soles by adding a layer of fiber glass or carbon cloth.  Either cloth would add only a couple oz to each boot.  Carbon would increase the stiffness of the soles as well.  In fairness, I must mention that my Jacksons came with some sort of black lacquer coating on the soles.  I can't remember the details of my old Gold Stars.

[Casey]

I suppose it depends on skating habits to a great degree.  I end up wiping water off of the bottoms and sides of my boots after each skating session - snow spray ends up melting on the boot surface, especially all over the sole.

Do your skates have natural unfinished leather soles from the factory?  If they come with lacquer or paint or some such, then it should be repaired using lacquer or paint or something that matches what they came with.  I think it's even more important to use a sealant between the boots and blades.

Raw leather soles take more maintenance to keep nice, but the advantage is that with proper care, it's easy to keep them nice, and they look phenomenal.  I have painted soles now and am not sure what sort of paint is appropriate to use to touch them up.  If I were to use Sno-Seal as a preventative measure, it would prevent any new paint from sticking in the future.  Son-Seal can be re-applied any time and protect any area that's worn thin.  When you damage or wear down the paint, it's a vulnerable area, which again could probably be mended with a bit of paint.  You could apply your own epoxy coating, but it too will end up damaged and needing repair.  I would be very hesitant to do that, because it would be difficult to ever remove and I doubt it would look very nice.

This is how my painted soles looked after about a year of use with no Sno-Seal...not exactly "good":



Not a great-quality picture, but this is what they looked like new:



It's hard to see in that picture, but the soles were actually quite water-damaged underneath and around where the blades attached - you can see dark areas around the sole plates.  The metal would get really cold on the ice and even when dried would attract some amount of humidity.  Plus the fitter did not use any sealant between the boots and blades, so water would end up trapped in there.

My more recent boots were done by a better fitter who used a silicon sealant between the boot and the blade, which is invaluable.  However it too should be periodically replaced by removing the blade, peeling it off, and applying it anew, as the boot will settle onto the blade a bit over time.

[nicklaszlo]

I never used a sealant.  The uppers break down first for me.

Perhaps the sealant is more important for those who skate in a humid climate.

[Casey]

Oh, here's a better illustration of the moisture damage I referred to:



Granted, I was done with those boots after a year and happy to move on to better ones, so it really didn't matter much.

[Matsumoto]

I think Casey has it right.  I believe that it's most important to keep water from getting in between the blade mounting plates and the sole.  On my daughter's first pair of skates, I didn't remove the blade on day one and waterproof underneath.  After 6 months, I found that a couple of the screws just wouldn't hold in the leather anymore and discovered that the leather was pretty broken down underneath the blade - no doubt from water getting trapped where it couldn't be wiped away.

Now, I always be sure to put a nice think layer of waterproofing between the boot and blade.  No problems since.

[lutefisk]

I think Casey has it right.  I believe that it's most important to keep water from getting in between the blade mounting plates and the sole.  On my daughter's first pair of skates, I didn't remove the blade on day one and waterproof underneath.  After 6 months, I found that a couple of the screws just wouldn't hold in the leather anymore and discovered that the leather was pretty broken down underneath the blade - no doubt from water getting trapped where it couldn't be wiped away.

Now, I always be sure to put a nice think layer of waterproofing between the boot and blade.  No problems since.

Don't get me wrong.  I'm a believer in preventative maintenance, but you'd think by now there'd be solutions other than slapping Sno-Seal on bare leather.  I saw a Harlick boot the other day that featured a carbon fiber sole.  I think the boot maker was emphasizing weight reduction (Harlick seems to have a rep for being a tad on the heavy side, don't know, never owned a pair) but it got me thinking about boot longevity. 

Related topic:  A fellow adult skater at our rink who comes from a down hill skiing background is somewhat surprised by mythology and rituals surrounding figure skate boot selection, fit and specially the dreaded break in period.  He claims that modern ski boots have none of the issues which we figure skaters constantly moan about. I have no benchmark for comparison. The last pair of ski boots I bought were all leather and had laces, so that tells you how long it's been since I've strapped long boards to my feet and pushed off down a snow covered hill.  But isn't good fit and support equally important with down hill skiing?  If so, why have figure skate boots lagged behind the technology?  Not enough demand?  Entrenched traditions? Masochistic tenancies?

[Casey]

Related topic:  A fellow adult skater at our rink who comes from a down hill skiing background is somewhat surprised by mythology and rituals surrounding figure skate boot selection, fit and specially the dreaded break in period.  He claims that modern ski boots have none of the issues which we figure skaters constantly moan about. I have no benchmark for comparison. The last pair of ski boots I bought were all leather and had laces, so that tells you how long it's been since I've strapped long boards to my feet and pushed off down a snow covered hill.  But isn't good fit and support equally important with down hill skiing?  If so, why have figure skate boots lagged behind the technology?  Not enough demand?  Entrenched traditions? Masochistic tenancies?

Figure skating is as much about artistry and appearance as it is about athletics.  Modern ski boots are hideous-looking.  Rollerblades are hideous.  Even most hockey skates are hideous.  They are all just becoming plastic clamp-on bricks.  I wouldn't skate if I had to have something that ugly strapped to my feet.  Many rinks have hideous rental skates now too (though this sort of makes sense to prevent theft, and because they are shared by so many people).  I love that this sport isn't so over-focused on only the athletic side of things and not the aesthetic side.  If I were to ski I would use the old leather boots.  My tennis rackets are wood.   I'll also never own a pair of suede boots again (which are what's shown above).  Ski boots can get away with more padding and not as good of a fit because your focus is just putting the long flat skis in an appropriate position, this is also true of rollerblades where a skater doesn't care much about where their weight is or which "edge" they are on.

There are modern light-weight designs available in figure skating these days (Edea for instance, though the Ice Fly design looks awful IMHO) if that's the way you want to go.  Personally, I'm a huge fan of having all-leather boots that are on the heavy side and cannot wait to replace my current lighter-weight aluminum-frame Paramount blades with solid steel blades.  My last steel blades had a solid toe plate and even in conjunction with all-leather boots I never felt my skates were too heavy.

Break-in period can be alleviated by having custom-fitted boots or a good fitter who can punch out the appropriate areas for you.  You can buy boots that are easier to break in, but the disadvantage is that they will never fit as well or provide as much support, and have a shorter lifespan.  If you want really good support and fit for the long-term use of the skates along with maximum lifespan, you deal with a short break-in period and pay more for custom boots.  With the latter option, break-in can be anticipated, but not dreaded.

With the Ice Fly design and Revolution-style blades which fit the modern-looking lightweight trend, your skates end up looking like this:



This will unfortunately probably catch on with the younger generation but I think I'll stick with more traditional-looking skates, personally!

[lutefisk]

Hey Casey, esthetics are fine! You go guy!  I'm more of a form follows function kinda guy.  If I ever find a pair of bricks that are comfy and, just as importantly, optimize my skating I'll buy 'em.  Whether or not they're ugly will be the last thing I'll worry about. This discussion reminds me of the ones I have about cars.  I own a little Austin Healey bugeye sprite.  It's a fun car to drive on a soft summer evening or on a crisp fall day.  It goes around corners like a bat outta hell (for the amount of horsepower available).  But practical? No.  I drive that little car maybe 200 miles per year.  The rest of the time it's in the garage under a dust cover.  I also own a 13 year old Volvo station wagon.  The Volvo sits out in all kinds of weather, starts instantly and gets driven over 20,000 miles per year.  Does the wagon have style, charisma, and charm?  Not much.  It's soulless, like a toaster.  Like a toaster, it rarely intrudes on my consciousness.  The sprite wins hands down in the esthetics dept.  When I drive by in the sprite, people whip out their cell phones to take pix of the little car.  Nobody gives the wagon a second look.  I doubt if anyone will be photographing my feet any time soon.  Getting back to the car analogy, the Volvo is the "sensible pair of shoes".  The sprite is the pair of Manolo Blahniks.  In terms of skate boots, my feet tell me I should be looking for the "Volvo station wagon".

[TreSk8sAZ]

Don't get me wrong.  I'm a believer in preventative maintenance, but you'd think by now there'd be solutions other than slapping Sno-Seal on bare leather.  I saw a Harlick boot the other day that featured a carbon fiber sole.  I think the boot maker was emphasizing weight reduction (Harlick seems to have a rep for being a tad on the heavy side, don't know, never owned a pair) but it got me thinking about boot longevity. 

I've always had Harlicks (except for one disastrous experience trying out another brand). Yes, traditional Harlicks tend to be on the heavy side. I just got my new lightweight Harlicks with the carbon graphite sole. It has a couple of benefits, one being that it's a lot lighter than the regular boots (I also got lightweight uppers). The second is that I don't have to waterproof the soles because the carbon graphite takes care of that.

On my old Harlicks, I did have to sno seal. Because I got my as just leather (no laquer or chem-glaze on them) I did have to worry about water damage. Even though I dried the boots off every time I skated, they still would retain some water if I didn't keep up the protection barriers. It only mattered when they were 2-3 years old, but the leather can rot if you don't take care of it. If you have paint or laquer or whatever already over the leather, it forms a protective barrier like the carbon graphite and I don't think you have to worry about sno seal as much. I don't know though, as these are my first non-leather soles.

[Casey]

Hey Casey, esthetics are fine! You go guy!  I'm more of a form follows function kinda guy.  If I ever find a pair of bricks that are comfy and, just as importantly, optimize my skating I'll buy 'em.  Whether or not they're ugly will be the last thing I'll worry about.

Well, I personally think that weight is overrated.  We're talking about a sport where you need a lot of leg strength - lighter boots aren't going to help develop that!  Also although it is at the very end of your leg where weight matters the most, the overall weight is not that much compared to, say, the weight of your leg, just the lower half of your leg, or even a severed foot.    Some people have done studies on skaters and not found any advantage to lighter-weight gear.

Inherent waterproofness is another story, though I still prefer a little maintenance cost myself.  Funny you should use a car analogy, because I have quite a few 70's/80's Mercedes (it became an interest during the time that I'd quit skating).  Some of them have a clear coat, others do not.  The ones that do not require periodic waxing to look nice, and just look old and atrocious if neglected.  But you can take the worst-looking car with badly-oxidized paint and make it look brand new in half a day with some detailing products and wax.  My daily driver until quite recently was a 40-year-old car with original paint that looked brand new as long as it was cared for properly.  Clear coats on the other hand look nice at first and require no maintenance, but end up peeling, yellowing, or otherwise deteriorating after they get a certain number of years old, and nothing can fix that except new paint.

I think that leather can be cared for and preserved for a very long time without a great deal of effort, and look great the whole time.  Water will not damage properly-cared-for leather.  If you want no-maintenance then a synthetic sole is better of course, but it's a tradeoff, and I don't think that a non-synthetic sole is impractical by any means.  You can have good aesthetics without being completely impractical.  I think that synthetic boots make a whole lot of sense for rental skates though, as they will not get the individual attention that leather would need and should be optimized for comfort on a wider range of feet rather than a good fit to a few.  The best rental skates I ever saw/used were I think made by Reidell, but were a soft fabric upper, plastic soles, probably some plastic reinforcement layer between the fabric exterior and padding inside, and were quite comfortable to wear.  I wouldn't want to own them and they would probably break down with intense use, but for rentals they were great.

For what it's worth, I quite like the appearance of old Volvo wagons, actually.

[TreSk8sAZ]

Well, I personally think that weight is overrated.  We're talking about a sport where you need a lot of leg strength - lighter boots aren't going to help develop that!  Also although it is at the very end of your leg where weight matters the most, the overall weight is not that much compared to, say, the weight of your leg, just the lower half of your leg, or even a severed foot.    Some people have done studies on skaters and not found any advantage to lighter-weight gear.

Having actually had both regular Harlicks and lightweight Harlicks, I can tell you I certainly feel a difference. Now, some of this may be because my last pair were too big and so there was a bit of dead weight there. But I have absolutely noticed a difference in my spirals, camel spins, and catch foots, as well as the ease of extension in general. I used to notice the weight of the boot, especially on my spirals for moves. Now I don't feel like I have this random weight resisting my leg. Even my coach has noticed the difference. I haven't noticed it on jumps as much, but mainly on my axel when I jump up it doesn't feel like my free-foot has this weight attached to it.

I don't think having lightweight boots decreases my leg strength at all. That comes from lifting and off-ice.

[Casey]

I don't think having lightweight boots decreases my leg strength at all. That comes from lifting and off-ice.

I didn't mean to suggest that it would decrease strength - rather that being on the ice doing spirals and such would be less of a workout in and of itself.  If you are doing proper off-ice exercises great!  I don't do any - I should but I never have and am not sure how disciplined I can be about it.  I rely on getting all my skating strength from skating itself, so if I skate in lighter boots I will not develop the same strength as I will if I skate in heavier boots.

Coming back to skating after years off, I don't have any problem getting my free leg up to hip level on spirals and camel spin attempts, but it is a strain to hold it there for an extended period.  It's also a strain to hold it there off ice in bare feet.  I still have enough strength to lift my leg to that position, but the stamina to hold it there is not what it used to be.  I can work on the stamina by doing off-ice exercises, or by skating more.  The latter is more attractive to me.  I should do off-ice exercises but realistically I just don't.

Anyways if you move from heavier boots to lighter boots they will initially feel better, but as your body adapts to them the advantage will diminish.  Likewise moving to heavier boots from lighter boots would feel difficult at first, but after an adjustment period the skating on either should be practically the same.  If you're needing to develop the strength it takes to do difficult jumps, I don't think that being acclimated to lighter boots would be a good thing.  At least that's what makes logical sense to me.

Are traditional Harlicks heavier than Klingbeils?  I thought both were all-leather boots and should weigh about the same.  Interestingly, Avanta (whose boots are based on the Klingbeil design) is utilizing a carbon fiber layer between the leather outer and inner layers to add stiffness reducing overall weight as not as much leather is required to deliver the same amount of stiffness.  I wonder if Harlick's lightweight upper option is the same thing?  Though I'm inclined to still want all-leather myself, I do think that this is a much better option than boots that change the external appearance as a compromise in delivering lighter weight.

[littlerain]

Casey, you are so disciplined about skating regularly that I bet you could get a regular off ice routine going. Just think, it'll help you on ice, and possibly much faster too! In any event, I'm lazy when it comes to any sort of exercise and skating has just gotten me doing a bit more off ice. Not a whole lot and not super consistent but definitely more than nothing lol

I wonder if our resident ski instructors can weigh in on the break in and maintenance of ski boots vs figure skates

[amy1984]

When I was at a much lower level, I don't think I needed sno seal.  It was put on once when I bought the skates (by the skate tech) and that was enough.  Now that I constantly knick the leather sole and skate more, I do think it's necessary.  I cover the knicks up and once in a while will do the whole sole.  The tube cost me 8 bucks (and it's far from empty after a few years) and it takes me less than half an hour to do the whole sole of both boots.  Minutes for spot touch ups.  Even if I didn't see the positives to it such as the soles not rotting (and I did notice that once) it literally costs me pennies and a couple minutes.  Why not?  Every tech I've known has rec'd it to be.  It's cheap and not time consuming.  Whatever.  I'll slap some sno seal on my skates.