Effects of blade height?; toe pick position?

[Query]

I was trying to understand why most people like figure skating blades that take them fairly high off the ice.

For most things, it seems like you would want to be lower down, for a lower center of gravity.

I've only come up with two explanations:

1. In Ice Dance, a deep leaned edge is considered attractive, and also gives you a little extra push on long extensions. If the blade isn't high enough, the boot touches before you can lean much. But freestyle skaters rarely lean deep enough for the boot to touch, so this doesn't explain things for them.

2. Being higher over the ice might help you vault higher into the air on jumps. I'm not clear on how you would figure out what height is optimal for this

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Likewise, I'm not clear how people decide how far forward the toe pick should be.

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Any thoughts?

[Nate]

You can do deeper edges in them, there's also more torque going into things like spins and jump edge entrances.

Lower Stanchion height does give better balance due to the fact that the blade plate is lower to the ice and there is less torque, but you cannot go as deep in an edge as with the other blades.

Good example of the two different types of blades is Pattern 99 (lower stanchion, shorter heel) and Gold Seal (higher stanchion, solid mounting plate for strength because the blade torques more).

As for the pick, different blade types may have different pick profiles.  The blades are mounted flush with the front of the boot sole.  Whether or not the skater likes the pick profile on the blade is a personal matter.  If they want a more pronounced pick, they can choose a blade with one (like a Pattern 99).  If not, they can get one that has a more subtle pick (like a Gold Seal).

However, you cannot get a Gold Seal with a Pattern 99 Rocker/Pick Profile (if you want the bigger pick but prefer the higher stanchion and longer tail, for example).  So, in most cases, what blade you choose may be a compromise in regard to what you may think is theoretically the "perfect" one for you/your skating style.

[Bill_S]

But freestyle skaters rarely lean deep enough for the boot to touch, so this doesn't explain things for them.

Any thoughts?

Hmmm... I've been considering taller blades to allow more lean. Take a look at the bevel worn on the side of my last Gold Stars...



The bevel is where the edge of the boot contacts the ice during a lean. If I lean too much, the boot will lift the blade off the ice and .... boom.

When my boots are new, I'll hit the ice (yeah, literally) a bunch of times until I find the new limits or until I wear-in another bevel. Maybe I should take a rasp to the edges of new boots. 

Edit: The blades are Coronation Aces. The boots are regular-width men's Gold Stars, not wide which would worsen the problem.

[AgnesNitt]

Hmmm... I've been considering taller blades to allow more lean. Take a look at the bevel worn on the side of my last Gold Stars...



The bevel is where the edge of the boot contacts the ice during a lean. If I lean too much, the boot will lift the blade off the ice and .... boom.

When my boots are new, I'll hit the ice (yeah, literally) a bunch of times until I find the new limits or until I wear-in another bevel. Maybe I should take a rasp to the edges of new boots. 

Edit: The blades are Coronation Aces. The boots are regular-width men's Gold Stars, not wide which would worsen the problem.

Your experience is called 'booting out'.

[Bill_S]

No wonder. I always land on my booty when it happens. 

[AgnesNitt]

No wonder. I always land on my booty when it happens. 

 

[Nate]

Hmmm... I've been considering taller blades to allow more lean. Take a look at the bevel worn on the side of my last Gold Stars...



The bevel is where the edge of the boot contacts the ice during a lean. If I lean too much, the boot will lift the blade off the ice and .... boom.

When my boots are new, I'll hit the ice (yeah, literally) a bunch of times until I find the new limits or until I wear-in another bevel. Maybe I should take a rasp to the edges of new boots. 

Edit: The blades are Coronation Aces. The boots are regular-width men's Gold Stars, not wide which would worsen the problem.

Yes. Gold Seal and Gold Star blades have a higher stanchion which would allow you to lean more without hitting the boot.

This also happens to me in crossovers so I'm considering going with that blade jus read of the Pattern 99 after I finish breaking in my new boots.

Seems like you have the same issue lol. I'm using MK Pro's currently.

Sent from my Galaxy Note 3 using Tapatalk.

[Query]

You can do deeper edges in them, there's also more torque going into things like spins and jump edge entrances.

OK. I'll buy that.

So it follows that if a person wants to do advanced moves that require a lot of torque, but isn't very strong, they would want a higher blade, because they can use the leverage to create the torque. Whereas a very strong person wouldn't need as much height, and could take better advantage of a lower blade to give better balance and quicker response - yes? (Just like Evan Lysacek preferred heavy boots because he has the strength and control that allows him to take advantage of the greater momentum they carry, but many other skaters want lighter boots to tire themselves out less, when jumping high off the ice...)

The blades are mounted flush with the front of the boot sole.

[/quote]

I don't buy that, or the other common claim that the length of your blade should be at or at most 1/8" less than the length of your outsole.

One of the boot fitters - I think it was Phil of Harlick - told me that for fully custom boots, Harlick positions the front of the outsole, so doing what you say works well for your particular anatomy and the type of blade you are using, and it is possible that is true for other boot makers - but not everyone gets fully custom boots.

Otherwise, there is no direct connection between the front of the outsole, and the shape of your particular blades, or your personal anatomy. Presumably most people perform best when the sweet spot (the transition point along the length between the main rocker, and the spin rocker) somewhere near or slightly forward of the ball of their foot, so they can balance on and easily control transitions across the sweet spot.

Mike Cunningham, a high end fitter/sharpener in our area, says he follows those contraints anyway (unless a customer requests otherwise) - but he frequently reshapes the blade to move the sweet spot to work well for the specific skater in spite of those constraints. That's because if he didn't follow the usual guidelines, many other fitters would claim he didn't know what he was doing.

If the goal of pick placement and height is to maximize how high or long the skater is launched into the air during a jump, it would depend on the individual skater's power curve (vs each point along his ankle range of motion), as well as the rocker profile.

If so, it might make sense for the pick to mount separately to the chasis, so that a skater could choose from a selection of picks with a selection of pick heights and placements. That would increase the weight (e.g., you need an extra staunchion to keep the same structural strength) a little, but it would let skaters adapt the equipment to their needs. (Incidentally, at least one blade designer, Sid Broadbent, has proposed adjustable height picks, but not adjustable forward placement. Regretfully, those blades are not yet generally available.)

[Nate]

OK. I'll buy that.

So it follows that if a person wants to do advanced moves that require a lot of torque, but isn't very strong, they would want a higher blade, because they can use the leverage to create the torque. Whereas a very strong person wouldn't need as much height, and could take better advantage of a lower blade to give better balance and quicker response - yes? (Just like Evan Lysacek preferred heavy boots because he has the strength and control that allows him to take advantage of the greater momentum they carry, but many other skaters want lighter boots to tire themselves out less, when jumping high off the ice...)


I don't buy that, or the other common claim that the length of your blade should be at or at most 1/8" less than the length of your outsole.

One of the boot fitters - I think it was Phil of Harlick - told me that for fully custom boots, Harlick positions the front of the outsole, so doing what you say works well for your particular anatomy and the type of blade you are using, and it is possible that is true for other boot makers - but not everyone gets fully custom boots.

Otherwise, there is no direct connection between the front of the outsole, and the shape of your particular blades, or your personal anatomy. Presumably most people perform best when the sweet spot (the transition point along the length between the main rocker, and the spin rocker) somewhere near or slightly forward of the ball of their foot, so they can balance on and easily control transitions across the sweet spot.

Mike Cunningham, a high end fitter/sharpener in our area, says he follows those contraints anyway (unless a customer requests otherwise) - but he frequently reshapes the blade to move the sweet spot to work well for the specific skater in spite of those constraints. That's because if he didn't follow the usual guidelines, many other fitters would claim he didn't know what he was doing.

If the goal of pick placement and height is to maximize how high or long the skater is launched into the air during a jump, it would depend on the individual skater's power curve (vs each point along his ankle range of motion), as well as the rocker profile.

If so, it might make sense for the pick to mount separately to the chasis, so that a skater could choose from a selection of picks with a selection of pick heights and placements. That would increase the weight (e.g., you need an extra staunchion to keep the same structural strength) a little, but it would let skaters adapt the equipment to their needs. (Incidentally, at least one blade designer, Sid Broadbent, has proposed adjustable height picks, but not adjustable forward placement. Regretfully, those blades are not yet generally available.)

Studies have been done and no specific pick type has been proven to offer any clear advantages over another in jumping.  They exist largely due to preference and skaters/coaches preferring/asking for them.  Jackson Ultima created their intermediate blade with cross cut picks because Coaches asked for it, not because they thought it was superior to the straight cut picks...

This is why skaters who wear Pattern 99s (Gracie Gold), Phantoms (Patrick Chan), Gold Seals (Adelina Sotnikova) can do all the Triple Jumps, and skaters can even do triples on Coronation Ace, MK Professional, and Eclipse Mist Blades.  That also includes Cross Cut and Straight Cut Teeth.  At the lower levels where technique may not be as great it may seem to matter, but with proper training it isn't that big of a deal.  Same with spinning.  There are great spinners who wear all types of blades.  I thought the Picks on my blades were too small, until I got properly fitting boots and tried a Pinnacle.  I didn't keep it, because the benefits of the blade weren't worth the cost over the almost brand new Pros I already have.

The bigger advantage on the higher end blades is not the pick profiles, but the construction of the blades and the materials used.  Side Honing, Tapering, Stanchion Heights, Hardened Edges, Heel Length, Rocker Size (Most Intermediate Blades are 7', which is less stable than 8' Rockers... though MK Blades are all 7' - but Elite Skaters generally use 8' Rockered blades), Rocker Profile.  Some do have hardened toe pick spikes that don't dull as much as lower level skates, which can effect security in jump take-offs (less slippage).  The higher end blades also tend to be stronger, use higher quality metals, some have solid sold plates (Phantom Special, Gold Seal/Star), some are lighter in weight due to design/construction (Paramount, Eclipse Titanium, Revolution blades).

If the skater prefers a bigger or more aggressive pick, they're often better off just getting a different blade with a different pick than putting in so much work to modify one with a smaller pick to work like it.  You'd have to destroy Gold Seals/Stars to give you a Pick that remotely feels like a Pattern 99/Phantom.  Much of that comes down to preference and not simply one being superior to the other.

I am of the *opinion* that proper boot fit and blade mounting matter TON more than the pick profile on the blade, or even the type of blade the skater is wearing once you move past the recreational blades.  I would still upgrade past Ace/Pro/Mist/Legacy once the skater starts working on Double Axel (which is usually right around or right before they start working on triples) because the higher blades DO have advantages.  I just think the Pick Profiles/Sizes are over-valued by a lot of people when choosing blades.

I get over 0.60 sec air time on my double toe/flip jumps.  More than enough for a triple and almost enough for a quad (maybe quadable for the Toe with technical improvements) using MK Professionals and that was in terribly fitting boots, as an Adult Male of not insubstantial weight and power.  I'm not afraid that the blades aren't high enough level for the triple, I'm more afraid that it will snap off one day from all the heavy landings - something I probably wouldn't worry about with a permanent mount on a physically stronger blade.

As for the heavier skates.  You're right.  But I wouldn't put a smaller, weaker, and especially not a growing skater in heavy boots if I had the choice; given my personal experience with them.

The stuff about changing the sweet spot or whatever has nothing to do with what I was talking about.  I'd buy a different blade that worked better for me before I did that.  And if I can find the sweet spot with my Problem Foot/Leg Anatomy and Bad [for Figure Skating] Habits carried forward from other sports, the number of people who would require such modifications (which you can get done in the factory by companies like Paramount, IIRC) is extremely minimal/niche.

[Query]

Do you have links to any of those studies?

Many high end people here believe that various types of side honing, tapering, and parabolic shapes have no significant effect on skating, though I've seen books dating back to the late 1800's speculating on the differences. Do you know of any studies that tested their effects? As far as I know, BTW, Ultima blades do not offer such things, yet are now quite popular. (Partly because Ultima offers pro shops a better profit margin than MK/Wilson.)

Are MOST elite skaters now on 8' rockers? MK lists a lot of very high end skaters using their blades, including Olympics medalists, presumably with 7' rockers. Plus, if you measure MK and Wilson main rocker lengths, they vary along their lengths by more than the 1' difference.

Many people on this forum think that there is no major difference between 7' and 8' main rockers; but that there is a larger effect from spin rockers and toe picks. I'm pretty sure that for me that is true for the difference between MK Dance and Ultima Matrix I Dance, which for economic reasons I am very reluctantly switching back to.

What you said about the thickness of the mounting plates of high level freestyle blades makes a lot of sense. What high level freestyle skaters do to their blades must be amazingly stressful, especially when they land wrong.

[Nate]

There's a significant difference between 7 and 8' rockers. Both have advantages and disadvantages. Most elites are in 8' blades. Some use 7' blades. I already listed Patrick Chan uses Phantoms on Edea Concerto boots.

Most JW, Ultima, Eclipse,  and Paramount blades are 8'.

Tapering and side honing has a noticeable impact on turns and edges. A lot of people rave about the ease at which they can do footwork on the Gold Seals due to the design of the edges.

Parabolic are for weight centering and with properly fitted boots it's almost unnoticeable. The boots will help your weight sit at the proper place. That has always been a gimmick.

Ultima supreme blades have side honing.

I tried the pinnacle. There was a difference in how easy turns were on my Pros compared to the larger rockers.

If you want more consistent blades buy from a manufacturer who uses computer tolerance control with high accuracy (which Ultima does IIRC).

None of this has anything to do with the toe picks, which is what I was mostly talking about. .

A lot of skaters buy the top end equipment because it's fashionable to do so. Ice Fly and Gold Seals/Pattern 99s on below Novice skaters, etc.

I'll have to re-find the articles because I didn't add them to my OneNote. I did a ton of research while waiting on new boots to decide if the blades were worth it, and made a few calls to some coaches I know. I had a lot of free time since I basically stopped skating to wait for them. I tried the Pinnacles. They aren't worth $400 to me.

The Ultima Elite or Freestyle is almost $100 cheaper (and can poll get a discount online since I know my size). I'm seriously considering those, but only cause I want the longer edge life they have, and the solid sole plates.

Sent from my Galaxy Note 3 using Tapatalk.

[irenar5]

I wonder how anyone can objectively test for the effect of a different blade/toe pick design, etc.

Comfort and ease of use reports are subjective, plus the skater would have to get comfortable with a properly mounted blade (and how long does that take?)  It took me over a month to get used to a completely new blade design.

After getting comfortable on one blade, the skater would have to do the process again... and again... and again... with multiple blades. Meanwhile, the skater would have to be fairly high level, so improvement in skating, while testing the blades and therefore better blade control can be discounted.
How many skaters would it take for the study to be meaningful?  Of course, the skaters would have to be completely unaware what blade they are using, so that blade name recognition does not play into the perception.

This would definitely be a great study for coaches!

At the end of the day, most skaters seem to have more problems with ill-fitting boots, not the blades.

[nicklaszlo]

I get over 0.60 sec air time on my double toe/flip jumps.  More than enough for a triple and almost enough for a quad (maybe quadable for the Toe with technical improvements)

My understanding was it takes about 0.2 seconds for each revolution with perfect technique plus about 0.1 ms to get in and out of position.  So a triple is about 0.7 seconds minimum and a quad is 0.9 seconds minimum.  Nobody has ever gotten more than 1 second of air time.

[nicklaszlo]

The amount of torque your leg can produce depends only on your strength, not the length of your blade.

A longer blade will make many significant differences, though.  For example, when picking in for a jump, you can reach further and therefore have both feet on the ice for longer.  Assuming perfect technique, this makes no difference in the height obtained by vaulting (that's determined by energy conservation), but it is easier to jump correctly if you have more time to perform the takeoff.  For spins I see less importance because the stanchion is nearly aligned with the axis of rotation.

I think boot clearance above the ice and blade weight are the most important concerns when choosing stanchion height.

[Nate]

My understanding was it takes about 0.2 seconds for each revolution with perfect technique plus about 0.1 ms to get in and out of position.  So a triple is about 0.7 seconds minimum and a quad is 0.9 seconds minimum.  Nobody has ever gotten more than 1 second of air time.

http://skatecoach.wordpress.com/2014/07/02/figure-skating-jumps-a-review-of-minimum-air-times-trevor-laak/

All Triples below the Axel are < 0.6 seconds.

The Triple Axel is right around 0.6 and Quads are only slightly more.  Some skaters may have more if they jump bigger.  Those are general (from their research) minimum airtimes for the jumps.

I've never heard of anything about 0.2 seconds needed for one more rotation and 0.9 seconds being needed for a Quad, and going through some of the footage on my PC, I cannot find a Quad from any of the current top competitors from Sochi that were that big.  The skater would be in the rafters.  Quads generally don't require much more than a triple axel because, frankly, they generally don't have that much more off-ice rotation than a triple axel, Lol.  They are quads, but most skaters Pre-rotate the take-offs and hook the landings (within acceptable limits, otherwise they get called for UR) so the in air rotation is much less than 4 revolutions, anyways.

In any case, the point wasn't to argue about what minimum Air Time top coaches like Trevor and Christy Krall have calculated through tons of Dartfish Video Analysis on Elite-Level atheletes doing those elements over the years.  It was to demonstrate the fact that "needing a higher level blade" or a bigger toe pick to be able to create and control the landings of bigger jumps or big multi-rotational jumps is largely a fallacy.  In the case of the toe pick, the fallaciousness is obvious because the Toe Picks of the Gold Seal/Star (JW/MK's highest blades) are rather small compared to a lot of other blades - even lower end blades.

Also, no one said anything about the torque having anything to do with the length of the blade.  It affects, Balance, Boot Clearance, and it can affect things like Spin Entrances and the entrance into edge jumps.  The difference means that you can get more lean on your edges, which affects how much entergy is generated in maneuvers that have to hook or change direction on the entrance (like a Spin, Loop, or Salchow jump).  The Lower Stanchion can limit the amount of lean (because the boot clearance is less) keeping that in check.  For people that don't necessarily require the higher stanchion, they can run into issues where they have to keep their edge entrances in check or they'll get overcooked.  Maybe Torque was the wrong term to use, but it was the easiest to get the point across.

Some skaters need the boot clearance, so a Pattern 99 may simply not be an option for them.  If you wear large, wide boots then you may not have a choice but to go with the Gold Seal because you need that.

I could probably get more speed/power out of my crossovers if I switched to them, since I'd be able to push more without my boot hitting the ice.

[Query]

Tapering and side honing has a noticeable impact on turns and edges.

Is this based on personal experience? If so can you be more specific?

If it is based on other sources, can you give them?

How did you/they distinguish between tapering and side honing vs other blade shape/composition differences?

Also, which type of tapering and side honing are you talking about? (E.g., "side honing" refers to many different forms of horizontal and vertical blade and blade holder width variation, in and out of the skate world. Tapering refers to a thicker middle than ends, as well as to one end thicker than the other, both of which are specific forms of side honing.)

Ultima supreme blades have side honing.

As it happens, I have a set of Ultima Matrix-1 (old-style) chassis, with Supreme, Dance and Synchro runners. I just took a bunch of technical measurements.

Yes - the Supremes have side honing!  - the honed portion of the runners (the working part of the blades) are several thousandths of an inch thicker in the back than the front. I was never a good enough skater for this to be nearly as obvious as various features that annoyed me - I'm not a freestyle skater - and I only used those runners for a few weeks. But I am embarrassed I didn't notice this. (None of my runners have any form of vertical side-honing.)

None of my Ultima Dance and Synchro runners have any form of side honing, but the chassis (the part that holds the blades and interfaces them to the boots) have horizontal and vertical side-honing - which has no impact on interaction with the ice, but may have made the chassis lighter.

[nicklaszlo]

Nate:  I was talking about stanchion length.

I was also thinking of dartfish measurements.  Perhaps my remembered numbers were wrong.

.9 seconds is less than a 1 meter vertical jump, not "in the rafters".  .6 seconds is 44 cm.

[Nate]

In the rafters was just an overblown way of saying... the jump would be incredibly high.

Yeah I wasn't talking about the length. Only a small portion of that is on the ice at a time. It's the height and the effect it has on body lean and edge depth I was more concerned with.

I've never seen a quad at 0.9 sec air time. Most quads are very similar to triples, just much tighter in the rotations and a much quicker snap.

Sent from my Galaxy Note 3 using Tapatalk.

[Query]

I've begun to wonder whether a significant part of personal blade preference isn't something as simple as where the standard mounting places the sweet spot.

In other words, if you place specific new blades on your specific boots, so that the front of the blade mounting plates, with the offsets that work for you, are at the front of the boots, or that re-uses your old mounting holes, that will place the sweet spot of the blades at very specific spots (on each foot).

If that spot is "wrong" for your ability to control balance, turns, spins, jumps, etc., you may feel that some blades are awful. When in fact, a modification of mounting points might completely change your mind about which blades are good.

(So would the re-profiling of your blades to move the sweet spot that a few expert sharpeners sometimes do.)

Maybe people's snap judgments of blades really is sometimes that simple...?

I'm currently testing whether that is true of my unhappiness with Ultima blades.

[Nate]

Well. That goes back to what we were talking about earlier. Rocker length and profile are a bigger factor than tor pick size or how much it sticks out. Unless finances are an issue, it's usually better to buy a blade that works better instead of modifying the profile - esp. if you use more than one sharpener.

Additionally, MK and JW blades are notorious for inconsistency. Some JW blades have been measured at close to 6' Rocker when they're advertised as 8'  (MK is more consistent, generally, and the fact that the blades are 2-3 radius were accounted for), and there have been inconsistent heel lifts and rockers even in a pair of blades from them. How well you feel on the blades can deviate from pair to pair, even. It may not even be the blades, per se, you may just have a lemon blade or two. My MK Pros have lumps on the side of the blade, etc. They are not a well made pair.

I'm in the market for blades and may get the Paramount Gold Star equivalents. The profiles and pick patterns are licensed, but Paramount are more consistent than MK blades are. You can have them put a bigger pick on them if you want.

Sent from my Galaxy Note 3 using Tapatalk.

[Bill_S]

Oops, replied to wrong thread!

Post deleted.

[Casey]

Hmmm... I've been considering taller blades to allow more lean. Take a look at the bevel worn on the side of my last Gold Stars...



The bevel is where the edge of the boot contacts the ice during a lean. If I lean too much, the boot will lift the blade off the ice and .... boom.

When my boots are new, I'll hit the ice (yeah, literally) a bunch of times until I find the new limits or until I wear-in another bevel. Maybe I should take a rasp to the edges of new boots. 

Edit: The blades are Coronation Aces. The boots are regular-width men's Gold Stars, not wide which would worsen the problem.

My Graf Edmontons ended up looking like that even with the higher stanchions on MK Gold Stars. I love deep edges. I think my Klingbeil's came with bevels pre-made in those locations. I don't think it's a matter of "more skill needs less height" - deep edges that nearly compromise the boot edge take skill to hold.

Ultimately, I think higher stanchions are a definite advantage for my skating style though perhaps they add weight.