questioning value of group lessons for shy youngster

[fortune8]

I'm at a bit of a cross roads with scheduling and budgeting.
I'm toying with the idea of dropping my youngest skater's group lessons (ie: not signing her up for the next term).
What's everyone's thoughts about the pros and cons of group lessons for beginner skaters (learning backward crossovers, etc).

[hopskipjump]

The best thing is connecting with another skater so they can have fun during practice sessions and look forward to future classes.  Otherwise a private lesson trumps a group lesson in terms of learning! 

But I feel entering a group and learning to manage is a life skill that is more than skating.  Dd has always taken group lessons in conjunction with privates.

Now that my skater is off ice indefinitely, I can see she learned so much on the ice that has nothing to do with the ice.

[jjane45]

I always recommend complementing privates with group lessons. How frequently does she get privates and how frequently does she practice? How old is she now?

A very beginner should not require privates to progress, although privates will usually make the process faster and smoother. Did she express discomfort with group lessons? Is the group too crowded or ineffective?

The pros: lower cost, support from fellow skaters, friendship and fun, broader perspective if taken from a different instructor

The cons: lack of personal attention if group is big, coach may not be the best fit in teaching style, rigid schedule, conflicting instructions if taken from different instructor, feeling of getting stuck when compared to fast learners, oops

There was a brief period when I just had privates and was not able to take groups, it felt lonely.

[hopskipjump]

"feeling of getting stuck when compared to fast learners"

But isn't it better to learn this in an inexpensive setting like a group lesson?  There will always be the girl who learns faster.  The important thing is to not worry about her and to learn to not be discouraged and keep at it.

At this level (learning crossovers) and age, it isn't so much as the class or privates, it's TIME on the ice.  And what gets them to go on a non lesson day is they are either internally driven to practice or they might see "their friends".

[jjane45]

Re: comparison to fast learners. Being in the same group puts skaters in direct comparison if not some type of mini competition, which could be positive or negative. I assume each kid reacts to this differently.

[fortune8]

She's only just turned 5 but has been skating for a year.
For her, ice time alone was enough to learn basic stroking, slalom, glides, stops, etc so a weekly group lesson was just fine for ages.
She started sharing lessons with big sister before Christmas (minus a couple months rink closure) and I credit that for her pretty forward crossovers and the like.
Going forward, she can do 2 privates (15+30) and one extra practice on a different day if no group lesson.
I think the one thing she's gotten out of group lessons so far is speed (she doesn't like all the big kids to "beat" her).
But she's very shy and hates for an unfamiliar instructor to speak to her directly. And she hasn't really made friends at the rink at her own level.
Just toying with the pros and cons of whether she'd get more out of just doing her own thing for a half hour or more (she's good at keeping herself amused and staying out of other skaters' way); or whether it would be better if she's directed to practice certain things with a group even if she's standing still most of the time (waiting turns or just too shy to join in).
I started off favoring group because of the social skills thing ... until I came across a blog post from xanboni where she says she's there to teach skating not social skills. It's a valid point.

[FigureSpins]

I disagree.  I think that encouraging friendships and sportsmanship is always a coach's job, even in group lessons.  I always introduce skaters to each other and suggest things that they can work on during practices, separately or together.   Fun and friendships are the key to preventing burnout so lessons should build that as well.

If your daughter has social issues, isolating her with privates only will only make them worse.  Many shy but sweet kids are viewed as standoffish and snooty by other skaters.  In group lessons, the instructor has to know how to manage her class and ensure that the wallflower doesn't get overlooked or forgotten.  Unfortunately, not all teachers can do just that.

Take a break from group LTS but weigh the costs carefully.  It might be worth the class for whatever practice time it includes.

[AgnesNitt]

But she's very shy and hates for an unfamiliar instructor to speak to her directly.

Does she scream for you and skate away cowering in terror? Because that's what 'hates for an unfamiliar instructor to speak to her directly' means to me. Then pull her from the class. You shouldn't torment a poor coach with a child like that.

Does she stand there silently and look down at the ice? Leave her in. It's good prep for the terrors of first grade. 

And she hasn't really made friends at the rink at her own level.

So? If they're older/better it's good. She's developing social skills above her age/skill level. If they're younger/lowr, it's good. She's playing with other children and as the oldest/better she gets to be bossy--which counteracts the shyness.

(she doesn't like all the big kids to "beat" her)

That strikes me as definitely not shy.

started off favoring group because of the social skills thing ... until I came across a blog post from xanboni where she says she's there to teach skating not social skills. It's a valid point

I'm relying on my memory here, but I thought she was writing about kids with severe social impairments. I'm not a coach but I think quiet/shy kids must be in the spectrum of 'things we deal with every day'.

[fortune8]

She's lucky in that the bigger girls at the rink are lovely and welcoming to her so she does have a few older skating friends in higher levels. But sometimes she will still shy away from even the nicest of them if they're loud or catch her by surprise. Unfortunately I do think she comes across as a bit snooty.
ATM most of the other skaters in her level (group class) are boys - and she's having a boy germ phase (sigh).
She kind of does cower (hides her face in the barrier) for the first couple of weeks with each new instructor - but silently so (she's trying to avoid attention rather than attract it). Even after a few weeks it tends to still cost the instructor more time to try to engage my skater than the others (actually there's a boy who's a bigger pain of a different sort but live and let live I guess).
I've been wondering how she'll transition to first grade next year too. I'm still wavering about whether LTS group is a great chance for her to develop or just tormenting her and unfair on the other skaters.
PS: It seems a contradiction to me too, that she's so keen to compete solo and so competitive with other children in class (with her feet not mouth thankfully) and yet so shy when spoken to. But that's how she is just now.
Anyway, I really appreciate everyone's thoughts.

[fortune8]

Sorry meant to acknowledge another contradiction - she really doesn't want to be spoken to be a strange instructor, but it's part and parcel of being on ice at that moment so she doesn't resist going to LTS - just resists the 'being spoken to' part. If there was no ice under her feet, she'd likely try to run away from the class.

[blue111moon]

Sooner or later she's going to have to learn how to speak up for herself in a group.  I'd leave her in the group and just keep explaining that hiding when the speken to isn't the best way to get the instruction she needs to keep up with the other skaters.  Putting her in privates may help her skating but it won't do anything to help her interact in group settings, which is something she'll have to face a lot more often as she grows up.

[jjane45]

Have you spoken to the group coaches who worked with her? They would know if her shyness for age 5 is normal in their experiences. If they feel she will be fine, I'd go with keeping her in groups.

I think learning a difficult activity (skate) and social skills at the same time could be challenging. Maybe you can find a less intimidating environment to develop her social skills?

[supra]

I'm 21 and I still don't really like being in group environments. But I also have NVLD/Aspergers. I'm gonna be a bit dissenting here and more or less say no to group lessons if she's having trouble making friends and whatnot.

It more comes down to what she wants out of skating. Obviously she's like 5, so there's that, things change when you get older obviously, sometimes shyness is grown out of, etc. Does she wanna just skate for the sake of skating, or skate for the sake of friends? Like I remember as a kid, I really liked baseball, as a sport. I'd go home and practice throwing a baseball and batting by myself for hours at a time everyday. I liked baseball as a sport, but socially it was really hard for me to handle. A self paced individual sport would have been much easier for me to handle, and I'm doing relatively well skating now just teaching myself/asking people for advice and reading and watching a lot. Part of what stresses me out in group learning, especially for athletic stuff, it just always takes me more time as the visual spatial processing part of my brain isn't that good, so I CAN learn things, just it takes longer, and you don't feel good when everyone else in the group is flying ahead of you and you're taking forever. So if your child is super excellent verbally (I remember in kindergarten I scored 12th grade reading level, but only like 4-5th for math) and not as good in visual and spatial things, that might be something you wanna look into.

So it depends on her personality. If she's got a good work ethic alone, then use that work ethic, if she's willing to, say, do 3 turns for 5-10 minutes at a time in one spot on her own, just drop her off in public session and let her do that. If you know someone that can help her and give her advice for "the basics" that's not necessarily a coach, or even yourself or an older skater there you trust, she could go pretty far.  Later you'd need a coach or real lessons, but if she doesn't like the group lessons, then eventually she won't go, so even if it'd be possible for her to progress quicker in the group, if she quits because of the shyness, then it's for naught anyway.

Lots of people don't really care about the sports they're doing, and just want to use it as a way to connect with people, and some people (like me) are the complete opposite. So, if she hates group lessons, but still likes skating, then let her skate alone and get the ice time in. I know me personally, I do well with the least amount of pressure possible, and being in any kind of group just adds pressure, so I prefer to do things alone. As far as conquering her shyness and being able to better connect with people, maybe skating could help that, but if it doesn't, then she'll stop skating. So you gotta look at it in the balance of that. Socially things may be too hard for her, and she may want to "quit skating" but, she might not actually want to quit skating, only the hard social part. I quit a few sports when I was a kid just because the other kids and I didn't get along, I still liked the sport, but I didn't like the social atmosphere behind it.

So that's my opinion. I'm not saying withdraw her, but if she's having trouble, that could be the thought process behind it.

EDIT:
Oh....she's got older friends. Yep, exactly like me. My whole life I've always gotten along better with older people. Even now I know like one other skater my age at the rink and then the rest of the people I talk to are all like over 30 (I'm 21) with most being in their 50s. For some reason I have very little anxiety around older people and a ton around people my age, and it's always been that way.

[fortune8]

Lots of food for thought. Thanks everyone - I really appreciate it.

[Schmeck]

Please don't fall into the 'avoidance technique' trap by pulling her from a group situation. It will be a situation that never improves if she doesn't get the time to actually work on her issues.

Set small goals for her during this time - little steps like looking at the coach's face for 5 seconds, etc. Limit her time at the boards (talk to the instructor about this) and give the instructor some sentence cues to use, if you have any that you use.

My oldest daughter used to not be able to tell when to stop escalating a situation - so we came up with the phrase 'get off the escalator', which was her cue that the situation was getting out of hand and it was time to stop. Glad to report that she ended up just fine, skating all through high school, a few sectional medals hanging in her bedroom.