Replacing Boots on a Tiny Budget

[JimStanmore]

When I bought my Jackson Freestyles last Fall, the fitter suggested I get an 11.5 instead of 11 to allow for the width of my feet because only mediums were available.  Even though I wore 10.5 when I skated for a couple of years decades ago, I went with the suggestion.  Heat molding and mainly MITF helped me not notice the problem until January or February, right before I started competing.

Wobbling, heel slippage and all the other too-big boot problems started happening. ::sad  Intense heat molding and extra insoles only added blisters and cramps to the mix; can you say 30-45 minutes to get everything applied to skate comfortably and successfully?  I have never had those after years of hiking and other stuff in properly glove-like fitting gear so, I had to loosen them up a bit and live with wobbliness.  If you were to look at my competition videos, you would see the boot collapsing on some landings that I rescued by having spent a lot of time working on deep edges. I have been trying to master spins with wobbly boots and it is very frustrating. :bash

Now I am at the point that ANYTHING that fits right will be better than what I have - I skated in glove leather boots when I skated before.  The problem is my current budget is temporarily very small and I have got to get in Pre-Bronze and Bronze tests before the Adult Nationals deadline to meet my personal goals for the year.  That means I can't wait for the financial upturn in a couple of months.

New Jacksons are out of my price range except for Mystiques.  New Riedells in my budget include 110,115 and, 117.  Even though I said anything that fit will be good, my male Sam's Club gene flares up at spending that kind of money on something I will beat to death in a few months and probably won't support me long, anyway.  Plus, some have PVC soles.

Ebay has not been helpful in my size, but craigslist has some things:  Riedell Gold Star ($150, size 10.5,)  Riedell 220 B (Silver medallion, $40, size 11,)  Riedell 320 B ($95, 10.5)   BTW, My toes are just short of the Riedell 11 and are at the Jackson 10.5.

So, my question really is: will the Riedell 220 B's last me a couple of months?  The price is great if they will work.  Silver Medallions were a bit expensive, but only rated to Basic 6 with stock blades, higher when up-bladed.  The Gold Stars seem to be quite a deal if I can get my foot into them, but that is a big if.

(6'2"", 201 lbs, just got nice used Ultima Freestyle blades.  Single jumps: all except Lutz and Axel.  Spins: iffy scratch and back wiped out temporarily by new blades, working on sit.  MITF: Working on double 3's, twizzles, brackets, counters, rockers, edge pulls, loops...)

Any opinions or comments on the issues I have mentioned are welcomed and encouraged.  Also, feel free to send me any extra Elite Plus 10.5's you may have lying around the house  

[Sk8tmum]

YOu'll break down the Silver Medallions very quickly. I would think that the Gold Stars, even, would be light for you. DD was put into the Gold Stars and broke them in easily when 5'7" and 135 pounds, not near the size you are going to be putting into the boots. What's the width on your Craiglist ones?  That's going to affect you too.

I will also note that she wears a Ladies Size 9 in shoes, and a 7-1/2 in Riedell skates. There seems to be a discrepancy in the shoe vs skate size with Riedells, she's not the only one who has had this occur.

The other Riedells you mention .... my then 35 pound other daughter broken in the 117s in two weeks. Don't think they will work for you at all.


I have seen Elite Plus on sale, but, not in your budget; local store has them at $374 Canadian.

[JimStanmore]

Sk8tmum, that's exactly what I was afraid of.  I have the bad feeling that I am going to have to sacrifice $250/$300 from lessons, dues and entry fees or put my progress on hold.  I have done enough other things to know that I don't want to learn bad form that I have to spend time unlearning later.  Correctly fitting Freestyles would last me a while, but I was hoping to move up in boots if I was going to spend "real" money.  This is just not a choice I expected to have to make - gotta love the recent economy.

I think I will expand my question to what do y'all think I should do/get?
(It is fascinating that I find Riedells reduced frequentlu, but rarely find Jacksons...)

[Sk8tmum]

The GoldStars are on sale because they are out of date models.  So, you are getting them at at discount. Jacksons are on sale around here, because they have updated the Elites and Elite Plus and that.

[Sk8tmum]

There's also that blade issue. If you want to use the blades, you'll need to be sure that the blade will fit. The length of the actual boot will vary ... you don't want to end up with having the blades not fit, because that will mess with your budget even more. 

[JimStanmore]

ITA with the blades.  Actually the blades are sized correctly for a new, smaller boot.  FWIW, I just found some SP Teri Pros that look interesting.  The only issue is the circumference of the ball of my foot.  Gotta go check that again.  It is funny that you mentioned the blade length because my blades are the recommended length for the SP Teri.

[JimStanmore]

The ball measurement is right in the recommended range.  AA heel and A ball.  I think that will help the heel slippage.  Any comments on SP Pro Teri's?

[MimiG]

I've known a few kids in Pro Teri's over the years, most of them working on singles, including axel, and maybe double sal/toe. I don't know if they'd hold up for an adult skater or not, though...

[JimStanmore]

Just got my SP Teri's today and my first impression was tiny concrete blocks.  I was spoiled (in a bad way) by my too big Freestyles - these hurt when I first put them on.  After a few minutes on my feet they loosen up.  A good thing is that the heel is nice and tight.  I haven't heat molded them yet so, the heel cup is actually too tight to push my heel all the way back, I can fit a pencil down the back easily.  Since this is causing my toes to touch the front of the boot I am paranoid to heat mold because I may have to send the boot back.

The ankles are also an issue - Jacksons have ankle pockets and these don't.  The right ankle bone is OK, but the left one is throbbing after 5 minutes sitting in the boots.  Punch time.  I am doing the technique of putting them on and lacing them up kind of tight.  I then sit with them on for about 15 minutes and then take them off and wriggle my toes and ankles for a few minutes.  When these are broken in they are going to be great glove-like skates (I hope.)  The ball measurement was within range, but I feel a lot of pressure on the outside of my left foot.  Probably punching time again.

Guess it is time to stop the do-it-yourself and take them in to the skate fitter.

BTW, if anyone is interested the sole of the size 11 Sp Teri is about a whole inch shorter than my size 11.5 Jackson Freestyle sole.  There is a 3/4" difference in the insoles. (Yes, my toeas can move freely in the SP Ter.)

[Isk8NYC]

Congratulations!

Yes, get thee to a fitter.  If you want to triple-check the size, pull out the insoles and stand on them with your heel at the back edge.  See if your feet hang off the sides or where the front pinches.  They're probably dried out, so you need to sweat 'em up a bit so the leather softens.

Just sit in them with your knees bent or stand in place/bend your knees.


HOWEVER, DO NOT WALK AROUND IN BOOTS WITHOUT THE BLADES ATTACHED!!!

It pulls the sole away from the boot for some reason.  Don Klingbeil gets...abrupt...when someone starts to stomp around in newly crafted boots without blades.  His dad was the same way.  A member of the old board "broke in" skates by walking around (and up/down stairs) without blades and within a year, the soles had separated at the heel.  I think the blade screws provide some structural support for the layers of leather.

SO DON'T DO IT OR YOU'LL VOID THE WARRANTY!!

Pictures!  We want pictures!
http://skatingforums.com/index.php?topic=101.0

[JimStanmore]

The insole is the first thing I did and my foot fits with an 1/8" at the toe.  It was tempting to walk in them, but I've read to many warnings about that and I stayed sitting.  I did stand a couple of times to see if my toes got more cramped, but no steps.  I didn't know about pulling the sole away, I was more concerned with putting a bend in the soles because my blades have two plates and not one continuous one.

Good info on the warranty stuff and I forgot about pictures.

EDIT:  Pics posted:  http://skatingforums.com/index.php?topic=101.msg3702#msg3702

[JimStanmore]

The blades were put on last night and the boots had their first heat molding yesterday.  Today was day 1 on the ice.  As I hesitated about stepping on the ice with them I realized that I used to go to an ice rink, slap on rentals and start hopping all around so, of I went.  I was surprised and starting getting smug because I was able to do turns and my baby loops after a couple of circuits.  The smugness went away when I realized I hadn't laced the top three (of five) hooks.

After I laced to one from the top, things changed - I was wearing concrete blocks!  I started trying to bend my knees deeply which seemed to be working until I looked down.  The laces were stretching and the boots were not flexing at all.  Fortunately I read a couple of places to get off the ice, remove the boots and flex my feet every 15 minutes or so.  That is probably how I avoided the blisters and raw spots I got when I tried to heat mold my Jacksons to a glove fit.

The good thing is that I realized I had been really bending my knees before.  The bad thing is that I was skating like a new skater because I couldn't bend those boots.  I also realized I was skating on my heels and it felt really strange when I tried to push the ball of my foot down.  I think that was because the ankles were so "supportive."

I was wearing my knee pads but I forgot my hip pad shorts and it seemed I would get by.  With about 25 minutes left in the session I was approaching the boards to do the boot removal thing and, wham.  A beautiful face planting slide caught me off guard - those big drag picks both grabbed at the same time.  I immediately got up and no knee pain, but I had automatically done a slight roll and still had change in my pocket.  It is many hours later and I can tell you exactly where on my hip that change was.  Owee.

Tomorrow is group FS and I wonder how my instructor will feel about Mr. stiff legs.  I have been wearing the boots at my desk on and off all evening and I heat molded them again to fix the left ankle bone and pinkie toe area.  I will be wearing those hip pads tomorrow.

BTW, anybody know exactly where to cut a flex notch?  I know I saw it somewhere once before, but I can't find it anymore.  I looked at some SP Teri K2s and found the same spot on my Pro's.  Before I cut, I thought I would see if anyone has any comments.

[AgnesNitt]

The Big Guy buys two pairs of boots and blades a year, he's that hard on them (oh, mama, don't let your boys grow up to be figure skaters). So each pair of boots is about $600 and the blades are parabolics and about $300. So what with set up etc, that's about $2K a year just on his skates and blades.

The important note about this, is don't be a 6'3" 270lb figure skater. You'll go through money like it was water.

I on the other hand will probably have the same pair of boots forever. Though I think I killed a blade tonight.

[Isk8NYC]

I wouldn't cut the flex notch - just unlace the top eyelet and do without lacing it for a few sessions.
My Klingbeils' notches (aka: "scallops") are glued/stitched to keep the boot layers from separating.

Leave the top hook undone as well to get the knee bend you're looking for without altering the skate and voiding the warranty.


I seem to recall Jackson Freestyle having higher heels than SP-Teri skates.  Looks that way in your photos.
That's probably why you're carrying your weight so far back: you're not used to the lower heel.

[Query]

As near as I can tell, the flex notch goes where the boot wants to bend to create a crease when you flex and point your ankle. Right next to where your ankle naturally bends. And yes, it is normally sewn so it doesn't come apart.

Of course, a notch means the breakdown crease will form that much sooner, reducing boot lifetime. But if you feel like your stiff boots are best suited to dragging you to the bottom of a river, you may have little choice.

If you don't have your own ball and ring pliers, or equivalent, a good fitter is a great option for punching (stretching) around the ankles, though in the end, you may find the leather keeps un-stretching itself, and you need the pliers to keep re-doing it.

There is an extant to which many freestylers do allow movement into an area of extra space in front of the foot top to substitute for bending the boot. Many freestylers find that glove-like-fits in very stiff boots provide too much resistance to bending the ankle. Maybe you can make do without lacing so close to the top, to create extra space?

Regardless of what you do:

The most important thing is that the boots provide adequate sideways direction protection against injuries in jumps. Can the ankles bend sideways beyond your safe range of motion under jump force?

Another major thing is that you shouldn't have a lot of pressure at the top of the boot on your leg when you flex or point the foot. Excess pressure on or cutting across the muscle tendons (like the Achilles tendon at the back of the leg) can cause those tendons to burst, an extremely serious injury.

(For which reason many ice dancers cut low the very backs of the boots.)

Some people put soft cushy padding at the of top loose fitting boots - as the boot would be if you don't lace it all the way - e.g. Silipose or other gel-filled padding. These prevents blisters there, yet allows some motion even if the boot doesn't flex.

I don't understand this, and don't know enough to advise it, but some people say you don't need to lace very tightly if the boots are quite stiff and fit reasonably well. Someone on this board recently mentioned doing doubles that way, and I used to know one big tall guy who did triples that way. It is something to consider.

Many people will tell you lace different parts of the lace different tightnesses. E.g., less up top, or less in the middle, separated by surgeon's knots. If you do this, make sure it is too fit what you feel you need, not what your fitter or your coach needs. What you need will depend on how different parts of the boot fit, not just on general principles. E.g., loose in the middle near the ankle flex means the boot will flex easier there - but will also break down much easier there, which is where most boots eventually break down, because there is space inside the boot for the crease to form. So only do that if you really need it.

When I forced my boots to finally break in by repeated heat molding with a hair drier, and flexing the feet inside the boots when they were still hot, it worked, but a boot started to break down a little a little while later. I'm not sure I would advise that - maybe you can't afford to replace this pair just now. This is going to be a potential problem with any solution you find to your problems. Anything you do that will help will tend to make the boots break down sooner.

I'm sorry if I can't really give you a good answer here - sounds like the boots aren't completely ideal for you.

[phoenix]

You have to give it time! New skates always feel like concrete blocks, some more than others, but they all do!! Depending on how /often hard you skate and how stiff the boot is, I always figure it will take at least 2 weeks before they start feeling more a part of you, and up to 6 weeks (if they're super stiff or you don't skate very often). I would NOT cut notches in the skate--let them break in. In 2 months if you're still feeling like they're concrete blocks, take them somewhere that can do the modification correctly for you.

[JimStanmore]

UPDATE:

The SP Teri's are out.  I heat molded them, sat at the computer every night with them laced up, punched them out, skated hard, did deep knee bends and laid hands on them.  (Well, not necessarily the last one.)  My coach kept telling me I looked more secure in them and I felt I was continuously distracted by the various pains.  My jumps never came back and the smoothness was gone.  I no longer had a parent or skater that would come up after a public session to say how much they had enjoyed one of my interpretations of a song, LOL.  And, I began to dread skating and would watch the clock the entire session for the wrong reason.

While the pain inside my left instep troubled me a lot, the scariest one was the increasing pain in the tendon on the outside of my left leg.  It was a 20 minute process of various blister gel bandages , gel pads and wraps to prepare to skate.  While I could understand the hours of recovery time, what I really didn't like is that I lost my ability to be fluid and feel "into" my skating.  Fortunately, they were really cheap - almost a third of their retail price.  And now Ii know my feet do NOT fit into AAA heel/AA ball on a skate manufactured in 2003.  I don't like low heels either...

My new Jackson Premier 10.5 W's arrived today and they are a world apart.  Yes, they hurt a bit, but the heat molding eased that somewhat.  I can't wait to get on the ice with them tomorrow.

This experience lost me time to test and enter and prepare for competitions this Fall.  What I did gain is affirmation of the universal truths of

Go to a fitter to get measured
A deal on skates that aren't the right size is no deal at all (DUH!)

So, I will miss Adult Nationals this season because there is no way I will get through two tests by Feb 1st.  (I will still try, though...)  But, because of posts on this forum I did not push the skates to the point of serious injury to my tendons or the bones in my feet - Thanks everyone!

[FigureSpins]

Sorry to hear of your troubles, but I'm glad you only lost a little time.  I know what you mean about skating being less fun because of skate issues.   ((((Jim))))

There's always next year, right?  In the meantime, you can work on your program longer.  I was talking to one of the elite Adult skaters who goes to AN every year.  She said that two years/program works for her.  She does both an artistic and a freeskate event, so she replaces one of them every year.  I think it's a great strategy that really lets the skater develop the program to its fullest, if you can stand hearing the same music for two years running.

New skates again!  Show 'em off - let's see the pix!
http://skatingforums.com/index.php?topic=101.0