affuteur: quand vous affutez, quel roh vous faites pour quel patineur?

[Nate]

Paramount 17" Blades are the same as my MK Phantoms in terms of profile, but their tolerances are lower so you're getting something true to the schematic... This can feel a little different than actual MK Profiles machined to higher tolerances.

The only differences are:

1.  They are lighter
2.  They hold sharpening much longer (420SS)
3.  They are not tapered (due to design/construction)

Cost difference isn't huge with their SS blades, unless you catch a pair of Phantoms on super sale, but if you want to shed weight, the difference is very noticeable when you mount them onto lightweight boots.  Paramount isn't as annoying as Revolution when it comes to grabbing the blade, etc.

I rate their customer service very highly.  Feels very "mom-and-pop" compared to other FS equipment manufacturers.

You only get factory grind on the blades when they send them out.  You need to have a tech sharpen them when they come in.  Edges may not be even, etc.

Personally, I find the 420SS a bit ... aggressive.  They hold edges too long and the blades feel like they're controlling me because of how much bite they have.  Would probably switch to a shallower setting if I were to skate on them full time.  Maybe 1/2".  I felt like I was going to catch and edge and wipe out stopping all the time with them.  They do make edge jump entrances feel stable, though.

The toe rake on the Paramounts are a little bigger/more aggressive than MK's, and they aren't coated so they are very sharp.

The aluminum runner scratches easily.  I don't think I'd get anything but Polished as far as color goes.  Anything else will start to look ugly pretty quickly from your blades hitting each other and whatnot.

I have never purchased paramount carbon.  That is something they added later to have products at a lower price point.  Sometimes things like that picture posted happen.  I've gotten SS blades that had markings like that on the side.  Has something to do with the part not being placed properly in the machine.  They simply sent a return receipt back and made a new pair of blades and sent them out to me quickly.  Was pretty painless.

If you get something like that, just send them a picture and they'll almost certainly replace the blades ASAP at no cost to you.  They are pretty easy to deal with - even if you purchased from a reseller.

[NiceIce]

Hi Marc,

If those numbers you quote are sixteenths of an inch e.g. 6/16" which equals 3/8", those are very unusual numbers.  Are you sure you are speaking about radii and not diameters?

For hockey players in the US and Canada, the most common roh are 1/2" or 5/8" for players and something like 1" for goalies (because they need to slide their feet out quickly to get their leg pads flat on the ice for blocking shots).  And these edges are actually not as sharp as figure skaters with the same hollows because their blades are much thinner.

For figure skaters, the far majority of blades come from the factory with 7/16" and most skaters stick with that number.  Even members in our club doing triples and attempting quads use the same radius.  And 3/8" is realistically not usable by most skaters due to them having almost no glide at all (unless the ice is like -20C or something).

For beginner and less advanced skaters, coaches usually recommend something much less deep; anywhere from 1/2" to 5/8".  The reason is that these skaters have most problems maintaining glides, and learning T-stops and the shallower radius is a big help.  Also, they need to learn to attain edges with their bodies and not just use sharp edges as a crutch.

And a shallow radius is not that limiting as I know skaters that can do doubles with 5/8".

Hope this helps!

Je voulais savoir quel roh vous pratiquez dans vos pays?

cela fait 3 ans que j'affute et je vais vous dire les roh que je pratique:

5.5/16 :pour les confirmés, poids normal, pour les sauts simple et double , pour la danse solo niveau national
6/16:   pour ceux qui ont un niveau moyen et qui commance à patiner avec un coté de la lame( carre)
6.5/16:  pour les débutants, adultes et les patineurs un peu costaud

Je me demande s'ils ne se sont pas habitué à cela ...
quand j'essaie de chercher, je trouve pas grand chose si ce n'est que le roh classique est 1/2 pouce.
Et je me demande si je ne fais pas trop creux....

un ancien patineur de notre club qui faisait les triples saut faisait encore plus creux que 5.5/16 alors que moi je trouve que c'est déjà tres creux!!

Alors je voulais avoir un peu vos avis...

Bien à vous tous dans vos différents pays et merci de m'eclairer un petit peu

[Query]

Those Dance blades that are ground thin at the bottom ("thinline", like MK Dance) often have smaller radius. At one point, I believe they published 3/8" ROH as the factory grind. And here is a website (from the main US distribute of Edea boots) listing 5/16" for MK Dance:

https://skatesus.com/product/mk-dance-figure-skating-blade/

However, because they are thinner at the bottom, the small ROH does not create as small an included angle as it would on a wider blade, such as a typical freestyle blade.

However, Eclipse Dance blades are also nominally thinline, but they recommend 1" ROH.

I have used 3/8" ROH on various blades, including freestyle blades, for a long time. But I would like to try a larger ROH, on the assumption that they would glide better. I think I originally benefited from that small an ROH because I was not aligning my weight with the direction of the blade very well. Also, because I sometimes skated on relatively cold (hockey) ice. And maybe I wasn't strong enough yet to push down hard on the blades.

BTW sometimes skate techs choose relatively small ROH for very light skaters - e.g., little kids, especially if they aren't very aggressive skaters, because without that, the kids don't get much ice penetration.

[marc]

Hi query, nicelce,

J'écris en français depuis mon téléphone !

Merci pour vos échanges constructifs.

Cela me fait réfléchir et avancer et depuis le début de cette discussion j'affute moins creux.
Je vais vers 7/16 pour les compétitions, et je vais essayer le 1/2" pour les débutants (petits et adultes).
J'ai essayé le hockey :
3/8 pour un enfant 8ans
Et
6,5" pour son père ( cela fait 30 ans qui fait du hockey et il trouve que cela lui va bien)
Mais je vais essayer,sans leur dire, de baisser de roh à tout les 2 et je pense qu'il verront rien.

A suivre ...

[Query]

I don't think you should change the ROH without telling them!

If a skate tech had done that to me, I would never have gone back to them, and I would have told all my friends to stay far, far away from that skate tech.

You could get a very bad reputation if you do that. And in my opinion you would deserve the bad reputation.

Also, you use up a lot of blade metal, and therefore reduce blade lifetime, when you change ROH.

The responsible thing to do would be to ask for permission first, saying that you think they would benefit from the change - but only if you really do think they would benefit.

I'm not sure what you meant by 6.5". At least in the U.S.A., " is an abbreviation for "inch". Did you mean 6.5 mm? If so, both of the current ROHs are fairly reasonable for a child and an adult.

[tstop4me]

I'm not sure what you meant by 6.5". At least in the U.S.A., " is an abbreviation for "inch". Did you mean 6.5 mm? If so, both of the current ROHs are fairly reasonable for a child and an adult.

If you check the original post (beginning of thread), marc initially specified values of ROH in increments of 1/16".  So 6,5" was a typo; should have been 6,5/16", where some countries use a comma instead of a period as a decimal-point separator.

[tstop4me]

If those numbers you quote are sixteenths of an inch e.g. 6/16" which equals 3/8", those are very unusual numbers.  Are you sure you are speaking about radii and not diameters?

For figure skaters, the far majority of blades come from the factory with 7/16" and most skaters stick with that number.  Even members in our club doing triples and attempting quads use the same radius.  And 3/8" is realistically not usable by most skaters due to them having almost no glide at all (unless the ice is like -20C or something).

For beginner and less advanced skaters, coaches usually recommend something much less deep; anywhere from 1/2" to 5/8".  The reason is that these skaters have most problems maintaining glides, and learning T-stops and the shallower radius is a big help.  Also, they need to learn to attain edges with their bodies and not just use sharp edges as a crutch.

And a shallow radius is not that limiting as I know skaters that can do doubles with 5/8".

* I'm in the US.  I skate in indoor rinks.  The ice temperature never gets as low as -20 deg C (-4 deg F).  I'm medium weight (135 lbs), not super-lightweight.  I specify a 3/8" ROH on my freestyle blades (confirmed by gauges).  I further hand burnish the edges to be really sharp.  I have no problems with glides and T-stops.  I prefer the extra bite for deep edges entering a spin.

* As I wrote previously, large values of ROH (say 5/8" or greater) are advantageous for advanced skaters since they can benefit from the extra glide on maneuvers that do not require a deep edge.  At the same time, when they do need a deep edge, they have enough control to press the edge into the ice.  One advanced skater I know (jumps triples; amazing spins; swooping spirals down the length of the ice) at one time used a 1" ROH.  Another sharpener recommended that she change to 3/4".  An ex-US-national pairs champion (also an ex-Olympian) goes to the same sharpener that I do.  She specifies 5/8" ROH.

* But beginners have not attained good edge control.  With large values of ROH, they will skid on many single-edge maneuvers. Several of the sharpeners in my area use a default of 1/2" ROH if the skaters don't know what to specify.  When beginners discuss their skidding issues with me and ask for my advice, I will recommend 7/16" ROH; so far, they've been happier afterwards.

[tstop4me]

Hi query, nicelce,

J'écris en français depuis mon téléphone !

Merci pour vos échanges constructifs.

Cela me fait réfléchir et avancer et depuis le début de cette discussion j'affute moins creux.
Je vais vers 7/16 pour les compétitions, et je vais essayer le 1/2" pour les débutants (petits et adultes).
J'ai essayé le hockey :
3/8 pour un enfant 8ans
Et
6,5" pour son père ( cela fait 30 ans qui fait du hockey et il trouve que cela lui va bien)
Mais je vais essayer,sans leur dire, de baisser de roh à tout les 2 et je pense qu'il verront rien.

A suivre ...

Hi marc.  I never learned French, so I'm working off Google translate.  As you can tell from the various responses, there is no consensus on the optimal value (or range of values) for ROH.  There are many variables, and different approaches to skating.  Ultimately, it's a matter of personal preference once the skater has advanced sufficiently.  So I agree with Query (not something I often do  ), that you should not secretly change a value of ROH.  You can recommend a default value for a beginner who has no clue; and you can suggest a change for a more experienced skater who has requested a particular value.  If they agree, then all is good.  But if they do not agree, then don't make any changes.

[Query]

-20 deg C (-4 F)? Yuk!

Does arctic scuba diving sound fun too?

[marc]

Query


You're right, for both hockey players, I wouldn't change ROH without telling them.
The skaters in my club have complete confidence in me, and rightly so. If I sharpen, it's because my daughter is the strongest in the club, and I wanted the best for her.
And she's my biggest test.
She was used to 5.5/16, and I wanted to go 6/16, but she was scared until the day she agreed and didn't notice any difference... (and yet she skates a lot, 10 hours a week!!)
And then I bought her Matrix Supreme blades (where they recommend 7/16), so I sharpened them to 7/16.
And then I realized that these blades were the best: more speed in a straight line and great grip in turns with a less hollow edge!

My wife, too, for whom I gave a test:
5.5/16 even though she's just a beginner and a bit strong (but it was my first sharpening attempt),
and recently, I went up to 7/16 and, of course, she sinks less into the ice and brakes better.

So to all those beginner skaters whose skates I sharpened last year in 6.5/16, I'm going to warn them that I'm going to go a little less hollow in 7/16