Replacing a Matrix Elite blade with an MK Phantom

[Christy]

Does anyone know if I could replace a Matrix Elite blade with an MK Phantom blade, both the same length (9 1/4) and re-use the same holes. Unfortunately I can't compare as the local store doesn't have the Phantoms in stock and will only order if I guarantee to buy them      and I don't trust them to fill the old holes and mount the new blades. Also it would be a temporary solution until I can get the Matrix blades sharpened by a proper sharpener.

[Loops]

I don't know about hole alignment on the blades.

But for hole plugging- I've taken my skates to the cobblers and had them do it.  They did as good a job as my tech, but for a small fraction of the price.  Dunno if that's part of a solution for you though.

[Bill_S]

I would think that your chances of getting the holes to line up between two different blades is slim.

[tstop4me]

I don't know about hole alignment on the blades.

But for hole plugging- I've taken my skates to the cobblers and had them do it.  They did as good a job as my tech, but for a small fraction of the price.  Dunno if that's part of a solution for you though.

Plugging the holes is only half the operation.  There's drilling new holes and mounting the blades to deal with.  Also, depends on whether Christy has boots with traditional leather soles and heels (probably OK for a cobbler to handle) or boots with synthetic soles and heels (such as Edeas) ... probably not OK for a cobbler to handle.

[Christy]

They're Edeas so not sure a cobbler could help. You need the specialist plugs and when I mentioned those to local skate shop they looked blank!

[Loops]

They're Edeas so not sure a cobbler could help. You need the specialist plugs and when I mentioned those to local skate shop they looked blank!

No, in that case they probably couldn't. I have to admit though, when I discovered that solution, I was pretty thrilled with the savings.  Good luck sorting out the new blades!  Are you comfortable mounting them yourself?  I've tried and we have such a heavy drill that it's difficult without having a shoe stand.  The drill requires 2 hands.......

[tstop4me]

No, in that case they probably couldn't. I have to admit though, when I discovered that solution, I was pretty thrilled with the savings.  Good luck sorting out the new blades!  Are you comfortable mounting them yourself?  I've tried and we have such a heavy drill that it's difficult without having a shoe stand.  The drill requires 2 hands.......

Yeah, electric drills get more and more macho.  For mounting blades, I use a small, lightweight, battery-powered electric screwdriver with a drill adapter for drilling the holes.  I use a manual screwdriver for installing the screws, though.

[Bill_S]

[snip]...  I use a manual screwdriver for installing the screws, though.

^^^This^^^ to reduce the potential to strip screws in soft leather or polymer.

[Christy]

No, in that case they probably couldn't. I have to admit though, when I discovered that solution, I was pretty thrilled with the savings.  Good luck sorting out the new blades!  Are you comfortable mounting them yourself?  I've tried and we have such a heavy drill that it's difficult without having a shoe stand.  The drill requires 2 hands.......

I'd be comfortable swapping the blades and reusing the holes but not with trying to plug the current holes and drilling new ones.

[Loops]

Well, I have a pair of unmounted Ultima supremes.  IF all ultima mounts have the holes in the same places, I can dig them out and photograph them for you.  I could even compare them to my MK Silvertest (patch blades)- the only MK's I have in the house at the time being.  I'll do this for you if you want, but I don't think that MK mounting plates have the holes in the same place for each model.  Ultima might.

Is there anyway we can collectively gather the information to help you out?

I would be careful re-using holes though.  Things can get loosey-goosey, and that, you definitely don't want.

[Query]

My older-style Matrix blades did not fit the holes of my MK Dance blades (both 9-3/4"). I was told that even MK blades, from one model to the next, aren't always a perfect fit, but haven't confirmed that. I think I may have gotten away with using the same holes for MK Dance and JW Coronation Ace, but am not certain any more, and I may not have worried about getting an exact countersink mesh. But there are enough differences between my blades and yours that my experience on that may not apply.

I wonder if someone here plans to visit a skate shop that would have your size blades for both types of blade that they could look at.

If I remember correctly, an Edea tech who probably trained other Edea techs (he was the North American distributor) mounted blades to Edea skates by drilling all the way through (after removing the insole), and screwing bolts from the outside with something like a very thin roller skating nut on the inside, and putting the insoles back in. You can do that with ice skate blades too - I was told that some high level skaters did it so they could swap blades more quickly. E.g., between freestyle and dance blades, or so they could ship their blades for sharpening to their favorite skate tech. It also makes for a more solid connection - you can easily strip a screw hole in relatively soft sole materials by overtightening them, though I'm not sure if that is true of Edea sole materials. In contrast, metal bolts and nuts don't strip as easily, if you are careful.

But that is not the way most pro shop skate techs have been taught to mount blades, by screwing self-taping wood-screws into leather soles.

Also - while to some extent you can sometimes get away with not plugging holes in normal mounts - though in leather that can sometimes lead to rot. (Do the materials in Edea soles rot? I don't know.) But if the holes were indeed drilled all the way through, and the holes aren't plugged, your feet may get wet. I'm not sure, but your feet might also get cold if they aren't filled.

I have filled holes in leather soles with Shoe Goo. That worked with the little bit of overlap I had. But Shoe Goo takes 72 hours to fully set (especially if the holes overlap, so you need the filler to be strong). That's a long time not to skate.

One skate tech (Don Giese) told me that you can accelerate how fast Shoe Goo sets by using heat, but didn't give me any details. Also, from what I understand, you need to be very careful about heat and Edea composite boots. I have no idea how hot you can safely get them. I'd be too cautious to try. Skate boots are too expensive to mess up, unless you have an older pair that is no good to experiment on.

I also do not know if Shoe Goo will bond to the materials in Edea soles. Perhaps you should try a short test inside one hole first?

Another skate tech (Mike Cunningham) carefully shaved wooden dowel rods to slightly larger than the holes, then hammered them in - at least in leather soles. It made for very solid fills, that handled overlapping holes very well. I think that is pretty safe, and its also cheap, but admit I don't know how well the coefficients of thermal expansion for wood  match those for Edea soles, and maybe someone with an engineering background could suggest other concerns - perhaps some types of wood would do a better job than others. (I basically tried it for one hole, using a cheap pine dowel. Mike, who had decades of practice and a power sanding tool, did it very fast, but I took much longer using a handheld file. Maybe you could use a sharp knife too instead.) If the holes are drilled all the way through the soles, I guess you should take out the insole and measure the depth of the hole, and cut the dowel to that length first, so nothing pokes into and rips the insole.

I'm sorry I can't give you any details specific to Edea boots. If they were mine, I would try the shaved dowel approach.

Regardless, assuming that the matrix blades have countersunk holes for the screws, be very sure to use countersink screws or nuts on the circular holes. That makes for a tighter fit, and also firmly locks the blade into position. At least in the past, Matrix blades had the countersink properly centered on the hole in the blade, but MK blades didn't always do that quite right. So you may want to use a "countersink punch" to center your pre-drilled pilot hole on the countersink, rather than on the rest of the hole in the blade. (Mike could do it by eye, but I'm less coordinated, and can't do it well that way.) If you have access to one (they start at about $20), a "drill guide" will also help you drill the pilot hole perpendicular to the top of the blade, so the countersink will engage fully without warp. I also suggest you try to avoid warping your blade, by first using tape (I like cloth first aid tape, which maintains its shape well over time) so that the top of the blade plate exactly fits against the shape of the bottom of the boot, without needing pressure to warp it. Experiment with how many layers you need in each position on the boot to get that perfect fit. I think Bill has described using Silicone sealant instead - I'm not sure how you do that under pressure without warping the blade.

Since the sole is synthetic, I think, it is possible you don't need to waterproof the bottom - is that right, guys??

[Christy]

Well, I have a pair of unmounted Ultima supremes.  IF all ultima mounts have the holes in the same places, I can dig them out and photograph them for you.  I could even compare them to my MK Silvertest (patch blades)- the only MK's I have in the house at the time being.  I'll do this for you if you want, but I don't think that MK mounting plates have the holes in the same place for each model.  Ultima might.

Is there anyway we can collectively gather the information to help you out?

I would be careful re-using holes though.  Things can get loosey-goosey, and that, you definitely don't want.

Thank you so much for the offer. The local skate tech doesn't have many pairs of MK blades but seems to think the holes differ by model. His understanding is that all of the Matrix blades have the holes in the same places, but I don't know about Ultima. I could ask but he really only has Matrix, Paramount (which I don't want) plus the odd pair of MKs.
I'm thinking I may just stick with the Matrix blades for now, because as you say I'm worried about re-using holes and having problems with not being able to refill them.

[Christy]

Edea actually sells specialist plugs to fill the holes https://skatesus.com/product/carbon-filler-plugs/ so that would be an option, although I'm not sure how confident I'd be with using them and drilling new holes. As I said I'd be OK with removing a blade and replacing it with another one, but filling then drilling the soles seems like something I'd want an expert to do.
It's interesting to read about screwing the bolts from the outside, although Edea have special screws too, so that may not be an option.

[Query]

Oh. Didn't realize Edea sold something designed to do exactly that job. Not cheap, but I assume the plugs are strong enough to do the job well.

Edea's website shows a rather elaborate and no doubt expensive kit to mount skates. It's an interesting video, and does show drilling all the way through.
  https://ice.edeaskates.com/en/tech-info/blade-assembly/equipment-required-for-blade-mounting/

Edea's website also says you should use their screws, short and with a special ghread, not the longer ones that sometimes come with blades, because their soles are thin.

Your link suggests using a marine epoxy. Maybe you could use such a glue with a cheaper filler, like wood.

That video does not show using a countersink center punch to properly center the pilot hole or a drill guide to keep the drill at right angles to the surface - so they assume a reasonably high level of mechanical skill.

I don't know if their product comes with instructions regarding the choice of epoxy. The most widely used marine epoxy in the paddling world is West System Epoxy, though I'm sure it isn't the cheapest. It's strong (it needs to be somewhat strong if the holes overlap; see https://www.westsystem.com/the-105-system/product-selection-guide for info on the high load hardener; I have no idea if that is overkill), the fumes might be a little less toxic or carcinogenic than some of the others (I'm not sure of that - use it in a well ventilated environment, wear gloves and eye protection), and it adheres both to old previously set epoxy, and to the other common previously set composite resins. Unfortunately, even their small repair kits are expensive. Perhaps a cheaper marine epoxy and hardener will do, but despite my inclination to use dollar store tools and supplies when I can, I'd be inclined to use a good strong one for mounting skates - if the new and old hole positions overlap.

If the holes don't overlap, I doubt the type of epoxy or filler matters much, because it doesn't need to be strong. I suspect a cheap silicone caulk would do the job.

[Christy]

I've watched my proper skate tech mount a load of blades to Edea skates, and they've never used that kit. The specialist screws are actually provided with the boots so at least you don't have to buy those, and if I did replace the blades I'd re-use the screws I have, assuming they were OK.

I do find it interesting that they say if there's no hole interference you don't need to fill the old holes, but I would be concerned about water getting through old holes?

[Loops]

..... but I would be concerned about water getting through old holes?

If the old holes are covered by the blade plate itself, maybe not. Even if there is a microscopic space between the plate and sole, I doubt enough water could gain access for you to notice.  Plus if you use one of those silicone seals that many others do, you'd have nothing to worry about.

[Query]

Even if the holes don't overlap, I personally would prefer to fill the holes with a cheap caulk - dollar store stuff, if you don't already have one. Loops is probably right that there will be no significant leakage, but I would worry that, the seal could eventually degrade. But that's just me.

I watched that video again.

I notice that:

1. The blade already conforms to the bottom of the boot, without pressure. That won't always be true. I don't even think it is typical, though my experience is with my own boots and blades, which are mounted offset from the center of the boots. If only boots and blade plates were all coplanar, the problem wouldn't arise - though of course some people still need sideways shims to get good blade align ment with their bodies.

2. It's a little hard to see on the video, but I think Edea uses flat head self-tapping screws, not the roller skate style bolts and nuts I thought they used. (Now I wonder if some roller skates have that too...) Possibly they get away with flat heads by using screws with a wider head than most? But, since they don't engage the countersink that is present in the holes of most high end blades, I wonder if the blade could slip in position more easily.

In the video, the user adjusts the torque setting on the electric drill/screwdriver. What are the units of that torque? Is it a higher setting than would be used with leather soles? If so, maybe that helps lock the blade in place despite not engaging.

They also use more screws than most techs on most skates. Maybe that helps too.

3. They drilled pilot holes for the forward plate, and screwed the forward plate into place, then hammered (lightly to be sure) on the back of the blade to bring the alignment into line before doing the same to the back plate. That would of course warp the blade! (A little.) I don't like that. I think it is better to tape the blade into proper alignment, then proceed. It is possible they needed to do what they did because they failed to use a countersink center punch and drill guide to start the pilot hole in a centered position, exactly perpendicular to the plate surface.

4. You will notice that at least two of the screws change directions as they reach the end of being screwed in, as they touch the sides of the hole and the plate. Again, an obvious sign of a slightly uncentered or off-axis pilot hole. That will create a torque on the blade that will also tend to warp it. I don't like that either.

Am I being too picky? Do you think it is not enough warp to matter, in terms of how the blade is sharpened?

[Query]

Oops. My mistake. You can't use a drill guide (at least not mine) when the blade is on the boot. The runner would get in the way.

I've used drill guides on bare outsoles, that someone had sanded to be coplanar. But the blade plates aren't coplanar. I can use tape or shims to make the bottom of the plates coplanar, so they fit that sole, but the tops presumably aren't, and the level of the countersinks probably aren't (I haven't checked). So I did it wrong too.

I still like the idea of using a countersink center punch.

[tstop4me]

I've watched my proper skate tech mount a load of blades to Edea skates, and they've never used that kit. The specialist screws are actually provided with the boots so at least you don't have to buy those, and if I did replace the blades I'd re-use the screws I have, assuming they were OK.

I do find it interesting that they say if there's no hole interference you don't need to fill the old holes, but I would be concerned about water getting through old holes?

I wouldn't leave the old holes exposed.  At the very least, cover the outside with vinyl tape.   

Unless you're really, really sure you won't be installing the Edea custom carbon-fiber filler plugs in the future, I would not fill the holes with silicone or other goop, because (should you choose to install the filler plugs in the future) you might not be able to clean the goop out properly, and the goop might interfere with the adhesion of the epoxy used for the filler plugs.  With leather soles and wood dowel filler plugs, this is not an issue:  if you have goop in an old hole, you just drill out the hole to a bit larger diameter to expose clean material, and use a larger diameter dowel.