Um...are my blades too long for my boots?

[MCsAngel2]

First of all, sorry for all the recent posts. It's going to be a thing for awhile.

SECOND of all, please tell me if this is a thing or if it's just because I'm new again to everything and it's just me and I'm still trying to find my balance.

I've skated about three hours worth on three sessions in my new skates. I'm a returning skater but starting from the beginning. Today was the first time I tried some real skills. Front/back swizzles, slaloms, one foot glides (eh), two foot turns (messy), and snowplow stops (don't really have this at all).

In still working on fixing the heel slipping thing, when I stumble and such, I keep telling myself it's because I'm still trying to find my balance. But you know, today I was thinking it feels weird. It sort of feels like I want to fall over my blades. Then I was thinking, isn't it odd that I can actually see the very tip of the blade peeking out from under the front of the boot?

So it's hard to measure exactly because the blade is there, but it looks to me that the boot is 9 5/8" long. And I have Mark IV blades that are 9 2/3" long. And then I read something that says the blades should be 1/8 to 1/4" shorter than the boot.

Anyone have any experience in this?

[tstop4me]

For ease of comparison, let's convert the fractional measurements to the nearest two-place decimal values.  Then:

* boot length 9-5/8" (assuming it's correct) = 9.63"

* supplied blade length 9-2/3" = 9.67"

* next shorter blade length 9-1/3" = 9.33"

That means that the supplied blade is 0.04" longer than the boot; whereas the next shorter blade length would be 0.30" shorter than the boot.  Jackson recommends a target blade length of approximately 1/4" = 0.25" shorter than the boot (https://jacksonultima.com/apps/help-center#!blade-fit-information).  Assuming your measurement of the boot length is correct, looks like you should have been fitted with a 9-1/3" blade.  Ask your fitter whether he had a good reason for choosing the longer blade; or whether he ordered it in error.  Note that the chart supplied by Jackson (http://www.jacksonultimaskate.com/static/ConsumerBladeFitChartJackson2018.pdf) is not necessarily correct, as I can personally attest to; you need to measure the boot, as cautioned by Jackson.

I believe, from another post, you bought the Jackson Debut Fusion Low-Cut.  Out of curiosity, what size is it?  I'd like to see what blade length the chart suggests.

[MCsAngel2]

Just googled some more, and found this chart:

https://img1.wsimg.com/blobby/go/f5800157-f33d-41ca-a0c8-923e638ce139/downloads/1c410vnk2_147416.pdf?ver=1554687664875

ETA:Yes, it's the Jackson Debut Fusion low cut, size 6.

My boot has a fusion sole, so according to this I measured correctly and it's 9 5/8" long. And they recommend a 9.5" blade.

Why on earth does Jackson produce their blades in thirds of inches instead of quarters? With how popular they are, this really annoys me.

I just wonder if the blade being .045 inches longer than my boot is/will really be a problem. The extra length is coming out the front, not the back, but even then the rear stanchion is not close to being centered on the heel, it's way back.

So is it better to get a blade that's .17 inches too long, or a blade that's .30 inches too short??

[MCsAngel2]

I wonder what the rest of you would do in my situation. Stick it out with the too long blade, or actually have them removed and replaced with something that is the corrcect length?

[tstop4me]

Just googled some more, and found this chart:

https://img1.wsimg.com/blobby/go/f5800157-f33d-41ca-a0c8-923e638ce139/downloads/1c410vnk2_147416.pdf?ver=1554687664875

My boot has a fusion sole, so according to this I measured correctly and it's 9 5/8" long. And they recommend a 9.5" blade.

Why on earth does Jackson produce their blades in thirds of inches instead of quarters? With how popular they are, this really annoys me.

I just wonder if the blade being .045 inches longer than my boot is/will really be a problem. The extra length is coming out the front, not the back, but even then the rear stanchion is not close to being centered on the heel, it's way back.

So is it better to get a blade that's .17 inches too long, or a blade that's .30 inches too short??

It's only the bottom-line Mark IV that comes in 1/3" increments.  All the other Ultima blades come in 1/4"  increments.  At one time, MK produced all their blades in 1/3" increments, but eventually converted to 1/4" increments after their merger with Wilson.  Most blades come in 1/4" increments these days.  Blades in 1/3" increments are in the minority, mainly low-end blades.

I would raise this issue with your fitter, and see what he says.  I personally don't care for a blade that's too long because I want the option of adjusting the position of the blade (toe-to-heel and inside-to-outside) without having a mounting plate protruding past the side of the boot (a bit iffy in the event of a fall).  If your fitter says it's too late to swap, it's probably not a big deal for a beginner (especially with an 8' radius main rocker).  Proper placement of the sweet spot is important for a scratch spin, but you'll probably want to upgrade the blade by the time you get to that stage. 

[Bill_S]

That's a difficult decision. If you change blades, the old holes will be adjacent the new ones on a new blade, and will require careful plugging. If they are sticking out the front by only 0.045" (which isn't much), I'd probably just skate in them. However it surprises me that they didn't mount them with the excess in the rear.

Personally, I like the blade mounting plate to be flush with the front of the boot...



My blade mounts are about 0.1" shorter than the length of the boot, so I have a small space at the rear of the heel.



[BTW, the dark stuff around the screws is NOT rust. It is a discoloration of the silicone sealant I used when mounting the blades 12 years ago.]

For alignment, I mount my blades centered on the boot as viewed from the skater's position. The heel plate may look un-centered viewed from the bottom, but sometimes is an optical illusion. The blade is what counts. Here's the view down the back of my skate to show the blade centering...



The next time though, insist on a better fit with both mounting plates completely within the sole, and not sticking out of the front or back.

[Loops]

Did you fitter mount the blades, or did they come premounted on the boot?

I would first talk to you coach (or fitter, if they're located in a rink), and have them check the alignment.  This is always a potential issue.

I have had blades that hang off the boot.  It's not desireable, but not the end of the world either for the amount you're talking about.  It is far more important that the spin rocker (aka "sweetspot") is in the correct place.  My guess is that's why the excess plate is hanging off the front of the boot.  Check with your fitter though, if you can, or your coach if you can't get to your fitter.

Fwiw, my fitter, who has travelled around the world with the US skating team, has told me numerous times that the russians mount blades too far back- there's a reason for this- whether its sound or not, I don't know, but it means that either they're skating on blades that are too small for their boots, OR with the heel plate hanging off the back.  Either way they seem to do just fine.

As long as the spin rocker is under the ball of your foot, I wouldn't sweat this. By the time it becomes an issue (if it ever even does) you'll be changing boots and perhaps even blades.

[AgnesNitt]

Did you fitter mount the blades, or did they come premounted on the boot?

I would first talk to you coach (or fitter, if they're located in a rink), and have them check the alignment.  This is always a potential issue.

I have had blades that hang off the boot.  It's not desireable, but not the end of the world either for the amount you're talking about.  It is far more important that the spin rocker (aka "sweetspot") is in the correct place.  My guess is that's why the excess plate is hanging off the front of the boot.  Check with your fitter though, if you can, or your coach if you can't get to your fitter.

Fwiw, my fitter, who has travelled around the world with the US skating team, has told me numerous times that the russians mount blades too far back- there's a reason for this- whether its sound or not, I don't know, but it means that either they're skating on blades that are too small for their boots, OR with the heel plate hanging off the back.  Either way they seem to do just fine.

As long as the spin rocker is under the ball of your foot, I wouldn't sweat this. By the time it becomes an issue (if it ever even does) you'll be changing boots and perhaps even blades.

As an aside, I think I've bought skates through your fitter.

The russians used to skate with higher than normal heels. In that case, there might be a technical reason to have the rocker more precisely centered than if the  heel is lower. And 1...2...3...here's Query with his next post.

[Query]

My claim would be that the length, style, and mounting position should match your feet and body, not your boots.

I.E., if

1. the "sweet spot", where the rocker curvature changes (AFAICT, what Loops is calling the spin rocker - though some people use that word to refer to the forward portion, ahead of the sweet spot), is under the ball of your feet
AND
2. AND you find the position of the toe pick a comfortable and efficient place from which to vault into jumps, without creating much of a tendency to accidentally hit your toe pick
AND
3. and the tail is long enough that you feel stable on the back, and don't drag the tail because it is too short, yet it is short enough that you don't accidentally step on the tail with your other blade

I would claim everything is right.

It is possible there are other criteria - e.g., I have never figured out a way to make myself spin well.

I.E., if it feels right, it is right.

In principle, the position of the front of the outsole is almost completely irrelevant to your anatomy and athletic performance. The one exception is that the outsole position and length in some custom-fit boots are specifically set up to match the boot-maker's best guess at what is anatomically best for you. But, I gather that isn't true here - right?

#2 above is the most likely issue to look at - if your tail drags, because it is too short, it will slow you down, a lot.

As to heel height - that too probably needs to match your anatomy.

There are of course other issues, like how the boots fit you, how your balance feels with the blade mount positions, etc.

[tstop4me]

My claim would be that the length, style, and mounting position should match your feet and body, not your boots.

Boot manufacturers don't agree.  As I mentioned before, Jackson recommends a target blade length 1/4" shorter than the boot length (https://jacksonultima.com/apps/help-center#!blade-fit-information).  But Edea, due to a different boot geometry, recommends a target blade length equal to the boot length (https://ice.edeaskates.com/en/tech-info/blade-assembly/choosing-the-correct-blade-size/).

Recommendations by boot manufacturers aside, there's a fundamental reason why the boot can't be dismissed:  the boot serves as the interface between the foot and the blade.  While ultimately it's the relationship between the overall body and the blade that's important, this relationship is primarily constrained (and defined) by the boot.  The geometry of the blade is specified relative to the geometry of the boot, and the geometry of the foot is specified relative to the geometry of the boot [allowing for some variation in the geometry of the blade relative to the boot (e.g., via positioning, alignment, and shimming) and allowing for some variation in the geometry of the foot relative to the boot (e.g., via a footbed and ankle sleeve)].  Assuming we don't make major modifications to the boot (e.g., via machining or adapter plates), the boot imposes constraints on the relative geometry between the foot and the blade.

[MCsAngel2]

The blade did not come attached, in fact there was some debate as to whether I was going to get the Mark IV or the Mirage. I held both in my hands and saw no difference in the toe pick except the Mirage had one more tooth, so I just decided to save the extra $10. If I had known about this sizing issue beforehand, I would have picked something else. In fact, if I'd done my recent research beforehand, I would have seen if I could have gotten a Wilson Majestic somewhere (seems to be discontinued now).

Since no one really seems to think this is a disaster, I'm just going to deal with it. I don't have a coach (yet, although I do coincidentally know one because she's married to a high school friend). I'm not going to ask my fitter about it either, I don't know why he didn't say anything about it, but he's the only truly professional fitter in my state and has already been helping me with moving the blade on one boot due to pronation (he wound up putting an orthotic wedge under the sole which did the trick). It's hard to say if by the time I need to work on spins and jumps that I'll need new boots or just new blades, so I want to preserve the sole as much as possible just in case.

Re: If it feels right, it is right. Well, that's the problem. I'm starting to think it doesn't feel right. It's almost like the skates are too big, or the blades are too big, like I can't control them, but I truly don't think they are, other than the heels. I'm in the process of working on that. But then, I really have only skated three hours. I'm really out of shape, I have no core strength, I have to sit down every three circuits or so or my body tenses up. I hope all of this is just a product of being a middle aged beginner. The experience is soooo much more different than it was when I was 13!

[Loops]

... he's the only truly professional fitter in my state and has already been helping me with moving the blade on one boot due to pronation (he wound up putting an orthotic wedge under the sole which did the trick)......

It sounds like you're already on the situation.  If the hangover were an issue, he'd have had something to say, probably before you bought the blades.  This isn't his first time around this block. 

That's not to say there might not be other issues- but give yourself some time to get back into shape and comfortable again on the ice. 3 hours isn't that much time.....

[Query]

TStop4Me, you are right that the boot influences the way in which your body and foot interact with the blade. E.g., the forward/backward tilt of the foot, and the amount of forward/backward bend, both have a huge effect on the way in which the foot interacts with the blade. E.g., to a large extent, it is the downwards projection of the foot that interacts with the blade, and if the foot is tilted (as it is in almost all figure skates), that length is substantially less than the untilted length of the foot.

However:
(1) Both that tilt and that bend can be to some extent modified by the insole. I would argue that most people can be made more comfortable by such modifications, that they or their fitter makes, rather than relying on the standard shape the boot maker assumes - though I would also argue that such parameters are a significant part of the reason why many people feel more comfortable in some brands of boot than others.
(2) Think of this in terms of simple physics: Because the soles of figure skating boots are extremely stiff, the outsole length can have virtually no effect on the interaction between the body and the blade. That is to say, the forces delivered between the body to the blade are not significantly affected by outsole placement or length. The placement of the blade on the ice is also unaffected by those things, UNLESS you mount the blade relative to the outsole, rather than relative to the foot.

There is of course one major exception to (2) above: the length of the boot affects how close the feet can come together without hitting each other. One of the tenants of skating's "neat feet" is that the feet should often pass or brush as close to each other as possible. But the audience and judges don't see the feet. They see the boots. And it is the outside of the boots that constrain when they do and do not touch. The outsole is part of that.

Regardless of boot maker's recommendations, it makes sense to me for each skater to look at their equipment functionally - that is, if they skate better with a longer or shorter than recommended blade, or with a blade whose sweet spot and toe pick is in one or another position, etc., they should pick the one that works best for them. In other words, the boot maker's recommendations should only be seen as a first guess at what works best, for that skater. (I suppose it might even be possible that some skaters would be better off with slightly unequal blade lengths, though I've never seen anyone do that.) In any event, now that the original poster has a pair of skates and blades to work with, he or she can experiment with modifications that achieve what they want. Unfortunately, if he or she decides on a different pair of blades, that will cost extra - which is why it would be nice if the original guess was right, but that is sometimes too much to hope for.

However, the outsole placement and lengths does affect the stresses that occur internal to the boot itself. I damaged a pair of skates, by using a mis-positioned mounting point. In particular, an inexpert fitter offset my blades sideways to make me balance better, instead of modifying the insole to achieve the same thing. Some boot brands and types are made to allow for that. However, Klingbeil, which made those boots, specifically specified that they should be center mounted - and were not designed for the physically stress created by an offset mount. And the boots gradually twisted and warped. In principle, Klingbeil could have voided the warranty for that, and the warp did affect the boots in a number of ways.

Likewise, it is conceivable that a given boot brand or type might not be designed to take the physical stresses associated with mounting the blades more forward or backward, or with a different length than intended. I simply don't know whether that is true.

BTW, Edea is very atypical in fit theory. Most reputable boot brands try to create approximately equal pressure all over the foot, with the possible exception of the regions behind and ahead of the part over the ankle, and maintain that sideways ankle reinforcement is absolutely critical to the foot health of skaters. They use heat molds and in some case custom fits to create those effects. Edea more or less claimed that you only need pressure contact at the back of the heel, and a portion of the tongue, and that proper fit and boot interaction is obtained by squeezing those two points together on the foot. I would claim that this is a clumsy - and for many people, uncomfortable - way of avoiding making it possible to do real heat molds and real custom fits. This philosophy was explained in a video which I can't find on Edea's site any more - so perhaps they eventually realized this wouldn't work well for a lot of people. But they still lack the easy heat molding technique, and true custom fitting, that other brands have long employed. In fact, as far as I can tell, you can't even specify to Edea different relative widths for heel, midfoot and toe, as you can for most of the other major figure skate boot brands - so some people might end up with issues like squeezed toes, or loose heels, etc. The loose heels can be fixed by inserts or other adjustment, if you know what you are doing, but the squeezed toes may not be, in some cases, especially if the squeeze is too close to the bottom of the foot, if the problem is too severe - in fact, an expert Edea fitter told me that MY feet, which have wide toes, could not possibly be accommodated by Edea boots, for that and other reasons, no matter how the boots were modified.

That said, Edea likes to show pictures of "traditional boots" vs "Edea boots", in which the inside and outside shape is radically different. However, if you look at other modern figure skating boots, most of them don't actually look the way they say that "traditional boots" look, and are somewhat closer to the way they say Edea boots are shaped. I think you need to take any boot maker's marketing hype with a healthy dose of skepticism.

The best fitters have learned, partly through a long process of trial and error, what modifications to make to boot maker's recommendations, for each skater. It seems to me that some of the biggest problems arise when less knowledgeable fitters take what the boot makers say as absolutely correct.

[Casey]

My current blades are 11", just shy of the length of my boots.  I spent the first better part of a year skating lots of hours in overly large boots with 11.75" blades.  They worked well enough, surprisingly.  I didn't realize they were too big/long until right before I got new custom boots and shorter blades, and adjusting wasn't difficult.