Boot Stiffness Rating

[tstop4me]

I've not found any useful info after a Google search.  Most boot manufacturers now give stiffness ratings to their boots. 

Is there an industry standard that specifies how the stiffness is measured, such that, for example, a Riedell stiffness of 80 is the same as a Jackson stiffness of 80?  Or is this an arbitrary rating that varies from manufacturer to manufacturer?

How do the ratings scale?   For example, is a boot rated 100 twice as stiff as a boot rated 50?

[skategeek]

I've heard that they are not standardized across brands, but don't know much more than that, unfortunately.

[Loops]

When I got skates 3 years ago (after a 25 year hiatus), I was befuddled by this rating system as well, and never got a good answer.  I suspect there isn't one.  I don't assume anything with it, except that within one brand an 80 is going to be stiffer than a 45.  As a relative scale, I think its useful.  My feet go into skates before I buy them anyway.  I trust my body more than some number.....

[nicklaszlo]

I think it's arbitrary.

[dlbritton]

I spoke to someone at Riedell 2 years ago and asked if the stiffness rating system was an industry standard or a company specific rating and was told it was company specific (or at least he did not know if a Riedell boot with a 50 rating was the same as a Jackson with a 50 rating).

The ski industry has had a standardized stiffness rating system in place for a number of years, I don't understand why skate boot manufacturers don't have something similar.

[Nate]

The rating systems are all over the place, as are the "jump" recommendations for skate models within many brands.

Jackson Elites are rating 80 (85 for suede, I think) and for "Doubles and Triples," but they were literally the stiffest boots I have ever worn in my life. They didn't even start to crease and I wore them for months skating tons of doubles in them. I ordered Elite Supremes first (didn't like fit), and the Elites were actually stiffer by a noticeable margin despite a lower stiffness rating.

My Custom SP-Teri KT-2 boots are much softer than the stock model I bought less than two years ago (would probably last 6 months if I was skating/jumping regularly and running programs - maybe). They're about as stiff as the Klingbeil S-1 boots I had (I am REALLY disappointed with them, considering the price tag). Compared side by side with the stock boots, the leather is visibly thinner. So, you design tweaks are another issue. You may reorder same model but the stiffness may be more or less even if the manufacturer advertises the same rating.

Risport RF2-Super was comparable to the stock S-2 Klingbeils I had. They probably had the most accurate "rating," and a lot of that had to do with the design. Uber comfortable, too (but high heels).

You really need to try them on in the shop to see. Sometimes boots feel fine when heat molding because they're warm, and then feel completely different when you're on the ice. It's also easier to bend them off the ice, as well.

Ratings are only comparable within brands. Recommendations are only guidance and no information is gives regarding the size/weight of skaters those recommendations are aimed at.

I am not sure it's possible to standardize since materials and designs actually vary to a large degree within and across brands.

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[theoreticalgirl]

I think I'm really stretching it here, but I wonder if skating companies use ISO standards for boot stiffness ratings? Given that many of them are constructed of leather, I wonder if they need to adhere to ISO footwear standards:

http://www.iso.org/iso/products/standards/catalogue_ics_browse.htm?ICS1=61&ICS2=060

[tstop4me]

I am not sure it's possible to standardize since materials and designs actually vary to a large degree within and across brands.

A standardized functional test should be viable. If I were developing a standard, I would have a test jig with a simulated foot and shin (portion) coupled by a hinge to simulate an ankle joint.  Insert the simulated foot and shin into the boot and lace up.  Clamp the foot portion of the boot onto a fixed platform.  Now you can either apply a fixed reference torque to the shin and measure the angular deflection of the shin, or flex the shin to a fixed reference angle (by applying a torque to the shin) and measure the applied torque.  You can take measurements with different values of reference torque or reference angle.  This won't fully characterize all aspects of boot stiffness, but will give key figures of merit characterizing how easy or difficult it would be to bend at your ankle.  Such a test would be independent of material and design.  With the proper test jig design, you can characterize the stiffness when bending the ankle forward, backward, left, and right.

[tstop4me]

Jackson Elites are rating 80 (85 for suede, I think) and for "Doubles and Triples," but they were literally the stiffest boots I have ever worn in my life. They didn't even start to crease and I wore them for months skating tons of doubles in them. I ordered Elite Supremes first (didn't like fit), and the Elites were actually stiffer by a noticeable margin despite a lower stiffness rating.

Jackson rates the Elite Suede and the Elite Smooth both at 80.  I read your other post on Jacksons as well.  I think you must have gotten a defective pair.  I've been skating on the Elite Suede for almost a year and a half now.  I had no problems breaking them in or finding them way too stiff.

[Nate]

Jackson rates the Elite Suede and the Elite Smooth both at 80.  I read your other post on Jacksons as well.  I think you must have gotten a defective pair.  I've been skating on the Elite Suede for almost a year and a half now.  I had no problems breaking them in or finding them way too stiff.

I ordered Elite Supreme Leather first (85 Rating) and replaced them with Elite Suede (80 Rating). The Elites were stiffer by a fair margin. That in itself isn't a huge issue, but they would not break in at all.

Defective Boots are a possibility, however there's no resolution if the dealer says they're fine and Jackson says "contact the dealer, we don't deal with customers directly." I assumed what you are, because the boots do sound as if something in them is cracked or broken when flexed (as if something is wrong with the heat mold able inserts in them).


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[Nate]

A standardized functional test should be viable. If I were developing a standard, I would have a test jig with a simulated foot and shin (portion) coupled by a hinge to simulate an ankle joint.  Insert the simulated foot and shin into the boot and lace up.  Clamp the foot portion of the boot onto a fixed platform.  Now you can either apply a fixed reference torque to the shin and measure the angular deflection of the shin, or flex the shin to a fixed reference angle (by applying a torque to the shin) and measure the applied torque.  You can take measurements with different values of reference torque or reference angle.  This won't fully characterize all aspects of boot stiffness, but will give key figures of merit characterizing how easy or difficult it would be to bend at your ankle.  Such a test would be independent of material and design.  With the proper test jig design, you can characterize the stiffness when bending the ankle forward, backward, left, and right.

I still see issues with the system based on what I stated above. Too fancy factors not taken into account which can result in a lot of unhappy consumers.

Not that the current model is any better. It most likely isn't so it's not like you proposal wouldn't be a potential massive improvement, anyways.

[severina]

Stiffness rating is really strange.  My daughter, who's 6 1/2 was in Jackson Artiste at age 4.  These are supposed to not be stiff.  She could never bend.  Went to Edea Overture and she was able to bend from day one and her progress shot through the roof.

My old harlicks were always double duo bond and then triple bond.  Not sure what the rating was.  When I went to the ice fly they never felt stiff, but offerred support, then I just got the pianos.  They feel much stiffer and still feel the same, and I am loving them.  The stiffness rating between the ice fly and the pianos is only 5 points, but I'd say it should be more like 20 points realistically, if we were going by difference.