Jackson Freestyles breaking down quickly, and other problems

[VAsk8r]

So, I skate about 5 hours a week, including a half-hour lesson. My practice time probably averages about 70 percent jumps/spins and 30 percent moves and footwork. I'm currently focusing on sit and camel spins, single combo jumps and lutz jumps, along with my adult bronze moves and backward 3-turns.

I'm 28 years old, 5'4ish and weigh about 115 pounds. My boot size, in Jacksons, is a 6.5C. My feet are pretty short and wide.

I'm sharing all this because I'm really struggling with my skates. I'm in my second pair of Jackson Freestyles within the last year and a half. The first pair broke down in about 9-10 months, and I've had this pair for 7 months now and my coach is telling me to plan on getting new ones in three months.

She says this is normal, but everyone else tells me my skates should last at least a year. There's a teen girl at my rink doing axels who also wears Freestyles, and she says she's had hers about a year and a half.

Before this, I had Jackson Classiques, and they lasted almost 2 years, as I worked my way through crossovers
up through toe loops.

The other problem I'm having is that there is a fair amount of space between the top of my left foot, about
where my toes begin, and where the tongue begins in my skate. The result of this is that my tongue slides down
a little into my skate and bunches up on top of my foot in that area, and it gets really uncomfortable for awhile. I've tried a few things to take up space in that area so the tongue wouldn't slide down, but they were either really difficult to get in the right spot or really uncomfortable.

This has been an issue only with my current pair of Freestyles. The previous pair I had was great and
didn't do this at all. I have no idea why this pair is different.

I lace the skates up as tightly as I can, but they still start to feel fairly loose after a half hour or so. I'm using the laces they came with, and sometimes they're so long I have to triple-knot them. I don't think my skates are too wide; if anything they may be just a teeny bit too narrow.

By the way, I skate with no socks or tights or anything, just bare feet. I tried skating first in thin socks, then those Mondor knee-high things, for about six months, and they didn't make any difference either in breakdown rate or with the tongue-sliding problem.

So, my questions are, when I shop for new skates, should I consider going the next level up to the Jackson Competitors? Should I ditch Jackson altogether and try a different brand? Is the tongue issue just a fluke or am I likely to deal with this with the next pair?

My figure skating club is really small and we have no pro shop whatsoever in our rink, so it's hard to compare notes with other adults or try on different brands. I realize I'll probably ultimately have to find someone who really knows how to fit skates and make a road trip, but I wanted to check here first. Thanks for your feedback!

[momomizu]

I'm not an expert by any means, but I suggest maybe getting a boot upgrade? Maybe the Freestyles just aren't stiff enough for you anymore.

[jjane45]

I'm not an expert by any means, but I suggest maybe getting a boot upgrade? Maybe the Freestyles just aren't stiff enough for you anymore.

When I graduated from classiques around fs3, fitter wanted to put me into used elites or new competitors, bypassing freestyle altogether. I ended up with used competitors for about a year and half now.

[sarahspins]

Space above the toes can be fixed with some padding under the insole.  You can just pull the insole out, tape some 1mm EVA foam (same as the colored craft foam you can buy almost everywhere for less than $1 a sheet) underneath where you think you need it, and layer it up as necessary.  It will eventually compress over time but it's really cheap and easily replaced.

If you are breaking down boots in less than a year I'd say it's time to move up to a stiffer boot.. it's not always about weight or skill level, some skaters are just harder on boots than others are (I know, I'm one of those).  I'd skip the competitor because it's not actually that much stiffer than the freestyle, and you'll probably find yourself in the same position within a year. Premiere's would probably be a good option, but even Elites aren't necessarily going to be too much boot either - I skate in Elite Plus and while I'm working on axels/doubles on the harness I'm not landing them off (I had those jumps as a teenager though - part of my problem now is a lack of confidence and fear of injury as an adult). 

My boots are currently two years old and still going strong... they broke in pretty quickly for me and show no signs of breaking down.

[MadMac]

Adding to all the good advice in the previous replies--  My coach wears the higher level Jacksons. She does axels, doubles, killer spins, and lots of deep deep edging -- all very hard on the skates.  Her complaint was also room in the toebox over the front of the foot. She had problems with the tongue sliding down and buckling just as you describe. Her initial solution to all that was, yes, filling in some space on the tops of her toes with spongy padding.  This helped, but it wasn't enough. The tongues continued to bunch up.  Finally she had the tongues re-sewn into the skate. Had the shoe repair shop add some tacking a bit further up on the sides of the tongue. This helped tremendously. In one pair she had them stitched down side-to-side right across the lace at the bottom. You could actually start the lacing in the next hole up so you don't tack the laces permanently to the boot.

Before having this stitching added, she completely detached the tongues and experimented with the placement of the tongue. She actually went several weeks with the tongues unattached. Just opened the laces very wide, slipped the foot into the boot, then slid the tongue in under the laces before lacing up.

Hope this all makes sense and is helpful to know that you are not the only one experiencing the traveling Jackson tongues!!

[VAsk8r]

Thanks for all the great suggestions! I think I will first try adding the foam under my foot where the tongue is buckling. It hadn't occurred to me to try something under the foot. Someone at my rink suggested having a loop put in the tongue for me to put my laces through, to help force it to pull up, but said whatever held the loop in place could press into my foot and cause more issues.

I'm hopeful that problem just goes away with the next pair I buy!

My coach told me earlier this week that she thought I was skating "harder," as we noticed that I'd completely blown my right outside edge three weeks after a sharpening.

Sarah, if I end up going with the Premiere or Elite boots, what blade would you recommend? Again, I'm doing bronze moves and jumps up through lutz (well...working on lutz!), and these boots would hopefully last me into axel. The idea of buying boots and blades separately makes me nervous, but I've been reading over and over again about how bad the Freestyle blades are.

[AgnesNitt]

I've skating in several Jackson boots, and the Competitors and the Classiques both had the tongue slippage issue, but only on my power foot.  I would just tug the tongue into place as I laced up and it would stay.
I don't have that problem on my Jackson Finesse, but I did have to do layers under my insoles to get the right boot to fit. One gel pad under my toes, one neoprene pad over that for my forefoot, and then the insole.
I've tried padding on top of the foot and it didn't work for me, so I always 'build up' from the bottom, to push my foot up into the boot.

[drskater]

The best advice I can offer is to discuss your issues with a good skate tech and/or a Jacksons dealer. If you are indeed a "VA" skater please feel free to PM me and I can give you the contact info for Mike Cunningham (located in Waldorf MD). He is the best!

IMHO, I agree with Sarahspins that Jackson Premieres sound good for you.

Blades are a whole other matter. (Did you read the thread http://skatingforums.com/index.php/topic,3092.0.html ?) There are so many considerations: radius, power, edges, stability, weight...luckily there are also lots of terrific options!

Good luck!

[irenar5]

Someone at my rink suggested having a loop put in the tongue for me to put my laces through, to help force it to pull up, but said whatever held the loop in place could press into my foot and cause more issues.

I have had that issue with my Riedell tongue.  Riedell ended up making a loop right on top of the tongue, around the level of 2nd  They just cut out little slits and threaded the lace through.  It solved the issue instantly and I never felt any pressure.  While I sent the boot out to Riedell to get it done, I think it would be easy to do yourself.  PM me if you'd like a photo

[sarahspins]

what blade would you recommend?

Regardless of what boot you end up with, I'd look at the Legacy/Matrix Legacy or Coronation Ace/Professional.. all are "around" $200.  If I hadn't already been skating in Phantoms (I reused my blades when I returned to skating 2 years ago) it's what I'd have gone with.  I learned my axel and three doubles on Professionals.  I moved up to Phantoms when I was 16 because all the "cool kids" had them (yes, I'm admitting it).  I did recently upgrade my blades to paramounts and stayed with the phantom profile, but I only did so knowing that with the 440 stainless steel and increased time between sharpening, I'll have those blades for a very long time.. and since I'm used to skating on that profile I had very little adjustment to the new blades

There's really no compelling reason to go to a higher blade unless your coach is recommending it or you just really really want to - it's not going to hurt anything except your budget, but I know even the more reasonably priced options can seem like a lot.  It is a huge jump when you go from a $200 boot/blade combo to basically spending no less than twice that.. but stiffer boots should last you longer unless you're training really hard.  As long as you don't change brands or sizes you'll also probably be able to use the same blades on more than one pair of boots.  The phantoms that I replaced had about 6 years of regular skating on them and could have gone for another year (or more).

[VAsk8r]

Just wanted to update to say I did go with Sarah's suggestion to add foam to the insole of my skate to solve the issue of my tongue buckling. I bought a sheet of it at Michael's for less than $1.00, cut it into several strips and taped them to the insole. The padding covers about 40 percent of my insole, starting about at the base of my toes.

It hasn't completely solved the problem, but it has really helped. Usually I can get through an hour of skating without having to completely un-lace to pull up the tongue.

I'll be shopping for new boots and blades within the next month, probably.

[slcbelle]

I'll jump in but I preface by saying (beg your pardon if you've heard this from me before) that I've just returned to skating after decades off so my experience is very, very limited but... 

The coach at my rink in SLC who sells boots to all the skaters recommended I go with the Jackson Premier boot and Legacy blade.  I've just started Basic 5 (with some Basic 6 mixed in  ), FWIW.  While I have only 7 days of skating on them, I noticed the right tongue was slipping to the outside.  I am also in a 6.5C and am 5'4" and 119lbs.  Being that I needed wider boots to accommodate the boney sides of my forefeet, I found that there was too much volume in the toe area, not enough arch support (I was pronating a bit), and I have less control than desired. 

Today, after practice, I went to REI and bought a pair of Superfeet Copper DMP insoles, which have a layer of memory foam, and it seems like they filled out the volume perfectly and provide more arch support.    http://www.superfeet.com/products/Copper_DMP.aspx  I tried the yellow Superfeet made for skates but neither they, nor the blue ones, filled up volume or supported my insoles like the Copper.  When I got home, I replaced the Elite insoles with the Superfeet and reheated the Premiers with the hairdryer.  Then I carefully laced my skates, tightly, concentrating on straightening the tongues direction over my shins and bent my ankles until the liners cooled down completely.

We'll see how this all plays out but I wanted to share since we're the same size and I'm in the Premier with Legacy blade as mentioned above.  As for the blades, they seem fine.  I just have to get over my fear of catching the toe pick.  I'm, obviously, not doing jumps.

[irenar5]

I noticed the right tongue was slipping to the outside.

This is, unfortunately, a very common problem and not exclusive to Jacksons.  Some boot manufacturers are adding hooks on the tongue to prevent the tongue from twisting.  It has to do with uneven distribution of volume in the ankle. 
Harlick website has a good explanation about twisting and also suggestions on how to deal with it.

[treesprite]

Are your feet particularly narrow (which I'm asking because of the gap)?  If they are, you might want to go with Reidell because their widths are scaled narrower with a narrower toe box. 

Do you have pronation in your feet, especially the one with the tongue issue?  Pronation can cause skates to brake down much faster than normal. My old Reidell Silver Stars broke down with only a year of gentle skating, with the right one doing so drastically faster than the left one because I have pronation in my right foot.

Another consideration is that boots warm up after a while in them so they get looser and have to be re-tied.  What I do is leave the skates on untied for a few minutes before I tie them, because then I get a more accurate tightness before I get on the ice, and don't have to get off and re-tie in only 15 minutes.  If you do your fitting by trying on sizes of stock boots, also do this procedure to make sure you get the proper size.

I am a believer in booting up.  I have Jackson Elite Plus boots and so far have only re-gained small jumps (toe loops, salchows, 1/2 flips), but to me the boots are not too stiff for this level.  If you already know that you will be working on heavier jumps within the next year, don't be too afraid to boot up a level, just tie them so that the top of the boot has room to let you bend.

I got Coronation Ace blades recently and they are great.  I had MK Pros on the last two pairs of skates I had.  These are both good blades for you level and up through double jumps.  If your blades are still good when your boots break down, you can use the same blades on the new boots.

[SynchKat]

No advice but my Jackson books have broken down really quickly.  I have been skating more than ever lately but wow they have broken down quickly.  Not as quick as yours but they are like slippers now.  I can get super deep knee bend though.   

I have Competitors so if you are wanting a pair for long term (my Wifas never broke down this quickly) I'd suggest something more substantial. 

If you want some facts...I've had the skates 3 years.  For 2 of those years I was skating maybe 4 or 5 hours a week.  Lately I'm at least 5 or 6 hours a week, sometimes more.

[sarahspins]

My elite plus are 2 years old and the only real signs of wear are some small holes developing in the linings from where the stitching on the tongues rubs on the inside of the boot, it's not wear from my feet.  They are nicely broken in - but nowhere near being broken down.

I bought a pair of Premiere's last year to try out and I didn't really think they would have held up for me for more than one season - in terms of support they were okay (I like stiffer boots though), but I know if I had kept wearing them regularly I'd have broken them down by now, and that says nothing about the durability of the boots, and everything about how hard I am on boots in general.

I guess part of what I am wondering from this thread though, is how long do people expect their boots to last them?  I think there's a fine line between having "enough" support in a boot without having too much, and then having unrealistic expectations about how long that boot will last... leather breaks down, that's just an unfortunate fact, and even being over booted won't necessarily prevent that.  For an adult, I'd consider 2-3 years of use as normal... not "my boots broke down really quickly".

I broke down a pair of Super Teri Deluxe's as a teenager (which was the stiffest stock boot they made) in about 7 months and I would consider that really quick... 3 years is not quick.

[Sk8tmum]

I would say for someone who is skating 4 to 5 days a week, and jumping and spinning beyond a toe loop and a scratch spin, and is skating as opposed to socializing   - 2 years would be more than reasonable.

Buying stiff boots to make them last longer to save money is often false economy.  If it slows down your progression, as overly stiff boots generally will, then, you are spending more on lessons and using your ice time less effectively.  You also hamper your ability to skate as you need to be able to bend a boot to skate in it correctly.

[VAsk8r]

Slcbelle - it sounds like we're almost twins! However, my arches are pretty flat, and as far as I know I don't pronate. I actually had to look that term up.

I would like to see my next pair of skates last about two years if I continue skating around five hours a week. That seems reasonable based on what I hear from other adults who skate about the same amount.

I've been considering the Premiere boots, but I need to talk to my coach more about how she feels I'll do breaking in stiffer boots since I'm only working on lutzes. I'm a little concerned with heading into competition season. (My first comp is in six weeks, and then I have another comp and a test at the end of June.) My coach going to send me to a pro shop a couple of hours away to get my new skates, so I'll be talking to someone who knows what they're doing.

There's another skater at my rink who wants me to try on a pair of Riedell Gold Stars that she has, with Coronation Ace blades. Based on everything I've read, the Gold Stars may be just too stiff, and I don't think I have good feet for Riedells, but it doesn't hurt to try them on.

My feet are short and wide. I think they may be (due to my low arch) not as thick/tall as most people's feet, which is why I have so much room in the toe box for the tongue to push down.

Treesprite, thanks for the lacing tip. I hadn't even thought about that, but that's a good suggestion, and I'll try it.

[VAsk8r]

Just to close the loop here...I drove up to get fitted at a highly recommended pro shop today, and I wound up with...Jackson Premieres with Legacy blades! Exactly what I had in mind based on all of your responses. I didn't suggest them to the person fitting me, he just went in that direction.

But here was the big shocker for me: my current skates turned out to be a full size too long. I've had my feet measured several times and it always came back with the 6 1/2C, but this guy said I was a 5 or 5 1/2. And he had me pull the insoles out of my old skates and showed me how they were much longer than my foot.

I ended up getting 5 1/2 C's, and going with a D width was discussed but deemed unnecessary.

I was so surprised my skates were too long! Now, it makes sense to explain a lot of my issues. I'm hoping the adjustment won't be too big and having smaller skates will solve the problem with the tongue sliding down.

[sarahspins]

I wonder if the sizing issue has to do with why your others broke down so fast (in addition to the tongue issue you noted).  Proper fit does a lot to extend the life of a pair of boots.

Glad to hear the fitter was thinking along the same lines as the rest of us - you should love your new skates

[VAsk8r]

I wonder if the sizing issue has to do with why your others broke down so fast (in addition to the tongue issue you noted).  Proper fit does a lot to extend the life of a pair of boots.

I think it did! The fitter looked at how they had broken down and felt it was largely because of the sizing issue. Turns out another kid from my rink had Freestyles two sizes too big and his broke down in six months.

I can't wait to get the new skates. It'll probably be a couple of weeks before they arrive and I can go back up to the pro shop for the fitting.

[sarahspins]

Just bumping this up from the depths now that you've skated on your new boots/blades a few times now - how are you liking them?

[VAsk8r]

Just bumping this up from the depths now that you've skated on your new boots/blades a few times now - how are you liking them?

I'm still breaking them in and since they're a different size and upgraded blade and boot, it's been a tough break-in. One thing I find weird about the Premieres is the tongue is mostly flat across the top, and then curves on the sides. The part where it's curving is digging into my legs. I'm hoping it'll adjust itself with a little more time, but if not I may need to get some pads.

The issue with the tongue sliding down is completely gone! It sits right where it should, and there seems to be no chance it'll slide.

Skating in them is getting easier, and one thing my coach commented on as soon as she saw me skating in them was how much quieter I am. That's something we've really been working on, so yay!

[Nate]

Moleskin or Bunga Pads for the tongue issue.