Single Jump Wrapping

[drskater]

This is an interesting question!

ITA with the posts above that many excellent coaches can teach elements that they themselves have never done. Many high level skaters just can't teach--they often try to coach by performing the elements and expecting the skater to mimic them. For example, I know a sweet young coach who is almost magical in her ability to teach single jumps. Yet she (a high level skater) teaches every jump with super-crossed feet, virtually insuring that her skaters will cheat their doubles when they get to that point.

At the same time, there are some coaches who simply have no business teaching anything out of basic skills. My old coach taught me the waltz jump incorrectly because he/she couldn't do one the proper way.

For myself, I prefer a coach with lots of experience a varied background in teaching all kinds of skaters. It doesn't matter what the coach can do (or did--lol); it's the students' results that best reflect the ability of a coach.

[icefrog]

Why will super crossed feet on a single cause the doubles to be cheated? I'm just curious, and I've never seen a crossed single lol

[drskater]

As I understand it--through observation and not  personal experience-- the overly-crossed leg contributes to landing a jump under-rotated (as the leg un -crosses) so that half of the rotation takes place on landing (and hence is cheated). Hope that makes sense....

[icefrog]

So the jump is really tight in the air and the skater doesn't 'un wrap" until they hit the ice facing fowards?

[phoenix]

As I understand it--through observation and not  personal experience-- the overly-crossed leg contributes to landing a jump under-rotated (as the leg un -crosses) so that half of the rotation takes place on landing (and hence is cheated). Hope that makes sense....

Do you mean the leg is wrapped? Meaning, not crossed at the ankles, but higher up sort of at the knees w/ a very bent left leg (assuming a CCW jumper)?

[drskater]

Yes! All of the above. Sorry, I didn't describe what I meant all that effectively.

[techskater]

By super crossed feet, do you mean a wrap?  If you need a visual, go find a program by Yukari Nakano...

[drskater]

Yes, "wrapped" is more precise and what I meant.

Sorry for the thread drift...but here is a vid of the skater techskater mentions:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YBdT_lYkXUw

[FigureSpins]

For example, I know a sweet young coach who is almost magical in her ability to teach single jumps. Yet she (a high level skater) teaches every jump with super-crossed feet, virtually insuring that her skaters will cheat their doubles when they get to that point.

Your statements contradict each other: she teaches singles really well, but you're sure she's ruining the skaters for doubles?  Unless you're actually watching every single lesson she gives and she has students working on doubles that are struggling with this, you might be making a prediction that won't come true.

Skaters should be doing singles in a more-open position than doubles and triples.  Leg wraps are a no-no, but there are elite skaters who can land clean doubles and triples even with a leg wrap.  It's mostly ugly and might prevent them from getting the extra rotation on the next learning progression, which is why most coaches try to stamp it out early.

I watched a double jump lesson the other day where the PSA Master-rated coach (who is awesome) had the skater land with the feet crossed purposely.  It was a training drill to stop the skater from popping his double jumps by opening up in the air before landing.  I don't see a need for it on singles, but she might think it prepares them for doubles or she might be having the skaters land that way so that they can use the knee up-and-out motion to check out the landing.

You could just ask her why she teaches that way.


As for the "incorrect waltz jump," there are different ways teach that jump - we just discussed that in the coaching forum.  Different doesn't always mean wrong, but there should be a valid reason other than "that's how I do it."

[FigureSpins]

By super crossed feet, do you mean a wrap?  If you need a visual, go find a program by Yukari Nakano...

Oooo- that's an ugly wrap. 

The jump's fully rotated, but she can't check out the landing to stop rotation, so she's spinning on the ice upon landing since she can't lift the knee for the up-and-out free leg movement to check it.

[drskater]

Your statements contradict each other: she teaches singles really well, but you're sure she's ruining the skaters for doubles?  Unless you're actually watching every single lesson she gives and she has students working on doubles that are struggling with this, you might be making a prediction that won't come true.

...

You could just ask her why she teaches that way.


As for the "incorrect waltz jump," there are different ways teach that jump - we just discussed that in the coaching forum.  Different doesn't always mean wrong, but there should be a valid reason other than "that's how I do it."

Haha, yes, to quote the poet, "Do I contradict myself? Very well, I contradict myself--I am huge, I contain multitudes" (Or something like that).

I simply based my opinion on my observations that all her students will land their wrapped-leg singles forwards, the legs in a "X" and then fall forwards, usually. Then when they stop falling they cheat the landing because the leg is still wrapped when hitting the ice. So, I guess I just wonder what is going to happen when she teaches doubles (she's new; none of her students has gotten to doubles yet). But, you're right--She should get the benefit of the doubt. I do adore her and only want the best for her and her skaters. She's so new that she is still insecure. I really wouldn't feel comfortable asking her about her technique, especially since she already gets poop from some senior coaches.

As for the waltz jump.... sure I know there are tons of different teaching methods. Perhaps by "incorrect," I should have said completely uneffective.  Not just for me, but all his/her students (of which there were 4). He/she was also corrected during her/his own lessons. And there's more to the story. Allow me to say that in this particular instance, there really is a better way to teach this jump.

[FigureSpins]

This may just illustrate what many people have said: high-level skaters don't always make the best coaches.  She probably needs more experience and coaching knowledge but being insecure, she might feel comfortable pursuing that knowledge.  That's one thing that the various workshops can provide: a comfortable place to learn without feeling self-conscious in front of your peers.

[Nate]

Midori Ito wraped as well.

I get ankle contact in my singles.  They're fine.

I don't wrap, though.

If I do get a botched takeoff and the jump wraps then I have to bail out of it.  Nothing feels balanced when you're rotating with you skate dangling out to the side.

I don't know how people can do it.

We had a girl here who badly wraped her jump and she had some of hte most spectacular falls I've ever seen (at least in person).

Believe it or not, for some people that air position is easier and more natural for them than the "recommended" backspin position.  Lots of top skaters wrapped, and had no issues rotating tripples or doing combinations.

The MOST famous wrapper is Midori Ito.  Look what she was doing in the 80s with her wrap, much less NOW with the better equipment (boots/blades) available.

[techskater]

Midori did not technically wrap as she did not have her thighs pressed together and a knee to knee position that is a wrapped jump.  What Midori had was the same position throughout the jump (basically if you look at the lift off position of most skaters it would be equal to Midori's entire air position as she never got the pressed down part of jumps where a skater is basically ankle to ankle).  She never needed to get to the tightened part of the air position because of the height she was able to consistently achieve and her rotational speed. 

[FigureSpins]

I always consider a "wrap" to be that open-ankle position moreso than the open knee/leg, in the air.  Other skaters can cross their ankles mid-air, but the free foot swings wildly on landing, which is ineffective for checking out a jump.

Ito was an incredible jumper, being able to turn that fast in the air without being in a tight, closed position.

[MimiG]

Here's an awesome video of Midori Ito in slow motion, so you can really see just how open she is - it's amazing!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZzAC5eHTTs

[Nate]

Lots of skaters who wrap tend to wrap less on Axels because that jump requires more rotation.  They have no choice but to pull in/down at least a bit more to get them around consistently.

Her Flip and Lutz were wrapped much worse, her leg was consistently above her knee and sometimes at hip height in her lutz.

[techskater]

A wrap is knee to knee though, and Ito was NEVER knee to knee (again, think Nakano) but rather OPEN and turned out at the hip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cyu8GYBRIjE

[Sierra]

I see so many skaters at my rink wrap their double loops, lutzes, flips and salchows. Some even wrap the axels and toes. But I noticed that the skaters don't seem to be coming from one particular coach, in fact it seems completely random as to which skater wraps and which doesn't. Ex., one skater of Coach A wraps her double sal and flip, and another one who also takes from Coach A has nice ankle contact on all her jumps. So obviously they get into the habit by themselves, and apparently the coach doesn't bother to fix it.

I just wince every time I see a jump that is so extremely wrapped, it's kind of difficult to tell whether or not the skater did two rotations. It also makes it near impossible to see the height of the jump.

[FigureSpins]

To count revolutions, my West German coach used to say "count da nose."  In other words: Count how many times the skater's nose comes around to the same place. 

Wraps can come from strength/body type issues as well as technique and habit.

I wouldn't think it was a particular coach telling students to wrap their leg and honestly, I wouldn't critique someone else unless I was asked to do so.