skatingforums
On the Ice => The Pro Shop => Topic started by: Query on October 05, 2020, 11:04:49 AM
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My question was more rhetorical: how much is the weight difference really going to be between the GS Rev. and the Phoenix? 0.02 oz?
This is all hypothetical for now.
But
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9LCIKcnkQjM
and
https://www.facebook.com/pg/johnwilsonblades/posts
both say
quote]46% lighter than traditional blades, with a full carbon fibre body and stainless steel runner - it's the lightest blade ever made.[/quote]
I get that your question was rhetorical, nonetheless. I don't know how much lighter they claim Revolution are than traditional blades, but if you do, and the weight of your current blades, you can figure out approximately how much lighter.
Do you feel that the weight of a blade (even, traditional vs Revolution) significantly affects your skating?
Other people here have said the carbon body of the revolution blades makes for a softer landing (or something like that). I wonder if the same will hold true for Phoenix blades.
The lack of hollow grinding (presumably, on the sides, like a hollow ground knife) only affects weight, not the interaction with the ice, and maybe would make the runners very slightly less strong. So, aside from weight, which you are already considering, you can ignore hollow grinding.
But do you feel tapered blades work for you better? Conversely, some people say they prefer parabolic blades. And other people say the differences in shape are too small to actually make a difference, other than psychological. At one point, I believe Bill_S did some measurements, and found that such shaping didn't actually extend down to the working surfaces, so presumably can't make any difference. Do I have that right, Bill?
Anyway, I think what John Wilson is doing makes a lot of sense. The less information is available, the more interested people will be in finding it out. So minimal information is a form of advertising.
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But do you feel tapered blades work for you better? Conversely, some people say they prefer parabolic blades. And other people say the differences in shape are too small to actually make a difference, other than psychological. At one point, I believe Bill_S did some measurements, and found that such shaping didn't actually extend down to the working surfaces, so presumably can't make any difference. Do I have that right, Bill?
With my set of standard Gold Seals, you are correct. The side honing didn't extend to the skating edge. It would take quite a few sharpenings to grind off enough to reach the side hone, IIRC.
The tapered blades (thicker at the front than the back) felt a little different to skate on, but it was very subtle. The thing that I remember most about my trial with Gold Seals was how easy it was to get a loud "rip" using just modest edges. They were noisy - something that I attribute to the tapered blade.
They had a longer runner than other blades I experimented with. But I liked them, and still have them. I finished the end of the last season on Pattern 99 blades just because they were the last ones mounted when everything closed. (It's still closed. :()
BTW, my Gold Seals (size 10.25") weighed 370 grams per blade.
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The lack of hollow grinding (presumably, on the sides, like a hollow ground knife) only affects weight, not the interaction with the ice, and maybe would make the runners very slightly less strong. So, aside from weight, which you are already considering, you can ignore hollow grinding.
But do you feel tapered blades work for you better? Conversely, some people say they prefer parabolic blades. And other people say the differences in shape are too small to actually make a difference, other than psychological. At one point, I believe Bill_S did some measurements, and found that such shaping didn't actually extend down to the working surfaces, so presumably can't make any difference. Do I have that right, Bill?
We discussed these issues in Bill's previous thread (http://skatingforums.com/index.php?topic=8464.0). Light weight is not a primary design factor for the traditional Gold Seals; otherwise, they wouldn't have the solid sole plates (no cutouts). As far as I know, only the Gold Seals, and some copycats, have solid sole plates. The purpose of the concave side honing is not to reduce weight. Properly done, it reconfigures the edge geometry, reducing the included angle and increasing the bite. On Bill's sample, it was not properly done (the sides in the critical chrome relief region that defines the working edges were parallel instead of concave), and the concave side honing was all for nought. We don't know whether his sample was an outlier, or representative of Gold Seals.
Bill did find the taper in thickness extending to the working edges. For a fixed ROH, the included angle is a function of thickness: smaller included angle/more bite as the thickness increases. At least in theory, a tapered blade provides more bite/less glide towards the front of the blade and less bite/more glide towards the tail of the blade. But I think that would make things worse for moves such as back threes. The parabolic profile (thicker towards the front, thinner towards the middle, thicker towards the tail) makes more sense to me, at least in theory, and if executed properly.
The Paramount version of the Gold Seal has parallel sides: no concave side honing, no taper in thickness. I know two freestylists/coaches who have skated on both the traditional Gold Seals (with tapered thickness and concave side honing) and the Paramount version. One found no difference in edge control; one found better edge control with the genuine Wilson. This, of course, is a very small sample; and there are other factors such as variation in manufacturing and variation in sharpening (these variations can easily negate any target design advantages).
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We discussed these issues in Bill's previous thread (http://skatingforums.com/index.php?topic=8464.0).
My comments and question were addressed to the o.p., not Bill. I wondered whether she felt there was a sacrifice getting parallel sided blades. Other than the "noise" effect.
The purpose of the concave side honing is not to reduce weight. Properly done, it reconfigures the edge geometry, reducing the included angle and increasing the bite. On Bill's blades, it was not properly done (the sides in the critical chrome relief region that defines the working edges were parallel instead of concave), and the concave side honing was all for nought. We don't know whether his sample was an outlier, or representative of Gold Seals.
I too used to assume it was a way of increasing sharpness. It's been a technique discussed in that context at least since the 19th century.
But do you know of any blades that are hollow ground where the hollow extends down to the section that contacts the ice? The only blades I know that have that specify a hollow grind are a few from MK and JW. If even Gold Seals don't extend down - absent other information, I see know reason to assume Bill's are atypical - I would assume the others don't either - in which case it's all just hype, on modern blades.
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But do you know of any blades that are hollow ground where the hollow extends down to the section that contacts the ice? The only blades I know that have that specify a hollow grind are a few from MK and JW. If even Gold Seals don't extend down - absent other information, I see know reason to assume Bill's are atypical - I would assume the others don't either - in which case it's all just hype, on modern blades.
Besides the Wilson Gold Seal, the only other blade I'm aware of that has concave side honing is the Eclipse Pinnacle traditional version (the lightweight titanium version doesn't). I don't know whether the side honing extends all the way to the working edges or not. I've only seen the Pinnacle in passing at a pro shop; never did a closeup inspection of the edges. The Pinnacle is Eclipse's nominal knockoff of the Gold Seal. It too has a solid sole plate; so weight reduction is not a high priority.
Until I read Bill's review on the Gold Seal, it would never have occurred to me to check those either. I'm hoping that Bill's sample is an outlier (I never said it was an outlier, only that we don't know whether it's an outlier or not). Concave side honing obviously adds production costs, and makes the blade more difficult to sharpen and check. Hard to imagine that Wilson, or any other manufacturer, would intentionally go to all that trouble, and then consistently screw it up. But we need field data to find out. I'm not assuming anything. We just don't know. You're now assuming all the manufacturers of such blades are idiots or frauds (without any evidence other than Bill's single report on the Gold Seal). Perhaps they are, perhaps they aren't. We just don't know, until we check a larger sample of blades.
I'm not aware of any MK blade with concave side honing. There is the MK Phantom Special (which I've never seen), which MK claims is side honed to produce a dovetailed edge profile; again, ostensibly to produce an edge configuration with a smaller included angle and more bite. But that also assumes that the dovetail extends to the working edge, and is not messed up in the critical chrome relief region. Some of the Ultima blades also claim to have a dovetailed edge profile [just to add to an already confusing set of terminology, Ultima uses the term "tapered runner" to refer to a dovetail, not to a runner that is thicker towards the front and thinner towards the tail, as Wilson does]. Again, I've only casually viewed Ultima blades at a pro shop, never carefully inspected their edges.
In the absence of field data, we don't know what the edge configuration of blades of yesteryear were either; i.e., did their concave side honing extend down to the working edges? Why assume the concave side honing on only modern blades is empty hype?
[ETA: Edited original for clarification.]
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In the absence of field data, we don't know what the edge configuration of blades of yesteryear were either; i.e., did their concave side honing extend down to the working edges? Why assume the concave side honing on only modern blades is empty hype?
Because the 19th century description I found on edge shaping was aimed at describing how to shape the blades, and was not advertising hype by a manufacturer. And it included a dose of skepticism regarding whether or not various shaping techniques (including tapering, and if I remember right parabolic shapes, and various types of side honing) made a difference. I find it amazing that the debate continues to this day. It would seem like there would be a way to resolve it, and that there has been enough time to do so.
OTOH, if you look at the literature on knives and swords, there has been a lot of hype dating back millennia. E.g., some people said they sharpened swords and fighting knives sharp enough to shave with - but such narrow edges would presumably have been too fragile for serious swordplay. And the literature regarding swords gives them wills and personalities - so I guess you could claim there has always been a bit of hype in everything.
BTW, can you figure out a reason why a tapered blade would make a grinding noise? I have a theory, which may be completely wrong. I assume the noise is caused by a carfully controlled side skid. I hypothesize that all the blade blanks start out the same thickness. If so, the back of a tapered blade is narrower than most figure blades. So - if they have an ROH and degree of other types of sharpness appropriate to the front width, the rear width creates a less narrow edge angle, and less net sharpness - so it skids a little bit. Does that sound plausible? But I lack the data to support that hypothesis. I would need to take careful measurements of the blade to have a better idea of what might be happening. I'm not even sure everyone gets the same sound effects as Bill.
Or - what if Gold Seals really do have a will of their own? :) They growl to announce themselves to the world! ::>)
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OTOH, if you look at the literature on knives and swords, there has been a lot of hype dating back millennia. E.g., some people said they sharpened swords and fighting knives sharp enough to shave with - but such narrow edges would presumably have been too fragile for serious swordplay. And the literature regarding swords gives them wills and personalities - so I guess you could claim there has always been a bit of hype in everything.
Or - what if Gold Seals really do have a will of their own? :) They growl to announce themselves to the world! ::>)
oh lord, this is strongly reminding me of a certain favorite show of mine: NOS4A2 where a "nosferatu" drives around a car from the 1930s. "The Wraith" car that literally has a personality of its own and can suck souls out of small children (because drinking blood to restore your immortality is so passé). The car is his "knife", a tool for his mental powers. And yes, my skates would definitely be my "knife", but rather amazing if their personality was so huge that they literally growled. I promise not to suck souls out of small children in the ice rink once my new skates arrive in the mail. *nods sagely*
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I like that show too! Who wouldn't feel sorry for poor innocent Millie? ::>)
But Buffy was better.
I remember a tale of a sword that, once drawn, could not be sheathed without taking a life.
So, if you unsheath the same blades as Olympic Gold Medalists, you too will win metals. :) We look forward to the incredible progress you will attain in your Revolutions.
Good luck!
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Warning about the Phoenix blades.
My skate tech can't sharpen them & he is the only guy around. (with about 30 years experience & 4 different blade holders)
Company I bought blades from may not accept them back because they were mounted.
Possible $650.00 down the drain.
Not happy.
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My skate tech can't sharpen them & he is the only guy around. (with about 30 years experience & 4 different blade holders)
Company I bought blades from may not accept them back because they were mounted.
Possible $650.00 down the drain.
Not happy.
Did your skate tech say why he couldn't sharpen them?
E.g., was it because he doesn't have wheels for stainless steel, or they don't fit any of his blade holders?
If the latter - It is true that the pictures make it look like Phoenix blades have mounting pieces that enclose the runner, so they stick out a little, unlike most MK and JW blades, but so do Jackson Matrix and Paramount blades. Does your tech have the blade holders to sharpen those?
I feel for you. It's not like they are cheap throwaways.
Have you skated on them? Regardless, were I you, I would contact JW,
https://www.johnwilsonskates.com/contact-us
and ask if they will take them back, and also suggest they warn people about the problem.
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Warning about the Phoenix blades.
My skate tech can't sharpen them & he is the only guy around. (with about 30 years experience & 4 different blade holders)
Company I bought blades from may not accept them back because they were mounted.
Possible $650.00 down the drain.
Not happy.
Wow! This must be a shock, especially given the original Wilson Instagram statement (cited in Post #1):
"You spoke, and we listened. Designed with parallel side datum flats for ease of maintenance. No unique jig required. 'Phoenix' by John Wilson Blades."
Yes, please ask your tech for the specific problems he encountered.
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If the C.F. blade holders are no more than 0.5" thick and flat, I could sharpen them on my Wissota.
I can clamp up something that thick (I just measured) and can adjust the height of the blade holder to center them on the wheel.
If they are over 1/2" thick, and can't work with my stock blade holder, I could replace the threaded clamping studs with something longer.
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If the C.F. blade holders are no more than 0.5" thick and flat, I could sharpen them on my Wissota.
I can clamp up something that thick (I just measured) and can adjust the height of the blade holder to center them on the wheel.
If they are over 1/2" thick, and can't work with my stock blade holder, I could replace the threaded clamping studs with something longer.
Just curious. How thick a chassis will the holder handle, even with longer clamping studs? At some point, the height adjustment will be the limiting factor.
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Concerning height adjustment, here's my Wissota Elite 3-D Universal Figure Skate Holder adjusted for traditional blades...
(http://www.afterness.com/skating/images/wissota/wissota_skate_holder_capacity-5-800px.jpg)
Here's the holder when it is adjusted to minimum height where the preload springs coil-bind...
(http://www.afterness.com/skating/images/wissota/wissota_skate_holder_capacity-4-800px.jpg)
You can see that I have approximately 0.4" downward travel compared to the position for a standard blade. Keep in mind that holder travel only needs to be half the blade stanchion thickness, so it could handle 1/2" thick stanchions with ease.
Assuming that a standard blade is about 0.15" thick at the stanchions, then the additional adjustment travel could accommodate stanchions = 2*(.15/2 + 0.4) = 0.95" thick.
Here's a shot of the blade clamp on a 0.478" thick piece of scrap plywood.
(http://www.afterness.com/skating/images/wissota/wissota_skate_holder_capacity-8-800px.jpg)
In that shot, you can see that the clamping studs are 1/4-20 threads held in place with a jam nut on the bottom. It would be extremely simple to replace the existing studs with something longer to handle stanchions over 1/2" thick, which is my current limit. The existing clamping thumb nuts have blind holes, so I'd probably have to replace them with thumb nuts having through-holes for traditional blades if I did extend the studs. I could alternatively incorporate a short metal tube spacer between thumb nut and the top blade clamp for doing traditional blades if I had to extend the studs.
The other issue is whether the stanchion cutout geometry will fit over the studs. From photos of the new blades, they appear to mimic traditional blades in the position of the stanchion openings.
(http://www.afterness.com/skating/images/wissota/blade_phoenix.jpg)
Compare those stanchion openings to a standard blade held in the clamp.
(http://www.afterness.com/skating/images/wissota/wissota_skate_holder_capacity-16-800px.jpg)
That doesn't appear to present a problem.
The Wissota skate holder has broad clamping surfaces that shouldn't damage the carbon fiber stanchions...
(http://www.afterness.com/skating/images/wissota/wissota_skate_holder_capacity-11-800px.jpg)
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From Wissota about Revolution blades, which are a different blade than that being discussed...
NOTE: The MK/Wilson “Revolution” style blades with the carbon fiber blade holders will fit perfectly in our standard 3-D Three Dial Skate Holder. They will not fit into the Elite Figure Skate Holder.
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OldGuyDown - if you are reading this, can you answer two questions?
1) How thick are the carbon fiber stanchions?
2) Do the blade rivets stick up above the stanchion surface?
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Here's my Wissota Elite 3-D Universal Figure Skate Holder set up for traditional blades...
Thanks for the thorough analysis, Bill. Looks like the Wissota holder has excellent dynamic range.
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I can also adjust the motor/grinding wheel height to raise it above the platen an additional 1/4" if needed. With the caveat that I don't have a sample here to test, I don't see any obvious impediment to sharpening Phoenix blades with this outfit.
Because OldGuyDown isn't a frequent visitor AFAIK, I also emailed Wilson about stanchion thickness and rivet flushness. I'll report back when I hear from them.
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It is confirmed - the Wissota skate holder can handle Phoenix blades.
Here's the extensive reply that I received this morning...
Good morning, William!
My name is Katie McCarter and I am the U.S. Representative for MK / John Wilson Blades.
The Phoenix parallel datum points are closer to the rivets (which are flush to the blade), but the Wissota 3D figure holder is designed for this style of blade. When preparing to sharpen, you will want to tap the blade in the toe and the heel and adjust the dials appropriately to get even edges and then proceed to sharpen the entire blade.
I have attached some photos below from the Wissota engineering team on how to properly clamp the blade. If you have any additional questions, please let me know!
Kind regards,
Katie
(https://www.afterness.com/skating/images/wissota/phoenix_clamped_1.jpg)
(https://www.afterness.com/skating/images/wissota/phoenix_clamped_2.jpg)
(https://www.afterness.com/skating/images/wissota/phoenix_clamped_3.jpg)
Katie McCarter| Director, Figure Skating Sales & Marketing
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Bill, I'm really surprised that:
(1) Wilson responded so quickly;
(2) Their reply was so thorough; and
(3) They actually collaborated with Wissota.
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Maybe it's a slow season? :(
Regardless, I'm pleased with their service.
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(https://www.afterness.com/skating/images/wissota/phoenix_clamped_1.jpg)
Clamping the blade and aligning it for a straight grind is not the problem. (left & right wheels in the picture)
Problem comes from the "tilt" of the blade (wheel to the rear in photo)
How to determine that the grind is 90 degrees to the stanchions that have no flat areas.
After talking to 3 Wilson dealers, they told me that they would not recommend blade until issue is resolved.
One possible solution is removing blades and using heel portion of mount to determine 90 degrees to table.
We still don't know if the heel flat is parallel to blade surface because the blades themselves are "handed" (left & right)
This would require removing blades from boots for sharpening but it could be a solution.
The person who sold me the blades told my skate guy to "eyeball it & make sparks"
Presumably so they couldn't be returned.
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You don't have to worry about leveling the blade to the table (within reason). You eyeball it, and then adjust the height of the skate holder to give even edges like you always do. I cobbled this quick illustration to show why...
(https://www.afterness.com/skating/images/wissota/blade_tilt_wheel.jpg)
Both situations above will produce even edges. The blade doesn't have to be perfectly level to get them. However it must be at the correct height for whatever geometry is used.
Even though you must re-adjust height with a thick stanchion like the Phoenix to get even edges, I almost always have to adjust height between various blades when I sharpen anyway. They are all different and I fine tune height for every pair.
A quick, non-destructive way to set-up for level edges is to take a Sharpie and blacken the blade hollow at the front and at the back. With the blade held very lightly against the grinding wheel, I give the wheel a little turn with my finger - just enough to remove a bit of the Sharpie ink, but no metal. If after the initial height adjustment the removed ink is close to center (both front and rear), you will be close to even edges when you grind. If not, tweak holder height to remove ink from the center of the hollow from both the front and the rear of the blade.
It gets me in the ballpark before I take my first sharpening pass. That's how I'd approach sharpening those blades.
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Thank you Bill. :D
I'll show my skate tech this illustration and see if it helps.
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(https://www.afterness.com/skating/images/wissota/phoenix_clamped_1.jpg)
Clamping the blade and aligning it for a straight grind is not the problem. (left & right wheels in the picture)
Problem comes from the "tilt" of the blade (wheel to the rear in photo)
How to determine that the grind is 90 degrees to the stanchions that have no flat areas.
After talking to 3 Wilson dealers, they told me that they would not recommend blade until issue is resolved.
One possible solution is removing blades and using heel portion of mount to determine 90 degrees to table.
We still don't know if the heel flat is parallel to blade surface because the blades themselves are "handed" (left & right)
This would require removing blades from boots for sharpening but it could be a solution.
The person who sold me the blades told my skate guy to "eyeball it & make sparks"
Presumably so they couldn't be returned.
I'm missing something here. According to the communication that Bill got from Wilson, the skate holder clamps onto parallel 'datum points'. I'm assuming these are flats parallel to the sides of the runner. If this is indeed the case, and if the tilt angles of the skate holder are properly aligned to begin with, then the only adjustment needed should be the height adjustment. That is, the tilt angles could be set by clamping a traditional blade with parallel sides, or a reference steel plate with parallel sides.
Or is there some more complex geometric relationship between the datum points on the chassis and the runner?
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I'm a bit confused.
Is the tech concerned that the heel and toe plates (that rest on the bottom of the boot) are not at right angles with the blade?
The two plates, my old MK Dance blades, weren't even coplaner, and may not even be flat - they get warped to the shape of the bottom of the boot. Unless their blade design has changed. So it makes no sense to use the heel and toe plates to set the angle across the edge, even if you ignore what Bill pointed out.
Do I completely misunderstand what is meant?
BTW, what do they mean by "datum points" in this context? Are they saying that for some reason it matters exactly where along the length of the blade the clamps are placed? Or are there marks on the blades, to make it easier to keep the rocker profile parallel to the original profile - i.e., to set the overall forward/backwards tilt of the blades?
Also, Bill, I think you are right that there could be a slight angle without problem. But of course, the wheel abrades against the steel at different rates on different poirts across of the wheel's thickness, because that speed is proportional to the diameter of the wheel at that point. Hence the two edges would end up slightly different shapes, at a microscopic level. I'm not sure if that would matter much, especially after deburring if the angle got too large.
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I found a guy about 1 1/2 hours away that said he has done a bunch and has no problems.
He says two of his Phoenix customers are skating at a very high level & both are very sensitive to edge quality.
My feeling from talking with him is that he knows what he's doing.
I have an appointment tomorrow & will let you know.
@Query
There are no datum points on anything carbon.
The only thing you have to work with is the 5mm of stainless sticking out the bottom.
The rivets are not reliable because they are not totally flat or square.
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There are no datum points on anything carbon.
The only thing you have to work with is the 5mm of stainless sticking out the bottom.
The rivets are not reliable because they are not totally flat or square.
Are you saying that the communication from the Wilson rep is not correct? That is, there are no clamping surfaces on the carbon-fiber chassis that are flat and parallel to the stainless-steel runner?
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I'm just glad that he found someone who knows how to set the holder for his blades. That's all that really matters.
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I'm just glad that he found someone who knows how to set the holder for his blades. That's all that really matters.
As far as OldGuyDown is concerned, yes that's all that really matters. For other skaters contemplating buying the Phoenix, and for Wilson trying to roll out this new line, however, there is still a major issue if it's not readily apparent to any reasonably competent tech how to sharpen these blades properly. According to OldGuyDown, three Wilson dealers he talked to are recommending that skaters not buy these blades for now. Not good for the Wilson marketing guys. Also particularly egregious given Wilson's initial announcement that design criteria included "ease of maintenance" (which I presumed to mean ease of sharpening) and "no unique jig required". I was hoping that Wilson had learned from the mistakes that Ultima Matrix and Paramount made: when you design a new blade, you need to take into consideration ease of sharpening and ease of checking the edges (preferably with existing equipment; not custom gear for each line).
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when you design a new blade, you need to take into consideration ease of sharpening and ease of checking the edges (preferably with existing equipment; not custom gear for each line).
But these blades were advertised as being lighter than other similar blades, but were presumably still sufficiently strong and rigid. As best I understand it, one of the ways to do that is by removing the parts of the structure that take the least stress. Honeycombing the interior structure would be a lot harder to do, but a complicated side-honing pattern (i.e., uneven thicknesses) on the chassis (or whatever you want to call the structure that holds the "runner" that touches the ice), helps do that. Of course, most high end blades already have cut-out areas, which help with that too.
(I hope their spatial stress analysis for material removal takes into account various bad landings, and hitting the wall or another skater's blade.)
At one point Jackson Ultima Matrix included an "Ultralite" [sp?] model, that had more cut-out area than usual in the chassis, to save weight. For whatever reasons, they were dropped. But MK is now offering Professional Lite (https://www.mkblades.com/products/professional-lite):
(https://www.mkblades.com/images/products/product_images/5ed1106ae365b.png)
along the same lines. And they have parallel sides, and no extra chassis to get in the way of sharpening! But they only have one Lite model, and it's only suggested for jumps up to double Lutz, perhaps because the toe picks aren't as aggressive as some, or perhaps the extra cut-out area makes them less strong.
I wonder how they compare in weight to Phoenix and Revolution blades.
Likewise for the Wilson Coronation Ace Lite (https://www.johnwilsonskates.com/products/coronation-ace-lite):
(https://www.johnwilsonskates.com/images/products/product_images/5ed0d3a1ea5ab.png)
though it doesn't say whether they have parallel sides.
BTW Uneven thicknesses on the chassis wouldn't affect sharpening with the two best hand skate blade sharpening tools I know, because they both slide along the sides of the runner, using it for centering and alignment, and don't touch the "chassis". But I doubt the o.p. is willing to risk making mistakes learning to sharpen his own, on blades this expensive. :)
Are you saying that the communication from the Wilson rep is not correct? That is, there are no clamping surfaces on the carbon-fiber chassis that are flat and parallel to the stainless-steel runner?
Is that what they mean by datum points? It could be they mold the carbon fiber composite with lines that show where to place and align the blade holder. I can't see that in the pictures, but the pictures I've looked at aren't very detailed.
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Are you saying that the communication from the Wilson rep is not correct? That is, there are no clamping surfaces on the carbon-fiber chassis that are flat and parallel to the stainless-steel runner?
Correct, you have to get everything you need off the small amount of blade sticking out of the carbon.
Well I finally got my blades sharpened & was impressed with MY NEW skate tech.
He had measuring tools there that I've never seen before & a sharpening machine that was new to me.
The blades were sharpened on something that was not a Wassota holder.
He did say it would take longer because the factory grind was off quite a bit.
After sharpening, he showed me how he verifies that the blade has been properly ground.
I feel quite confident now that the edge can be made square on these Phoenix blades if you possess the skill to do it properly.
I got 2 hrs on the blades yesterday and I like them.
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That's great to hear!
Is this the edge checker that he was using?
(https://www.afterness.com/skating/images/wissota/kristens_skates_wissota-40-800px.jpg)
I'm curious because the blade is stainless vs. this magnetic gauge, and how securely it might attach to the small bit of blade sticking out.
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Is this the edge checker that he was using?
No.
He used 3 different types.
One was a small Starrett adjustable square.
The second was a side clamping tool with a DTI (Phoenix blades are not side ground so this works)
The 3rd he called "proprietary" and looked as if it was home made.
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No.
He used 3 different types.
One was a small Starrett adjustable square.
The second was a side clamping tool with a DTI (Phoenix blades are not side ground so this works)
The 3rd he called "proprietary" and looked as if it was home made.
What do you mean by "DTI"?
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I'm curious because the blade is stainless vs. this magnetic gauge, and how securely it might attach to the small bit of blade sticking out.
According to Wilson, the blade is fabricated from 420 stainless. That's a magnetic grade of stainless. Some blade checkers use small neodymium-alloy "supermagnets" .
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What do you mean by "DTI"?
tstop - I'm assuming that it's a hollow checking indicator like this one...
http://www.pro-filer.com/hdi/ (http://www.pro-filer.com/hdi/)
It can check for uneven edges. Because it requires less blade engagement than my magnetic checker, it would be an easier solution for those blades.
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OldGuyDown, congratulations on finding someone who can sharpen your blades!
I hope you love them now. :BS: :love:
P.S. Wow, Bill, that Hollow Depth Indicator you linked to is $250! Not the sort of thing an average casual skater buys. Too pricey for me.
And it says it measures hollow depth, not ROH (Radius Of Hollow), so I guess it would be hard to figure out the if your edges are somewhat worn down. If I wanted that, I might be tempted to use my $20 callipers.
But the H.D.I. looks like a cool tool for the professional skate tech.
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tstop - I'm assuming that it's a hollow checking indicator like this one...
http://www.pro-filer.com/hdi/ (http://www.pro-filer.com/hdi/)
Yes, That's the one. DTI = Dial Test Indicator (every machine shop has about a dozen of them)
I hope you love them now.
I do like them but my coach is not happy.
She says there is no way I'll pass silver moves if I can't quiet them down.
I'm hoping it's just because they are super sharp???
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...I can't quiet them down.
Ohhh, that's interesting. :(
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tstop - I'm assuming that it's a hollow checking indicator like this one...
http://www.pro-filer.com/hdi/ (http://www.pro-filer.com/hdi/)
It can check for uneven edges. Because it requires less blade engagement than my magnetic checker, it would be an easier solution for those blades.
I have the Edge Specialties H.D.I. (Hollow Depth Indicator). It's a solidly engineered, precision-machined instrument. But performance suffers for blades with the chassis plus runner construction if the depth of the runner is too small.
The attached picture (CLICK TO ENLARGE) shows a side view of a partially disassembled unit. The dial indicator is attached to a slide, which slides within a clamp that clamps onto the blade. With traditional blades, two guide pins (guide pin 1 and guide pin 2) rest on the edges of the blade to create a stable measurement platform. The clamp holds the unit in place, but exerts light pressure. The distance T1 between the bottom of the guide pins and the bottom edge of the clamp is 8 mm. If the depth of the runner is less than 8 mm, the bottom edge of the clamp will hit into the chassis, and the guide pins will not seat onto the edges. The unit is then held by clamp pressure only, and you have to exercise great care during the measurement; i.e., the unit can move, throwing off the measurement.
Another problem arises when the depth of the runner is smaller still. The position of the dial indicator can be adjusted vertically (as viewed in the picture). As shown, the dial indicator is positioned all the way to the bottom, flush against the slide. The distance T2 between the dial indicator tip (fully extended) and the bottom edge of the clamp is 6 mm. If the depth of the runner is 6 mm or less, the tip will not be depressed, and no measurement can be made.
On my Paramount blades, a new runner has a depth of 7 mm; supplied tip works OK for now (until sharpening removes 1 mm). I tried the H.I.D. on a new Ultima Matrix at a pro shop; didn't work with the supplied tip. OldGuyDown reported that the Phoenix runner has a depth of 5 mm; the supplied tip won't work with that either. The tip is replaceable, however; you can buy longer tips.
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P.S. Wow, Bill, that Hollow Depth Indicator you linked to is $250! Not the sort of thing an average casual skater buys. Too pricey for me.
And it says it measures hollow depth, not ROH (Radius Of Hollow), so I guess it would be hard to figure out the if your edges are somewhat worn down. If I wanted that, I might be tempted to use my $20 callipers.
But the H.D.I. looks like a cool tool for the professional skate tech.
If you measure the depth of hollow (DOH) with the H.D.I. and the blade thickness separately with a micrometer or caliper, you can calculate the equivalent radius of hollow (ROH).
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No.
He used 3 different types.
One was a small Starrett adjustable square.
The second was a side clamping tool with a DTI (Phoenix blades are not side ground so this works)
The 3rd he called "proprietary" and looked as if it was home made.
A small square and the H.D.I. don't work all that well with the chassis plus runner blade architecture in which the runner is less than 10 mm or so deep. If your tech is into measuring instruments, a precision machinist would use a surface gauge (though pricey for the required accuracy). The flatbed of the sharpening machine is used as a reference surface. The blade is clamped in the skate holder, and the skate holder is positioned on the flatbed; the skate holder can be clamped down with magnetic hold-downs if needed. A surface gauge includes a precision ground base and an adjustable arm that holds a dial indicator at a desired height and orientation and that moves the dial indicator in a desired direction.
To check that the blade is level, the dial indicator is oriented orthogonal to the flatbed. The tip is pressed against the flat of the test surface (e.g., side of the runner). The tip is moved over different points of the test surface by moving the entire surface gauge. If the test surface is parallel to the flatbed, the dial indicator will indicate no variation (to within a desired tolerance).
To check that the edges are even, the dial indicator is oriented parallel to the flatbed. The tip is pressed against one edge, and the base of the surface gauge is clamped down onto the flatbed. The dial indicator is then moved orthogonal to the flatbed to the opposite edge. If the edges are level, the dial indicator will indicate no variation (to within a desired tolerance).
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BTW Uneven thicknesses on the chassis wouldn't affect sharpening with the two best hand skate blade sharpening tools I know, because they both slide along the sides of the runner, using it for centering and alignment, and don't touch the "chassis". But I doubt the o.p. is willing to risk making mistakes learning to sharpen his own, on blades this expensive. :)
OldGuyDown said the Phoenix runner is only 5 mm deep. The Pro-Filer would need to be modified: Otherwise the guide block/stone holder (which is also called a "chassis") of the Pro-Filer will hit into the chassis of the blade and the stone will not press against the hollow of the blade. Even with modification, not sure how well it will work if the guiding surface is only 5 mm deep (and that's for a new blade).
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I do like them but my coach is not happy.
She says there is no way I'll pass silver moves if I can't quiet them down.
I'm hoping it's just because they are super sharp???
One possibility (don't know for sure) is that the noise is due to the chassis plus runner construction. The Ultima Matrix and Paramount blades also have a chassis plus runner, though they use an aluminum alloy for the chassis instead of carbon-fiber composite. They are also noisy. Some coaches and techs caution skaters that some judges mistake the noise for toepick scraping and knock off points (even though discerning judges should know better).
I've seen posts that attribute the noise to the stainless steel runners. But that is not true. I've skated on the Eclipse Aurora, which is nominally equivalent (though not identical) to the Coronation Ace. It is fabricated from stainless steel, but constructed in the traditional manner (all parts stainless steel, with stanchions brazed to heel and sole plates). It is quiet.
All Paramount blades have the chassis plus runner construction. The runners are available in plain carbon steel and stainless steel. A coach I know actually bought one with plain carbon steel because they are significantly cheaper. They are also noisy.
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I'm still planning on buying the Gold Seal Rev. My question was more rhetorical: how much is the weight difference really going to be between the GS Rev. and the Phoenix? 0.02 oz? I was just making the point that it would have sucked to buy GS Rev. and suddenly this FAR superior blade was released a month later, but this turned out to not be the case.
Personally I would not never-ever buy Gold Seal Revolution blades. They are pretty, that I agree but they are nearly impossible to be sharpened accurately. In traditional Gold Seals you have stanchion what can be used as a datum when evaluating if edges are even (in square). Gold Seal Revolutions are like you would try to measure ball with a square. For sure the edges can be made sharp, but getting even edges is made nearly impossible. This is much easier in Phoenix blades. Another feature what I really do like in Phoenix blades is missing chrome removal grinding.
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A small square and the H.D.I. don't work all that well with the chassis plus runner blade architecture in which the runner is less than 10 mm or so. If your tech is into measuring instruments, a precision machinist would use a surface gauge (though pricey for the required accuracy). The flatbed of the sharpening machine is used as a reference surface. The blade is clamped in the skate holder, and the skate holder is positioned on the flatbed; the skate holder can be clamped down with magnetic hold-downs if needed. A surface gauge includes a precision ground base and an adjustable arm that holds a dial indicator at a desired height and orientation and that moves the dial indicator in a desired direction.
To check that the blade is level, the dial indicator is oriented orthogonal to the flatbed. The tip is pressed against the flat of the test surface (e.g., side of the runner). The tip is moved over different points of the test surface by moving the entire surface gauge. If the test surface is parallel to the flatbed, the dial indicator will indicate no variation (to within a desired tolerance).
To check that the edges are even, the dial indicator is oriented parallel to the flatbed. The tip is pressed against one edge, and the base of the surface gauge is clamped down onto the flatbed. The dial indicator is then moved orthogonal to the flatbed to the opposite edge. If the edges are level, the dial indicator will indicate no variation (to within a desired tolerance).
In my opinion adjustable square is more accurate than the method you described. Even this picture is taken from the Paramount and Matrix blades, same principles should work also on Phoenix blades.
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In my opinion adjustable square is more accurate than the method you described. Even this picture is taken from the Paramount and Matrix blades, same principles should work also on Phoenix blades.
The square is certainly cheaper and quicker, but I wouldn't say it's more accurate. The square is dependent on operator skill, steady hand, and good eyesight. It's tricky to use with many blade geometries. It also provides at best a qualitative assessment. The surface gauge is far less dependent on operator characteristics; and, more importantly, provides a quantitative measurement (e.g., the dial indicator will directly measure whether the edges are level to within 0.001, 0.002, 0.003, .... inches).
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I am not sure which blade geometries you are referring. If you are referring to parabolic, side honed or tapered blades, can you describe how your dial gauge method works for those blades? …or in Gold Seal Revolution which only flat area is where the toe picks are. In Paramount blades you have only narrow areas on stanchions which can be used for transversal gauging. Runner needs to be used for longitudinal gauging.
Missing flat surface is problem for both methods. With gauging method what you described, you need to obviously ensure that blade is parallel in transversal and longitudinal direction. If the blade is not 100% straight in all directions, like they hardly ever are, you may have problems to decide when blade is parallel. People often believe that blades chromed side surfaces are parallel to each other’s and super flat, but they are not.
It’s true that dial gauge gives you numerical results, but what would be the tolerable value when you already know that blade is not 100% straight and you have difficulties to choose when it is parallel to your table?
Paramount blade aluminum frames are machined and expectation is that they super straight, but runner can be still being bent as it is glued in to groove which is wider than the runner.
Note also that with dial gauge you are measuring height difference in ~4mm distance when most of the cases square can utilize much longer distance. Longer the measuring distance is, better the accuracy you can reach with square.
H.D.I gauge can grab also from the Paramount blades, but you need to extend the dial gauge shaft. For those whom think square measurement is difficult and inaccurate, I need to say that using H.D.I gauge is 10 times more difficult. H.D.I gauge what you can see in the pictures is special version, which was told to work also on side honed blades. Well, it didn’t. Or of course it depends on the accuracy requirements of the user. My H.D.I gauge is just collecting dust.
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Oh my - so more than one of you have bought the $250 H.D.I. tool, for your own personal use? Wow! Especially if it only works optimally on some blade types for a very short while, as you have indicated.
As far as using the square is concerned with vertically side honed (e.g., dovetail cut) blades, I assume that there would be a slight angle between the side of the blades and the side of the square that fits against them. E.g., for dovetail cut, there would be a small airgap as you get further from the edge, but not next to the edge itself. If you apply the square to both sides, the size of the air gap should be the same.
If your eyesight isn't good enough use a good magnifier, with little distortion - perhaps a good quality Hastings triplet - though you would have to brace the magnifier against the square and blade so the distance would be the same. If you really want to go whole hog, you could get those cool looking flip-down surgical or dental magnifiers (I've not tried them) - though the best of those cost even more than the H.D.I. tool.
How good a job does the H.D.I. tool do of measuring rocker, and how does that work?
A shame that, based on what you have said, it might not work with Phoenix blades.
I'm sorry that I just assumed that Pro-Filer could do the job. I should take a measurement on the old Berghman sharpeners, to see if 5 mm is too small. But I don't love the stones that came with the Berghmans, and they only supported 1/2" ROH. Maybe Edge Specialties could make a Pro-Filer designed just for them? At one point, they offered to make custom gap sizes for different width blades.
BTW some of the best skate techs are very proud that they figured out how to sharpen Gold Seal blades, and other vertically side honed blades, with even edges, and also managed to avoid uneven blade width as you move along the length. (It would be very easy to accidentally give them a wavy width pattern, by not taking the same depth of metal off all parts of the blade.) But those skate techs are few and far between. I have wondered whether the putative benefit of vertical side honing is real, or whether it is just an excuse to charge more for the blades. That said, some high end kitchen knives have vertical side honing too - thats what they call "hollow ground", but the hollow is in the sides, not the bottom.
Anyway, I guess we have come more or less to a consensus that the claimed ease of edge maintenance on Phoenix blades may not be altogether real, unless perhaps you have the skills and the proper equipment. I personally wouldn't want them, for that reason. I LIKE being able to sharpen my own blades - and have chosen them accordingly.
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How good a job does the H.D.I. tool do of measuring rocker, and how does that work?
The H.D.I. doesn't measure rocker (by which I assume you mean the blade curvature along the longitudinal axis from toe to heel) at all.
ETA: You're probably thinking of this rocker gauge: http://www.iceskateology.com/Skateology/Rocker_Radius_Gauge.html
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“Off-topic again: How do you know Ultima Apex Elite or the MK Dance use dovetail (i.e., wider at the bottom) shapes? I used and sharpened my MK Dance blades - and didn't notice the problems that might have caused. I can't find anything else online that says they use dovetail shapes.“
I have sharpened multiple pairs of Apex Elite blades, and they appear pretty clearly dovetailed to me. The parallel sides allow a clear datum for a square, and the dovetail has no chrome relief to create an inconsistent angle. A good design, really. If there are truly advantages to the flared edge, they are available without the loss of sharpening consistency. I’ll add that I’m not disputing that there may be advantages to the flared edge with consistent, level sharpenings, I just haven't seen any real evidence that it makes a significant difference...but I’m in a small, isolated community in the middle of nowhere.
My mistake on the MK Dance—they are narrower at the bottom but not dovetails. Not really the same thing at all. They appear to want to produce a narrower blade for quickness from edge to edge, but they provide the necessary strength, torsion resistance, and stability by only narrowing the width on the bottom 5 to 6 mm. Also tapered from front to back IIRC. I have a pair sitting in my shop and will do a detailed inspection tomorrow.
I should probably ban myself from posting after a 2-hr freestyle with a lesson. At least I have the sense not to go near my sharpening equipment at that point.
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Mod note: split topic into detailed technical sharpening and original product discussions. Carry on.
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Coming back to square check, which I assume to work also Phoenix blades. Checking / judging with the square should not be so difficult.
See videos:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DbrR3hBtm70
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9cakeYd_-E
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I’ve never seen a machinist square with a point like that, what’s the purpose?
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In the first of those videos, the skate tech finishes the edge using a cylindrical stone, like that used in the Pro-filer - but without a handle to keep the stone centered.
I've tried that. I am unable to keep the stone centered and aligned well enough to create sharp, let alone even, edges that way. But some people have better fine motor control than me. I have seen it done - and other people who can sculpt a variable ROH hollow pattern (I'm not sure what the benefit is) using a stone with a finer radius stone than the hollows they are creating.
Does anyone know what are the advantages/disadvantages of the Incredible Edger vs the Wissota? The I.E. is a lot more expensive than either the Wissota or the low end Blademasters, so perhaps it does something better.
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One minor problem with checking edge evenness at different points along the blade by using a square: It assumes there is no twist-warp in the blade. I THINK it is better to use visual line-up of two straight edges on different parts along the blade, and just use the square at one point - though maybe it makes sense to verify that the air gap looks the same on the opposite edge in that place too.
But lining up to straight edges isn't quite right either. It can verify that the edge heights are the same, but the edge shapes would still be slightly different, if there is twist warp. But you can't compensate for everything in a twist-warped blade, unless you actually remove the twist warp.
Maybe JW/HD Sports could sell a kit for hand sharpening Phoenix blades to end-customers whose pro shops can't handle them - except pro-shops wouldn't like that.
Would it really have been so hard to just make sure that all JW/MK blades can easily be sharpened with all the same common types of equipment? I wonder if they shave more than a few grams off the weight by making it just enough harder that some pro shops have trouble. In the long run, that type of trouble might hurt their reputation, especially since they market Phoenix blades to high end customers.
And maybe they should ship each pair of blades with detailed, well illustrated sharpening instructions, in the shipping container to pro shops. The pro shop could keep those instructions, and use them to help train their skate techs. Despite the time pressure, I think a lot of skate techs would do a better job if they just knew how. Anything HD Sports could do to help would be a good thing. Or is that unrealistic?
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One minor problem with checking edge evenness at different points along the blade by using a square: It assumes there is no twist-warp in the blade. I THINK it is better to use visual line-up of two straight edges on different parts along the blade, and just use the square at one point - though maybe it makes sense to verify that the air gap looks the same on the opposite edge in that place too.
But lining up to straight edges isn't quite right either. It can verify that the edge heights are the same, but the edge shapes would still be slightly different, if there is twist warp. But you can't compensate for everything in a twist-warped blade, unless you actually remove the twist warp.
Good point about twist. I try to be really vigilant about twist warp and spend a lot of time checking when mounting new blades (not something I understood at first, but fortunately I became more aware over time). When blades come to me with twist-warp or just a curved mounting, I let the skater/parents know and recommend we fix it so the skater’s skills will transfer more easily to the next set of blades.
I’ve read comments that a little twist or a slight curvature don’t matter, but they also aren’t doing the skater any favors. It’s a bigger problem at low speeds, so probably more of a problem for beginners and some adults. Hard on coaches, too, because they often need to do long, slow demonstrations to get the idea of a new skill across. Skating is hard enough even with perfect equipment.
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And maybe they should ship each pair of blades with detailed, well illustrated sharpening instructions, in the shipping container to pro shops. The pro shop could keep those instructions, and use them to help train their skate techs. Despite the time pressure, I think a lot of skate techs would do a better job if they just knew how. Anything HD Sports could do to help would be a good thing. Or is that unrealistic?
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I would love for this to happen. Not sure why it isn’t more of a priority for HD or any of the other manufacturers. If we can keep the blades in good shape, skaters will like them better, so wouldn’t it be good for business?
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I’ve never seen a machinist square with a point like that, what’s the purpose?
I am not sure which tool you are using to check edges evenness, but most of the tools measures if edges are 90 degrees angle to the chromed side planes. There are several BAT gauges on the markets which uses either magnets or magnet + screw. One part of the tool lays against the chromed plane and another on top on grinned edges, means they are in 90 degrees angle to each others, if edges are even.
It is true that with the square you cannot detect if blade is twisted. It can detect only if blade is not straight...in certain level. Blade straightness I will check every time when I have new pair of skates on my hands. Too many skate techs just mounts the blades on the boots without confirming how they change the geometry of the blades. Ensuring the blade straightness after the blade mounting should not be too much for asked. Well, I will try to keep on the topic. I agree that using two straight edges in different ends of the blade possibly identifies the wrapping issue. With this method you need to visually line-up if straight edges are parallel to each others. You can also visual line-up if they are in 90 degrees angle compared to chromed surfaces. Longer the straight edges are, basically more accurate they are (if the datum surface is also long enough). Its a matter of opinion which one (square or visual line-up) measures angle more accurate. With the square the measuring length is much shorter, which obviously reduces accuracy even tool manufacturing accuracy would be superb. Its also good to keep in mind that different sides or blades are not necessary parallel and quite many times chromed blades has lots of geometrical deviations already at the factory condition.
As Query mentioned, we cannot compensate everything, even we would like to do so. We cannot example control blades manufacturing process. For this reason I have not used chromed blades for my daughter. It has been my way to ensure that at least some errors are excluded already at the blade manufacturing process.
Still few words about the BAT gauges. As Bill was witnessing us, BAT gauges manufacturing is not necessarily any high-accuracy production. Tool it selves can have remarkable deviation. Even the tool it selves would be OK, especially cheaper blades can have barrel shaped. Magnet which attaches to the chromed surface is pretty short and it can be actually slightly tilted. This is not so easy identify. I did try to explain this issue in my sketch.
There are lots of sharpeners which does not use any gauges and they sharpen hockey skates, figure skates with same setups. I have even seen that local sport goods shop was sharpening figure skates handheld without using skate holder.
Edited:
Ones again I didn't read the question properly and replied totally wrong thing. Idea of the beveled end is that you can enter in to the corners. See updated attachment.
If you are wondering idea of the knife edge design, its made to increase accuracy. Knife edge does not create shadows like a flat design.
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I’ve never seen a machinist square with a point like that, what’s the purpose?
The blade in the videos has one end beveled. Common bevels are 45 deg and 30 deg. Just eyeballing the video, it appears to be 45 deg on one end (pointed end) and 90 deg on the other end. Some blades are beveled at both ends (45 deg on one end and 30 deg on the other end). These are common angles used in machine design, and these bevels can be used to check them.
There are all sorts of oddball blades for squares. See, e.g., https://www.starrett.com/metrology/product-detail/453E
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There are all sorts of oddball blades for squares.
Here's an oddball square for you. :) It's one that I made in the early 1970s.
I still use it today for small parts. To make it again, I'd need a mill, a lathe, and a surface grinder, plus tooling for those machines.
(https://www.afterness.com/woodworking/images/square_shop_made-4-800px.jpg)
Of course its lack of measuring gradations means that it can be used only as a try square, but it's good at that.
For use with sharp blades, I'd like to see a square a bit smaller than this one, and with an aluminum body instead of steel. Soft aluminum wouldn't pose nearly the threat to freshly-sharpened edges.
Hmmm...
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For use with sharp blades, I'd like to see a square a bit smaller than this one, and with an aluminum body instead of steel. Soft aluminum wouldn't pose nearly the threat to freshly-sharpened edges.
Hmmm...
I have used just and only precision square and never noted any issues by damaging freshly-sharpened edges. Higher risk I have seen in the deburring. It has happened several times that I have failed in the deburring and therefore have been forced to make few extra passes. H.D.I gauge...or its dial gauge tip harms more easily edges.
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The blade in the videos has one end beveled. Common bevels are 45 deg and 30 deg. Just eyeballing the video, it appears to be 45 deg on one end (pointed end) and 90 deg on the other end. Some blades are beveled at both ends (45 deg on one end and 30 deg on the other end). These are common angles used in machine design, and these bevels can be used to check them.
There are all sorts of oddball blades for squares. See, e.g., https://www.starrett.com/metrology/product-detail/453E
Thanks everyone, for the clarifications, pretty obvious about the bevel being for corners.
Thanks for the drawing, Kaitsu, very nice.
You can tell I’m an engineer rather than a machinist...with most of my work being on things that are on a much larger scale, like pipelines, roads, and buildings. Not a lot of call for this scale of precision, particularly in the hazardous materials niche where I spend most of my time these days. All of my fine precision at work these days is focused on calibration of equipment for measurements of contaminants at low levels, or on the wording of specifications. Not nearly as fun as fine-tuning equipment.
I have the version of that Starrett square in the photo in tstop4me’s link, but none of the other blades for it, plus the original smaller precision square that came with the old IE machine. I have never used a BAT gauge or any magnetic tools on skates, they always seemed too clunky to really be accurate. I know some people just eyeball the blade and say it’s square, but I don’t think my eye is trained to that accuracy. As far as edge damage goes, I check for level before I hone and polish the edges, so any minute damage should be blended into smoothness once I’m done...or at least it seems that way.
The BAT guage could be useful for checking for twist, maybe? I think I prefer flat bars so I don’t have to worry if the magnets are losing precision. On blades that I didn’t mount, I often notice twist and bend when I clamp the blades for final polishing. I use the holder from the original IE since it is designed for clamping onto skates, held on its side so the boot is underneath and I can work on the radius. As the sides clamp shut, you can see the blade being forced into straightness. It is easier to see curvature than twist, because you see the gap at the center and ends on each side, but twist is also revealed when the final clamping makes the boot move, particularly when you see the heel move but not the front of the boot.
It is great to have the opportunity to learn from the rest of you on this, I have been in a vacuum up here trying to figure this out on my own.
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Sounds like you're a Civil Engineer. I was a Mechanical Engineer.
Sometime I'll tell you about the annual softball game between the C.E. and M.E. students at my alma mater in the 70s. Not to give the story completely away, but white paint and a grapefruit were involved.
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Sounds like you're a Civil Engineer. I was a Mechanical Engineer.
Sometime I'll tell you about the annual softball game between the C.E. and M.E. students at my alma mater in the 70s. Not to give the story completely away, but white paint and a grapefruit were involved.
Hahaha! Sounds very entertaining. Yes, I’m a Civil Engineer.
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I have used just and only precision square and never noted any issues by damaging freshly-sharpened edges. Higher risk I have seen in the deburring. It has happened several times that I have failed in the deburring and therefore have been forced to make few extra passes. H.D.I gauge...or its dial gauge tip harms more easily edges.
I'm not an engineer, and tend to use cheap tools. I once went into dollar stores, found a cheap plastic square that was too big to fit against the side of a skate, probably part of a drawing set (or maybe the square corner was on the inside of something), and cut it down to size. I had to search a lot because most plastic squares are rounded at the corner. I verified the angle was right by testing the blade on both sides. But the resulting tool was very small, and I lost it. :( Nonetheless it was very light, and unlikely to damage the edge. I may do it again some day.
Plastics typically have a larger coefficient of thermal expansion than metals. Perhaps that means shapes change more with temperature?
With Pro-Filer, I now take a few strokes in one direction, reverse the skate or Pro-Filer, and take a few more and repeat. That evens things out, and there is no uneven edge problem. Also, it is a short enough tool to follow minor blade warps, so they are no problem. Of course, if the gap between the blade and the tool was significant, there would be too much position shift, and I wouldn't get good sharp edges - one of the reasons (aside from reducing scratches) for first putting tape on both sides of narrow blades, to make the gap snug. It also would create sharp edges if the tool had an off-center gap, or if a blade had an abrupt bend, like I am told hockey players sometimes get when blades collide at high speed.
I could do the same even better with the old (about 1930-1950) Berghman sharpeners, if I decide to switch to .5" ROH. The adjustable gap size (I do have one old-style Pro-Filer with a slightly adjustable gap too), and the ease of seeing what you are doing are huge improvements, as long as you use a better quality modern cylindrical stone than crumbly coarse ones that they came with.
It is true that some very good, experienced skate techs manage to produce very good edges without using measuring tools most of the time. I think they just get a feel for what they are doing after a long period of practice. But a lot of the people who use no measuring tools are just trying to work in a hurry, or don't know how to do better.
But I now believe the "magic of measurement" is very useful for less experienced learners who want to learn to do the best they can. It took me a long time to figure out that measurement makes sense for learners. I had minimal instructions (a few minutes or less from the guy who sold me my Pro-filer, a display model that had no written instructions), had to mostly teach myself how to sharpen, and made a lot of early mistakes. E.g., I used to slow down my strokes too much at the ends. The result was that I gradually flattened the rocker on a pair of MK Dance blades, and I didn't even know about the sweet spot (rocker radius transition point). By that time I had learned to take off extremely little metal per sharpening, which meant that the blades lasted me for many, many years and many thousands of hours on the ice - so that systematic change I created with each sharpening had lots of time to build up. In the end, I took the blades to an expert skate tech who could reshape the rocker profile back to the original shape rapidly with a powered sharpening tool.
I also used another expert skate tech when I did my experiment trying to reshape the rocker profile of Jackson Matrix Dance blades to that of MK Dance, using a bench grinder, which created no ROH and probably uneven edges. If I had tried to create the rocker or ROH using a Pro-Filer, it would likely have worn out the diamond dust stone.
I don't think we should be bothered by sometimes going to the real experts who have the real professional grade tools. If we can do most of our own sharpenings, and produce sharper edges (if that is what we want, and I often do, especially if I am to skate on rough ice) and less rocker change (or only the desired changes) than most pros, that is still an achievement.
But I can see how those of you who have invested in purpose-built powered sharpening machines, which don't come cheap, would want to be able to do everything yourself.
This is going to be a very strange idea, but are there metal-cutting router bits that can grind the profile or impose an initial ROH (prior to refinements with better tools) on the relatively hard (Rockwell C of about 60) metal in high end skate blades? I don't have a router (though I might be able to buy one used, or use a router-adaptor that is powered by a hand-held drill) and would have to make a custom (very narrow) router table, but I wonder if that could be done. I picture guiding the router along a desired profile shape with a drafting spline, bent to the desired profile shape, which would first be fit to a printed shape made using software and a printer.
Or would any router bit be completely worn out on such hard metal?
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This is going to be a very strange idea, but are there metal-cutting router bits that can grind the profile or impose an initial ROH (prior to refinements with better tools) on the relatively hard (Rockwell C of about 60) metal in high end skate blades? I don't have a router (though I might be able to buy one used, or use a router-adaptor that is powered by a hand-held drill) and would have to make a custom (very narrow) router table, but I wonder if that could be done. I picture guiding the router along a desired profile shape with a drafting spline, bent to the desired profile shape, which would first be fit to a printed shape made using software and a printer.
Or would any router bit be completely worn out on such hard metal?
Don't try that! Most router bits have carbide cutters, and very brittle. You'll frag a router bit and hurt yourself!
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Don't try that! Most router bits have carbide cutters, and very brittle. You'll frag a router bit and hurt yourself!
Thanks!