John Wilson has a new blade called the Phoenix. Looks like a carbon-fiber chassis with a stainless steel blade.
QuoteYou spoke, and we listened. Designed with parallel side datum flats for ease of maintenance. No unique jig required.
'Phoenix' by John Wilson Blades. The lightest blade ever made.
https://www.instagram.com/p/CE1oH1uHgxu/?igshid=zxdpg5i268al
Interesting.
I wonder what rocker profile they will use? Will they copy an existing blade, or create a new one? I'm sure that these questions will be answered shortly.
It has stainless steel blades. About time that JW understood some of us like stainless.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9LCIKcnkQjM&feature=youtu.be
It looks like it is (partly?) held together by rivets?
They advertise it as easy to maintain (parallel sides, no special jig), but as people here have pointed out, stainless blades can't be sharpened by some sharpening wheels.
Interesting that JW puts ads on Instagram and Youtube before they list it on their own website.
Well, I'm glad to see Wilson consider ease of sharpening as an explicit design factor. I'm also glad that they finally see the merits of stainless steel for blades. But I'm really hoping they will have some options in stainless steel with the traditional construction (blade body with stanchions brazed to mounting plates), rather than the chassis plus attached runner construction.
Quote from: Bill_S on September 07, 2020, 07:04:18 PM
Interesting.
I wonder what rocker profile they will use? Will they copy an existing blade, or create a new one? I'm sure that these questions will be answered shortly.
They said (in an IG comment) that the blade was rated for triples/quads. The image shows the words "Phoenix Gold" on the chassis, so maybe they'll offer Gold Seal.
Based on the image/video, I'm thinking that "hybrid" template they created a few years ago - a Pattern 99 blade w/ a Gold Seal rocker.
Quote from: FigureSpins on September 07, 2020, 06:16:52 PM
John Wilson has a new blade called the Phoenix. Looks like a carbon-fiber chassis with a stainless steel blade.
https://www.instagram.com/p/CE1oH1uHgxu/?igshid=zxdpg5i268al
Sorry to say it but I would never buy that blade as it looks so ugly. Hopefully it's better in "real life"
Quote from: tstop4me on September 08, 2020, 08:08:19 AM
I'm really hoping they will have some options in stainless steel with the traditional construction (blade body with stanchions brazed to mounting plates), rather than the chassis plus attached runner construction.
Why? Is the former mechanically superior? Or do you prefer the look?
As you know, Jackson Ultima's highest end (Matrix) blades, as well as (AFAIK) all Paramount blades use the latter construction technique.
BTW, I have no reason to believe Phoenix blades are solely held together by rivets. It may be they are held together partly by chemical bonds - e.g., by an adhesive.
I assume 9999 New Zealand dollars for Coronation Phoenix blades (https://skatersedge.co.nz/john-wilson-phoenix-blades.html) isn't the real price.
No one would pay that much to take off a few ounces - would they? :angel:
Looking at these blades again I'm wondering if they are going to need the same sort of specialist jig that Jackson Matrix blades require?
Quote from: Christy on September 17, 2020, 07:29:20 PM
Looking at these blades again I'm wondering if they are going to need the same sort of specialist jig that Jackson Matrix blades require?
From Reddit, I think the user was quoting from YouTube:
17 days ago
Ditto Ultima. Hope skaters who buy it know to make sure their sharpeners have the right equipment for it.
16 days ago
here's what I read from the comments so far:
soon we will be releasing more marketing material to distinguish between traditional, Revolution and Phoenix. Each category has it's own level of responsiveness and the Phoenix Gold will not be tapered and hollow ground. If you're willing to sacrifice these features, and want the lightest blade with the Gold Seal curve, then yes, this blade is probably best for you. Stay tuned as we have more informative content lined up!
I'm assuming they'll create a whole line of phoenix blades from their current lineup of traditional blades.
Someone asked if the blades need a unique sharpening equipment/jig like in matrix blades and here's their response:
nope! We've designed this to have parallel datum flats for ease of maintenance!
Quote from: MCsAngel2 on September 17, 2020, 10:37:11 PM
From Reddit, I think the user was quoting from YouTube:
17 days ago
Ditto Ultima. Hope skaters who buy it know to make sure their sharpeners have the right equipment for it.
16 days ago
here's what I read from the comments so far:
soon we will be releasing more marketing material to distinguish between traditional, Revolution and Phoenix. Each category has it's own level of responsiveness and the Phoenix Gold will not be tapered and hollow ground. If you're willing to sacrifice these features, and want the lightest blade with the Gold Seal curve, then yes, this blade is probably best for you. Stay tuned as we have more informative content lined up!
I'm assuming they'll create a whole line of phoenix blades from their current lineup of traditional blades.
Someone asked if the blades need a unique sharpening equipment/jig like in matrix blades and here's their response:
nope! We've designed this to have parallel datum flats for ease of maintenance!
Thank you for this description. I'm getting ready to probably buy Gold Seal Revolution and then I found out about these Phoenix blades coming soon and
panic! I don't want to buy something only to regret it when something "better" gets released only a week later. Personally, I don't find the Phoenix blades as "pretty" lol, but I'm obsessed with lightness..... But how much weight difference is there really going to be between a Revolution and a Phoenix?
Quote from: Arwen17 on October 04, 2020, 11:26:25 AM
Thank you for this description. I'm getting ready to probably buy Gold Seal Revolution and then I found out about these Phoenix blades coming soon and panic! I don't want to buy something only to regret it when something "better" gets released only a week later. Personally, I don't find the Phoenix blades as "pretty" lol, but I'm obsessed with lightness..... But how much weight difference is there really going to be between a Revolution and a Phoenix?
Did you note the caveat: "Each category has it's own level of responsiveness and the Phoenix Gold will not be tapered and hollow ground. If you're willing to sacrifice these features, and want the lightest blade with the Gold Seal curve, then yes, this blade is probably best for you."?
Are you willing to forgo the tapered thickness and concave side honing?
Quote from: tstop4me on October 04, 2020, 11:52:06 AM
Did you note the caveat: "Each category has it's own level of responsiveness and the Phoenix Gold will not be tapered and hollow ground. If you're willing to sacrifice these features, and want the lightest blade with the Gold Seal curve, then yes, this blade is probably best for you."?
Are you willing to forgo the tapered thickness and concave side honing?
I'm still planning on buying the Gold Seal Rev. My question was more rhetorical: how much is the weight difference really going to be between the GS Rev. and the Phoenix? 0.02 oz? I was just making the point that it would have sucked to buy GS Rev. and suddenly this FAR superior blade was released a month later, but this turned out to not be the case.
Quote from: Bill_S on October 05, 2020, 11:21:49 AM
The thing that I remember most about my trial with Gold Seals was how easy it was to get a loud "rip" using just modest edges. They were noisy - something that I attribute to the tapered blade.
So you get to fake that you have better edges than you do with some added sound effects? XD That's awesome haha.
I'm coming from a Matrix Legacy blade, which is the first "real" blade I've ever really skated on. Before that, it was the super cheap crappy Mark IV. Granted I was doing underrotated axels and camel spins in Mark IV, so I can do a lot of stuff, even with subpar equipment. The Legacy toe pick was a big jump up for me and bothered me at first, but once I adjusted to the size of it, I fell in love with it. I didn't really notice any other difference since I've always made a point to skate on blades with a 8" rocker since the very beginning.
It will be interesting if GSRev feels any different to me or not. It may very well not have much of any difference to me, since like I said, I seem to be very non-sensitive to equipment changes and can skate on pretty much anything as long as it doesn't break down underneath the force of my jumps etc. I did literally destroy a recreational boot when I was first learning toe loop. oops!
I skated with a figure skating judge on morning ice. When I put on the Gold Seals and demonstrated the "growly" edges, she laughed. There are some moves tests where a rip sound is expected.
She said, in jest, that she'd have to start asking about skater's blades before a test.
Quote from: Bill_S on October 05, 2020, 04:17:46 PM
I skated with a figure skating judge on morning ice. When I put on the Gold Seals and demonstrated the "growly" edges, she laughed. There are some moves tests where a rip sound is expected.
She said, in jest, that she'd have to start asking about skater's blades before a test.
That's interesting. Paramounts have a reputation for being especially noisy. Some coaches I know caution skaters to shy away from them because some judges consider the noise to be indicative of scraping the toepicks, leading to downgrades. Just the opposite scenario of the one you describe: noise possibly giving an advantage.
I would see that as a different kind of noise. Think of hockey skates and the way they amplify scraping sounds vs. a growling rip from pressed edges on figure skates.
Quote from: Bill_S on October 06, 2020, 10:15:59 AM
I would see that as a different kind of noise. Think of hockey skates and the way they amplify scraping sounds vs. a growling rip from pressed edges on figure skates.
Yeah, but the question is whether some judges' hearing is sufficiently discerning. One coach I know prefers Paramounts. She cautions skaters that judges
should be able to tell the difference ... but don't count on it. [ETA: One pro shop I've gone to is run by a guy who is a coach, and previously a competitive and pro skater. He gave me the same caution about Ultima Matrix blades as well. I skate for fun, and don't do tests (though my coach keeps nudging me to); so noise is not a concern of mine.]
Quote from: Query on February 10, 2021, 01:31:49 PM
But these blades were advertised as being lighter than other similar blades, but were presumably still sufficiently strong and rigid. As best I understand it, one of the ways to do that is by removing the parts of the structure that take the least stress. Honeycombing the interior structure would be a lot harder to do, but a complicated side-honing pattern (i.e., uneven thicknesses) on the chassis (or whatever you want to call the structure that holds the "runner" that touches the ice), helps do that. Of course, most high end blades already have cut-out areas, which help with that too.
The point is, Will they allow skaters to perform better? Assuming, for the sake of argument, that the lighter weight does allow at least a subset of elite skaters to perform better, performance will still depend on properly sharpened edges: What good is having the world's lightest blade, if the edges are easy to screw up when they get sharpened (assuming you can find someone to sharpen them)?
One of the younger skaters at our rink - around Intermediate Freeskate level - just got Phoenix Gold Seals, in black. They look so unusual with the white skates on the white ice. She's got great edging and turns - I could hear the rips, but it wasn't that much louder than she was doing on her previous blades. You'll get used to them.
Quote from: OldGuyDown on February 13, 2021, 12:00:56 PM
She says there is no way I'll pass silver moves if I can't quiet them down.
I'm hoping it's just because they are super sharp???
Wouldn't super sharp blades would have less slide slip, and would therefore be quieter?
And if it is the chassis + runner construction, I can't think of a reason that would be noisier - unless the connection is not very good. That would worry me - if the connection isn't good, it could mean the blade might break, or even shift in use. The pictures appear to show them being riveted together. But there may also be glue between the, and if that isn't solid, that could be a bad sign for blade lifetime.
I haven't noticed my old-style Matrix blades (chassis and runner bolted together tight by me, by 5 bolts/blade, not screwed [and the screws glued] by just 3 tiny screws like the newer style) Matrix blades are especially noisy in terms of edge noise - except when I DO accidentally let the toe pick touch. However, they neglected to put something like sound-absorbing rubber between the blade and the top of the mount - so they would CLICK (especially when they were new) when my toe pick touched, and maybe when the back of the blade touched. I eventually glued in thin rubber or similar material buffer strips to stop that - but Ultima should have done that at the factory.
But maybe I am less picky about noise than some?
I have wondered about the physics of chassis+runner construction, when they aren't made of the same material. If the two materials have different thermal expansion characteristics, how can they stay together as you move between off-ice and on-ice?
I suppose one way to take care of that would be to be held by just bolts or screws, and to have extra space to give between the sides of the holder and the blade. The blade or the holder could then warp a little between the bolts or screws. But then the blade and holder could vibrate against each other, and make noise. That could be taken care of by using sound absorbing compressive material between the two - but AFAIK, none of those blades have that - though the glue could do that if it was formulated right. On old-style Matrix, the bolts pulled the sides of the holder against the blade, if you made them tight enough, so that didn't really happen. It would have been a great system - if they hadn't used soft aluminum bolts that sometimes stripped the threads and the very small hex key heads, and they had used rubber buffer.
I think Paramount blades have only glue, no bolts or screws - right?
Some hockey blades were made with replaceable edges - not the replaceable runners that almost all high end hockey blades now all have. I think you replaced the edge instead of re-sharpening them. I saw a complaint that they were very noisy, so much so that opponents could tell what you were doing with the edges. It's the same idea - if you have two pieces against each other, that aren't locked into place very tight, they can vibrate. I assume that problem doesn't occur in replaceable runner hockey blades, because they too use holder material that warps to fit when you tighten them in place?
Quote from: Query on February 14, 2021, 01:53:21 PM
I think Paramount blades have only glue, no bolts or screws - right?
Paramount does not use any separate mechanical fasteners, such as bolts, screws, or rivets. Their website provides no details of how they attach the runner to the chassis. But I looked up their patent; there they disclose that they use an adhesive.
Quote from: Query on February 14, 2021, 01:53:21 PM
And if it is the chassis + runner construction, I can't think of a reason that would be noisier - unless the connection is not very good. That would worry me - if the connection isn't good, it could mean the blade might break, or even shift in use. The pictures appear to show them being riveted together. But there may also be glue between the, and if that isn't solid, that could be a bad sign for blade lifetime.
Here's one possible mechanism that doesn't involve loose connections. There is a strong discontinuity in materials at the boundary (interface) between the runner and the chassis. Acoustic waves are generated in the runner through mechanical interaction with the ice. Some of the acoustic waves are transmitted by the runner into the air (as they are in a traditional blade). Other acoustic waves propagate through the runner to the boundary and are scattered at the boundary. Some of the scattered waves are transmitted into the air (which does not happen in a traditional blade). Some of the scattered waves are propagated into the chassis. The chassis has more surface area than the corresponding region of a traditional blade. The chassis then acts as a larger acoustic transmitter than the corresponding region of a traditional blade. This would be an interesting problem to model and test.
Quote from: tstop4me on February 14, 2021, 04:04:54 PM
The H.D.I. doesn't measure rocker (by which I assume you mean the blade curvature along the longitudinal axis from toe to heel) at all.
Edge Specialties, that sells the H.D.I. says on their website (http://pro-filer.com/hdi)
QuoteTroubleshoot:
Check for accurate hollow depth
Check for edge balance
Check rocker radius
The H.D.I. is the only measuring tool that indicates the precise depth of hollow, the edge balance and rocker radius. This indication by the H.D.I. will totally remove the skate grinding guesswork and deliver confidence to the skate sharpening professional and skater.
Perhaps they mean ROH (radius of hollow) rather than rocker? But elsewhere on their site they use "hollow" and rocker the same way we do.
I couldn't figure out from the pictures how the HDI would measure rocker - I think you need at least three depth measurements along the length of the blade to do that. Did they make a mistake in their ad?
(Such a mistake would actually be consistent with the fact that the same page lists a table with the correspondence between hollow depth and ROH - though such a table can only be accurate if the blades are still sharp, but have been very lightly deburred, so there is no foil edge sticking above the hollow/side corner. On a dull blade, they would be in accurate.)
Also, as near as I can measure it without extreme skill, using my calipers (which read to .0005", but I'm not that consistent), Berghman sharpeners need a flat blade region at a height above the edge of
.3820" = 9.690 mm
I can carefully make it work with my old style Matrix blades (though I'm not sure the coarse crumbly old stone - possibly a natural "grindstone" - would work on stainless steel blades) - but I'm not actually clamping on the runner, or even the tilted surface next to the runner. But it was certainly easier on parallel sided MK Dance blades, and flat sided Coronation Ace blades. Of course, since old style Matrix runners were removable, I could do it more easily by removing the runners from the chassis - but that is inconvenient for a quick sharpen at the rink, and I tried to avoid demounting the runner as much as I could with those stupid soft aluminum bolts and nuts. New style Matrix runners are not removable, so doing it that way simply isn't an option anymore.
Also, all Berghman sharpeners were designed for .5" ROH. I once tried wrapping tape around a 3/8" radius stone from my Pro-Filer, and putting it in the Berghman holder, but the tape compressed a bit inconsistently, and I didn't like the results. So I bought a used 1/2" (Hockey) Pro-Filer on the web and used its stone instead - which worked, on rental skates - I didn't want that .5" ROH on my "real" blades.
So - unless the Phoenix blades have a flat surface at that height to clamp on to, all the way down the length of the blade, Berghman sharpeners would probably not do a great job on Phoenix Blades.
Help me to figure out why they don't create nice flat surfaces to clamp on to, on Phoenix blades?
P.S. I'm not sure there has to be significantly more sound-emitting surface area on Chassis+runner style blades, but your idea that noise is partly scattered out of the steel by a boundary layer effect sounds plausible. Could one theoretically use a sound-absorbing material between the chassis and runner without adverse effect?
Quote from: Query on February 14, 2021, 10:00:39 PM
Edge Specialties, that sells the H.D.I. says on their website (http://pro-filer.com/hdi)
Perhaps they mean ROH (radius of hollow) rather than rocker? But elsewhere on their site they use "hollow" and rocker the same way we do.
I couldn't figure out from the pictures how the HDI would measure rocker - I think you need at least three depth measurements along the length of the blade to do that. Did they make a mistake in their ad?
(Such a mistake would actually be consistent with the fact that the same page lists a table with the correspondence between hollow depth and ROH - though such a table can only be accurate if the blades are still sharp, but have been very lightly deburred, so there is no foil edge sticking above the hollow/side corner. On a dull blade, they would be in accurate.)
The page you cited needs to be rewritten. The H.D.I. definitely is not capable of measuring rocker radius; it takes measurements only transverse to the longitudinal axis. Edge Specialties does sell rocker bar templates (http://pro-filer.com/rockerbars/), suitable for hockey, but not figure skates (their templates range from 9' to 28' radius, whereas figure skates typically are 7' or 8' radius for the main rocker).
If you continue to the bottom of the page you cited for the H.D.I. description, you will find the following under the heading "Blade Condition--Is it Really Important?":
"Improperly conditioned blades, whether it be dull edges, inappropriate hollow, off center hollow or distorted hollow can greatly hinder a skater's performance.
Hollow depth, edge balance, edge sharpness and blade rockering are the four primary factors of "Blade Condition". Any deterioration of blade condition will negatively affect skater performance. The worse the condition, the more negative the impact.
The majority of skaters, both figure and hockey, are performing on faulty blades. Faulty blade conditions should be discovered when repair is easily performed. But, other than dull edges, it is difficult to evaluate blade condition without specific measuring tools.
The H.D.I. and Rocker Bars present an instant picture of blade condition. These tools will detect defects early and accurately so that you can make adjustments before skater performance is compromised. Poor blade conditions can easily be detected and consequently corrected if you have the proper tools and information. Where skate blades are concerned, what you don't know definitely can hurt you!" <<Emphasis Added>>
So some writer jumbled up the H.D.I. and Rocker Bars. And no one at Edge Specialties proofread the copy, apparently.
Quote from: Query on February 14, 2021, 10:00:39 PM
Help me to figure out why they don't create nice flat surfaces to clamp on to, on Phoenix blades?
Previous discussions touched on this issue.
I wrote:
Quote from: tstop4me on February 10, 2021, 04:46:47 AM
I was hoping that Wilson had learned from the mistakes that Ultima Matrix and Paramount made: when you design a new blade, you need to take into consideration ease of sharpening and ease of checking the edges (preferably with existing equipment; not custom gear for each line).
To which you responded:
Quote from: Query on February 10, 2021, 01:31:49 PM
But these blades were advertised as being lighter than other similar blades, but were presumably still sufficiently strong and rigid. As best I understand it, one of the ways to do that is by removing the parts of the structure that take the least stress. Honeycombing the interior structure would be a lot harder to do, but a complicated side-honing pattern (i.e., uneven thicknesses) on the chassis (or whatever you want to call the structure that holds the "runner" that touches the ice), helps do that. Of course, most high end blades already have cut-out areas, which help with that too.
To which I in turn responded:
Quote from: tstop4me on February 10, 2021, 04:07:29 PM
The point is, Will they allow skaters to perform better? Assuming, for the sake of argument, that the lighter weight does allow at least a subset of elite skaters to perform better, performance will still depend on properly sharpened edges: What good is having the world's lightest blade, if the edges are easy to screw up when they get sharpened (assuming you can find someone to sharpen them)?
If I understand your response correctly, even you were in favor of sacrificing ease of sharpening and edge checking for lighter weight. Now consider the perspective of the Wilson marketing guys, who want the bragging rights to the "world's lightest blade".
A good chunk of my career was spent as a systems engineer writing requirements for design engineers. A key issue that constantly arises is local optimization vs. global optimization; i.e., you need to consider the overall performance of the system, not just the performance of individual components and modules. In our current context, we have blade manufacturers (as well as boot manufacturers) narrowly focussed on optimizing weight (i.e., achieving the lightest weight) without considering overall performance. As I wrote before: What good is having the world's lightest blade, if the edges are easy to screw up when they get sharpened (assuming you can find someone to sharpen them)?
Knife fanatics obsess over grades of steel and blade profiles. One factor of concern to them is "sharpenability" : not only do you need to consider which steel and which profile can achieve a sharp, durable edge, you also need to consider how easily you can form (sharpen) that edge in the first place and how easily you can maintain (resharpen) that edge afterwards. Skate blade manufacturers need to adopt a similar philosophy. E.g., Paramount brags about CNC grinders for sharpening at their factory. OK, but how many skate techs have such equipment for subsequent sharpenings? If I were writing requirements for a new blade design, I would include requirements addressing ease of sharpening and edge checking. Of course, the marketing guys would probably beat on me to delete them. As would the artistic designers, probably. ;)
Quote from: Query on February 14, 2021, 02:27:54 PM
How good a job does the H.D.I. tool do of measuring rocker, and how does that work?
Reason why H.D.I gauge cannot measure radius of the blade profile is, that the dial gauge is not symmetrically positioned in to the middle of guiding pins. If it would be in the middle, in theory rocker radius could be measured just like with Sid Broadbent Rocker radius gauge. See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0D_7moANVlY
You need to zero dial gauge in to level of pins somehow and calculate the radius using trigonometry...or alternatively you should have calibration piece which radius in known. Distance from pins to dial gauge tip needs to be known. In case of H.D.I gauge, distance from pin to pin is longer than in Sid´s gauge. Even the dial gauge would be in the middle like I sketched, measuring would be difficult.
When I suggested that they had the shape they had, to save weight, I wasn't agreeing with what they did. Just trying to come up with a vaguely plausible explanation for why they might have done it. (I didn't even consider that there might have been an artistic component to that design.) I agree with you that sharpenability is much more important than a saving few grams. I honestly think manufacturers need to take into better account the relatively poor training that MOST skate techs get, and the pressure they are under to sharpen as many blades/hour as they can.
The troubles that the OldGuyDown ran into getting Phoenix blades sharpened demonstrates the problem. The vast majority of skate techs couldn't sharpen them well, either because they lack the skill, and/or they lack the tools. One thing I admire about her original sharpener is that he knew enough to know that he couldn't do a good job on them - so she looked elsewhere, and eventually found someone who could. But I've run into a lot of skate techs who wouldn't understand they couldn't do a good job. I agree with you that blade makers should do everything they reasonably can to make it easyier to do well.
As an adult skater and a sharpener, I have to agree that features that are added to enhance blade performance are only helpful if they don't get in the way of getting a consistent, level sharpening.
Side-honed blades, for example...as an engineer who comes from generations of fairly skilled craftsmen, I have a pretty good eye, but I find it frustrating trying to match the gap between the square and the sides on either side of the blade, particularly when I can observe that the angle is inconsistent once you get into the chrome relief due to grinding variation. I like to think my skaters on side-honed blades get a fairly consistent sharpening from me, but I doubt it's as level as I produce on parallel blades. Dovetail blades like the Ultima Apex Elite or the MK Dance are so much better of a design for changing the bite angle.
I don't really understand the obsession with lightness if it's at the cost of inconsistent edges. Of course, I'm an ice dancer, so I might think otherwise if I was trying to do multiple-rotation jumps. Nonetheless, I still think a consistent takeoff edge seems pretty important, and a landing edge that holds you upright is equally desirable.
Finding someone who is dedicated to producing level edges, preserving your profile, and minimizing metal removal is already a challenge (see previous pages of discussion plus numerous other threads on this forum where the terms "the good sharpener" and "the bad sharpener" are used). While I am pleased that JW seems to have thought about sharpening when designing the Phoenix, it seems like they still expect their skaters to have to hunt for a highly competent sharpener who also has equipment that accommodates the carbon chassis. A noble quest, no doubt, but should a skater have to work this hard just to get the skates sharpened? Skating is difficult enough already, even with custom boots, level edges, and a good coach.
Perhaps JW (and their parent company, HD Sports) assumes that anyone who chooses to spend that much money on skate blades will be a high level elite skater, and WILL use one of the relatively few skate techs who CAN produce good edges on them.
But if a significant number of skaters buy them and get poor results from them, I assume that hurts JW. From a purely business point of view, should JW and makers of other difficult-to-sharpen blades provide a warning in their ads that many skate techs will have trouble sharpening them, so that won't happen?
Quote from: supersharp on February 16, 2021, 02:33:31 AM
Dovetail blades like the Ultima Apex Elite or the MK Dance are so much better of a design for changing the bite angle.
Off-topic again: How do you know Ultima Apex Elite or the MK Dance use dovetail (i.e., wider at the bottom) shapes? I used and sharpened my MK Dance blades - and didn't notice the problems that might have caused. I can't find anything else online that says they use dovetail shapes.
After 10 hours on the blades I think I can give an initial impression...INCREDIBLE!
1) FAST. These things are faster than my patch blades (8.5' main rocker) ground to the same 1/2" ROH. They glide forever and I don't know why.
2) Very deep & controllable edges. This one surprised me on my back power pulls. I felt like I could reach down and touch the ice.
3) Super light. Basically, take the blades off the boots you have and that's what they feel like.
4) They do not flex. I don't know if this is good or bad but they just don't.
5) All 3's were very snappy. It took me one session to figure out that I had to check harder but no problems after that.
And now the bad news...
I have to put my old blades back on.
Coach said they might be OK for someone skating a program to very loud music but not for a moves test.
She said I sound like a skidding dump truck.
Quote from: OldGuyDown on February 16, 2021, 04:18:54 PM
And now the bad news...
I have to put my old blades back on.
Coach said they might be OK for someone skating a program to very loud music but not for a moves test.
She said I sound like a skidding dump truck.
Yikes, so you now have pricey paperweights (and not even good paperweights because they're so light ;))? Anyone at your rink skate on Paramount or Ultima Matrix blades? I'd be interested in how the noise levels of the Phoenix compare with the noise levels of those.
Quote from: Query on February 16, 2021, 03:13:11 PM
From a purely business point of view, should JW and makers of other difficult-to-sharpen blades provide a warning in their ads that many skate techs will have trouble sharpening them
I just realized that was a pretty dumb suggestion. Almost no manufacturer advertises future service problems to end customers. I assume that the market does not reward such honesty.
But maybe they could warn their own dealers. AFAICT, it is typical for pro shops to make a larger profit by sharpening blades than by selling them. If a dealer sells a customer blades it cannot sharpen (let alone on a brand like JW or MK which has developed a reputation that their factory sharpening needs to be touched up by the dealer), not only have they lost that customer's future sharpening business, but the customer is likely to mention the issue to their fellow skaters, who will assume the dealer to be generically incompetent and start a local trend driving business away from that dealer. That will lose the dealer money. So the dealer will hesitate to sell future products from that manufacturer. And THAT really is bad for the manufacturer's business.
I don't know whether OldGuyDown has suggested to other local skaters that they stay away from that dealer. But many people who read skatingforums may be driven away by this discussion from buying Phoenix blades, which COULD hurt business.
OldGuyDown, I'm glad that you found some things you love about these blades! By the way, I think that thin blades – and according to the ads, these, like MK Dance (which more or less dominate ice dance), are ground thin at the bottom – tend to go faster and glide longer; maybe the long glide would be great for Moves, if only you could put ear muffs on the judges. :) I think the fast 3 turns and easier power pulls are part of being thin too, because you can change edges faster. But – I'm not completely sure of this cuz I can't spin well – I think super-thin blades are harder to center spins on (but make twizzles easier). I'm not sure if thin blades create any other problems, but there has to be a good reason why figure skating blades are substantially wider than hockey and speed blades, and why most other figure skating blades aren't thinline.
I wonder if thin blades affect noise level. In ice dance, I was told that you were
supposed to hear the edges while rounding lobes, because that demonstrated you were pushing hard against the edges, and creating a deeper leaned edge, though the noise of scraping the toe pick was not considered good. So if for some reason thin blades make more noise, that might be an advantage IN ICE DANCE - but maybe not other disciplines.
Quote from: Query on February 16, 2021, 05:24:59 PM
I wonder if thin blades affect noise level.
I'm getting 3.75 mm on my very quiet school figures blades & 4.07 mm off the Phoenix ones.
Seems odd :o
Quote from: OldGuyDown on February 17, 2021, 08:02:03 AM
I'm getting 3.75 mm on my very quiet school figures blades & 4.07 mm off the Phoenix ones.
Seems odd :o
OK, so thinline blades needn't be loud.
It's so unfair that you bought the super-expensive, super-light, super-fast blades, worked so hard to get them sharpened right - and after all that, can't use them on your moves test. :'( Maybe them will become popular enough that judges will eventually get used to the noise?
In This video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9LCIKcnkQjM) all you hear is music! :)
So odd - I wonder why I can't find any other places on the web noticing loud noises from Phoenix blades. Though maybe not enough people have tried them yet for such things to be noticed.
https://www.shop.kinziescloset.com/Wilson-Figure-Skating-Blades_c69.htm claims that Revolution Blades - also carbon fiber chassis, if you can call it that - are relatively quiet.
I'd be tempted to contact JW and see if they should be especially noisy. Maybe it is just a defect, due to a poor physical connection somewhere.
E.g., https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AH5z5t3kY9I says one of the pins was loose on a new test blade, and there was also cracking in the carbon fiber. I could imagine that creating noise. However, that was only a pre-production model. But it is possible that JW is still working on creating good joints in these new blades.
Mod note: split topic into detailed technical sharpening and original product discussions. Carry on.