I'm still having skate fit issues. I've had 2 pairs of Jackson Debut Fusions (1st a 5.5 W, 2nd and current 6 W) and they still give me the same squeezing the sides of my feet pain in my arches. I've decided I probably need semi custom extra wide skates, however I have another problem. (The 6s were sent back to the factory recently to be stretched but they still cause the same pain. I'm in less pain if I skip the front half of my boot and only lace from my ankle up, but it still hurts quite a bit.)
My group lesson coach has said (even before the corona shutdown) that she can see that I'm pitched forward towards the front of my boot/blade, but that nothing in my posture indicates that I'm misplacing my weight to cause it. So it probably has to do with the boot and I'm not sure what that means so I can get a boot that doesn't do this. I don't remember this being a problem in the 5.5s (but it's been a year-ish since I've skated in them so I could be wrong), but my big toe was being bruised by the front of the skate along with the too narrow pain.
Had to add this seperately for some reason.
Does this mean it's just that the length is too long for my foot? Or should I get the blade mounted further back? While the 5.5s were the exact same length of the blade, the 6s are mounted with the blade all the way to the front with about 1/4 of an inch left over on the heel. I'm really not sure how much of a difference this makes.
Any advice?
Apparently you or an imperfect fitter have already guessed wrong twice on boot fit, twice.
I don't know if he is open and taking new customers (call ahead), but your indicated location is within about 1.5 hours of Mike Cunningham, (https://skatersparadise.com), one of the world's best known skate fitters. He could help you not make a mistake again. If he isn't taking new customers, talk to people at Jackson to see who they would suggest. I suggest you don't go to another second tier fitter, unless you want to keep wasting money and creating pain or possibly injury.
Have you tried:
1. Removing the insoles to make extra space inside the boot? You could also try not wearing socks. These probably won't solve the whole fit problem, but if it makes enough space not to pinch, there is at least a possibility of fixing things by making or modifying an insole to fit you.
2. Placing tape on the underside of the insole, or of a thin insole cut to the same traced perimeter shape, underneath the arch? It is somewhat possible the arches of your feet are collapsing too much, which splays out the foot to the sides, so that raising the arch would help. As a quick easily reversed test, you could just fold up part of a paper towel and put it underneath the arch, to see whether this would help.
3. Did Jackson's stretch help for a little while? You could buy a ball & ring pliers (also called hoke and ball pliers, or heavy duty bunion stretcher), so you can repeadtedly restretch the boot yourself, with the help of a hair drier? But, if even the factory couldn't do a good enough job, even for a little while, you are unlikely to do any better, or even as well.
Skater's Paradise was my original plan when I left school back in 2018, but when I called, they weren't taking new skaters. I'll definitely call again and see if that's still true. (Although, I feel a little guilty going to someone else after this one has tried so hard to help me as best he can)
I haven't asked Jackson about a fitter suggestion, but the fitter/owner that is working with me at my home rink was talking to Jackson which is how my skates for sent back. This all kicked off when I sent them message on FB expressing my frustrations and they contacted him themselves.
1. I have skated without the insoles before and I hated the way it felt/it didn't really relieve the pain, just delayed the onset a bit. But I'll definitely try again now that something has been done to them. (I had actually bought cheap insoles from Target to try this, but talked myself out of it since the pain hasn't changed at all.)
2. This might work along with not lacing the front. I'll give it a try. I also have the riedell footbed system somewhere...
3. It doesn't seem to have made a difference. It's the exact same pain I've had all 3 years I've been skating. I can go a while longer without pain with the modified lacing, but it does start up eventually.
Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk
Quote from: AspenonIce on July 08, 2020, 10:59:37 PM
Skater's Paradise was my original plan when I left school back in 2018, but when I called, they weren't taking new skaters. I'll definitely call again and see if that's still true. (Although, I feel a little guilty going to someone else after this one has tried so hard to help me as best he can)
Mike Cunningham is retired. I don't know if his shop is still in existence, under new ownership, but I am somehow doubtful. If you're coming to the DC area, you might want to check around Fairfax ice rink (VA) and see who they recommend.
If your current guy can't figure it out, you don't need to feel guilty about going elsewhere. You can still go to him for other things, and maybe you'll learn something that will help him. There's as much art to skate fitting as science. And Mike, as good as he was, still wasn't perfect.
One thing that helped me, was to take tracings of my feet, then I compared those to the measurements on Kinzies Closet. I discovered that have one foot that is wider than the other (thanks to a bunion). Not your problem, but may be an enlightening exercise nonetheless.
For my old skates, I used some of the lacing techniques I learned about on AgnesNitts blog The ice Doesn't care". They helped a lot (but weren't magic).
What helped most was going to customs with Jackson. I did this two years ago with Mike, who was also working directly with the people at Jackson. They are still not perfect, but far and away the best fitting skates I've ever had. When they die, and I have to get new ones, I'll make relatively minor tweaks. Worth every penny of the price tag. Riedells also do really good customs, as I understand it.
Be persistent. You'll get it sorted out, eventually. Hopefully sooner rather than later.
Hello AspenonIce. If I understand this correctly, your boots are too tight on the side. I see you have tried skating without your insoles.
There is a solution, but you will never be able to sell the skates. Are you willing to try that? You should get a coach or skate tech to work with you on this. It's an old ice show skater trick.
http://icedoesntcare.blogspot.com/2013/08/surgical-intervention-on-figure-skating.html
An experienced show skater did this to my skates and I skated pain free for years in them. Then they got old and I had two pair of custom Harlick's built which were fine after I did some superfitting.
You said you pitch forward? What blades are you using? If that pitching happens with every pair of boots it sounds more like a blade issue.
Also, the big toe pain may be caused because your heels aren't deep enough in the counter (the back of the boot). There's a simple lacing trick for that Here:
http://icedoesntcare.blogspot.com/2015/12/techniques-for-lacing-your-skates.html
In the second image down, the one with the blue background, you'll see a lacing marked "heel slipping" on the right. That may help. You may not feel your heel 'slipping' but once you start lacing your skate that way, it will push your foot back further in your boot. If it works, you should find the pressure on your toes decreased. If it doesn't work, try something else.
After years of talking to show skaters in my friend group, and googling things, I developed a collection of tricks I call Superfitting your skates. Unless the skates are completely the wrong size you can tweak them quite a bit.
http://icedoesntcare.blogspot.com/2014/08/super-fitting-your-boot.html (http://icedoesntcare.blogspot.com/2014/08/super-fitting-your-boot.html)
Quote from: Loops on July 09, 2020, 02:12:12 AM
Mike Cunningham is retired. I don't know if his shop is still in existence, under new ownership, but I am somehow doubtful. If you're coming to the DC area, you might want to check around Fairfax ice rink (VA) and see who they recommend.
If your current guy can't figure it out, you don't need to feel guilty about going elsewhere. You can still go to him for other things, and maybe you'll learn something that will help him. There's as much art to skate fitting as science. And Mike, as good as he was, still wasn't perfect.
One thing that helped me, was to take tracings of my feet, then I compared those to the measurements on Kinzies Closet. I discovered that have one foot that is wider than the other (thanks to a bunion). Not your problem, but may be an enlightening exercise nonetheless.
For my old skates, I used some of the lacing techniques I learned about on AgnesNitts blog The ice Doesn't care". They helped a lot (but weren't magic).
What helped most was going to customs with Jackson. I did this two years ago with Mike, who was also working directly with the people at Jackson. They are still not perfect, but far and away the best fitting skates I've ever had. When they die, and I have to get new ones, I'll make relatively minor tweaks. Worth every penny of the price tag. Riedells also do really good customs, as I understand it.
Be persistent. You'll get it sorted out, eventually. Hopefully sooner rather than later.
I just looked around online and it looks like the shop officially closed down in March this year.
I actually was fitted at Fairfax first for the 5.5s. At that time I did not know it was the sister rink to my home rink and was just looking for another fitter close enough to get to. The owner of both is the one helping me and he actually discounted the second pair as he felt bad I had been fitted incorrectly.
When my boots were sent to Jackson we actually sent foot tracings along with them. My feet are approximately the same width (which is about the same as the length of my feet). That didn't seem to help as the boots feel the same as before and I'm not sure what they tired to do to fix the issue.
Looking at the size charts on Kinzie's Closet, to get the appropriate width for my foot, I would need a women's 8D boot, which is obviously way too long.
The only other fitter I've ever gone to is 500 miles away. They recognized my wide feet right away, but I wasn't able to buy skates from them before I left the area.
I'm going to try the lacing and other tricks for now as I try to figure out if I need to drive back to Western NY to get a proper fitting.
Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk
Quote from: AspenonIce on July 09, 2020, 10:09:28 AM
I just looked around online and it looks like the shop officially closed down in March this year.
I actually was fitted at Fairfax first for the 5.5s. At that time I did not know it was the sister rink to my home rink and was just looking for another fitter close enough to get to. The owner of both is the one helping me and he actually discounted the second pair as he felt bad I had been fitted incorrectly.
When my boots were sent to Jackson we actually sent foot tracings along with them. My feet are approximately the same width (which is about the same as the length of my feet). That didn't seem to help as the boots feel the same as before and I'm not sure what they tired to do to fix the issue.
Looking at the size charts on Kinzie's Closet, to get the appropriate width for my foot, I would need a women's 8D boot, which is obviously way too long.
The only other fitter I've ever gone to is 500 miles away. They recognized my wide feet right away, but I wasn't able to buy skates from them before I left the area.
I'm going to try the lacing and other tricks for now as I try to figure out if I need to drive back to Western NY to get a proper fitting.
Oh wow. When I was a kid, back in the 80's, Audrey Weisinger's students at least all went to Mike. Shoot, we all went to Mike, so that might not be saying that much. But that might have also been before Fairfax had an in-house tech. Given the level of skaters that have come out of that club, I would have thought the fitter there was better equipped. That's where had been thinking of going now that Mike's done, if I have to come back to the US to get new skates (now that I have specs, I'm hoping I can just do it from here).
How wide can Jackson go? If you know your length, and the circumference of your feet, can't they do at least a semi-custom pair for you? I would think that the foot tracings would have been very useful- that's how they determined the length and width of mine. They started with the base length (8.5 in both cases), then a base width (B on one, C on the other) then there are comments about removing 1/8" on this side and 1/16th on that side. They can do some pretty fine tuning. But it might be just in the full customs.
I'm surprised the guy at Fairfax (disappointed, actually) couldn't help you out. I'm wondering now if all their highly competitive skaters didn't just go to Mike. Who's the go-to guy in the area now?
In the meantime, try some of AgneNitt's tricks. She has some really good advice on her blog. I came very close to slicing my old boots like she did in the link she posted above.
I have duckfeet. Wide forefoot, narrow heel.
Mike recommended I go with Harlick full customs X-line. At the time he said Jackson's didn't do full customs for anything less than premiers and they were too stiff for me. (Jacksons has changed the line since then, so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. If you're doing doubles they'd probably do fine.
I did have to have one boot of the harlick's pair rebuilt, but that's just part of the game of buying full customs. If you're lucky they will fit perfectly, but skate building is not a science of precision, it's an art of technique. If I ever have to have a new pair of boots, I'll go in expecting a small refit here and there.
I'll never be as close to a skate tech as I was to him and Joan. He said that another woman adult skater and I (out of the hundreds if not thousands of skaters he'd worked with) were the only two who were interested in fiddling with their equipment at a technical level. I was touched by that and owe a lot of my knowledge to him.
Okay, something I have direct experience with.
OP, it sounds like your feet weren't measured for width as well as length when you got both pairs. I'm a little baffled because your tech sounds at least somewhat competent. Not all wides are the same width. It's a very common error to keep sizing up boots to get a width that fit correctly. This is bad because you wind up with a boot that's too long for your foot. This is going to cause problems on a lot of skills. Figure skating boots have to fit your feet very precisely for length AND width.
Jacksons are fine. They are probably best suited to your duck feet.
You need semi custom boots. You are trying to get by on stock (regular) wide boots. Stock boots come in regular (A/B) and wide (C/D). I really hate that they went back to that ambigious sizing, they used come stock sized in A (narrow), B (regular), and C/D (wide). A stock C/D wide isn't going to cut it for you. You need to shell out more for boots that they can make some changes to (semi custom).
I am 48 and came back to skating last year, skated as a teenager. I have very flat feet. I was measured by an experienced tech (who's also my region's Jackson rep) for width and length. I am a size 6 EE in Jackson. (Jackson has widths in AAA, AA, A, B, C, D, E, EE, and EEE, but only those middle ones are mass produced enough to be sold at regular retail prices). I had to pay for a boot to be constructed in an extra wide. I also had to pay for a custom wide tongue.
Another thing I did *not* pay to get but would next time around, is a lower heel. Jackson has about the highest heel out there. Compare it to a Riedell, which I previously skated on. A lower heel will help you not pitch forward so much. And **IMPORTANT FOR YOU** I also have also had foot pain the entire time, some times worse than others. After talking to a Jackson rep for a couple of hours, I was told that the last that they make the boots on now (the elite last) may just be too narrow and uncomfortable for me. If I opt to get new boots, I can request they be made on the older last which was a bit wider.
Jackson also has split width sizing - normally the heel is one width narrower than the ball. If your heel is narrower than that, you can pay extra to make it the correct width.
As far as I know, Jackson is the only one that offers so many options that you can order, that would be added as a la carte pricing. I have the low cut Debut Fusions. The retail when I got them a year ago was $320, my price after the custom add ons was $450. Just for the boot.
But the first thing you need is to find someone that can measure your feet properly, for width, and the heels too.
ETA: The sizing chart on Kinzie's closet only goes up to the D width, but they do have 3 more widths after that. Your tech should have the info from Jackson.
Quote from: MCsAngel2 on July 09, 2020, 09:08:08 PM
But the first thing you need is to find someone that can measure your feet properly, for width, and the heels too.
This is always good advice.
Quote from: MCsAngel2 on July 09, 2020, 09:08:08 PM
Jacksons are fine. They are probably best suited to your duck feet.
This seems very confused. That's not Aspenonice's problem.
I don't agree with all the pro-Jackson advice here. I had two pairs of Jacksons. Neither fit my feet (heel way too wide, forefoot fit correctly) and both wore out extremely fast.
Questions:
- Does the pain get worse when you stand still in your skates?
- Does the pain go away immediately when you take the skates off?
I have messaged Jackson again on FB to see if they will recommend me a fitter somewhere on the east coast. If I'm going semi custom, I agree that I need someone with more skill to have a chance at getting a better fit.
For now, I am experimenting with new lacing. I haven't gotten on ice with them tied this way yet, but I wore them around the house with thick socks and no sole and they feel a lot better. I'll just have to find a thiner replacement sole that works with the lacing.
Edit: the tongue pops out of the boot in the sections without crisscrossed laces.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200710/da38280d1c3c496b55ba652287af102c.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200710/387a5fa654c6b74c7709a580f6af09cf.jpg)
Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk
Quote from: nicklaszlo on July 09, 2020, 10:02:29 PM
Questions:
- Does the pain get worse when you stand still in your skates?
- Does the pain go away immediately when you take the skates off?
The pain feel worse while standing still, but I'm not sure if it is worse or if it's just more distracting because I'm not focused on anything else. I generally hate standing still because it hurts so much, but if I'm moving I'm at least focuses on anything but my feet.
The pain takes a while to wear off after I take my skates off. Usually 5 mins or less, less time if I put on regular shoes and walk around a bit. If it's really bad I have to get off the ice to take them off and stretch my feet to stop the cramping (this is usually only if I tie them too tight).
Edit: rephrased my answer to the first question.
Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk
QuoteI don't agree with all the pro-Jackson advice here. I had two pairs of Jacksons. Neither fit my feet (heel way too wide, forefoot fit correctly) and both wore out extremely fast.
But Jackson also has the ability to make the heel size more than one width narrower than the forefoot, you just have to pay extra for it. I have not heard of this option being available with any other boot maker.
This is also why it's so important to have your heels measured along with the rest of the foot, so you know what your correct heel width is.
Quote from: AspenonIce on July 09, 2020, 10:16:17 PM
The pain feel worse while standing still, but I'm not sure if it is worse or if it's just more distracting because I'm not focused on anything else. I generally hate standing still because it hurts so much, but if I'm moving I'm at least focuses on anything but my feet.
The pain takes a while to wear off after I take my skates off. Usually 5 mins or less, less time if I put on regular shoes and walk around a bit. If it's really bad I have to get off the ice to take them off and stretch my feet to stop the cramping (this is usually only if I tie them too tight).
Edit: rephrased my answer to the first question.
Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk
The tongue pops out if not laced in?? What does the top of the boot look like when it's laced up - can you see your leg in between the tongue and the sides of the boot?
That, and the fact that you describe the pain as cramping (in the arch?) are huge indicators that your skates are too narrow for your feet.
By the way, you should be wearing the absolute thinnest socks, or tights you can, or nothing at all. Thick socks are a no no.
ETA: Are you actually wearing the skates in the pictures above?
One more thing: If you go get sized and the ladies' sizes don't come wide enough for your proper size, you can order a men's boot, made in white. Pretty sure that's going to be a full custom order though, somewhere around $1000. Men's boots are wider than ladies'. Just try to find an experienced fitter, any that you visit, make sure to ask if they have experience in measuring adult's wide feet, that will likely have to be semi custom special ordered.
Quote from: MCsAngel2 on July 09, 2020, 11:40:24 PM
The tongue pops out if not laced in?? What does the top of the boot look like when it's laced up - can you see your leg in between the tongue and the sides of the boot?
That, and the fact that you describe the pain as cramping (in the arch?) are huge indicators that your skates are too narrow for your feet.
By the way, you should be wearing the absolute thinnest socks, or tights you can, or nothing at all. Thick socks are a no no.
ETA: Are you actually wearing the skates in the pictures above?
I put on the thick socks to help make any pain more obvious. I have a hard time feeling painful spots in fittings, possibly because I only have the boots on for a short period, so the thicker socks helps to highlight where things aren't fitting. Otherwise, I can only tell after having skated in them.
Yes I have the skates on in the pictures.
The tongue gaping is no longer there with skating socks on instead of the thick ones.
The tongue fits around my ankles and tuck into the boots.(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200710/266c4bf5a055d301737904703dce6664.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200710/baf06cb6fe18fa9432d3941ef94a73e7.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200710/dedff72dd8f3c859bd9ffcb4079f3738.jpg)
Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk
If the tongues pop out then you need wider than normal boot tongues. You can custom order them from Harlicks. I tried to do it with Jacksons but not even Mike could solve that conundrom with Jacksons doing it when I tried to get new skates from them.
And I'm not sure why you're wearing thick socks. That's only making the problem worse.
Quote from: MCsAngel2 on July 09, 2020, 11:35:39 PM
But Jackson also has the ability to make the heel size more than one width narrower than the forefoot, you just have to pay extra for it. I have not heard of this option being available with any other boot maker.
This is also why it's so important to have your heels measured along with the rest of the foot, so you know what your correct heel width is.
Riedell does offer this for their semi-custom and custom boots. I have semi-customs with them specifically because of my own duck feet. I'm in C/AAA.
Quote from: AspenonIce on July 09, 2020, 10:10:32 PM
I have messaged Jackson again on FB to see if they will recommend me a fitter somewhere on the east coast. If I'm going semi custom, I agree that I need someone with more skill to have a chance at getting a better fit.
I've found from personal experience that a fitter recommended by Jackson is not necessarily competent. You said somewhere on the East Coast. If you're willing to come to New Jersey, PM me, and I'll refer you to a first-rate fitter (multiple lines, but he's partial to Jackson for skaters with the appropriate feet).
I should have explained about the thick socks earlier! Sorry about that. I only wear trouser/skating socks while skating.
I put on the thick socks to help make any painful spots more obvious. I have a hard time feeling them during fittings, which is possibly because I have the boots on for such a short time and only move around a little in them, so the thicker socks helps to highlight where things aren't fitting. Otherwise, I can only tell after having skated in them, which is part of why I'm in this predicament as I couldn't tell what was going to be a problem while doing the fitting so the fitter didn't have enough feedback to know that I needed something else before I paid for the new boots. I've gotten better a trying to identify problem areas, but it's a work in progress and the thick socks are helping me figure out possible modifications to try once I am on the ice again.
Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk
You must be truly dedicated to skate with pain for so long!
Most custom skate manufacturers provide a money back guarantee on fit, if you call soon enough. I don't know if Jackson currently does, or whether either of your prior two attempts were customs - but it is worth talking to them to see if they are willing to do anything. You could also talk to your current fitter to see whether he is willing to make good in any way. Those might be your first options, before modifying your boots, because modification might invalidate any such warranty. Given your prior problems, and the amount of money and pain you have put into this, it might be worthwhile asking each manufacturer whether they are willing to guarantee good fit, before ordering another pair. And in your place, I would go to the factory store, or to one of the travelling factory fitters the company sends.
For what it is worth, though this was years ago, Mike once told me that Harlick full customs were more customized than than Jackson full customs. He sold both brands, among others.
Incidentally, every custom skate maker has skaters who are most happy with them. No one skate maker seems to make everyone happy. I don't know why that is. E.g., some people on this board have been happy with Avanta (which inherited a lot of Klingbeil's bootmaking staff), who, if you go to the factory, can have their own staff podiatrist look at your feet. They often make casts of your feet. I don't know whether they merely take measurements from those casts, or they actually create new full custom lasts from that cast, but it at least sounds like a great way to go. (I also don't know whether they still have the custom last-making lathe Klingbeil sometimes used.) They are also willing to work from casts made by your local podiatrist.
I wonder if you could still call and/or email Mike and get suggestions on who to go to.
Quote from: AspenonIce on July 08, 2020, 10:59:37 PM
1. I have skated without the insoles before and I hated the way it felt/it didn't really relieve the pain, just delayed the onset a bit. But I'll definitely try again now that something has been done to them. (I had actually bought cheap insoles from Target to try this, but talked myself out of it since the pain hasn't changed at all.)
It sounds like you have already tried just about everything easy. It is quite possible that boot modification won't be enough.
But precisely what didn't work about taking out the insoles and skating sockless? Did it still pinch? If not, you maybe can reshape those cheap Target insoles, with tape, to get what you want, or cut new insoles out of foam, to fit the 3D shape of your feet.
If it still pinches, after the best Jackson can do, as well as removing or changing insoles and skating without socks, you could always try Agnes's destructive suggestion
http://icedoesntcare.blogspot.com/2013/08/surgical-intervention-on-figure-skating.html
though that would be scary to me, because it is non-reversible. At a guess, it would tremendously reduce the boot lifetime, because the cuts would continue to tear - but it seems to me that they already have a lifetime, for you, of near zero. Maybe you could put something over the slits that would hide the cuts. I'm not sure if anything could stop them from continuing to tear. Perhaps someone here who knows more about adhesives could suggest something.
Some Cabin John rink freestyle skaters told me they go to a skate tech who works at the Ashburn, VA rink. But they didn't know the tech's name. It might or might not be the same person who works at Fairfax - but bear in mind, you probably want the person in charge, not just someone who works at the shop. That's true at almost any shop.
I asked Mike once about a Chicago area skate tech, John Harmata, and he said he was top notch, and did the same types of things he did. But he is a long ways away
I think there is supposed to be a good skate tech near the University of Delaware, but am not sure, and didn't manage to find the name. Since that University has a High Performance Figure Skating Center (https://bluehens.com/news/2018/4/26/211713325.aspx?path=cerena) and frequently publishes articles on figure skating performance and medical issues, someone there might know.
Based on your pictures, I'm not certain, but it is possible that just tracing your feet, and/or getting foam foot impressions, won't be enough, because it is possible you have somewhat higher volume lower legs and upper feet than most skate companies assume, which is part of the reason you need a wider tongue. For that you need a top notch fitter - and preferably the factory store, as mentioned. I have a little of this problem - I don't need extra wide tongues, but need to center mine carefully, and to use laces longer than the boot maker provided.
BTW, for medical problems, I saw Mike refer people to a Baltimore area Dr Paul Meissner (http://www.superpages.com/bp/Cockeysville-MD/Meissner-Paul-J-Jr-Dr-L0004733847.htm?C=podiatrist&N=meissner&lbp=1) and I think to a Delaware area DPM, Dr. Jonathon P. Contompasis (http://www.brandywinepodiatry.com/doctors-bio/jonathancontompasisdpm.html), both of whom have helped a lot of skaters. I didn't go to either, but I've met about a dozen local skaters who were misfit by the same skate tech I was, who were happier after seeing Dr. Meissner, and a lot of the other skate shops refer people to him too.
I wish I could give you a magic solution to your problems.
Quote from: AspenonIce on July 09, 2020, 10:16:17 PM
The pain feel worse while standing still, but I'm not sure if it is worse or if it's just more distracting because I'm not focused on anything else. I generally hate standing still because it hurts so much, but if I'm moving I'm at least focuses on anything but my feet.
The pain takes a while to wear off after I take my skates off. Usually 5 mins or less, less time if I put on regular shoes and walk around a bit. If it's really bad I have to get off the ice to take them off and stretch my feet to stop the cramping (this is usually only if I tie them too tight).
My theory is that the pain in your feet is not caused by the boot at the location of the pain. Instead, somewhere else the boot is blocking blood circulation in your foot. When you move around, blood is forced around the block, so the pain decreases. When you stand still the blood cannot circulate and it hurts more. When you take the skates off, circulation resumes. This should take less than five minutes.
Any skater will feel this pain if their skates are laced too tight.
Most other kinds of problems will take more than five minutes to stop hurting after you remove your boots.
Unfortunately my theory does not really tell you what to do to fix the problem. You can try:
* Skating a lot more vigorously to push the blood around in your feet, if your skating ability allows you to do this with control. We should all do this anyway.
* Lace the lower part of your boot somewhat loosely, knot the laces below the uppers, and lace the uppers normally. I do this, but mostly because I like my uppers tied very tight.
* Have someone with the right tool stretch your boot. I have not tried that.
Quote from: nicklaszlo on July 11, 2020, 01:31:18 AM
My theory is that the pain in your feet is not caused by the boot at the location of the pain...
Have someone with the right tool stretch your boot. I have not tried that.
It is hard to imagine that any skate shop would have better tools than Jackson itself, which she already tried - unless you are right, and they stretched the wrong part of the boot.
If you are right, how would you suggest she determine what part of the boot to stretch?
I personally can feel where my boots are tightest - but if she can't (AspenonIce: can you feel where?), I can't think of an easy way.
AspenonIce: you also never answered about what you found uncomfortable about taking out the insoles and taking off the socks. Does it still pinch? If it doesn't, there is a good chance things can be fixed.
There is a leather shop in Laurel, MD
https://www.mdoutbackleather.com
Because they make custom leather boots and saddles for horse jockeys, they just might have the tools, and the knowledge to diagnose the problem. But I hesitate to recommend them. My only experience with them is that I went to them a few years back to see if they could rebuild my old boots. The lady there said no - maybe because their service is more expensive than custom skates? Or because skates use thicker and stiffer materials than riding boots?
Anyway, they are almost as far away from her as Ashburn, or one of the top podiatrists, and might not be able to help. She could call to ask...
I still think going to Jackson could help. They have a foot shape scanner:
https://jacksonultima.com/pages/scanner-technology
which might help. However, they don't list any intended visits after last April, so one would have to call to see if they are doing that, post pandemic.
Quote from: Query on July 11, 2020, 09:10:42 PM
It is hard to imagine that any skate shop would have better tools than Jackson itself, which she already tried -
Sorry, I missed that.
Quote from: Query on July 11, 2020, 09:10:42 PM
I personally can feel where my boots are tightest - but if she can't (AspenonIce: can you feel where?), I can't think of an easy way.
AspenonIce: you also never answered about what you found uncomfortable about taking out the insoles and taking off the socks. Does it still pinch? If it doesn't, there is a good chance things can be fixed.
With the thick socks on I could feel the side of the boot squeezing the ball of my foot. The boot, at least with the standard foodbed in it, is too narrow for my feet.
I hate skating with the sole out as it hurts to stand on the metal plate on the heel. Also, the sole of the boot is just really hard so it's uncomfortable to stand on.
I think I also had less control of the skate when I tried before. It at least felt weird to the muscles in my feet and I couldn't do anything but skate forward without falling (and I already fall a ton).
I did get the cheap Target insoles and have put them in, I just need to test them out now. (I only skate 2 days a week to limit my exposure)
As far as not wearing socks at all, that's not preferred as I have really sweaty feet. Any shoe that I've worn around with no socks quickly becomes horribly smelly. I'm really anal about it now and always wear socks with shoes.
Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk
AspenonIce.
If sweaty feet are the issue, then what you can try is double knee highs. I've found that a pair of micro-fiber knee highs (2 on each foot) deal with that pretty well (YMMV) and still let you have thin socks on. If you try this out, make sure they're made of microfiber. You can find white ones online if you root around a bit. If you have skating knee highs from mondor just try two on each foot no matter what color to see if it works. (I think the knee highs in stores are nylon, but those from HUE, L'eggs, Hanes, and Mondor are all microfiber. I also look for those that are 'opaque' because they're slighty thicker)
Personal Rant: I can buy really good skating knee highs in pink, purple, Turquoise, nude - various shades of tan from dark to light-, but NO ONE Makes THEM IN WHITE! Dear God Mondor what's wrong with white so we can fold them over the top of the boots!! (Not that I'm fussy. I've skated with different colors on each boot and folded over to corral my laces)
I still really feel that the issue is that you need a (much?) wider width than the standard wide you've been trying. In the pictures you posted - the sides of your boot are supposed to wrap over the sides of the tongue, all the way up, and the top half of your tongue is not covered at all. I can only imagine how narrow the footbeds are on your feet. And I'm also amazed you've been skating that way for about three years, that's dedication.
By the way, it's normal to not notice pain or fit issues until you're on the ice. Same thing seems to be true for people (like me) with pronation issues. It means there's a lot of back and forth from the shop to the ice and back again, but it isn't just you. I don't know that extra socks will solve the problem.
Anyway, I don't want to beat a dead horse, but if you can commit to spending the money on semi or full custom boots, making note of the kinds of things you can ask for that I mentioned previously, and finding a tech that is experienced in measuring and ordering semi/full customs, I think that would solve your problem.
Quote from: AspenonIce on July 08, 2020, 08:33:46 PM
Had to add this seperately for some reason.
Does this mean it's just that the length is too long for my foot? Or should I get the blade mounted further back? While the 5.5s were the exact same length of the blade, the 6s are mounted with the blade all the way to the front with about 1/4 of an inch left over on the heel. I'm really not sure how much of a difference this makes.
Any advice?
I missed this before, from some reason. Are you wearing the same blades on the 6 that you were on the 5.5? Who recommended that/said it was okay? Jackson's blade size chart says a 5.5 size boot should have a 9 inch blade, and a 6 size boot should have a 9 1/4 inch blade.
Quote from: MCsAngel2 on July 12, 2020, 12:20:46 PM
I missed this before, from some reason. Are you wearing the same blades on the 6 that you were on the 5.5? Who recommended that/said it was okay? Jackson's blade size chart says a 5.5 size boot should have a 9 inch blade, and a 6 size boot should have a 9 1/4 inch blade.
The fitter in Fairfax fit my 5.5s with the 9 1/4 blade. So when I switched to the 6s, the rink owner just moved them over. I had no idea that the 9 1/4 was too long for the 5.5s! I remember it being a huge change from the 9 3/4 on my Opals and it's was supposed to be even shorter??
Your Opal blades were longer because Riedell's heel is shorter (which makes the sole length longer). The higher heeled boots like Jackson and Edea take shorter blades. It does sound like they were mounted correctly, though, being flush with the toe in front.
Quote from: AgnesNitt on July 12, 2020, 08:30:14 AM
AspenonIce.
If sweaty feet are the issue, then what you can try is double knee highs. I've found that a pair of micro-fiber knee highs (2 on each foot) deal with that pretty well (YMMV) and still let you have thin socks on. If you try this out, make sure they're made of microfiber. You can find white ones online if you root around a bit. If you have skating knee highs from mondor just try two on each foot no matter what color to see if it works. (I think the knee highs in stores are nylon, but those from HUE, L'eggs, Hanes, and Mondor are all microfiber. I also look for those that are 'opaque' because they're slighty thicker)
Personal Rant: I can buy really good skating knee highs in pink, purple, Turquoise, nude - various shades of tan from dark to light-, but NO ONE Makes THEM IN WHITE! Dear God Mondor what's wrong with white so we can fold them over the top of the boots!! (Not that I'm fussy. I've skated with different colors on each boot and folded over to corral my laces)
Thanks for the advice! The one pair of skating socks usually does enough for me, especially since I throw charcoal sacks in my boots right after I take them off. But I will remember this when my skating time increases (back when I first started I was skating 4-5 hours a week, but that's much harder here as I don't have 4 rinks in close proximity anymore and I'm no longer in college. I also do other activities that take up that time) and my stinky feet have a chance to really set in.
Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk
Quote from: MCsAngel2 on July 12, 2020, 12:09:50 PM
I still really feel that the issue is that you need a (much?) wider width than the standard wide you've been trying. In the pictures you posted - the sides of your boot are supposed to wrap over the sides of the tongue, all the way up, and the top half of your tongue is not covered at all. I can only imagine how narrow the footbeds are on your feet. And I'm also amazed you've been skating that way for about three years, that's dedication.
By the way, it's normal to not notice pain or fit issues until you're on the ice. Same thing seems to be true for people (like me) with pronation issues. It means there's a lot of back and forth from the shop to the ice and back again, but it isn't just you. I don't know that extra socks will solve the problem.
Anyway, I don't want to beat a dead horse, but if you can commit to spending the money on semi or full custom boots, making note of the kinds of things you can ask for that I mentioned previously, and finding a tech that is experienced in measuring and ordering semi/full customs, I think that would solve your problem.
I just really like skating! The pain is definitely annoying, but getting to be on the ice is worth it. (Kinda wish I had figured that out earlier, maybe I wouldn't have had to run track as a kid
BTW, I'm not medically trained, and base what I say on my own experience and other people's feedback.
I sent Mike's store an email. They replied automatically:
Quote
We are going to close the shop and retire on March 15, 2020. We are no longer taking orders for new equipment. Please check with Fairfax Ice or Medstar Capital Iceplex for skate fittings.
So I was probably wrong when I remembered that those freestyle skaters at Cabin John said they went to Ashburn. They probably said Fairfax, and the person you saw is probably the best in the area. My bad!
It is hard to believe such a person made such a fundamental error as measuring the foot too thin! There are a few other errors I can think of:
1. I already mentioned that raising the arch, by putting tape under the insole there, might (or might not!) help. Of course if you take that too far, that would hurt too.
2. Sometimes boot makers make mistakes, and make the boot(s) wrong. While I watched Mike work, there were a few cases like that.
3. While I watched Mike work, there was a case where a custom boot maker decided the change of measurement from a prior pair of boots to the current one was too great, and without asking, went back to the prior measurements. I found that almost impossible to believe, but you could call Jackson and ask whether that happened.
4. You mention the pain is at the ball of the foot, by which I assume you mean the position along your foot where the foot can easily bend upwards somewhat without breaking or over-stretching anything. Most boots bend upwards near where they
guess the ball of your foot is - possibly in order to make your feet less likely to slip forwards. If they guess wrong, or bend it too much, that can injure your feet. If I thought I might be slightly injured that way, I might GENTLY try bending my bare feet where the boots tries to bend them, and look for pain - but it's your choice whether to risk that. (You are risking it every time you put your feet in the boots.) If it does hurt like that in bent bare feet, see a good podiatrist. Perhaps you should see one anyway - but when I checked, a podiatrist wanted about $400 for an initial appointment!
5. This is probably completely off base, but it was true for me: if the bottoms of your boots and the insoles on them don't match the left/right tilt of your feet, so that there is unequal pressure on the two sides of each foot when you relax, you may be compensating by using muscles to make them touch equally, so you can control the edging of your blades. Eventually, muscle overuse makes those muscles sore. It takes at least a few minutes for the soreness to occur. Once again, tape placed in appropriate places under the insoles can equalize pressure everywhere.
Quote from: AspenonIce on July 12, 2020, 01:56:10 AM
I hate skating with the sole out as it hurts to stand on the metal plate on the heel...
I did get the cheap Target insoles and have put them in, I just need to test them out now.
You might need
a lot of experiments to get things right. So you could try first cutting a thin piece of cheap cardboard to shape. If that sort of works, then make adjustments: If the heel is loose, you cut it wider than the original insole there, so it wraps around your heel. Then you might want to try sticking layers of athletic tape (cloth first aid tape or coach tape is pretty durable, and doesn't change shape too quickly) in places on your home-made insole, like under the arch, to make things more comfortable. That might or might not make things better. Of course, it is possible to go too far, to the point where an extra high arch hurts too. Trial and error.
I personally try to create equal pressure on all parts of the foot, except that I try to keep pressure off the front and sides of the toes, and above the ankle, I leave enough space ahead and behind the leg so I can point and flex my ankles. As with everything, not everyone agrees exactly what to do.
But I still have no idea what to do about Nick's idea that you might actually be too tight, and cutting off circulation, somewhere other than the point where it actually hurts. If you can't trust what you feel, so you can't look for high pressure points. Some people have very poor circulation in their feet, and loose circulation easily, and/or cannot feel high pressure points on their feet. I hope that doesn't apply to you! I have diabetes, which sometimes causes that, and am worried that condition will occur. I have no idea whether compression socks would help.
I do hope you find a solution.
Mike sent me a separate note:
QuoteI've been sending folks to Fairfax Ice Arena or the rink at the University of Delaware. We are closed/retired.
So apparently, the pro shop at the University of Delaware has another world class skate tech. That's 3.5 hours from Tidewater, which is further than Fairfax. But, depending where you are thinking of driving in New York, it might be approximately along the way. The University, if I remember right, is close to Interstate route 95.
However, since you've already gone to Fairfax, it is quite possible that no "ordinary" world class skate tech is good enough, and you might be better off making an appoint at the factory store, where you can possibly be fit by one of the people who make their boots. Unfortunately, they are further away.
Quote from: Query on July 14, 2020, 06:29:55 PM
However, since you've already gone to Fairfax, it is quite possible that no "ordinary" world class skate tech is good enough, and you might be better off making an appoint at the factory store, where you can possibly be fit by one of the people who make their boots. Unfortunately, they are further away.
I actually had planned to do this myself, at Jackson (if I had decided to go with them for my next order/customs), and the Jackson rep I spent so long talking to on Facebook that one time told me they don't have in person fittings at the factory in Ontario. I rather suspect they *do* for the world class elite skaters, but for everyone else, if you want semi or full custom from them, they have to be measured and ordered by one of their preferred dealers.
I don't know at Jackson's, but Harlicks used to sent a fitter to (believe it or not) to roller competitions. If it wasn't for the pandemic, that might be an option when the competitions open up for Jackson's.
PS I'm sorry so many skate companies have disappeared in the last 4 years. But they're almost all family businesses, anybody old enough to remember Oberhammers's?
I wish Klingbeil was still around in NYC.
I guess, as long as Jackson says they offer a money-back guarantee, if you get custom skates through one of their favored fitters (did you ask?), it doesn't matter all that much if the fit isn't at the factory itself.
The skate tech Mike recommends at Fairfax is "Marlon". Is that who you saw?
He also recommends M F Sherman at the University of Delaware.
Quote from: Query on July 15, 2020, 04:22:54 PM
I wish Klingbeil was still around in NYC.
I guess, as long as Jackson says they offer a money-back guarantee, if you get custom skates through one of their favored fitters (did you ask?), it doesn't matter all that much if the fit isn't at the factory itself.
The skate tech Mike recommends at Fairfax is "Marlon". Is that who you saw?
He also recommends M F Sherman at the University of Delaware.
Yes I saw Marlon.
I did not get a response from Jackson on FB yet.
Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk
Do you have high arches or flat feet? Have you taken the insole out and stood on it to see if it is too narrow for your foot?
Quote from: AspenonIce on July 17, 2020, 09:29:05 AM
Yes I saw Marlon.
I did not get a response from Jackson on FB yet.
Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk
Try contacting Mark Ladwig on FB. He reps Jackson and fitted my first pair semi-custom Premieres for duck feet. Great guy!
Quote from: Christy on July 19, 2020, 03:08:27 PM
Do you have high arches or flat feet? Have you taken the insole out and stood on it to see if it is too narrow for your foot?
My feet hang over the insole maybe a 1/4".
And I have collapsing arches. They look normal until I stand on them and then they're close flat.
Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk
I have found a temporary solution for the moment while I weigh my options on who to talk to and where to go.
I've skated twice with thin, cheap Target insoles and the new lacing pattern I posted a picture of and I can skate for much longer than I used to before the pain starts (maybe 15-20 mins now instead of 10 or less). And the pain seems more like I'm lacking arch support rather than the sides of my foot being squeezed together. My heels also hurt as the metal plate under them can still be felt, but this is a definite improvement! I'll have to try the riedell footbed soon and see if that can minimize the arch pain.
Thank you all so much for the advice! It's been very helpful so far.
Unfortunately, as afar as seeing someone to help me get new skates, it seems like it will have to wait a while until the situation calms down a little and 14 day quarantines aren't required when traveling between some states.
Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk
I'm quite puzzled that Jackson no longer provides a telephone contact, or even a chat portal, on their web page.
I would hesitate to order custom skates from anyone who doesn't, because customer service is often so important to people who need them.
Quote from: AspenonIce on July 21, 2020, 07:44:09 PM
And the pain seems more like I'm lacking arch support rather than the sides of my foot being squeezed together...
My heels also hurt as the metal plate under them can still be felt
Arch support is easy to add - take athletic tape (coach tape), and put it underneath the part of the arches where you feel a lack of support.
You could try adding extra tape underneath the part of the insoles that is under the heels. I know this will sound strange, but if the cheap insoles let you feel the plate, you could also try replacing them by a layer or two of thin card stock, cut to the same perimeter as the cheap insoles, because it is stiffer - though it probably won't last forever. You could also try cheap thin Leatherette from a fabric store. Leatherette doesn't breath, so probably isn't great in the long run, but if it works, leather would feel about the same, and breathes.
But you shouldn't need to do these things yourself. If Marlon is as good as supposed to be, should have been able to fix this - you did go back there, or call Marlon, to ask about it, right?
Nonetheless, the things I suggested are are worth a try, and are easy to do. I guess it is possible that no one person understands all possible problems, and you may have to figure out for yourself what will work for your boots and feet.
Quote from: Query on September 08, 2020, 01:36:23 AM
I'm quite puzzled that Jackson no longer provides a telephone contact, or even a chat portal, on their web page.
I would hesitate to order custom skates from anyone who doesn't, because customer service is often so important to people who need them.
Arch support is easy to add - take athletic tape (coach tape), and put it underneath the part of the arches where you feel a lack of support.
You could try adding extra tape underneath the part of the insoles that is under the heels. I know this will sound strange, but if the cheap insoles let you feel the plate, you could also try replacing them by a layer or two of thin card stock, cut to the same perimeter as the cheap insoles, because it is stiffer - though it probably won't last forever. You could also try cheap thin Leatherette from a fabric store. Leatherette doesn't breath, so probably isn't great in the long run, but if it works, leather would feel about the same, and breathes.
But you shouldn't need to do these things yourself. If Marlon is as good as supposed to be, should have been able to fix this - you did go back there, or call Marlon, to ask about it, right?
Nonetheless, the things I suggested are are worth a try, and are easy to do. I guess it is possible that no one person understands all possible problems, and you may have to figure out for yourself what will work for your boots and feet.
All my current mods are things I have done myself with no input from someone at my rink.
The owner of both the Fairfax and Hampton Roads rinks is the one who is helping me and he called Marlon back when I was still in the 5.5s. So when Henry took over, he had discussed something with Marlon about the fitting process. Right now a coach at the rink that used to fit Harlicks has also talked to me about my skates and we're back to square one. I think the current plan is to send foot tracings and see what at least Jackson says about what size boot I should have and maybe also another company. So basically, we started over.
Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk
I hope you aren't saying that you haven't seen Marlon yourself since getting these boots? Going through intermediaries isn't the same thing. E.g., if you talk in person, people are much more likely to offer you a refund, or a free or discounted fix.
Likewise, corresponding with Jackson itself, rather than intermediaries, even if you purchased the boots through an intermediary, makes them much more likely to offer you a refund, or a free or discounted fix.
If I were you, I would look up Jackson, and dig for a phone number to call. A very quick web search - dig yourself if this isn't still good, gives:
https://www.zoominfo.com/c/jackson-ultima-skates-inc/54482362
https://www.allbiz.ca/jackson-ultima-skates-inc-519-888-6500
I made the mistake of not talking directly to a boot manufacturer of a pair of misfit skate boots. (Another brand; and admittedly they were customs.) It turns out that if I had talked to the manufacturer directly in a timely fashion, and went where they asked, they would have made replacement boots for free.
If you haven't directly seen Marlon, and talked to Jackson, since the boots arrived, the longer you wait, the less likely they are to help.
Send them a message on their Facebook page, when I did this a year ago, Mark Ladwig was prompt in getting back to me and spent a long time on chat talking about my issues.
https://www.facebook.com/jacksonultima
Be aware that you won't get the same instant notification that you do for your friends, you'll have to open messenger and see if there are other pending messages.
Quote from: MCsAngel2 on September 09, 2020, 08:19:07 PM
Mark Ladwig was prompt in getting back to me and spent a long time on chat talking about my issues.
Is that the same Mark Ladwig who skated at the 2010 Olympics?
Quote from: Query on September 09, 2020, 09:18:22 PM
Is that the same Mark Ladwig who skated at the 2010 Olympics?
Yep, he works for Jackson now. He's also done a series of videos on Youtube about basic skate tech knowledge.
Quote from: Query on September 09, 2020, 07:19:25 PM
I hope you aren't saying that you haven't seen Marlon yourself since getting these boots? Going through intermediaries isn't the same thing. E.g., if you talk in person, people are much more likely to offer you a refund, or a free or discounted fix.
Likewise, corresponding with Jackson itself, rather than intermediaries, even if you purchased the boots through an intermediary, makes them much more likely to offer you a refund, or a free or discounted fix.
If I were you, I would look up Jackson, and dig for a phone number to call. A very quick web search - dig yourself if this isn't still good, gives:
https://www.zoominfo.com/c/jackson-ultima-skates-inc/54482362
https://www.allbiz.ca/jackson-ultima-skates-inc-519-888-6500
I made the mistake of not talking directly to a boot manufacturer of a pair of misfit skate boots. (Another brand; and admittedly they were customs.) It turns out that if I had talked to the manufacturer directly in a timely fashion, and went where they asked, they would have made replacement boots for free.
If you haven't directly seen Marlon, and talked to Jackson, since the boots arrived, the longer you wait, the less likely they are to help.
That is correct. I went to Henry first and he jumped in and took full responsibility for the situation even though Marlon was the original fitter.
I was able to get the second pair of boots for a discount after I was refitted.
I contacted Jackson first after the 6s didn't fix the problem and they contacted Henry themselves to find out what he was doing for me. From then on, all communication with Jackson was through him. He arranged to have my boots sent back to Jackson earlier this year and paid shipping. I'm still not sure what exactly was done to them, but they did it based on foot tracings that Henry took and sent to them. They either did industrial level stretching or rebuilt the boot, I'm not sure which and have been trying to find out so we know where to go. Although, my group coach still thinks I need a lower heeled boot so I need an entirely new pair of boots anyway.
Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk
Quote from: MCsAngel2 on September 09, 2020, 08:19:07 PM
Send them a message on their Facebook page, when I did this a year ago, Mark Ladwig was prompt in getting back to me and spent a long time on chat talking about my issues.
https://www.facebook.com/jacksonultima
Be aware that you won't get the same instant notification that you do for your friends, you'll have to open messenger and see if there are other pending messages.
I will attempt this to figure out what exactly was done to my boots so I can move on from there. I did not realize it didn't send notifications.
My last message was looking for another fitter on 7/9 and they didn't reply until 7/27.
Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk
I have emailed Mark with details of the situation and will see what he has to say!
Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk
You have so tried to do everything right! This must be so frustrating.
Why did you switch to Henry? Isn't Marlon the better known fitter?
I'm amazed that Jackson can afford Mark's help. With his skating record, maybe he could earn $80-$120/hour as a coach. https://www.zoominfo.com/c/jackson-ultima-skates-inc/54482362 claims Jackson only has $394,000 revenue.
Quote from: Query on September 10, 2020, 06:49:25 PM
I'm amazed that Jackson can afford Mark's help. With his skating record, maybe he could earn $80-$120/hour as a coach. https://www.zoominfo.com/c/jackson-ultima-skates-inc/54482362 claims Jackson only has $394,000 revenue.
Look more closely at that chart - their revenue has fallen off a cliff in 2020 for obvious reasons, but they posted $11M in revenue 4th quarter 2019. Jackson is a big dog, I'm sure they'll survive.
Quote from: Query on September 10, 2020, 06:49:25 PM
You have so tried to do everything right! This must be so frustrating.
Why did you switch to Henry? Isn't Marlon the better known fitter?
I was not aware of Marlon's status at the time.
I think the original plan was to just have the 5.5s stretched and to ask if the bruising on my big toes was normal and it turned into Henry helping me after talking to Marlon to get his input. If Henry hadn't jumped in, I probably would have gone back to Marlon to figure out what to do.
I'm sure there's something else I could have done that would have made this all easier. For sure, going back to the fitters in Buffalo, NY that saw my wide feet immediately would have been beneficial, but I didn't have the money before I graduated and left the state.
Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk
Quote from: AspenonIce on July 21, 2020, 07:35:34 PM
My feet hang over the insole maybe a 1/4".
And I have collapsing arches. They look normal until I stand on them and then they're close flat.
Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk
I assume you mean at the sides? How is the length?
Also have you tried having the skates heat molded? and if so were you wearing your skating socks or a thicker pair?
Quote from: Christy on September 17, 2020, 07:46:23 PM
I assume you mean at the sides? How is the length?
Also have you tried having the skates heat molded? and if so were you wearing your skating socks or a thicker pair?
Yes, over the sides. The length is fine.
They were heat molded when I first got them and I only wear skating tights to skate or for fittings.(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200918/6d74ae34724577c7bcec6d2b4485ab39.jpg)
Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk
Quote from: AspenonIce on September 17, 2020, 09:36:19 PM
Yes, over the sides. The length is fine.
Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk
They are too narrow. You need a semi custom with a wider width.
Wow, that's a big difference in width. You definitely need a wider boot, as even if you stretched the upper of the boot you'd have no support for your soles.
If I can get these boots to work at least until this virus is gone, I'll be happy and willing to pay whatever for a wider pair next time around.
Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk
Additionally, your insoles show that your skates are too long. Very common mistake to keep sizing up boots to get a fit when you need a wider width, but it will cause incorrect posture and it's not safe to do jumps on skates that are too big. You need at least another half size down, in addition to a proper measurement for width (why has the shop you're dealing with not measured you correctly for width yet?)
These pics show insole wear on boots that are too large and one that is correct. Although yours is better than the first example here, you can still see comparing to the correct example that yours are still too long.
https://ice.edeaskates.com/en/tech-info/what-is-my-size/how-can-i-check-if-i-have-the-right-size/
Also, read this page to see what issues are caused by not wearing the correct length boot - your arch won't line up with the boot, the ball of your foot won't be in the right place over the sweet spot on the blade for spins. Even just a half size.
https://ice.edeaskates.com/en/tech-info/what-is-my-size/foot-issues-caused-by-wrong-size/
I reread this thread and if I were you I would be pissed that they sized you up from a 5.5 to a 6 when that's clearly not the correct length, and that they did this to accomodate your width, continuing to put you in stock width boots. All your pictures show that it's very obvious that you need a custom width and the regular wide isn't going to cut it. What they've done is so unprofessional, I can't even, because they've put you in boots that are 1) still too narrow and 2) the wrong length which puts you at risk for injury if you try to do skills in them.
Jackson has their own sizing chart, including widths, and it doesn't sound like they've used it. I just can't believe they're a recommended fitter when they've done so many things incorrectly.
Quote from: MCsAngel2 on September 18, 2020, 06:39:33 PM
Additionally, your insoles show that your skates are too long. Very common mistake to keep sizing up boots to get a fit when you need a wider width, but it will cause incorrect posture and it's not safe to do jumps on skates that are too big. You need at least another half size down, in addition to a proper measurement for width (why has the shop you're dealing with not measured you correctly for width yet?)
These pics show insole wear on boots that are too large and one that is correct. Although yours is better than the first example here, you can still see comparing to the correct example that yours are still too long.
https://ice.edeaskates.com/en/tech-info/what-is-my-size/how-can-i-check-if-i-have-the-right-size/
My front toes were being bruised by the 5.5s. I wasn't attempting singles in those either, I can't fully remember, but I was probably only doing waltz jumps in those, if that. So just skating around was enough to bruise them.
That's part of why I was moved the the 6s, he thought it would be a win-win and I didn't know enough to try for a semi-custom at that point.
Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk
Quote from: AspenonIce on September 18, 2020, 08:15:40 PM
My front toes were being bruised by the 5.5s. I wasn't attempting singles in those either, I can't fully remember, but I was probably only doing waltz jumps in those, if that. So just skating around was enough to bruise them.
That's part of why I was moved the the 6s, he thought it would be a win-win and I didn't know enough to try for a semi-custom at that point.
Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk
They should have tried punching out the front of the 5.5s first. But the bigger issue is the width - based on these pictures I don't think it's possible to stretch them out enough.
Quote from: MCsAngel2 on September 18, 2020, 08:23:54 PM
They should have tried punching out the front of the 5.5s first. But the bigger issue is the width - based on these pictures I don't think it's possible to stretch them out enough.
That was never suggested.
But yes, it didn't matter much, neither fit correctly.
Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk
My skates have been sent to Mark. I will have to miss out on skating this week, but he will be modifying the heel to make it lower for me.
Hopefully this at least helps keep me more balanced on my blade and maybe will shift the weight distribution across my foot and help alleviate some pain.
Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk
I found that a plain felt insole helped with my foot pain in the balls of my feet. The arch support on the stock insoles of my new skates wasn't in the right place and my previous skates had had felt insoles, so I just moved them to my new skates. Craft felt is the same weight, not the thick felt insoles I have seen for sale. They also sell quite a few different types of arch support that can be custom placed, I used to use stick on arch support to put support in just the right place. It looks like now you can get sleeves with the arch support built in or different sizes and shapes of support.
Also, have you ever been to a chiropractor, my mom had her feet adjusted and foot pain that had bothered her for years went away and her balance improved.
Quote from: AspenonIce on September 17, 2020, 09:36:19 PM
Yes, over the sides. The length is fine.
They were heat molded when I first got them and I only wear skating tights to skate or for fittings.(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200918/6d74ae34724577c7bcec6d2b4485ab39.jpg)
Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk
These look like the overhang to the side my feet had in various iterations of stock boots. You also have that extra padding on the outside of the foot behind the ball that I have. I'm pretty sure that part was getting crushed when I was in the wrong skates, leading to similar pain you feel, pain that came on after a few minutes and would go away quickly if I took the skates off. (I had other troubles related to high arches and insteps, but the width in places stock boots don't account for didn't help.) Raising the arch does help some with getting the pressure off that part of the foot.
Jackson semi-customs (5A/C) didn't work for me. I got them because a stock Jackson 5B Premiere had worked okay, with lots of punching in the toes, skipping a hole over my arch, and bulking up the arch support with cut-out foam insoles, but they apparently changed their last between the two pairs and the new ones didn't work at all. I ended up going full custom with Avanta, which was able to accommodate that fat along the outside of the mid-foot, as well as all my other difficulties. If you think you may have a high volume foot (i.e., high instep), regular length/width measurement is almost never going to work well. Getting my feet plaster casted and the casts sent off to the bootmaker helped tremendously. Hopefully your problem is fixable with semi-custom Jacksons in the right width!
These are what my boots look like now. No pain reduction even though they have been punched out.
The shaved off heels has helped a lot with keeping me where I'm supposed to be on my blades! I'm finally starting to figure out how to spin correctly now and it's great! I managed to just pass into ISI Freestyle 3 recently.
I think my plan is to go back to the Fairfax arena and have Marlon fit me for semi custom boots. I definitely need a non fusion sole as the heel height is too much for me and probably an E or EE width toe.(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210513/4503d6dc87049534965d0118a1b1580d.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210513/90a6a88799a33e2cff53e5ab94457df3.jpg)
Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk
Boy, it seems like over the last year I'm hearing more and more complaints about issues with Jackson's 2000 line. The Duraguard is a bust, no one I know likes it, and a bunch of people are opting to get other brands instead of anything in the 2000 line. The men's boots are awful looking, and the latest I heard about the plastic covering over the women's boots is that it YELLOWS after a few months! Glad I bought my Debuts before they started using it, I wouldn't buy them now.
I have heard about the change of the last they use for them, I know the current last is much more snug than what they used to have. It's been an issue for me but didn't realize it's been a problem for other people too.
Then there's the fusion sole. I know they used to be LCL before. I know LOTS of people who hate the fusion sole, specifically the heel. Something about the height or pitch is too much, it's much more exaggerated than the old heel used to be.
Mark, if you or anyone else from Jackson is reading this, please try to convince TPTB that they are going in the wrong direction with changes to the 2000 line. They're going to start seeing reduced sales because of it.
The only change that seems negligible is making the boot from microfiber instead of leather. But boy, every other update to that line seems to be really unpopular. I notice that none of those updates have made it to the 5000 series, hmm.
Quote from: MCsAngel2 on May 14, 2021, 12:18:58 AM
Mark, if you or anyone else from Jackson is reading this, please try to convince TPTB that they are going in the wrong direction with changes to the 2000 line. They're going to start seeing reduced sales because of it.
If you want to provide feedback to Jackson, I suggest you contact them directly ... rather than hoping they monitor skating forums. Whether they pay heed to you or not is a different story.
Quote from: MCsAngel2 on May 14, 2021, 12:18:58 AM
Boy, it seems like over the last year I'm hearing more and more complaints about issues with Jackson's 2000 line. The Duraguard is a bust, no one I know likes it, and a bunch of people are opting to get other brands instead of anything in the 2000 line. The men's boots are awful looking, and the latest I heard about the plastic covering over the women's boots is that it YELLOWS after a few months! Glad I bought my Debuts before they started using it, I wouldn't buy them now.
I have heard about the change of the last they use for them, I know the current last is much more snug than what they used to have. It's been an issue for me but didn't realize it's been a problem for other people too.
It's validating to hear that other people have had issues with these boots. After what I've gone through with them, I guess I'm not too surprised these have been a bust in general.
I think when I go up to see Marlon, we will have to have a discussion on what type of boot to get and if I need to switch manufacturers to get a better fit for me. My Riedell Opals were too long and too narrow, but I think everything else about them worked for me (Maybe this is revisionist history or wishful thinking, but I'm 0-2 with Jackson and only 0-1 with Riedell). Or maybe I should just skip it and go for Harlicks. Do you have to go to California to be fitted for those or will they work with you through a local fitter?
Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk
Three skaters I know just switched from Jacksons to Risports, mostly due to the Fusion heel pitch. I told Mark @ Jackson about the issue at Nationals and he stated that it wasn't an issue, yet two of my skaters were pitched forward like they were skiing while wearing those skates.
The Risport frontal support isn't as strong as Jacksons, but using the Edea lacing/tying method helps a lot.
One note on the Risports: the lower-end boots have inside seams on both sides of the heel backstrap and the padding wears out really fast if the skate's tight-fitting.
So sorry to hear about your boot problems!
I was able to be fitted for Harlicks without going to California. They have a pretty good sheet for cueing you about where to measure, so if you have a dealer to work with, it should be fine. Since then, I've measured several other local skaters for Harlicks and so far, all of us are very happy with our boots. I'm on my third pair (I usually get about 5 years out of a pair and they are still usable as teaching skates or pond skates at that point) and expect to stick with them for as long as I am skating. Each time I make a few subtle changes that improve the fit and performance, which is great.
The custom insoles/foot beds are expensive, but for me they are worth every penny at twice the price. My foot sits so much more solidly on the sole of the boot than in my previous Jackson's and Riedells. Without the custom insole, my foot never felt laterally stable (in spite of using Superfeet insoles in the previous skates) and now I stand on a surface with a perfectly matched contour.
You may fit in the Harlick X-Line, which has the narrower heel/wider forefoot, or maybe you need something more custom than that. There are so many variables—arch height, instep height, foot rigidity, foot volume, calf muscle attachment point and bulk...heel and ball width are just the starting point of a good fit.
Comments about boots...a little rambling but possibly useful?
My understanding is that Risport has a similar shape to the X-Line, so a few of our local skaters have tried them and seem reasonably happy.
My experience with Riedell is they were built like canoes, long and slim. Too wide in the heel and a little pinchy at the toes for me. Jacksons were just too wide overall, but that was the older last from 2004. The newer models seem narrower, but skaters with wider feet can order the wider size so we have a lot of skaters in various Jackson boots in a wide.
I agree that the new Fusion heels seem higher than the old LCL heels. The LCL soles are an ongoing maintenance project (part of my mission as the skate tech is to keep the skates in usable condition as long as possible so we can pass them down to another user—saves extra expense for families and keeps more kids out of junky skates that are torture devices). I don't understand why they would use such a water-absorbent material on a skate sole. At first I was kind of glad to see the low-maintenance PVC soles appear, but they are finicky for mounting [easy to crack the sole if the pilot hole is a tiny bit small, and then the next size of drill bit strips out too easily] and the finish rubs off on the leatherette part of the boot and is very difficult to remove. I have observed that the heels look higher, but haven't seen the pitching forward problem, but maybe the skaters in question were just able to adapt. I got new blades in January that have a slightly lower rear stanchion and have found that they work better for me than what I was on previously, so I have experienced how much difference a small change in ramp angle can make. I was just lucky that it was for the better.
Good luck with your boot quest, it's a daunting but noble mission. Worth the effort.
To the original poster: It is so unfortunate you still aren't happy with your boots.
Quote from: supersharp on May 14, 2021, 08:10:08 PM
I was able to be fitted for Harlicks without going to California. They have a pretty good sheet for cueing you about where to measure, so if you have a dealer to work with, it should be fine. Since then, I've measured several other local skaters for Harlicks and so far, all of us are very happy with our boots.
It is great that you have done the measurements successfully! I wish all fitters were consistently successful, with all brands of boot. Are you a professional fitter, or do you just do it for your club or students? A shame that your indicated location (Juneau, Alaska) is a little too far from the original poster's indicated location (Tidewater VA) to be an easy drive.
My theory is that a boot maker is more likely to be helpful in the event the boots turn out bad if the boot maker themselves, or one of their factory reps, does the fitting. Dealers are independent, so I think some boot makers don't feel as strong a commitment to help in that event. So, if I were buying boots today, that would be my personal choice. I would also personally choose full custom, since I have had so many fit problems myself. But of course that is inconvenient and expensive.
Quote from: supersharp on May 14, 2021, 08:10:08 PM
I agree that the new Fusion heels seem higher than the old LCL heels. The LCL soles are an ongoing maintenance project (part of my mission as the skate tech is to keep the skates in usable condition as long as possible so we can pass them down to another user—saves extra expense for families and keeps more kids out of junky skates that are torture devices). I don't understand why they would use such a water-absorbent material on a skate sole.
Jackson's web page (http://www.jacksonultimaskate.com/static/images/sole-options.pdf) says
Quote
LCL Leather Cork composite sole deliver improved stability and superior shock absorption.
So maybe it has those advantages?? An engineer might know better, but I think material choice is often a compromise between desired properties.
If I had an LCL sole, I would think it worthwhile to waterproof the outside using a sealant, like Silicone (when it is dry, of course, not while it is wet from use). (I have only personally used Sno-Seal, which is basically a wax, but perhaps it lasts less long than silicone...)
Quote from: Query on May 15, 2021, 11:53:17 AM
To the original poster: It is so unfortunate you still aren't happy with your boots.
It is great that you have done the measurements successfully! I wish all fitters were consistently successful, with all brands of boot. Are you a professional fitter, or do you just do it for your club or students? A shame that your indicated location (Juneau, Alaska) is a little too far from the original poster's indicated location (Tidewater VA) to be an easy drive.
My theory is that a boot maker is more likely to be helpful in the event the boots turn out bad if the boot maker themselves, or one of their factory reps, does the fitting. Dealers are independent, so I think some boot makers don't feel as strong a commitment to help in that event. So, if I were buying boots today, that would be my personal choice. I would also personally choose full custom, since I have had so many fit problems myself. But of course that is inconvenient and expensive.
Jackson's web page (http://www.jacksonultimaskate.com/static/images/sole-options.pdf) says
So maybe it has those advantages?? An engineer might know better, but I think material choice is often a compromise between desired properties.
If I had an LCL sole, I would think it worthwhile to waterproof the outside using a sealant, like Silicone (when it is dry, of course, not while it is wet from use). (I have only personally used Sno-Seal, which is basically a wax, but perhaps it lasts less long than silicone...)
I am not a professional bootfitter, but Harlick did offer to set me up as the local fitter for them because I sent them everything they asked for plus more, and photos of everything. I was a ski instructor for 17 years, and ski boots need to fit to perform, so I have a lot of experience with assessing fit and customizing to improve performance. I also toured their shop about 10 years ago and have had some great discussions with Phil and Jason about fixing boots over the years. I hope there's someone closer than me that can help!
As far as the Jackson LCL soles go...I also thought about silicone, but it turns out that it peels off the soles pretty quickly. Snoseal works, but it's fussy to be trying to treat the sides of the soles when the underside has that paint on it :( particularly because you need to heat the sole to apply the Snoseal. Some of the newer boots turn out to be vinyl instead of leather, so I'm a little concerned about overheating the boot while heating the sole. So far, the best product I have found is a product called "Obernauf's Leather Oil" that comes in a bottle with a swab applicator. I usually can manage to put 3 or 4 coats of the oil on while I have the skates in my possession for sharpening. It soaks in and disappears from the surface after awhile, but I see less bloating of the edge of the sole where lunges drag across the ice now that I'm using it. For mounting holes, I use some silicone, which is held in place by the sole plates.
The Obernauf's is great on any oil-coated leather and doesn't darken it as much as the Snoseal. It looks very wet at first, but after a day it soaks deeper into the leather and the surface is a nice oiled-but-not-waxed color. No heating required, although of course the oil soaks in faster if the leather is warm.