I had my blades sharpened by a new, highly recommended, sharpener yesterday. I was really hopeful that he'd do a great job as he's only a few hours drive away, and he definitely seemed to know his stuff. The sharpening process was slightly different to my usual sharpener but nothing major, so it was a bit of a shock when I got on the ice today and discovered that my newly sharpened blades felt like square wheels. Basically no matter how I skated - two foot glides, forward stroking, etc. it felt like I was skating over a set of uniform ruts.
The ice wasn't perfect but I've skated on similar many times and never felt anything like today. I've looked very closely at the blades and can't see anything that would explain the problem.
Also as expected I found stopping difficult, however I found they slipped when I tried forward crossovers.
Any thoughts on the possible cause of the problems, and how I could fix them please (until I can get to my usual sharpener)?
I don't know what you can try but did you call the new sharpener and discuss? I would start there, then maybe call the old one and get some input, if you are comfortable telling them you went elsewhere, but did so because they were much closer.
Make sure what the ROH was. Did they tell you? Did you tell them what you normal get?
You can feel the sharp edge on the bottom, right? And there is no new rust on the blade that could be slowing you down?
I would try skating somewhere else, a different day, with as nice ice as possible.
Otherwise, I'm with rd350.
Absolutely no sign of rust on the blades - I checked them as soon as I came off the ice and they look totally fine. I was expecting them to have tiny ridges all of the way down.
There were some nice patches of ice that I tried skating on, and they felt the same. The "bumps" were so uniform it soon became obvious it was the blades rather than the ice quality that was the problem.
I'm planning to contact the sharpener from yesterday but wanted to check I hadn't overlooked something first, and will happily call the original sharpener as I will probably need him to sort them out!!
Good luck! That's really frustrating.
One thought to throw out there - and I have no idea if I'm right. When I used to hand hone/sharpen my skates with this things called a ProFiler (maybe they're still in existence), at the end you had to stone the sides of the blades with a very fine stone to knock off the burrs caused by the sharpening process. I think the burrs are caused when you machine sharpen as well - and professional sharpeners stone the skates when they are done (a pro sharpener/rink manager once showed me how he did this - holding the stone at ever so slight an angle so as to not mar the chrome, or as in the case of the ProFiler, you masking tape the blades and hone them dead parallel). The burrs are basically invisible and very hard to feel with your fingers - but the blades won't glide. If you're looking for a temporary fix until you have your regular sharpener put things back to how they were - maybe ask a local sharpener if this is the problem/ if they can stone them down. Good luck!
I wonder if the new sharpener used a different radius of hollow (ROH)? That happened to me once - sharpener did it by accident - and when I got on the ice, I could barely go forward at first. Then my blades sounded like a freight train on the ice when I did crossovers. When I tried 3-turns, it felt like the blade, not I, was in control. I couldn't stop, which is never a problem with my sharpener. Of course I thought it was me, but for once, it wasn't!
I've taken my blades to a highly recommended sharpener when my old guy was out at Nationals.
Man, just hated the new guy's sharpening. The edges weren't even and they would chatter no matter what I did.
When my guy retires I guess I'll have to sharpen my own somehow.
I just spoke to the new sharpener and he said he wonders if he made a mistake and has offered to re-sharpen them for me so I have agreed to let him have another go. I'm a little bit worried, but think it's only fair to give him a second chance.
Thinking about the overall process I really don't remember seeing him doing the stoning bit at the end which my usual sharpener always did, and the equipment they use is pretty similar, so maybe that it where the problem is. I'll mention it when I see him next.
Haven't managed to see the sharpener yet but did get the opinion of another really excellent sharpener (who can't sharpen the Matrix blades :( )
and he's said that whilst the sharpening is really nice and smooth the rockers are both wrecked, and also totally different. He reckoned the rocker would be great on a hockey blade belonging to a 10 year old!!
I know there's a guy who should be able to repair the rockers, trouble is that he actually does loads of machinery sharpening so the place is a dust bowl and the last time I took skates there they came out sporting more black patches than the average Dalmatian!! Oh well, looks aren't everything - I'd rather have usable blades than pretty skates ;)
Can you cover the boots?
Quote from: rd350 on March 04, 2015, 11:01:16 PM
Can you cover the boots?
I've been thinking the same thing. Wondered about putting my boot covers over them but they're very nylon-y so worried that they'll make them too slippery for him to handle.
what about skate taping the boots? Then there's no slipping and the boots are protected.
Sharpeners are a little like auto mechanics.
They love to say that the other sharpener did everything wrong. Take such things with a grain of salt. Also remember that many things, including exact profile, are determined by the individual sharpener, because there is no standard by which things are done, so sharpeners often think things are totally wrong - but they are just the way another sharpener does it. Than can even be true between two of the greatest masters.
If the person forgot to stone your blades, to deburr or redirect the burr, you will feel an slight edge on the side of the blade, near the bottom of the blade (where it touches the ice).
The blades should feel very smooth from the side. Another thing that can slow you down, by the way, is if he leaves the side very rough. Though I doubt it would be all that drastic.
Profile does not explain why your blade would skate slowly (if that is what you mean by square wheels), unless you are skating on your toe pick.
Good luck.
Interestingly the guy who reviewed the skates yesterday was very complimentary about the work of the sharpener who caused the problem, whilst the guy who caused the problem was very critical of the sharpener I usually go to (and who's work has never caused my any problems!). I really hate it when people criticise other people's work for no good reason.
The blades do feel very smooth at the sides, and that's what the guy yesterday said, so I don't think burrs are the problem.
Basically what is happening is when I stroke or glide on either or both feet it feels like I am skating over a series of uniform pipes or ridges, however speed isn't a problem, or at least it wouldn't be if my teeth would stop chattering!
Quote from: Christy on March 05, 2015, 02:18:23 PM
however speed isn't a problem, or at least it wouldn't be if my teeth would stop chattering!
I've had this exact same problem.
The edges are not even.
http://icedoesntcare.blogspot.com/2013/03/blade-noise.html
I took them back to my old sharpener and that is what he found.
So did it feel like you were skating over ridges too?
Quote from: Christy on March 05, 2015, 08:32:23 PM
So did it feel like you were skating over ridges too?
I don't remember that sensation. But that may be because I'm not as advanced a skater as you and so didn't notice it.
You can test for even edges:
Get a Popsicle stick. Popsicles (or other brand) are available in dollar stores.
Turn the skate upside down and hold it so the blade is vertical (e.g., between your knees or in a vice (don't squeeze hard enough to distort the shape of the boot). Balance the stick on top on edge, looking at the blade from one end. The stick should be at a right angle to the height of the blade. Slide the stick from one end of the blade to another. It should stay at that same right angle.
Note: if one edge is uniformly higher than the other by a small amount, you will not get the effect you have seen - you will just need to compensate by tilting your leg and hip a bit. AgnesNitt's effect would be from a non-uniform height difference, that varied along the blade - which would make your Popsicle stick tilt to and fro as you slide it along the blade.
Healthy hint: Don't eat the Popsicle.
The one thing that I am wondering is if you are hitting the bottom of the back of the blade when you stroke. This can happen sometimes - you can feel it hit - and if you look at the blade from the side you can see the back of the blade is a little higher than it should be -
I'm not describing this very well. Maybe you should take a photo of the blade and post it here - I would be able to tell from a photograph. This is a very common thing that happens with one of the sharpeners in my area - I can see it from a distance at this point!
Well, the blades have just been resharpened and the sharpener thinks the problems were caused by the edges being a bit off. I can't test the blades for a few days but I'm keeping everything crossed that the problem was identified and fixed.
So the vibration has reduced but the rocker is scaring everyone and I can just about manage a circuit of the rink. Tried to spin but couldn't even manage a single rev and my 3 turn was a disaster so I've returned to my old skates until I can get to my old sharpener who has promised to fix them.
However the rocker is seriously badly curved - I'm just wondering how much steel the sharpener is going to have to remove to fix them. They've only been sharpened 4 times (twice properly, twice badly) - will I have any blade left??
I hate to say this - but I think you need another sharpener.
It costs a lot of money, in terms of blade life, for a sharpener to keep trying again and again.
Sorry, should have been clearer. I am now going to original sharpener to have him fix the rocker so it will hopefully be a one off as he will be the only person who ever sharpens my skates again (lesson learned!!!), but I know it's going to require some work as the rocker damage was obvious from quite some distance. He hasn't seen blades yet and probably thinks I'm exaggerating, but I do worry that the blade can't be saved.
Big bummer. When are you going to the old sharpener? Hope all goes really well!
Love to hear what your old sharpener has to say. But it's still fun to try to figure things out yourself.
Like - are your skates noisier on the ice than they used to be? If so, is it up front (near the toepick), in the middle, or in the back?
Do you skid more or less than you used to?
My blades have been repaired, as best as possible. The problems identified were cross / off-center sharpening (which could be rectified and "over-sharpening" my toe picks (which couldn't be rectified). So blade life has definitely been shortened, and I'm feeling a bit insecure when jumping by the changes to the toe-picks, which also feels different when I spin but I'm hoping I can get used to it.
Quote from: Christy on March 28, 2015, 10:21:50 AM
My blades have been repaired, as best as possible. The problems identified were cross / off-center sharpening (which could be rectified and "over-sharpening" my toe picks (which couldn't be rectified).
I'm glad you got done what could be done! Too bad you will have to adapt and buy again sooner.
By "cross sharpening" did he mean that The Evil Sharpener used (and only used) a cross-grinding wheel, leaving you with a rough surface and not much of a hollow? If not, what does he mean?
By "over-sharpening" your toe picks, did he mean that The Evil Sharpener ground down your toe picks a bit, so they are a bit shorter, and you have to roll forwards more to reach - or do you mean he really made them more sharp?
BTW, what type of blades do you have?
The first toe pick (drag picks??) on both blades were ground down a bit so I have to lean further forward - I guess I'll get used to it and at some point the blades will catch up!!
and I think the cross sharpening may have referred to the fact that the sharpening was uneven from front to rear of the blade so the edges were different heights along the blades.
Blades are Matrix Elites
You could have found the problems: The Popsicle stick trick would have found the uneven edges, especially if they were so uneven your teeth would chatter - I've never seen edges that uneven. The toepicks probably look rounded off on the back-most tooth, and may skid on toe jumps.
Of course you still needed the good sharpener to try to put it right, more or less.
A really good sharpener could "sharpen" the picks to make such skids go away - at the price of making you roll slightly more forwards, because they'd be ground down a bit more.
As far as having to roll forwards farther - that normally goes away gradually as more of the metal gets used up. The sharpener could have made it go away now, but killing that metal that would have further reduced the blade lifetime.
Both a less sharp toepick, and having to roll farther forwards, means that your Ultima blades now behave more like MK or Wilson blades.
I personally have a lot of trouble adjusting to different blade shapes. I hope you are better at that than me!
I did the popsicle test after the first sharpening and thought that I'd found the edges uneven but I questioned myself when the person I asked to review the blades said the edges looked ok but the rocker was wrong ??? I figured they knew more than me!!
The toe picks were totally fine after the first sharpening, then ground during the second attempt >:(
I've had to change blades a few times recently thanks to my foot injury then the blade issues and it's not been too bad so I decided to try to get used to the blades with the minimum repairs required instead of significantly reducing the life of the blades.