Yup it's over 12 weeks now and I am still waiting for my custom Harlicks. While I wait, I have more and more time to think!
A friend brought her old Harlick High Testers with Pattern 99 blades to the rink for me to try tonight. The skates were 1/2-ish size too small for me, maybe a bit more so it was difficult with just the boot but wow the Pattern 99's are sooooo different than my Coronation Aces! They seem to really grind and stick to the ice. I couldn't stop. I could barely skate at first but I could actually hook my spins better and I think actually spin better with them.
This is probably strange but skating backwards felt way better than forwards in them and I've been working on BO>FI 3-turns and although I still couldn't keep any motion going when I turned forward, it was better and felt somehow easier. Does that make any sense?
The Pattern 99's felt like a much more substantial blade - maybe that's not the word. I don't know.
For those who switched from Coronation Ace to Pattern 99's, how was it? How long did the transition take you? Are you happy with the change?
I never had Coro Aces, but I did have Pattern 99s. I'm not a fan - mostly because of the HUGE toe-picks. I always felt somewhat "scratchy" in them (though that's probably my technique more than the blade). I have a pair of used Gold Seals now, which I LOVE and I think are great for spinning. I don't think I'll ever wear a different blade!
I know what you mean about spins and such feeling better in the higher level blade. I remember the first time I transitioned out of my beginner blades to more high level blades. Spins felt SO much different - in a good way!!
Transitioning to new blades has never been an issue for me. There was MAYBE a week of "Whoa! That feels different!!" After that, it was back to business as usual. You should be fine if/when you decide to make the switch.
Good luck - new blades are so much fun!
The ROH of the sharpening and/or amount of flattening may be what makes them feel more grindy... Or it could simply be the fact that the 8' rocker puts more of the blade in touch with the ice when you stop. However my Pattern 99-profile Paramounts are also quite difficult to stop in, which is a problem I don't remember having with 8' rocker Gold Seals.
I don't mind the large toe picks and maybe even like it better for toe jumps like the Lutz. As they aren't real Pattern 99's it's hard to do a fair comparison. I've heard others claim that Gold Seal-profile Paramounts feel very different from real Gold Seals, and my personal opinion of Paramount is less than stellar... For me the Gold Seal was a much better choice for whatever that's worth. I imagine the real Pattern 99 is a good blade but the Paramounts haven't left me with a positive impression of the profile so I'd be really hesitant to ever try it myself. I skated on Four Aces once, which are almost the same as Coronation Aces but have a straight-cut toe pick rather than cross cut, but it was years ago and I was just learning to skate then, so I can't fairly compare. However I did really like the move to 8' rockers when I switched from Gold Stars to Gold Seals. People warned spins would be harder but they actually got easier/better. Spins got a lot harder/worse when I later got the Pattern 99-profile Paramounts.
Transitioning from the Coronation Ace to the Gold Seal was easier in my opinion. The C. Ace had almost the same profile and toe pick wasn't as hard to get used to. However, it seems that the top skaters like both. Maybe it's just what feels good to you. There is a website that lists what some of the top skaters wear and it's a 50/50.
http://www.iceskatesnblades.com/wilson---mk-blades.html
I want Pattern 99s. Yes I'd be over bladed, but I really want to try that rocker. And even though it's a blade for a more advanced skater, it wouldn't do me any harm since I can skate, I just don't need that toe pick.
I'm with AgnesNitt. I have a secret passion to try the Pattern 99, for the exact same reason as AgnesNitt. The GoldSeals, too. I'm crazy curious about how those spin rockers feel. I'd also be overbladed. But 1-if it helps my spins, then awesome, and 2- at our ages, who CARES!
In reality, I'd probably go with something shorter for synchro and if possible with crosscut teeth (the straight cut on my vision synchros, I'm finding, put impressive holes in the ice with very little effort....scared what they'd do if I started working on double toes). But it's nice to dream.
Quote from: Loops on November 23, 2014, 03:28:07 PM
I'm with AgnesNitt. I have a secret passion to try the Pattern 99, for the exact same reason as AgnesNitt. The GoldSeals, too. I'm crazy curious about how those spin rockers feel. I'd also be overbladed. But 1-if it helps my spins, then awesome, and 2- at our ages, who CARES!
I'm over bladed in Gold Seals, but I love them. They're definitely not going to HURT your skating. If you're willing to shell out the $$$ (or find a used pair - which is what I did), I'd go for it. They really are an awesome blade.
I've skated on Gold Seals and 99s (never coro aces, though, I was in Phantoms as a youngster). They are very, very different blades!
Pattern 99s are very low to the ground, and have much shorter tails (though larger toe picks). In essence, there is much less "blade" than the Gold Seal. I think they are a little easier to control on turns for a few reasons - less blade, less to move, less of a lean is needed to hit a solid edge. I prefer toe jumps in them, the pick is very secure. There is less 'glide' with these blades, though.
I ultimately stuck with Gold Seals because I frankly couldn't spin worth a damn in the Pattern 99s. The rocker on the Gold Seals is pretty severe in comparison, and requires a shift further forward to find the spin rocker. Edge jumps overall felt more secure to me. I also felt much easier lift on my axels in the Gold Seals, and I think my speed is a bit better. They do require more precision than the Patterns, IMO.
I hear that Coronation Ace to Gold Seal is an easier transition to make than others, but most of the kids around here go from Coronation Aces to Pattern 99s. That's definitely the most popular blade with the younger set in my area right now!
Haha, okay so now I need to consider Gold Seals too! Great! LOL
Not to mention my struggle with really loving the "look" of revolutions....
Interesting, the Pattern 99's felt like a lot more blade. I've neer speed skated but the feel of the blade felt very long and made me think of speed skates. That said the blades were 10 1/2 and the same person, now in Ice Fly's rather than Harlicks is using a 9 1/2 Pattern 99. The blade also felt very flat in comparison to my Ace's. Definitely 2 completely different blades. Such a hard decision!
Gold Seals are a lot of blade! I know skaters at lower levels who love them, but some skaters, quite frankly, aren't ready for such a high level blade. It's okay! I'm probably overbladed myself, though I've spent 15 years on the ice.
If it's not necessary, you don't have to consider $500 blades! MK pros are great, as are 99s, phantoms, Aces, and I know a skater who does international dances in MK visions. There are tons of options out there.
I'm not a big fan of Pattern 99s either. Like JSM, I could never spin properly on them and edge jumps were terrible to re-learn. I would skid all my take-offs. There's something weird about that spin rocker...
The feeling of grinding and sticking to the ice is probably more about the sharpening than the blade. And, going from a 7 foot rocker to an 8 foot rocker would make a difference too.
I'm thinking I may get another Coronation Ace and if I want to change in the future I could. This way I won't have a new boot and different blades. Maybe that'd be smart. The longer I wait for the boots, the more I think - that can be dangerous!
This is probably a good strategy.
But it IS fun to think and imagine. And just to enable you further.. :angel:... I'm intrigued by the Skate Science blades, and honestly, if I'm prepared to drop bank on Gold Seals, then I feel like I might at least talk to Skate Science (and some other people who might know the blades). I find their synchro blades particularly tempting. Their website is interesting, but it seems that no-one on this forum has actually tried any of their blades. One of the guys at my rink has the dance ones and is happy.
Quote from: Loops on November 24, 2014, 07:18:01 AM
This is probably a good strategy.
But it IS fun to think and imagine. And just to enable you further.. :angel:... I'm intrigued by the Skate Science blades, and honestly, if I'm prepared to drop bank on Gold Seals, then I feel like I might at least talk to Skate Science (and some other people who might know the blades). I find their synchro blades particularly tempting. Their website is interesting, but it seems that no-one on this forum has actually tried any of their blades. One of the guys at my rink has the dance ones and is happy.
That's the boat I'm in... Pretty close to going and buying another set of Gold Seals, but really curious about SkateScience DoublePlus blades, and also being tempted by a heavily-discounted pair of new Gold Stars. Ugh decisions!
Personally, I bought Gold Stars a couple months after I first skated after trying borrowed skates with Four Aces and realizing that yes, I did want/need something better than my floppy ancient cheap department store skates. ZERO REGRETS! I learned all the single jumps in under six months on those blades, it was glorious. Yes I was, am, and probably always will be "over-bladed", but who cares? Some may criticize but it's my money and my skating, and it certainly doesn't hurt anything (except my wallet). When I got the Gold Seals I got them gold-plated even... I'm sure some people thought I looked ridiculous but *I* liked them. ;D
P.S. For whatever it's worth when I got Gold Seals it was on a new brand of boots which needed a 3/4" shorter blade, and aside from typical break-in, I had no issues adjusting. In my opinion the best opportunity to try new blades is when you get new boots. That's probably not the safest path but it's the one I tread. If you end up having them you can always swap them out and sell them assert a small loss, or hold on to to try again later...
I haven't heard of the Science ones. I'll check out their site.
I have an affinity to Wilsons, for no particular reason.
Will ask my fitter and coach again about blade rec's. Thanks!
Quote from: rd350 on November 24, 2014, 06:23:40 PM
I haven't heard of the Science ones. I'll check out their site.
I have an affinity to Wilsons, for no particular reason.
They're tried and true and loved by most top skaters and coaches alike. Aside from some possible manufacturing variance, you know what you're going to get with them.
SkateScience claims to be better designed for modern skating, particularly multi-revolutionary jumps, which didn't exist when the Wilson profiles were introduced (the Gold Seal goes back to the 60's). They are new and largely untested. There is a thread including some posts by someone who bought a pair here:
http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/threads/skate-science-blades.87110/
Quote from: Casey on November 23, 2014, 07:55:46 AM
However I did really like the move to 8' rockers when I switched from Gold Stars to Gold Seals. People warned spins would be harder but they actually got easier/better. Spins got a lot harder/worse when I later got the Pattern 99-profile Paramounts.
There is practically no adjustment going from Gold Stars to Gold Seals because they have the same rocker profile. The only difference is that the Gold Seal is flatter from the middle of the blade to the heel of the blade, since it's an 8' rocker. There is a big difference in rocker shape between the Gold Star/Gold Seal and the Pattern 99, though. The Pattern 99 rocker is less round, which might be why you had a hard time spinning on them and back 3-turns on them felt more comfortable for rd350.
Interesting, thanks.
Quote from: Doubletoe on November 24, 2014, 08:35:00 PM
There is practically no adjustment going from Gold Stars to Gold Seals because they have the same rocker profile. The only difference is that the Gold Seal is flatter from the middle of the blade to the heel of the blade, since it's an 8' rocker.
Interesting, I didn't know that they were so similar! Thanks for sharing!
Okay I have been re-reading my too many threads on this topic and other blade threads and just sent off a couple more questions to my skate fitter and writing that brought up one thing I have wondered about.
Currently with my Coronation Aces (on Reidell Royal boots - very old high level boots) I have trouble picking up my toe for backward to forward 3-turns.
Would the larger toe pick on the P99's make something like that harder or is there something about the blades that could make it easier?
TIA
Seriously, I have a make a decision asap so I should stop all the questions very soon!! :-\
Your trouble likely has more to do with "old" boots than the specific blade model. Toe picks have nothing to do with back turns so that shouldn't make one bit of difference for you.
Oh okay, thanks. I keep thinking I just can't pick my toe pick up off the ice enough and it (something does) stop me in my tracks from gliding forward. I can make the turn and them boom - stop!
We have a really top level skater at our rink. He's soon darn good. Doubles, triples, back spins to die for. He returned from a tour. Cut to the chase, he is wearing low level blades because that's what the group wore. He's awesome. Don't fret too much over the blades. The blades of the 70s were nothing compared to today's blades, and they did triples on them. I would be careful with going with too advanced of a blade if you have any issues spinning. Changing the blade profile to an advanced blade is going to make it much harder to learn to spin. I would not go with parabolic. Too much money, and one sharpening is going to ruin the factor set parabolic.
That's true, I see that a lot. Skill is skill!
I would love a blade that helped me skill though. ???
Interestingly one of the few things that felt easier with the Pattern 99's I tried out briefly were spins. Or a spin (1-foot basic). That and skating backwards!
You are like me with these decisions, so think I get you on this. You know, there is no sin in sticking with the cor aces this go around. Here's what I told myself before whipping out the credit card: "You're still getting back on your feet? Why not go with the cheaper, but still very good blade now and change up after you've got your spins and jumps back? This isn't going to be your last pair of skates, right?"
Also can you remind me your actual level? I seem to recall you're self taught up to now ??? But took a 20 year break, so is this the first time you're working with a coach? I would consider putting the $$ into coaching rather than blades..... you can always change up later when you have a better idea of which blade profile would be a better match to your technique.
It is just so much fun to think about and research these blades though, no? I personally am enjoying all your blade threads. And taking copious notes, too. ;)
Haha, glad you're enjoying it! Someone should. ;)
I'm not sure, these may be my last skates. They are custom Harlicks and I am 29 +21 years old!
You remember fairly correctly . Self taught but skated a lot as a kid. Took a tiny bit of lessons in 20's, haven't skated for 10-12(??) years until last March and since have a coach. Doing group at the moment just while I waited for the skates and was having a foot issue from the old ones.
Quote from: rd350 on December 02, 2014, 09:01:51 PM
Oh okay, thanks. I keep thinking I just can't pick my toe pick up off the ice enough and it (something does) stop me in my tracks from gliding forward. I can make the turn and them boom - stop!
I have this problem too on back 3s. My coach says the turn part is a down-up-down motion in terms of bending, and when I don't have that glide forward it is bc I am doing down-up and not making that bend after. Or, the other thing is I've done something weird with my free leg or hip. Lol
Now those may not be your issue with it, but I figure I would throw it out there in case it helps.
I would like to think the others are right, that the blade wouldn't be a miracle and help us Skate better. Though it would be nice!! Perhaps your old blades are just super flat and that's why you feel a difference with the pattern 99s you tried?
I don't know though. I'm definitely not an expert here, and it seems I'm working on simile skills as you :)
Yeah I think you are right @littlerain. I think I'm not doing the 2nd down either, thanks! Will pay more attention to that. I also think we are at about the same level.
I don't think my blades are flat at all. I think Jim said they're still quite good.
Yes you're getting customs, but I seriously doubt they'll be your last boots (at least I hope not!!!!). Boots, and blades do wear out after a while. You will break in these skates, and then over time and use, the leather will lose it's stiffness, and you're going to be buying again. How long that takes varies with each skater, so there's no way to predict how long you'll get.
It's quite possible that you'll be replacing your blades before your boots. If you like to keep your blades sharp, then you'll be sharpening as frequently as every 20 hours (this is what I do, approximately). Each sharpening takes off a bit of the blade, flattening it a microscopic smidge, and removing some of the metal. Again, predicting how long it will take to go through the blades depends on your personal skating style, roh (also referred to as "grind") and how sharp you like 'em. It also depends on your sharpener and how much metal s/he takes off each time.
So trust me! If you keep skating, these aren't your last blades! And sadly, because I know you dropped bank on the harlicks, these won't be your last boots either. There's always new opportunities to experiment so you don't need to put stress on yourself to get the "right" blades now. Plus the "right" blades now might not be the "right" blades in 3 years. KWIM?
The higher level blade you go, the harder it is to find the sweet spot for a spin. The larger a toe pick you go, the more apt you are to "scratch" when going backwards. Yes, it is easier to skate backwards if you are scratching (because you have two points of contact on the ice). But, it will drive the coaches/judges nuts because it is so technically incorrect. And, it's really ugly to watch someone constantly on their toe pick, going backwards, and scratching. To keep from scratching, you are going to have to learn absolutely correct posture (bending knees deeply).
I just went from a lower heeled Harlick with MK Professionals to a higher heeled Edea with Jackson Ultima Elites. These changes put me more forward on the blade. I could easily do 15-20 revolution forward spins and 5-6 revolution back spins, multiple combinations both before and after. But, I had to watch it on skating backwards, because I'd scratch in the higher end blades. Jump landings, scratch. It took a few months to get the jump landings without scratching. Now, I will consistently scratch sometimes on backwards power pulls in certain areas of the curve. If I scratch, I have to bend my knees more. At first, I was trying to bend from the waist, which totally screwed up my loop jumps (and all jumps). But, my backwards figure eights (both backwards inside and backwards outside) are not scratching. (I have been practicing them since October, when I realized I was scratching so much going backwards) All spins are back, but my camel has been a mess. My rotations on the camel spins are still too big of a loop, but are getting smaller. (My Moves in the Field video has a camel at the end). At least now, I don't fall out of the spin. Again, higher level blades might take you down a notch in spinning, especially on a harder spin. But, my layback is now easier to do!
The MK Professionals are a standard teaching blade. They have a two point curve system, and a big sweet spot. They are a little flatter, which helps in spinning. There is a also larger bottom & top toe pick, which does help tremendously in learning fast forward and backwards scratch spins, and toe jumps.
Quote from: rd350 on December 03, 2014, 01:40:43 AM
Yeah I think you are right @littlerain. I think I'm not doing the 2nd down either, thanks! Will pay more attention to that. I also think we are at about the same level.
I don't think my blades are flat at all. I think Jim said they're still quite good.
Ah that's good then :) I couldn't remember!
I decided that since I went all the way to NJ to see a specific fitter that I should take his advice, so I am going for the Pattern 99's!
Wish me luck! Any advice on getting used to them (and new boots)?
Hope to have them on my feet next week.
No advice here, but good luck!!
Thanks @skategeek!
Quote from: rd350 on December 04, 2014, 05:56:26 PM
I decided that since I went all the way to NJ to see a specific fitter that I should take his advice, so I am going for the Pattern 99's!
Wish me luck! Any advice on getting used to them (and new boots)?
Hope to have them on my feet next week.
Awesome, hope they work out for you! Just skate as frequently as you can to break in the new boots. Once they are no longer painful, just skate as hare and fast as you can - both to further break in the boots and to feel competent on the new blades. Have fun!
Thanks Casey. The fitter said the Pattern 99's I tried may not have had the ROH that is right for me and even the toe pick may not have been manicured properly. I guess he didn't think the issues I was having should be and it may have been those particular blades so I am hoping it won't be too bad a transition and that I will at least be able to stop when I get on them at first! Should be interesting! :)
Glad the choice is made and stress is over. May your boots arrive soon so you can get down to the business of enjoying them!!!
Keep us posted on how you like
Thanks Loops!