I'm still in Delta. I can't go past it yet since I can't do a bunny hop good enough for my current coach (who teaches strictly in the ISI format). As much as I love edges and turns, I won't be happy getting stuck in Delta or the early FS levels. I'd love to learn the dance step sequences in the higher FS levels and be able to compete as well.
Coach told me though that there are other options for non-jumpers:
1. do MITF exclusively until the edges are secure enough
2. go to ISI Dance 1
3. start ISI Figures track
I would really prefer #1, but Coach told me my competition prospects would be very limited since I will not be able to pass the FS levels without the requisite jumps.
As for #2: Compulsory dances aren't as exciting to watch as freestyle routines, but I'm thinking that with dances, you get to learn edges AND feel that you are progressing since the edges translate directly into dance routines (unlike with freestyle where the moves still have to be assembled). My only worry here is that my extension isn't good, and so is my stroking...
For #3: I seem to specialize in moving with low speed on a limited portion of the ice (haha!), so Figures might be for me, but then again almost no competition prospect here. No one here enjoys watching figures.
I guess all I want is to get better edges while feeling that at least I'm progressing in the levels. I don't get that feeling practicing edges and turns right now. What do you think? I'd appreciate any comments or suggestions. Are there other options I have missed?
P.S. If I were to grade my current skills on a scale of 1-10 (10 being the highest):
forward stroking: 6
backward stroking: 6
forward edges (outside/inside): 8
backward edges outside: 6
backward edges inside: 1
outside 3-turns: 5
inside 3-turns: 3
mohawks: 4
I would go for the Moves-in-the-field. If you pass your Pre-Bronze MIF test, then you're halfway to becoming eligible to compete in Pre-bronze (since you need to pass the MIF test before they will allow you to take the FS test if you are testing under USFSA). Meanwhile, your edges and basic skating skills are becoming more secure, which will give you a better basis for jumping.
Quote from: Doubletoe on June 07, 2013, 12:38:02 AM
I would go for the Moves-in-the-field. If you pass your Pre-Bronze MIF test, then you're halfway to becoming eligible to compete in Pre-bronze (since you need to pass the MIF test before they will allow you to take the FS test if you are testing under USFSA). Meanwhile, your edges and basic skating skills are becoming more secure, which will give you a better basis for jumping.
Thanks Doubletoe. I'm not in the US though and it's mainly ISI here (we have something like USFS but the lowest level is ISI FS3 equivalent). Does ISI have a similar test where one can get up the levels without doing the jumps?
I'm not sure what the competition structure is like where you are... but since you mentioned that you don't jump and you want to compete, I would actually rec dance. Solo dance is becoming a little more popular (though since I don't know where you are I don't know if it's in your area). I would wonder not only IF there was a free skate competition structure without a jump requirement (other than maybe artistic or interpretive, but I know people usually jump in these programs as well), but also, even if jumps weren't required per se, what your experience would be going into a free skate comp without jumps. So, since you don't jump and want to compete, I'd say dance is the way to go. But I guess I also don't know whether you just don't jump now - ie: you don't know how - or if you don't have an interest in learning how to jump.
Even if dance competitions aren't your thing, I'd say taking dance tests is beneficial. I didn't master a lot of turns and stuff until I started testing dance. It really helps. Your extension and other things will improve as you learn and at the beginning levels, no one expects you to skate like Tanith Belbin :P
If someone could educate me a bit more on ISI if I'm completely wrong here, that'd be great. My knowledge is skate canada.
Also, have you thought about synchro?
Unless you just don't want to jump ever, looking at your skills list, I would think you've just not got to the point where you start learning to jump. Some coaches will teach it earlier than others, but until you've got the basic forward turns and backward edges solid, most coaches won't start teaching jumps.
I would recommend letting the coach lead your skating progression, but in general I would say that MITF come together faster than the jumps for a lot of adults.
Dance is a good option for improving your overall skating anyway. Although competition wise it will depend on how much solo dance there is available locally and whether you have to compete only compulsories or can you also do free dance. Finding a dance partner can be very difficult.
Thanks amy and fsk8r!
Quote from: fsk8r on June 07, 2013, 05:03:29 AM
Unless you just don't want to jump ever, looking at your skills list, I would think you've just not got to the point where you start learning to jump.
I wish I could jump. And spin. I really do. Some people can jump and spin without getting their basics right, but not me -- my brain won't let me jump if it's sure I can't land the jump well. So all I've been working on (with my coach and by myself) so far are edges, 3-turns, and mohawks (finally got rid of my crossover obsession :p). At first it was okay, but now my progress is beginning to plateau. I can't get the proper check for 3-turns and mohawks, etc. I'm getting bored and frustrated already with the prospect that I'm going to be stuck in Delta, so I was looking for a way to learn my edges while still moving up the levels (any set of levels, that is, but preferably one with a performance/competition track).
I've been researching on ice dance lately. It seems to me that in dance, I can learn all my turns in the order that I need them, which I think is nice. Aside from this, the first two dances don't require any turns at all, and I thought it would be nice to improve my forward edges and crossovers while learning a routine. My only worry is that dance puts a lot of emphasis on stroking, extension and posture (which I am not good at -- oh well, what am I good at in skating? :( ). I'm not sure how strict (my coach will be with) ISI Dance requirements are in the early levels, and I'm afraid I might end up just as frustrated because I can't get the most basic dance moves right.
Synchro is not an option, unfortunately. There's no synchro team here, only a group of singles freestyle skaters skating in group numbers during shows.
I'm leaning more towards shifting to dance now, though. I'll see if I can get my coach to test me if I can be dance material.
Dance will help in some ways (it teaches you extension and posture - you don't have to be perfect to start dance!), but it won't fix everything. It is however a good thing to learn to do, but at this stage of your skating I wouldn't necessarily choose to limit yourself just to dance. Free dance requires you to be able to spin, so it's worth persevering with learning to jump and spin. I just wouldn't do anything exclusively. There's lots ot learn in skating and everything builds on another. So I would perhaps think about redefining your skating at this stage so that you're not so worried about passing the next level but work on increasing your skills. You might find that there are some harder things you can already do (but perhaps haven't tried) while there are some things you are currently working on which you can't do.
Skating is a journey and sometimes you need to measure your progress by things other than the predefined test levels. Going from a 1rev spin to a 2rev spin, might actually be a huge step forward for someone, while it may not be significant in the test scheme. But you need to learn to celebrate those improvements.
I have no ideas about the ISI levels, but have you tried things like bunny hops and lunges yet? How about shoot the ducks and forward spirals? Other than a bunny hop, all the others just require the ability to glide on one foot, but require the body position to be changed. Bunny hops are taught in the UK as the precurser to rotational jumps. They don't have to be big, but it's about getting used to moving from toe pick to blade.
Actually, when my coach and I discussed this it was right after a frustrating bunny hop lesson. :) I have real difficulty with them. I think it's because I still remember my bunny hop accident years ago when I didn't land on my toepick and messed up my spine. I can do bunny hops if I bend my swinging leg, but my coach insists I do it with a straight leg, and with speed. Not working. Interestingly, I didn't have that same fear problem with the waltz jump and the half-flip (I've actually gone up to FS1 lessons with another coach who was more focused on going up levels quickly rather than mastering each skill. Current coach is the complete opposite.).
I don't plan to abandon freestyle completely. I still hope to jump and spin, but I think I just need to feel more comfortable moving on ice first before attempting jumping again. I still have most of my waltz jump, and I can still do 2-foot spins with around 3-4 revs, but I've plateaued on them, so I moved back to the basics. However, I'm beginning to hate the fact that I still can't do my mohawks and 3-turns right, despite being in this sport for 2.5 years.
Glad to know that I don't have to be "good enough" to start Dance. I hope my coach will be patient with me though!
Sampaguita, I'm working on flip and lutz and I never learned bunny hop. I took USFS Learn to Skate lessons but went with the Adult Basic 1-4 track. My coach tried to teach me the bunny hop but I have an irrational fear of it. Coach tried to have me do a connecting step that had a forward on the toe pick action - I shrieked in terror when I tried it. After we quit laughing hysterically, we did something that had backward toe pick action, no problem. I don't know why I am so scared of it - I never got close enough to trying a bunny hop to even fall on it. It's too bad you have to pass it to move on in ISI.
I'm also working on the 3 beginning ice dances. I highly recommend learning them - it's fun to have a pattern to skate around the rink, and the steps, while 'simple', are not simple to do well! I might have the worst swingrolls ever but I keep working on them. Don't worry about perfect extension and posture - that comes with practice. I don't even want to know what I look like now, but it's something else to have on the practice list. Doing the same 4 things over and over is not fun, especially when you hit a plateau or have an injury (I've got both).
Good luck! I also recommend learning moves in the field. I don't think you will regret time spent learning any of these skills, although I do understand you'd like to compete.
P.S. I know skaters who do artistic events with no jumps. You posted a competition video last year, didn't you? I thought you did great, and you had jumps, spirals and spins if I am remembering correctly.
I would recommend all three disciplines - dance, Moves and figures.
Quote from: sampaguita on June 07, 2013, 11:21:03 AM
I can do bunny hops if I bend my swinging leg, but my coach insists I do it with a straight leg, and with speed.
This technique is strongly suspect. While I understand that coaches may have their own way, this method would be scrutinized by many highly respected coaches. It is poor technique and is unsafe. The bunny hop is a precursor to a waltz jump and axel. Attempting axels with the free leg coming through straight would be hazardous. Even if you never do axels, the bunny hop should mimic this action. The free leg can straighten AFTER it passes through.
Quote from: Purple Sparkly on June 07, 2013, 02:43:28 PM
This technique is strongly suspect. While I understand that coaches may have their own way, this method would be scrutinized by many highly respected coaches. It is poor technique and is unsafe. The bunny hop is a precursor to a waltz jump and axel. Attempting axels with the free leg coming through straight would be hazardous. Even if you never do axels, the bunny hop should mimic this action. The free leg can straighten AFTER it passes through.
I teach both versions because Slusher made a good case for flexibility and preparation.
However, most of the outspoken coaches on this subject of straight-vs-bent knee pass throughs preach "prep for axel" from the get-go, focus their clientele on competitive skaters. Their goal is to have the skater blow through bunny hops and waltz jumps on their way to Axel-and-Beyond! They save time by never teaching a straight-knee through leg. Few teach recreational skaters, though.
A recreational skater gains an advantage by being able to perform the traditional straight-knee pass through during 6.0 events. It just LOOKS nicer. I don't see how it's unsafe as long as the takeoff technique is correct and weight transfer from side to side properly. It actually helps develops quick recovery of the free leg in order to land properly, which is helpful on split and stag jumps as well as axis-changing jumps such as salchow, toe loop and waltz/axel.
I don't see any real advantage to focusing on a bent-knee takeoff for non-competitive skaters; the bent-knee bunny hops aren't any higher, plus it encourages the skater to "crunch up" in the air, which leads to breaking at the waist on later jumps.
FWIW, the ISI test standards do NOT specify whether the pass-through knee has to be bent or straight. The op's coach is specifying it for some reason - perhaps the OP isn't bringing the free leg forward at all?
Quote from: icedancer2 on June 07, 2013, 02:09:15 PM
I would recommend all three disciplines - dance, Moves and figures.
For everyone. Alas, only if we have all the ice time we want!
I was all freestyle until hitting the wall aka ISI FS5. I then started testing USFS which means MITF patterns are added. At that point I was already familiar with MITF at the first 2 adult levels thru group lessons. I don't mind doing them, but don't enjoy them in particular either.
Then I started ice dance and fell in love with it immediately despite being hopelessly tone-deaf. It just somehow gives me more sense of accomplishment. Have a great coach to partner with also helped.
Did just a tiny bit of figures here and there. They usually frustrate me lol.
Sadly all three of them need dead ice to practice effectively. I personally rank them as dance > MITF >> figures, YMMV :P
Quote from: jjane45 on June 07, 2013, 04:04:13 PM
For everyone. Alas, only if we have all the ice time we want!
I was all freestyle until hitting the wall aka ISI FS5. I then started testing USFS which means MITF patterns are added. At that point I was already familiar with MITF at the first 2 adult levels thru group lessons. I don't mind doing them, but don't enjoy them in particular either.
Then I started ice dance and fell in love with it immediately despite being hopelessly tone-deaf. It just somehow gives me more sense of accomplishment. Have a great coach to partner with also helped.
Did just a tiny bit of figures here and there. They usually frustrate me lol.
Sadly all three of them need dead ice to practice effectively. I personally rank them as dance > MITF >> figures, YMMV :P
Maybe I said this because I don't jump (anymore) and do all three of these disciplines.
I don't have the luxury of skating as much as I want BUT I do have the luxury of skating during dead-ice times. I have basically rewoven my career (as it were) so that I can skate during the day during dead ice times. This was after YEARS of working the 8-6 5-6 days a week, skate when you can type of schedule.
We also have a dance session where we do all of the compulsory dances as a session - so everyone knows what you are doing and so we don't run into each other (well, not much anyway...)
But for the original poster you are probably right: Dance and Moves and then maybe Figures.
All three of these will teach you how to skate (which is what the OP needs to do) but dance is fun for sure!
As a dancer of course I would say do dance. There are so many possibilities with dance--solo, partnered, social. Also I have seen at the club where I skate very beginner skaters learning and testing dances. Granted they only get as far as a couple of tests before having to improve their skills a lot but it is really nice to see that "pass" box checked on a test sheet.
Dance is also nice because you will be learning steps and patterns and eventually turns will get thrown in there. You will learn a lot dancing, progressives, chasses, cross rolls, swing rolls, edge changes, eventually mohawks, three turns, choctaws. I am sure you would learn the same in moves and to some extent figures but I would rather ice dance.
Eventually when you are more advanced in dances you can travel to social ice dance weekends which I know a lot of people really enjoy.
Figures is almost impossible to find a place to practice unless you're at one of the handful of rinks with patch sessions.
Quote from: AgnesNitt on June 07, 2013, 05:12:43 PM
Figures is almost impossible to find a place to practice unless you're at one of the handful of rinks with patch sessions.
I do figures all the time at Public Sessions - I have even done them in crowded (for Portland) publics - you just set up in the middle - and know that people will have no idea what you are doing and so you have to bail all the time.
But it can be done.
Patch sessions are great but there are alternatives!
Thanks for everyone's advice! If I'm going to do dance, I'm probably going to be the only dancer in my rink. Some of the coaches have done dance before, but not the students. Everyone's doing freestyle. I think that's going to make it more exciting. I'll talk to my coach again about my possible options and see if we can have a test dance session.
Quote from: Live2Sk8 on June 07, 2013, 12:03:55 PM
Sampaguita, I'm working on flip and lutz and I never learned bunny hop.
Live2Sk8, I wish I could do USFS. :( Bunny hops are a required move in ISI, and my strictly-ISI coach needs me to do it well to give me a pass.
Quote from: FigureSpins on June 07, 2013, 03:42:22 PM
FWIW, the ISI test standards do NOT specify whether the pass-through knee has to be bent or straight. The op's coach is specifying it for some reason - perhaps the OP isn't bringing the free leg forward at all?
Nope, my free leg goes forward. The way i do it is: initially straight at the back, then bends as it goes forward. Coach says I lose all the momentum from the supposed swing, and he wants the swing to be fully straight back to front. I think it's better technique-wise, but I find it more difficult to ensure that I land on my right toe pick when the toe pick points upward at the end of the swing (if it bends, the toe pick points a bit downward, so it's easier to land).
Quote from: sampaguita on June 07, 2013, 08:54:22 PMbut I find it more difficult to ensure that I land on my right toe pick when the toe pick points upward at the end of the swing
Erm, I'm no coach but I don't think your right foot should be pointed upwards (ie flexed) at the end of the swing if your free leg is straight at that point. Point your right toes/foot more by the end of the swing forwards instead. That means your right toe pick (still pointed) will then automatically be in the right position to land on as your legs come closer together again for the landing/ transfer to the L foot glide. ;)
I got really frustrated trying to jump as an adult. Things I could do as a child, I now find pretty scary. As my coach teaches both free and dance, I started to learn dance too. It was something completely new to learn. I love it and now only do dance. :)
You don't have to have everything perfect to begin dancing - it will help you to improve your posture, timing, extension, edges and flow over the ice amonst other things. Even if you don't have tests available in dance locally, it will still help your skating overall. Nothing to stop you continuing to learn to jump either if you want to! :D
Quote from: taka on June 08, 2013, 08:26:49 AM
Erm, I'm no coach but I don't think your right foot should be pointed upwards (ie flexed) at the end of the swing if your free leg is straight at that point. Point your right toes/foot more by the end of the swing forwards instead. That means your right toe pick (still pointed) will then automatically be in the right position to land on as your legs come closer together again for the landing/ transfer to the L foot glide. ;)
I got really frustrated trying to jump as an adult. Things I could do as a child, I now find pretty scary. As my coach teaches both free and dance, I started to learn dance too. It was something completely new to learn. I love it and now only do dance. :)
You don't have to have everything perfect to begin dancing - it will help you to improve your posture, timing, extension, edges and flow over the ice amonst other things. Even if you don't have tests available in dance locally, it will still help your skating overall. Nothing to stop you continuing to learn to jump either if you want to! :D
Everything taka said -
And yes POINT YOUR TOES!!!
Are you basing future jumping possibility on the fact that you aren't doing so great with bunny hop? If so, let me tell you this. I did not realize until returning to skating after so many years, how difficult and scary bunny hops are. I bet once you get past bunny hops and have stronger basic skills, you will be able to learn basic jumps much more easily.
Are there non-competition skate shows to enter? You should be able to do fun skate show programs without having to do jumps.
Thanks taka and icedancer for your bunny hop tips! I was able to run through the bunny hop off-ice and have finally understood how my coach wants it to look like. Of course on-ice it's a lot scarier, but coach said my on-ice bunny hop has improved (although not yet passing according to his standards).
@treesprite: I've gone as far as the waltz and the half-flip (my former coach has actually approved of my bunny hop, but my current coach is a lot more strict). However, I could not get them consistent -- I would always hesitate on the entrance. Working on my edges helped, but a LOT of work still has to be done. Bunny hops are the hardest of the three jumps that I've been taught, though. What was ISI thinking putting bunny hops in Delta? xD
Unfortunately, I couldn't get into any non-comp skate shows in my rink. Their basic requirement to get into a show is FS3, so if I wanted to perform, it would have to be during a test or a competition.
On a side note, I already started my first dance lesson. It was much harder than I thought it would be! Chasses were actually a bit scary, and I couldn't complete the pattern because of a lack in stroking power. After the lesson though, I could do chasses to the beat, although it's far from pretty.
The thought of having to do progressives make me shudder. My crossovers aren't that good yet, and to do them to a beat is really hard. I found the lesson fun though, and I hope the next lessons will be more fulfillling.
Good to hear you enjoyed your dance lessons. With everything in skating it will come along with practice.
When doing things to a beat just slow it down. If the beat is a 1,2,3,4 hold everything for 4 counts until it feels good and gradually speed it up.
I'm really weird. I'd tell you to go ALL the way through MITF and then worry about jumping later. I feel very much more confident working exclusively on edging and turns. I have a weird weird imbalance of pretty good edging and turns (I can check my best turns fully around a hockey circle...) and the only 3 I have left now is my LBI and then all my 3s are done and then it's bracket and counters/etc. However my only jump is a waltz jump, and I can just barely 2 foot spin. I didn't even work on jumps and spins at all yet. Can do mohawks backward and forward from all edges, including forward left inside to right back inside. Fast/good stroker, too, though backwards I'm lacking compared to forwards.
Anyway, I'd say do all the MITF tests possible. I know a guy (crazy self taught guy like me) who can do double jumps and still has terrible edges and stroking. It's a waste. The edges are what impart any amount of grace and power in your skating and the foundation upon which your skating goes on. That guy even told me "Yeah don't do what I did." With him, he got skates and a coach wanted him to skate in circles, he fired the coach, bought a book learning to jump, and can do doubles now, but just looks horrendous to watch to the trained eye on the ice, because his flow and actual skating isn't good. You can in fact be able to do jumps and look terrible, and then only be able to do turns and stuff like that and look good, because the edging is what imparts your gracefulness to the ice. If you can't hold edges long enough, you're always gonna look terrible compared to someone that can hold them.
To me I feel learning all your edging and turns is most economical. It's like a pyramid and the edges are your base. No base, you can't build as big of a pyramid. So just concentrate ONLY on edges right now, edges and power production off ice, then later once your edges are mastered go for your jumps and spins. That's at least my plan.
supra, I totally agree! But can someone please enlighten me: why doesn't the ISI have MITF tests? ???
Glad to hear you are enjoying dance. It's my DD's favorite. She competed solo dance at several competitions including ISI Worlds. I think ISI level 1 is just chasses and progressives. At level 2, there is swing rolls and Dutch Waltz. The coach can pass the skater in the individual dances through level 6. Then you need to have Panel of 3 judges. My DD took her dance 7 test (equivalent of USFS Silver) at a District test session before a competition. She is 1/3 through the USFS Silver tests hoping to take the American Waltz this summer.
FWIW, I find bunny hops kind of scary. I have all my jumps through lutz. My coach wanted my to do bunny hops down the rink as a warm-up. They were super small and super slow. I wouldn't give up on jumping and spinning just yet. Could you hold the boards or your coach's hand to build your confidence?
Quote from: PinkLaces on June 13, 2013, 11:23:42 PM
FWIW, I find bunny hops kind of scary. I have all my jumps through lutz. My coach wanted my to do bunny hops down the rink as a warm-up. They were super small and super slow. I wouldn't give up on jumping and spinning just yet. Could you hold the boards or your coach's hand to build your confidence?
For some reason bunny hops I don't really get either. Maybe I should practice them anyway. I just went straight to waltz as it was easier to understand in my head. To me, no edges=no compute. Waltz to me was easy to understand as I just saw it as a 2 footed 3 turn.
One of the reasons you should just work on your edging and turns is (ala MITF tests,) it's what you need
right now. You can think about being competitive and cool and passing tests and all that later. Right now you need to learn your edges. Then think about what you wanna do after. If you truly cannot gain the strength/power needed for freestyle, and would be content and happy doing dance, then do dance. But for NOW, you need edges. Whatever you do you'll need edges. So just work on your edging, turns and stroking, and once those are very good, figure things out as far as longterm things go.
One thing that really struck me and made me OCD about edges, my old coach/advice guy, he told me referring to people who don't learn edging well "They're setting themselves up to be on the fast track to mediocrity." Those are strong words (he's very blunt like that) but it's true.
Quote from: sampaguita on June 13, 2013, 10:18:36 PM
supra, I totally agree! But can someone please enlighten me: why doesn't the ISI have MITF tests? ???
ISI tests incorporate edges, turns and steps into each level to make them more fun for recreational skaters. USFS created the Moves test structure to replace figures tests and create stronger competitive skaters. Different goals, different structures.
I'd suggest dance and MITF for now, since the better your edgework is, the better you will be in freestyle. My coach has noted that since figures became obsolete, it has taken skaters much longer to get their Axel, because they don't have the necessary control of that FO edge on takeoff. I've been doing just dance and skills (Canada's solution to getting rid of figures, they're similar to MITF in some ways) for 2 years due to injury, but when I've tried the easier singles, I've noticed an increase in height and takeoff control. Of course, an increase in height comes with a change in landing timing, but that's ok, I'll take the anticipated landings for now ;)
Quote from: supra on June 14, 2013, 01:27:22 AM
If you truly cannot gain the strength/power needed for freestyle, and would be content and happy doing dance, then do dance. But for NOW, you need edges.
I agree that edges are the foundation for everything, but dancers need excellent power to complete their patterns, too - I wouldn't say dancers are those who lacked the power and strength for freestyle. Dance is a different discipline, not necessarily just something to fall back upon for those who don't want to jump. JMO, of course.
Quote from: DrillingSkills on June 14, 2013, 08:26:02 AM
I agree that edges are the foundation for everything, but dancers need excellent power to complete their patterns, too - I wouldn't say dancers are those who lacked the power and strength for freestyle.
I just learned this firsthand from my first lesson. Those patterns are hard to complete!!! If anything, dance needs a lot of speed, power, and control. The style may be different from freestyle, but the basics, I think, are the same.
Quote from: blue111moon on June 14, 2013, 07:25:43 AM
ISI tests incorporate edges, turns and steps into each level to make them more fun for recreational skaters. USFS created the Moves test structure to replace figures tests and create stronger competitive skaters. Different goals, different structures.
I still think ISI should have an MITF track for non-jumpers. I like watching edges, not in the figures way, but as footwork sequences in freestyle programs. I think I'm not the only one who feels held back by the ISI system that requires jumps and spins at every level....maybe I should write a petition, lol!
Quote from: sampaguita on June 14, 2013, 08:54:51 AM
I still think ISI should have an MITF track for non-jumpers. I like watching edges, not in the figures way, but as footwork sequences in freestyle programs. I think I'm not the only one who feels held back by the ISI system that requires jumps and spins at every level....maybe I should write a petition, lol!
Maybe you shouldn't. These stupid, vague petitions are just Internet spam attractors. There's someone who regularly tries to solicit signers for her "Bring Back Figures!" Petition - the resolution is so vague, it doesn't have a prayer. I refuse to sign it because she doesn't even know what she wants!
ISI is fine the way it is - it serves a population that DOESN'T need Moves. Just in case you didn't understand what the PP stated, the MIF patterns were developed by the USFSA to replace Figures.
These are both US organizations competing for the figure skating market and the ISI is losing ground. I know that you're in one of the ISI Asian countries, so you don't know how contentious the situation is here, with USFSA skaters belittling ISI skaters and ISI skaters pointing out the obvious (if you're not going qualifying, why pay the USFSA all that money?). Mandatory Moves tests are expensive and adding another set of tests to ISI takes away from their affordability approach.
While you may believe Moves are the greatest, many skaters don't agree. Moreover, the ISI set up their rec skating program to allow competition events of any type, so a Moves event isn't out of the question. Why reinvent the wheel?
I take it your nation's non-ISI skating federation doesn't have a Moves discipline. Petition them to expand beyond their limited structure instead of the ISI.
Quote from: Isk8NYC on June 14, 2013, 09:58:15 AM
While you may believe Moves are the greatest, many skaters don't agree. Moreover, the ISI set up their rec skating program to allow competition events of any type, so a Moves event isn't out of the question. Why reinvent the wheel?
I am aware of the Footwork competition in ISI, but even then, you'd have to pass the actual level to qualify. For example, to have a footwork program for FS2, you need to have all the FS2 jumps and spins to pass the test. So theoretically, even if you do know the footwork for FS10 but you don't know how to do bunny hops, you'll never be able to perform a Footwork routine.
Quote from: Isk8NYC on June 14, 2013, 09:58:15 AM
Mandatory Moves tests are expensive and adding another set of tests to ISI takes away from their affordability approach.
What I was suggesting was not that ISI copy the USFS testing system, where you have separate MITF and Freeskate tests. I was think something more like Moves 1-10, similar to Figures 1-10 or Dance 1-10 or Couple 1-10. You don't need to do everything, but nothing prevents you from spending more money and doing all disciplines. I don't see how that can be bad for ISI.
Quote from: Isk8NYC on June 14, 2013, 09:58:15 AM
I take it your nation's non-ISI skating federation doesn't have a Moves discipline. Petition them to expand beyond their limited structure instead of the ISI.
They don't. The federation was made
solely for the purpose of sending competitive skaters to ISU events. Everyone interested in ISU is required to start out in ISI (I think that's part of being an ISI member rink), and then "graduate" to the federation when they start working on axels and doubles. Because of that, we don't have anything analogous to USFS Basic Skills. However, as in the US, joining the federation is more expensive than going through ISI.
They also don't accept adult skaters in their testing/competition scheme, probably because no adult has yet showed interest in joining the ISU Adult Worlds. I would like to petition them to change that someday, but I'd need to have advanced skating skills by then if my petition is to have any chance of being granted.
Quote from: Isk8NYC on June 14, 2013, 09:58:15 AM
Maybe you shouldn't. These stupid, vague petitions are just Internet spam attractors.
Geez, Isk8NYC, you seem to take things
way too seriously. :)
Quote from: supra on June 14, 2013, 01:27:22 AM
For some reason bunny hops I don't really get either. Maybe I should practice them anyway. I just went straight to waltz as it was easier to understand in my head. To me, no edges=no compute. Waltz to me was easy to understand as I just saw it as a 2 footed 3 turn.
My new coach uses bunny hops as a warm up, because she feels that they help with jumps...the roll off the toe pick on the edge jumps.
Quote from: sampaguita on June 15, 2013, 01:47:39 AM
Geez, Isk8NYC, you seem to take things way too seriously. :)
People who start these useless petitions invariably make pests out of themselves by interrupting real conversations with "Sign my petition!" on any open channel. It's really annoying.
Quote from: sampaguita on June 13, 2013, 10:18:36 PM
supra, I totally agree! But can someone please enlighten me: why doesn't the ISI have MITF tests? ???
Because ISI is a recreational skating assosciation and it does that vey well. MITF tests are part of the USFSA qualifications for preparing and identifying skaters with sufficient skills for national and international competitions. IOW, if a kid can't pass MITF, they don't have the skills to compete.
MITF for adults and non-competitive skaters fills other roles (maybe ego, maybe pass tests to qualify as a coach) but for USFSA it's basically a money thing (as it has been explained to me).
Quote from: sampaguita on June 15, 2013, 01:47:39 AMSo theoretically, even if you do know the footwork for FS10 but you don't know how to do bunny hops, you'll never be able to perform a Footwork routine.
"Theoretically" this would never happen - why even suggest it? Honestly I feel like this thread is making a mountain out of a molehill. If you can't do bunny hops, work on them until you can.. it's really that simple. Don't make excuses and lament about how you have "no options" in ISI's test structure just because you have a coach who expects more than the bare minimum. You do have options, you're just looking for an easy way out because you don't want to put in the time to learn to do them well enough for your coach.
I'm going to say it because it seems that everyone is to polite to do it, but honestly most of the things you have "struggled" to learn are really really really REALLY basic and not things that
should trip up most skaters for this long or make them feel like they can't continue in the test structure (if you were at FS4 and feeling this way about FS5, that would be different, but you're not at a level where you should get "stuck").. most people work hard to learn new skills, and once they do, they move on to other skills. They don't obsess for two years and post countless threads and videos for very very simple skills. Just practice more, and spend less time complaining/obsessing, and maybe you'll make more progress.
If you want things to work on OTHER than what ISI offers you there is absolutely no one stopping you. Not being able to take USFS tests shouldn't stop you from learning the patterns and practicing them if you wanted to... the first 2 tests are fairly straightforward and easy to work on independently.
I agree with "work on bunny hops until you get them...". If being able to compete is what is important.
However, if you can't pass a level and are basically stuck at not competing ever, than tell your coach what you want to learn, skip that skill and just skate. Can you do exhibitions? Could you even just learn a program for fun to practice? Screw the levels.
I've reached the point where I can't test anymore. I could have stuck dance out a bit, but the time between test sessions was so long that it just cost too much money to train and upkeep dances. So I dance them for fun, and do freeskate for fun. No more tests and no more competing. It kind of sucks because I like to test, but I reached my max. I still have a lot of fun going to the rink to skate (though sadly, my coach moved...)
I'm still in beginning freestyle stages, but what I've learned about skating is: You'll only improve as much as you try. I don't mean the OP isn't trying, but I've been reading her posts and watching video clips and it seems there's a reluctance to move on to more advanced skills. Perhaps it's a case of being debilitated by perfectionism?
Quote from: sarahspins on June 16, 2013, 02:22:46 PMI'm going to say it because it seems that everyone is to polite to do it, but honestly most of the things you have "struggled" to learn are really really really REALLY basic and not things that should trip up most skaters for this long or make them feel like they can't continue in the test structure (if you were at FS4 and feeling this way about FS5, that would be different, but you're not at a level where you should get "stuck").. most people work hard to learn new skills, and once they do, they move on to other skills. They don't obsess for two years and post countless threads and videos for very very simple skills. Just practice more, and spend less time complaining/obsessing, and maybe you'll make more progress.
So I think the above comments make sense. I've experienced rather fast progress for an adult skater, and most of that I attribute to my coach, who doesn't let me psych myself out (by thinking, "Omg I'm not supposed to be ready for that yet!"). She urges me to move forward always, not so much that I injure myself but definitely on a constant trajectory to start the next thing. My most valuable lesson has been that you don't have to master the first skill before attempting to learn the second -- the second will more likely help improve the first. So maybe the OP could benefit from moving forward rather than getting "stuck" on the bunny hop. I'm only at pre-bronze level but I'm working on things from bronze, silver, and gold levels. It keeps things motivating.
Quote from: sarahspins on June 16, 2013, 02:22:46 PM
if you were at FS4 and feeling this way about FS5, that would be different, but you're not at a level where you should get "stuck"...
I agree with most of your post but would like to comment on this. The "wall" is different for every skater, and it could be the double axel or the backward crossover. I have friends who work hard, very hard and not achieve what OP has achieved beautifully in comparable time frame.
That being said, maybe try enjoy skating in a different way. Don't let the testing structure define you as a skater :) :) With time and practice you'll get there!
Quote from: sarahspins on June 16, 2013, 02:22:46 PM
You do have options, you're just looking for an easy way out because you don't want to put in the time to learn to do them well enough for your coach.
I think you're missing my point, sarahspins. Let me explain. :) My learning style is just different from most: I am only able to jump when I have secure edges. It's a handicap, but one that I have to deal with in the meantime. That's why I was looking for ways to improve my edges (which will eventually help my jumps), but at the same time, be able to test or compete (anything performance-related). If you read my OP, that was all this was supposed to be about. I wasn't lamenting about the lack of options -- if you look at my OP, my coach actually gave me three. I have taken the dance option, and so far I am enjoying it.
What probably caused the confusion was how I "lamented" about the lack of an ISI MITF track, and it seems to be a more sensitive issue that I thought it would be. I just thought something like Moves 1-10 would be nice to add to the ISI structure, where skaters can perform programs without jumps or spins, but without the
compulsory patterns of Dance or Figures. I don't see why that is a bad thing to say.
Quote from: sarahspins on June 16, 2013, 02:22:46 PM
They don't obsess for two years and post countless threads and videos for very very simple skills.
Point taken. Thank you for your honesty.
Quote from: sarahonice on June 16, 2013, 11:40:57 PM
So maybe the OP could benefit from moving forward rather than getting "stuck" on the bunny hop.
Yes, that is exactly what I am doing now. I have decided to do dance and study other things, which will hopefully help me in my jumps in the future. I don't practice dance exclusively though -- every now and then I do a half-flip or two-foot spin, or I practice my mohawks and 3-turns.
Thanks to everyone for your suggestions!
Entry level ISI WeSkate and USFSA LTS classes are mass market group lessons, designed to please the majority market. That majority are kids whose play outside the rink includes running and jumping. Neither jumping nor falling is a big psychological problem for that majority.
USFSA has made Moves classes popular by requiring competitive skaters in other disciplines to do moves.
But Many rinks have "adult classes", typically designed for adults who don't want to jump. You could ask around local rinks to see if classes are available. They are a lot of fun.
In my neck of the woods, adult-oriented ISI group lessons would make economic sense. I have no idea whether that is true in other geographic areas.
BTW, Dance can be frustrating if you don't find a partner. Most would-be ice dancers don't. Moves has one really big plus. You can practice in almost any session that isn't too crowded. Not true of Dance.
Quote from: Query on June 17, 2013, 08:05:09 PM
USFSA has made Moves classes popular by requiring competitive skaters in other disciplines to do moves.
For the test skaters as well, not just those who compete :)
IMO, MITF tests are a way to prove basic skills that should have all been taught before the teaching of advanced skills (such as jumps and spins) but were not, because USFS does not have any mandatory basic skills per-requisites. Why on earth are forward crossovers at the same test level as jumps?
Technically, you 'learn' forward crossovers in what, Basic 4? This is before you learn to do any jumping, even half jumps or bunny hops. Though MITF are prerequisites if you have to pass them to compete freeskate, right?
Crossover and footwork proficiency improves with time and practice, and MITF will hold the same elements to a higher standard as you move up in levels.
I personally am becoming a better skater (flow, footwork, posture, edge security) from working my way through the MITF tests, though it is an expensive venture!
Quote from: sarahspins on June 16, 2013, 02:22:46 PM
I'm going to say it because it seems that everyone is to polite to do it, but honestly most of the things you have "struggled" to learn are really really really REALLY basic and not things that should trip up most skaters for this long or make them feel like they can't continue in the test structure (if you were at FS4 and feeling this way about FS5, that would be different, but you're not at a level where you should get "stuck").. most people work hard to learn new skills, and once they do, they move on to other skills. They don't obsess for two years and post countless threads and videos for very very simple skills. Just practice more, and spend less time complaining/obsessing, and maybe you'll make more progress.
I'm going to second this in a more friendly way :P
You seem to get stuck on things that you're not really stuck on if that makes sense. Your skills look good for someone at your level. If you wait until your three turns look like those of an Olympian before moving on to the next skill, you're going to feel stuck. Figure skating builds as you go - you learn the basics of something and move on and the next set of things in line improve upon the things you already learned.
I think you'd enjoy the sport a lot more, feel as if you're progressing more, and have more FUN if you didn't obsess so much over having perfect cross cuts or perfect edges. When was the last time you saw someone learning a toe loop with edges that looked like Kurt Browning's? Never. Because no one would ever progress if they completely perfected one skill before moving onto the next.
I think this is a bit of a 'perfectionist' tendency and I understand it will be hard to change that, but I really think it would be beneficial to start holding yourself to a more reasonable standard. I know you're thinking 'but that's just how I am - I need these things to be perfect before I can move on', and I get that. But let's say that you banish that thought for awhile and see how it goes :P See how it feels. See if you make some progress and if that feels good. I think you might be surprised.
If you don't want to jump, that's fine. Lots of adults don't. But if you DO - or if you want to progress on other skills like dance or moves - then it's time to let the need to be perfect go.
We can debate ISI vs USFS and other programs and moves vs. dance until we're all blue in the face. But that isn't the issue here.
I agree with Amy.
When I started skating, my first group instructor was a real perfectionist, who believed that each thing had to be perfect before you could move on to the next. He believed that each skill built on the one before, and so you couldn't expect to do the next thing well until the first thing was perfect. This may be true. But it was REALLY BORING. He wouldn't let us go on to anything else until our stroking was perfect, and nobody's stroking was ever good enough in his opinion.
So I promoted myself to the next class. People who stayed with him never got past stroking, gliding, and maybe crossovers. I've passed Gold MIF, Silver Free, and am on my Pre-Silver dances. Am I a perfect skater? No. But I'm continuing to progress, always going back to improve my basics, and am having a whole lot more fun. I'm a perfectionist, too, but sometimes there's something to be said for focusing on the process rather than the outcome.