I stumbled across this (http://ireallylikemylife.blogspot.com/2012/12/this-mornings-figure-skating-test.html) blog post from a skating judge. I think it's worth reading.
Wow. Talk about sour grapes.
It's a good thing this blogger doesn't post their name although I am sure if someone was interested they could find out who it is. Yikes.
Wow. Just wow.
I thought it was alright...
QuoteI thought it was alright...
Me too.
From the same judge
http://ireallylikemylife.blogspot.com/2011/07/colliding-worlds-of-hockey-and-figure.html
Quote from: jjane45 on May 15, 2013, 09:22:30 PM
I thought it was alright...
Same here, because they have a valid point. It's never the judge's fault if a skater fails a test... to put the blame on a judge is just silly.
(edited because I totally said that wrong - oops!)
I don't think there's anything wrong with that blog. Failing two out of six tests isn't harsh; it's actually a decent percentage if we're talking about tests above Juvenile Level. The blogger is blunter than the norm but is basically stating the truth - there are money-grubbing coaches out there who are more concerned with keeping parents and skaters happy (and continuing to pay for lessons) than in teaching correct technique - or who just don't know the correct technique and can't be bothered to learn. Blaming the judges when a skater fails is easier than figuring out what the skater didn't do and fixing it.
Most judges won't come out and say that to the skater's face, though. So putting it out there in this format is one way to get the word out.
I don't see any problem with it either. In fact, I agree with the judge that coaches have to focus on the foundations. However, I am not a judge nor a coach, and nor have I ever taken tests under USFS, so my perspective may be different.
If the skater has done everything the coach has asked of them and hasn't gone to pieces with nerves and the skater fails the test, the fault lies either with the coach for failing to teach the skater everything they needed to learn for that test or with the judge for raising the standards above the norm which the coach wasnt aware of.
So assuming the judge hasn't changed their standards, the coach is at fault.
Quote from: blue111moon on May 16, 2013, 07:24:52 AM
I don't think there's anything wrong with that blog. Failing two out of six tests isn't harsh; it's actually a decent percentage if we're talking about tests above Juvenile Level. The blogger is blunter than the norm but is basically stating the truth - there are money-grubbing coaches out there who are more concerned with keeping parents and skaters happy (and continuing to pay for lessons) than in teaching correct technique - or who just don't know the correct technique and can't be bothered to learn. Blaming the judges when a skater fails is easier than figuring out what the skater didn't do and fixing it.
Most judges won't come out and say that to the skater's face, though. So putting it out there in this format is one way to get the word out.
I agree. If the judge gave no explanation for failing the skater, then that wouldn't be very helpful, but judges give comments on the score sheets so the skaters know what they did well or poorly on the test. Additionally, the higher the test level, the more judges are required and the higher level judges they need to be. It's true that some judges are pickier overall than others, but those picky judges are generally picky across the board, not just for specific skaters. And if the picky judge didn't think you were good enough, you only need the two other judges to pass you and you pass. It's a fair system, IMO. Oh, and I do know one or two coaches who spend their time flattering the skater instead of correcting bad technique. I used to be coached by one of them.
In defense of coaches who have skaters fail a test now & then, there are occasionally times when I've put a skater out knowing that they would likely fail the test, & I know other coaches do this too. Examples are: a skater about to leave for college, given one last shot to get through a level. Skater who isn't working hard, needs a wakeup call. Skater trying to get through a level in time to qualify for regionals, start throwing the test out there to see where we are & what happens. Scarcity of test sessions--when one comes along, take advantage of it. Skater has terrible performance anxiety, needs to be in front of judges on a regular basis to have any hope of learning to keep it together.
Another example, at least in my area, is when the rules/elements change, like Moves did in 2010. Big adjustment all around, skaters failing left & right, partly because judges weren't following what was put out in the seminars & we didn't know what they were looking for *coughjuniormovescough*.
I know that some coaches don't do a good job. But one skater on one test session does not tell the tale of that coach's overall ability.
Unless you overhear that coach telling the skater that they didn't pass because the judges are biased against their club or some such nonsense. Sadly, I have observed that. Blessedly, it's a rare occurrence. Most coaches work very hard to help their skaters improve and won't put a bad test out there without a good reason, such as the ones phoenix notes.
Okay, my DD is a judge. She does the lower levels, thus, she's dealing with the younger skaters (or late starters, or adults). She hates giving a retry (not a fail, they call it a retry). She is a skater herself. She still tests and competes, and, darnit, she's gotten a lot of retries over the years. She also thought that some judges were "out to get her" or "just weren't fair" - and, to be fair, some are harsher than others. Older, wiser, she now knows that the judges that were "tough" were trying to get her to be solid at the lower level so that the higher levels would come easier. She's not a good tester: she always skates "down" in a test situation, and she certainly is not a natural dancer.
Now, as a judge, she goes quite a distance to accommodate test days, often at a loss of income. She is in an arena for many cold hours, for no pay, and hopefully a decent hot meal in the process. For that, she has to deal with coaches, small children, test chairs, and tons of paperwork. At the end of it, she gets a small gratuity (say, $25 in value). She does it because she wants to give back to the sport, and she has a huge commitment to building young skaters and giving them a solid test experience. When skaters go out on the ice bright and shiny and excited, it's very hard to give them a retry, but, she has to if the test isn't ready because, otherwise, the skater will have the wrong knowledge of their skating level.
I can certainly tell you that she has a solid knowledge of which coaches prepare their skaters well; which ones test "just to try"; and which ones do exactly what the blog describes, which is pushing the kid thru before they are ready so that parents are excited about how fast their kid is progressing. She can't tell a skater any of this. All she can do is give solid feedback about, say, "the wide-step on the mohawk needs to be addressed" or "edges are not strong enough", "more flow needed", "jump is cheated, needs more rotation, tighter air position". She doesn't want to take the shine off a kid's day, but, it is heartbreaking to see so much effort and realizing that the skater honestly doesn't know that they are not ready for the test. She also judges at comps, and she sees the same kids struggling in competitions as they are punching above their weight. And, sadly, she often sees the same kids hanging up their skates because they're tired of being unsuccessful.
She's wiped teary eyes, cleaned up snotty noses, and given encouragement to persevere to small skaters who have not been successful in a test. She meets with coaches and skaters to give them feedback when they ask (and has had some nasty experiences, but, most are nice). Years ago, one judge told her that if she was going to get into this, that she'd better have a thick skin, and a real passion for the sport, because, it certainly is not a job for the faint or heart or for anyone who doesn't believe that volunteering is it's own reward.
Sk8tmum, thank you so much for sharing!
We have one nasty judge in our area. She's awful. Truly. Makes kids cry with the remarks she writes and pretty much fails every test she sees. And I'm pretty sure she leaves a bad taste for the sport in many people's mouthes which is too bad because the majority of the judges that we have are kind, patient, and genuinely love the sport. It's a shame that this one lady sets the tone for our area. I think we should focus more on the positives like Sk8mum's daughter otherwise, if these GOOD people feel judged by the actions of their peers, maybe they won't stay in the sport.
I think most judges are like Sk8tmum's DD and I'd hope that most coaches are like phoenix. I think at times as skaters we need to step back and remember that everyone involved in the sport be they skater or judge are doing their bit for the love of the sport and those judging and coaching are trying to share that love with the next generation of skaters.
Sometimes, the emotion of the occasion means that we don't always recognise that and sometimes statements are made that aren't quite true.
I am curious- those who thought that the blog was outrageous and with a sour tone, could you share why you think this?
bluntly honest but a bit generalized :)
I do believe judges draw conclusions based on multiple students, multiple test sessions.
Quote from: jjane45 on May 17, 2013, 01:33:32 PMI do believe judges draw conclusions based on multiple students, multiple test sessions.
I agree... and within each club there are coaches who known for having their skaters well prepared when they put them out to test and others that just aren't, and it's not just the judges who can pick up on this. I really think it goes beyond an ability to teach skating technique but also in how well (or not well) the coach teaches their students how to practice, how to do off ice warm ups, etc... as well as the mental preparation for test sessions (my coach did a lot of that with me before my last test, including coaching me from the boards so I'd be comfortable not having her on the ice with me - it seems like such a small thing, but I think it helped a lot).
My daughter recently failed a couple of tests - I guess that kids these days have few opportunities to fail in life so in a perverse way maybe it does help them learn strength of character.
She failed her novice test at first try and her junior MIF (twice before passing). The second time she failed her junior MIF a judge actually came to find me in the cafe to tell me one of her exercises had been taught to her wrong but she had really strong edges and he really liked her skating - which was so sweet of him. (I nearly fell off my chair!) She herself sorted that one out and checked up the exercise herself.
With the novice test it was two of strictest judges but they were so lovely with her afterwards telling her positives about her skating (musicality, speed and flow) and how not to over-think elements and deal with nerves. She sailed the test next time round really feeling positive.
I didn't think the judge was too bad for somebody having a rant!
I thought she was nasty and narcissistic, and I read several of her other posts to see if it carried through. It did. Here's a portion of the skating post:
"And yet, they are saddled with coaches who are money grubbing low life thieves who don't care about proper technique--all they care about is keeping the parents happy by pushing the skaters up through the levels at a rapid pace, making themselves look like super coaches in the process.
And when these skaters tank at competitions, they blame the judges. Or other skaters or coaches for psyching out their skater.
And when these skaters come across a judge such as myself at a test session, and we fail them, or refuse to give high marks if we pass them, they call us too critical and picky. Or suggest we don't like the skater for personal reasons.
Very early on one thing became glaringly clear to me: I better be judging for love of the sport, because at one time or another, each and every skater I come in contact with will hate my guts. I will have failed them, or one of their family members or friends. Or perhaps I gave them what was in their mind undeserved low marks. At some point in time, they will wish I had taken a long walk off a short pier.
Then so be it." [Emphasis added.]
This kind of public statement is unbecoming conduct for someone judging others even if it is anonymous. Calling all coaches who think their skaters should have passed "money-grubbing thieves"? Really? There are many other reasons a coach might put a skater on the ice who is not quite ready than that they are a "money-grubbing thief." And it surprises her that immature kids who fail a test might blame the judge, although she doesn't say how she knows this? Finally, why on earth would she be judging for anything OTHER than love of the sport? Power? Money? Unending gratefulness? I don't think failing two skaters out of six is necessarily unreasonable, but this person does not seem to me to have what we in the biz call "a judicial temperament." I'm glad she is in Chicago and not here!
I agree with sk8lady. I would want to ask that blogging judge: Did you go and talk to the coaches afterwards? Did you tell them that their skaters have poor technique and are trained improperly? I would highly doubt it. Writing on a blog in this way is doing nothing for the progress of the sport.
As a judge I totally agree with the above statements by slusher and sk8lady - this blog post is so negative and condescending.
Also USFS has made it very clear that we are not supposed to post stuff like this publicly or make any public remarks about tests we have judged etc.
I know that the kids are sometimes scared of us and parents and skaters are sometimes surprised to know that we love our sport and are there to do a job - we had a group recently that had no idea that we would do critiques if asked -
I love judging but you do have to be tough-skinned sometimes to do it!
I have a sneaky suspicion I might know who this judge is and in some respects, while maybe not put in the best of ways and she/he could have chosen better words to express their thoughts, I know who the comment about money grubbing coaches may be directed at (and this judge has probably overheard these particular coaches that were singled out in the blog blaming the judges for the student not passing instead of reading the comments and using it as constructive feedback to improve the test for next go) as there are some coaches in the Chicago area that put out MIF tests as soon as the skater can get through it without major mistakes (falls, foot down) and then seem surprised when the skater gets a retry on a higher level (Intermediate or higher) when it looks like they are "walking" through the test then blame the judges for being picky. IMO, it's unfair to the judges for the coach to blame them for the retry in most situations (probably 95% of the time). I don't think the judge was saying ALL coaches blame the judges for retries nor is this judge saying that all coaches whose students get a retry are money grubbing, just that there appears to be a pattern with a certain coach or group of coaches where the students go out unprepared to meet passing standards.
I believe Xanboni may be from the same area as this judge. Here's some comments regarding 'pushing' kids through levels towards the latter section of this post. MAybe it's an issue peculiar to the area where there's an overabundance of coaches.
http://xan-boni.blogspot.com/2011/03/another-post-about-skipping-levels.html
I've never seen this in my area or even heard a comment about it from any parent in the club or any coach I know.
I don't know the blogging judge or the area but I can think of a couple lovcal coaches who fit that description, harsh as it may be. Besides, coaches malign judges right and left at every competition and test session and tar the whole panel with the same brush. The only sad thing about that blog that I see is that the coaches who fit the description won't see themselves in the rant.
I know my coach doesn't have much experience with adults, because in my area, it's difficult to find coaches who do. When we began working on my last test, she told me straight up, "I have never taken this test or prepared a skater for this test before." She thought I might be ready. She told me she thought I had a 50/50 chance. We put it out there, and I failed, badly, for three reasons:
1. A truly bad test day -- skating below my average ability
2. Generally didn't meet the standards of the test
3. Had been taught one thing wrong -- another adult skater from my rink who has a different coach was also doing it wrong
Do I think my coach is a money-grabbing thief? Absolutely not. Did I blame her? No. Did I blame the judges? No. It was a learning experience for both of us that made me a better skater. I hope the judges know that and didn't go away with a sour taste in their mouths.
I don't think the judges will hold anything against you or your coach as long as you fix the reasons for the failure the next time you take the test. Generally it takes a pattern of errors before judges notice coaches in a negative manner - consistently putting skaters out who aren't even close to being ready, failing to fix errors or address issues that caused skaters to fail, having several skaters demonstrate the same errors, etc.
I've noticed with judges, too, that if you skate an element poorly but they think you can do it better (like if you were nervous and were shaky on a move as a result) they will let you do a do over on the particular element. I know a few that have passed as a result because the judge could tell they were nervous and gave them the benefit of the doubt.
In my case I had to reskate an element that was left out due to a misunderstanding and nailed it, however, it did not get counted. I was also REALLY sick that day so it wasn't my best test overall. But I did like how the judge gave me a chance to at least show I could do the element.
Quote from: VAsk8r on May 21, 2013, 08:50:40 PM
3. Had been taught one thing wrong -- another adult skater from my rink who has a different coach was also doing it wrong
What was it? Let us learn from your experience. I am just starting to work on a test my coach has not coached before.
Quote from: nicklaszlo on May 22, 2013, 04:22:53 PM
What was it? Let us learn from your experience. I am just starting to work on a test my coach has not coached before.
I'm curious too. As a judge I have seen adults doing the wrong moves at times - especially when the deadline for the "old move" was September 1 and the "new Move" starts at that time -- we see these mistakes in the October and November test sessions --
It's important for the adults to stay on top of the test requirements !!
I don't think the judge was singling out that experience of the coach not teaching one move correctly to a skater because they'd never had a skater on that test before. I am suspecting he/she is seeing a pattern of "throw crap at the wall" tests
Quote from: VAsk8r on May 21, 2013, 08:50:40 PM
I know my coach doesn't have much experience with adults, because in my area, it's difficult to find coaches who do. When we began working on my last test, she told me straight up, "I have never taken this test or prepared a skater for this test before." She thought I might be ready. She told me she thought I had a 50/50 chance. We put it out there, and I failed, badly, for three reasons:
Okay, part of this that doesn't make sense to me, since they removed the forward 3's pattern from pre-bronze, it's not like *any* of the patterns are different than standard track tests. Yes the foci may be different for some, but the moves are fundamentally still taught and performed the same.
I'm also curious as to which move you were doing "wrong" that was also being done incorrectly by another skater with another coach. At my rink the major differences have to do with the optional start and patterns, but once you are skating the moves most skaters look
very similar.
I was missing a loop jump in my bronze free test. They don't specifically mention any of them but they expect a loop, flip or lutz.
Quote from: davincisop on May 22, 2013, 10:07:58 PM
I was missing a loop jump in my bronze free test. They don't specifically mention any of them but they expect a loop, flip or lutz.
When did you take that? The current rulebook says:
1. At least three different single jumps of which one must be a Salchow and one must be a toe loop (each performed as a solo jump, not in combination or sequent)/
2. One jump combination consisting of a waltz jump and a toe loop (no turn or change of foot between jumps)
Adult silver wants a flip and a loop. Lutz required in Adult Gold.
Have these changed?
Quote from: icedancer2 on May 22, 2013, 10:19:57 PM
Have these changed?
No. Davincisop was missing the third jump, which is often a loop. I would add that in theory it could be an axel.
Quote from: nicklaszlo on May 22, 2013, 10:41:02 PM
No. Davincisop was missing the third jump, which is often a loop. I would add that in theory it could be an axel.
Or a lutz or flip.
Quote from: AgnesNitt on May 19, 2013, 05:53:19 PM
I believe Xanboni may be from the same area as this judge. Here's some comments regarding 'pushing' kids through levels towards the latter section of this post. MAybe it's an issue peculiar to the area where there's an overabundance of coaches.
http://xan-boni.blogspot.com/2011/03/another-post-about-skipping-levels.html
I've never seen this in my area or even heard a comment about it from any parent in the club or any coach I know.
This actually ties in with something I've been thinking about. A few weeks ago, I wanted to take my Aussie Skate Free Skate 4 test. So did another girl, 8 years old, with a different coach. At our rink, Aussie Skate tests are done once a month before actual judges.
My coach didn't like the idea, because she said I wasn't backwards enough on my landings and she didn't want any soft-hearted judges putting me up before I was ready. I accepted that immediately (primarily because I knew it was true) and carried on. The 8 year old insisted she wanted to test. Her coach let her. The judges, somehow, passed her.
Watching the 8 year old practice on Tuesday, and she was no more backwards on her jumps than I was; her camel spin was actually worse than mine and I don't even know how someone's camel spin can be worse than mine. This kid gets really amped about having to win everything. But tomorrow night she's going to lose, and I know it's not going to go down well - all because she was passed into a level she shouldn't have been.
Quote from: karne on May 23, 2013, 03:45:38 AMThis kid gets really amped about having to win everything. But tomorrow night she's going to lose, and I know it's not going to go down well - all because she was passed into a level she shouldn't have been.
This is a good reminder that it's not always bad to get a reskate - if she isn't ready to pass, she definitely shouldn't. If she shouldn't have passed freeskate 3, it wouldn't be a bad idea for her to spend more time on those elements to help prepare her for the next level, even though she has somehow passed.
I still work on moves I have passed, I don't expect to eliminate those just because they're not "required" any more. Strong skating skills start from the basics on up and build on each other. I even remind the adult class I am teaching right now that skills begin from the beginning and it takes a lot of practice and repetition to perfect them... you don't ever stop practicing and each skill builds on the next one.
And one point to remember is that, unfortunately, there are coaches out there who ARE in it just because of the money. I've lost count of the number of skaters and parents who push to test up as high as they can before they get out of high school because they can teach part-time in college. Coaching pays a whole lot more than flipping burgers or most office work. They don't have any particular desire to teach; they show up, teach what they already know for four years and after graduation they drift away to get on with their real lives.
Only some of them don't move on. They stay in coaching because the money's good and the hours are flexible and there are a lot of rinks with group programs and lots of beginners with parents who can be convinced that Little Suzy "has lots of natural talent and could go far" with enough private lessons from Just The Right Coach. Parents don't tend to check a coach's credentials; In twenty years of teaching group lessons, I've had ONE parent question my background (the skating director, club and rink have my resume on file). Parents also tend to believe what the coach tells them. After a while and a few thousand dollars spent on failed tests and more lessons on top of lessons, some parents may figure out that their skater either doesn't have all the talent in the world or that the coach might just be blowing smoke and try someone else.
And judges, who see hundreds of skaters every year, get to know which coaches know their stuff and which coaches are just marking time, keeping skaters and parents happy and raking in the dough. Some judges might try to help the skaters and parents by suggesting that they might want to get another opinion on a move or attend a camp but that gets tricky and a lot of judges won't bother. And some judges do develope dislikes for certain coaches' teaching styles; they're human. But I've heard far more negative comments from coaches about judges than I have from judges about coaches.
Maybe that's why this Judges' blog is sounding so outrageous to so many people.
Quote from: blue111moon on May 23, 2013, 07:57:45 AM
And one point to remember is that, unfortunately, there are coaches out there who ARE in it just because of the money. I've lost count of the number of skaters and parents who push to test up as high as they can before they get out of high school because they can teach part-time in college. Coaching pays a whole lot more than flipping burgers or most office work. They don't have any particular desire to teach; they show up, teach what they already know for four years and after graduation they drift away to get on with their real lives.
Only some of them don't move on. They stay in coaching because the money's good and the hours are flexible and there are a lot of rinks with group programs and lots of beginners with parents who can be convinced that Little Suzy "has lots of natural talent and could go far" with enough private lessons from Just The Right Coach. Parents don't tend to check a coach's credentials; In twenty years of teaching group lessons, I've had ONE parent question my background (the skating director, club and rink have my resume on file). Parents also tend to believe what the coach tells them. After a while and a few thousand dollars spent on failed tests and more lessons on top of lessons, some parents may figure out that their skater either doesn't have all the talent in the world or that the coach might just be blowing smoke and try someone else.
And judges, who see hundreds of skaters every year, get to know which coaches know their stuff and which coaches are just marking time, keeping skaters and parents happy and raking in the dough. Some judges might try to help the skaters and parents by suggesting that they might want to get another opinion on a move or attend a camp but that gets tricky and a lot of judges won't bother. And some judges do develope dislikes for certain coaches' teaching styles; they're human. But I've heard far more negative comments from coaches about judges than I have from judges about coaches.
Maybe that's why this Judges' blog is sounding so outrageous to so many people.
Absolutely agree 100%. I would add in also that some coaches need a backbone: they will put in tests because mom or dad or skater demand it, and they simply don't have the backbone to say "no". Maybe personality, maybe fear of losing a student, maybe wanting skater or parent to "learn a lesson" ... it's hard to know.
Judges can't comment on coaches due to code of ethics. Coaches seem to be able to kvetch about judges. It's not a two-way street.
Quote from: Sk8tmum on May 23, 2013, 11:47:03 AM
Judges can't comment on coaches due to code of ethics. Coaches seem to be able to kvetch about judges. It's not a two-way street.
I think it's because for the skaters and the parents, judges are a separate entity. They come along to competitions and tests and pass judgement and go away again. They're not really people in the same way that "the Government" isn't really people. Skaters see coaches and other skaters every day. The relationship difference means judges are an easier target for rants.
Quote from: Sk8tmum on May 23, 2013, 11:47:03 AMI would add in also that some coaches need a backbone: they will put in tests because mom or dad or skater demand it, and they simply don't have the backbone to say "no". Maybe personality, maybe fear of losing a student, maybe wanting skater or parent to "learn a lesson" ... it's hard to know.
I agree, and I actually respect my coach more for telling me "no" when I wanted to test two months earlier than I did this last time. She was the one that had been pushing me to get my moves ready, and I thought they were, but when it came down to time to sign that form and turn it in she said she really felt like I should wait - that my moves were ready, but my confidence just wasn't there yet. I hated hearing it even though I knew she was right, and I'm glad she made that call for me because I was much better prepared when I finally tested.
Quote from: sarahspins on May 23, 2013, 06:59:37 AM
I still work on moves I have passed, I don't expect to eliminate those just because they're not "required" any more. Strong skating skills start from the basics on up and build on each other.
It kind of depends. :blush:
I work on stroking, basic elements like turns, crossovers, swing rolls all the time, but passed MITF patterns are buried in the bottom of my priority list as long as I have other patterns to test. Ice time is just that limited. For dances I still run thru the "passed" dances semi-regularly, but in no way comparable to the "current" dances.
Quote from: blue111moon on May 23, 2013, 07:57:45 AM
But I've heard far more negative comments from coaches about judges than I have from judges about coaches.
Maybe that's why this Judges' blog is sounding so outrageous to so many people.
But are these coach's comments on public blogs? I think this is why this is even a topic of conversation!
Everyone gossips. That is a given in the human condition I think. Everyone likes to dish dirt and hear the latest news. Skating is a small world.
There is a difference between a public forum like a blog (or this message board) and just general griping about judges, coaches, parents, skaters, clubs, etc. -
Are there no "code of ethics" in USFS or PSA regarding coaching ethics? I think there are...
Quote from: jjane45 on May 23, 2013, 02:27:43 PM
I work on stroking, basic elements like turns, crossovers, swing rolls all the time, but passed MITF patterns are buried in the bottom of my priority list as long as I have other patterns to test.
I should have clarified that I don't work on them
all, just a few key ones :) Some are part of my typical warm up (power stroking, cross strokes, power pulls) and others like power 3's and 3's in the field, plus those spirals on silver I do just to maintain them... because if I didn't keep doing them I really do fear I would "lose" them!
Quote from: sarahspins on May 22, 2013, 09:14:41 PM
Okay, part of this that doesn't make sense to me, since they removed the forward 3's pattern from pre-bronze, it's not like *any* of the patterns are different than standard track tests. Yes the foci may be different for some, but the moves are fundamentally still taught and performed the same.
Honestly, at the time, my coach might not have taught any/many preliminary or pre-juv skaters, either. Almost every skater at my rink was pre-pre or no test, and the higher-level ones mostly went out of town for lessons.
The two things I'd learned incorrectly were:
1. On the circle 8, I was doing a right outside edge, left outside edge, right inside edge, left inside edge, instead of the left inside after left outside. Now that I'm looking at the test book, it does say "thereby repeating the previously skated circle." I don't know if my coach misunderstood that, didn't read carefully, or what, but that was the move the other skater with the other coach also had wrong.
2. On the five step mohawk, I was doing a slip with one leg behind the other. Turns out the free leg isn't supposed to cross behind, it just comes beside the inside edge leg. That was a weird one for me to re-adjust.
Quote from: sarahspins on May 23, 2013, 04:24:59 PM
I should have clarified that I don't work on them all, just a few key ones :) Some are part of my typical warm up (power stroking, cross strokes, power pulls) and others like power 3's and 3's in the field, plus those spirals on silver I do just to maintain them... because if I didn't keep doing them I really do fear I would "lose" them!
The truth is, after I passed the bronze MITF, I did not revisit any of the patterns at all. When the moves "time slot" comes up, all I did was silver MITF patterns. I did practice preliminary dances several times, but in no way comparable to the time I spend on "next up" dances.
Quote from: VAsk8r on May 23, 2013, 10:08:59 PM
The two things I'd learned incorrectly were:
1. On the circle 8, I was doing a right outside edge, left outside edge, right inside edge, left inside edge, instead of the left inside after left outside. Now that I'm looking at the test book, it does say "thereby repeating the previously skated circle." I don't know if my coach misunderstood that, didn't read carefully, or what, but that was the move the other skater with the other coach also had wrong.
The way you were doing it was correct. It is outside-outside then inside-inside. It doesn't matter which foot you start with but you do the third circle on top of the 2nd circle regardless.
This was a really hard concept for anyone who had done real figures to follow.
Quote from: VAsk8r on May 23, 2013, 10:08:59 PM
Honestly, at the time, my coach might not have taught any/many preliminary or pre-juv skaters, either. Almost every skater at my rink was pre-pre or no test, and the higher-level ones mostly went out of town for lessons.
The two things I'd learned incorrectly were:
1. On the circle 8, I was doing a right outside edge, left outside edge, right inside edge, left inside edge, instead of the left inside after left outside. Now that I'm looking at the test book, it does say "thereby repeating the previously skated circle." I don't know if my coach misunderstood that, didn't read carefully, or what, but that was the move the other skater with the other coach also had wrong.
2. On the five step mohawk, I was doing a slip with one leg behind the other. Turns out the free leg isn't supposed to cross behind, it just comes beside the inside edge leg. That was a weird one for me to re-adjust.
Honestly, that's all on the coach and if I had to deal with the embarrassment of failing because they taught me the wrong thing (which is worse than failing cause I made mistakes) I'd have fired them at the test session.
But that's just me.
Your post sounds different when you replace "I'd learned" with "I was taught."
Quote from: jjane45 on May 23, 2013, 11:03:50 PM
The truth is, after I passed the bronze MITF, I did not revisit any of the patterns at all. When the moves "time slot" comes up, all I did was silver MITF patterns. I did practice preliminary dances several times, but in no way comparable to the time I spend on "next up" dances.
The parameter stroking is good during warm-up. Circle 8 as well as the back edge/extensions.
I don't bother doing Waltz 5 or Power 3s anymore.
But now that I think about it, it's a pretty fast test so it's not actually a bad idea to use the previous moves (all of them) as a warm-up when you get on the ice.
Quote from: icedancer2 on May 23, 2013, 02:31:04 PM
Are there no "code of ethics" in USFS or PSA regarding coaching ethics? I think there are...
There is nothing in the PSA ethics exam that pertains to judges that I remember. It's all about parent/skater or coach/coach relationships.
Coaches have been dissing judges in various forms of media for decades. I think the reason that this judges' blog is causing comment is because it is rare to have a judge speak out publicly about coaches. Most of the judges I know are way more "professional" in their demeanor than the "Professional" coaches.
Quote from: VAsk8r on May 23, 2013, 10:08:59 PMthat was the move the other skater with the other coach also had wrong.
I don't really understand - the way you described it (outside outside, inside inside) is how it's supposed to be done - you alternate feet, the 3rd circle is on top of the 2nd circle as icedancer2 said. I'd almost wonder if there wasn't something else weird going on with that one that made it not pass.
Quote2. On the five step mohawk, I was doing a slip with one leg behind the other.
Kind of obvious but that's has never been considered a slip of any kind, that's a cross behind. Any skater who has tested these should know the pattern.. and slips show up in other patterns as well. Unless your coach hasn't at least tested through pre-juv, which would be unusual for a coach these days (many rinks require at least juvenile moves for private coaches), but even if they haven't tested it, I find it unusual that they hadn't been taught it correctly at some point in their skating career. It's even taught through basic skills in Freeskate 6.. so even if there aren't skaters taking higher tests than pre-pre and prelim I am honestly shocked that your coach doesn't know it and can't teach it correctly. It's really not a little mistake.
Quote from: GoSveta on May 24, 2013, 02:46:27 AM
Honestly, that's all on the coach and if I had to deal with the embarrassment of failing because they taught me the wrong thing (which is worse than failing cause I made mistakes) I'd have fired them at the test session.
Your post sounds different when you replace "I'd learned" with "I was taught."
I agree 100% and these are issues I'd bring up with both your home club and the skating director at your rink. I don't personally feel that it's coaching behavior that should be allowed to continue without bringing it to someone's attention. If you were taught it correctly and changed it on your own or if you were taking these tests without a coach at all then that would be a different scenario, but to be taught these moves incorrectly and taken to a test session unprepared like that is completely unacceptable by a professional coach who you are paying to prepare you for a test - the fact that your coach didn't know these were incorrect and didn't seek out the advice of someone else if they were unsure about them is pretty questionable to me.
Quote from: fsk8r on May 23, 2013, 12:08:35 PM
I think it's because for the skaters and the parents, judges are a separate entity. They come along to competitions and tests and pass judgement and go away again. They're not really people in the same way that "the Government" isn't really people. Skaters see coaches and other skaters every day. The relationship difference means judges are an easier target for rants.
I think this is really sad. :( We are lucky enough to have 4 judges who are all very involved in our club so well known by most of the skaters who test (and their parents if applicable). 2 are our test organisers and all 4 are on the club committee too! The 2 who skate (both dance judges) are very friendly and spend quite a bit of time helping skaters understand a dance pattern or having trouble with a dance move during our club sessions because they want to encourage people to enjoy dance and enjoy skating whether they want to test or not!
Quote from: sarahspins on May 24, 2013, 09:24:07 AM
I don't really understand - the way you described it (outside outside, inside inside) is how it's supposed to be done - you alternate feet, the 3rd circle is on top of the 2nd circle as icedancer2 said. I'd almost wonder if there wasn't something else weird going on with that one that made it not pass.
Oh, there were other things wrong with it, trust me. But I wasn't doing it as you describe it -- the correct way. I was doing my 3rd circle on top of the 1st, essentially, and my 4th on top of my 2nd. Or that's what I recall, anyway. It's been over a year, and I'm so used to the correct way now I don't really remember how I did it before.
I would probably be madder about those issues except those aren't the only reasons I failed. I failed because the test wasn't ready, plain and simple, and I was much wobblier than usual due to nerves.