So I'm thinking about getting back on the ice. Since ice dance is out (no longer have a coach), I was thinking of maybe preparing a program for a summer competition. My test program no longer meets the requirements for bronze (too many spins) so I have to rechoreograph anyway.
Can anyone suggest some good jump layouts that maximize what the bronze level allow, while also considering that I suck at jumping.
-Four jump elements
-Jumps may be repeated only once, and only in combos.
-At least one, no more than two jump combos or sequences (one can be three jump, the other two)
I can do the following jumps: waltz, toe, salchow. I can do toe taps and falling leafs if necessary. I can also do a half-flip. I am NOT doing a loop.
I am thinking
-Single salchow
-Single toe loop
-Waltz-falling leaf-toe loop
-Waltz-salchow
Is there a stronger arrangement you can think of?
It says "only single jumps are allowed". I'm pretty sure the half rotation jumps are not disallowed, but do they count towards the limit?
Maybe you should consider choosing jumps based on what fits the music best.
Doing S+T would presumably increase the difficulty, but it might make it even harder to fill up your four spots.
Nick- I am pretty certain half jumps are allowed, and count as though they were single jumps.
I have a good salchow-toe (better than my waltz toe, which is why I prefer waltz-falling leaf-toe), but since I won't do a loop (possibly can't do a loop- that was a three year battle before I took my test), it would make it very difficult to have enough other jump options.
Salchow-toe
waltz-falling leaf-toe
single salchow
single waltz
Is that a 'better' arrangement than what I had previously? I really don't know how 6.0 is scored to know what is 'harder'. (I also know if I compete against any really good bronze skaters it is moot- as they'll have flips and lutzes, but often the bronze competitions around here are just pre-bronze skating up, with the bronze skaters skating very close to test. I hope to make up for the lack of loop with my spins.)
As for what fits the music- I'd place them based on what fits the music, but to me, there is no musicality in choosing to do a toe loop vs. choosing to do a waltz jump. Maybe I'm not a high enough level skater to see it, but even when I watch elite programs, the jump they do doesn't seem to make a difference with the music- rather where they do it and what entry they use.
Another question- can waltz-falling leaf-toe still be done as a sequence now that sequences generally say no turns? It requires a turn, but it is also a required sequence in USFSA's freestyle LTS- so why would they teach it if it can't be used?
I don't think waltz/falling leaf/toe counts as a sequence anymore. :(
What about dressing up some of the entrances into jumps? In my artistic, I did falling leaf/mazurka/flip. Only the flip counted but it was fun to watch and fit the music well (my artistic is very bouncy/fun music). You could do something like falling leaf/mazkurka/toe loop. I think having sal/toe is good because it is the hardest combination and therefore worth more.
I can't do a mazurka :(
I guess I could always just do waltz-toe, but that's a bummer because I'm more apt to cheat that one.
I really wonder why USFS still requires the falling leaf sequence in the freestyle LTS levels if it basically isn't a thing anymore.
You skate CW right? I am trying to flip this around in my head...what about falling leaf/LFI3/toe tap/waltz? Could really do any of the jumps out of the falling leaf/toe tap.
Quote from: CaraSkates on February 27, 2013, 01:19:20 PM
You skate CW right? I am trying to flip this around in my head...what about falling leaf/LFI3/toe tap/waltz? Could really do any of the jumps out of the falling leaf/toe tap.
I'll give that a try on Saturday. I've never done a falling leaf except after a jump, so I'll have to play. Thanks for the suggestion.
Toe walley?
Does that count? Isn't it an unlisted jump?
Either way, I haven't even tried one in like 4 years, so I doubt it is among my available jumps... I am NOT a good jumper- the ones I listed in the first post are pretty much what I have, I just need to arrange them.
How about waltz-half loop-salchow? Or waltz-toe step-salchow?
By the way, your loop looked fine in your test program. Perhaps, you could resurrect it?
It looks as though you are required to do the Bronze well-balanced program requirements. The "remarks" for this in the competition rules book says that "all elements must meet the general criteria and basic requirements in order to be counted."
If they follow the rules, you need four single jumps--which are by definition NOT half jumps--so you need to choose four jumps from the toe loop, salchow, loop, flip, half loop, lutz, or axel. If they don't care about that, they would likely not care about whether anything else fits the appropriate definitions either, so you probably don't need to worry about doing the right combo or sequence, either--just do what works for you!
I'm doing a comp at bronze level and to meet the well-balanced program requirements, my coach put in: toe loop; salchow; salchow-toe loop; loop; flip; sit spin; backspin; camel; and straight line footwork. I feel your pain over the loop, which I think is the worst invention since panty hose, but my coach assures me that it has to be in my program to be even remotely competitive!!
Quote from: Skittl1321 on February 27, 2013, 10:32:30 AM
I can do the following jumps: waltz, toe, salchow. I can do toe taps and falling leafs if necessary. I can also do a half-flip. I am NOT doing a loop.
I am thinking
-Single salchow
-Single toe loop
-Waltz-falling leaf-toe loop
-Waltz-salchow
I think this selection of jump elements is a very good choice if you don't have a loop, flip or lutz. There's just no way the official ISU rules can be applied at Adult Bronze level, which is why they don't judge under IJS and which is why you really don't need to worry about them.
The fact is, under IJS rules, your proposed jumps would count as a single salchow, a single toeloop, then another single toeloop and another single salchow (meaning you're repeating both jumps without doing them in combination). If you wanted to do only legitimate ISU jumps and sequences, you would have to do this:
* salchow - side toe tap - waltz - toeloop (a 2-jump sequence)
* salchow
* toeloop
* You could also do any combination of waltz jump, falling leaf, half flip and side toe tap as a "sequence" but it would only count as connecting moves, not as a 4th jump element, since none of these are listed jumps.
As sk8lady pointed out, for Adult Bronze, they aren't going to apply certain ISU jump rules (like no 3-turns within a jump sequence) when they are clearly not applying others (waltz jumps don't count as jumps), so I would just stick with your original plan and do them well! :)
Quote from: Skittl1321 on February 27, 2013, 11:04:09 AM
Maybe I'm not a high enough level skater to see it, but even when I watch elite programs, the jump they do doesn't seem to make a difference with the music- rather where they do it and what entry they use.
I think that's because elite skaters prioritize base value over expressing the music, not because the music can't tell you what jump would look best.
Quote from: Doubletoe on February 27, 2013, 08:16:47 PM
I think this selection of jump elements is a very good choice if you don't have a loop, flip or lutz. There's just no way the official ISU rules can be applied at Adult Bronze level, which is why they don't judge under IJS and which is why you really don't need to worry about them.
Just so you know, they judge Pre-Bronze and Bronze under IJS in Europe. Program requirements are pretty much the same as your Well Balanced requirements.
My coach emphasises that things done well count more than things done badly. So if you're confident with your salchow, toe-loop and waltz I wouldn't worry too much about the missing loops and flips (if you can do one so much the better).
What are you thinking of doing spins wise? My coach is currently putting the emphasis on having harder spins because most people end up with the same jumps (have injury limitations, etc.) so having variations on your spins can make you look different and stand out. It's yet to be seen whether this theory works for me, but I just thought I'd put the suggestion out there.
Quote from: fsk8r on February 28, 2013, 03:42:14 AM
What are you thinking of doing spins wise?
Right now I am thinking camel-upright-change backspin and then either a sit spin with a change of position or just a single backspin. I'd like to do the sit spin with a change of position, but I don't really sit in my sit spins (though when I change position I tend to get lower, if I don't fall over- it needs work) so I need to tape it a few times and see what it looks like. I wish we still got 3 spins.
-never mind-
Quote from: Icicle on February 27, 2013, 07:28:20 PM
By the way, your loop looked fine in your test program. Perhaps, you could resurrect it?
No it didn't, but thanks for humoring me. And no- one of the conditions of taking that test was that I would never be doing a loop again. When I had my coach I was working to get a flip, but it didn't happen (only worked for 6 months on it- loop took over 4 years, so I didn't expect it too) and I don't have a coach anymore, so I'm not going to teach myself new jumps.
Quote from: sk8lady on February 27, 2013, 07:31:16 PM
I'm doing a comp at bronze level and to meet the well-balanced program requirements, my coach put in: toe loop; salchow; salchow-toe loop; loop; flip; sit spin; backspin; camel; and straight line footwork. I feel your pain over the loop, which I think is the worst invention since panty hose, but my coach assures me that it has to be in my program to be even remotely competitive!!
You need to make sure your coach is working from a current rulebook. You have too many spins and too many jumps listed. 2 spins (you have 3) and 4 jump passes (you have 5). IIRC, these were the previous allowances.
I'm not too worried about being competitive. Many of the competitions around here bronze programs are just PB skaters skating up (because PB is often no-test skaters). I've never won one, but as a PB skater I often got 1st place ordinals in Bronze. I'm never going to be competitive nationally, I just took the test so I'd be ELIGIBLE to go to nationals, where I'll gladly take last place. But still, I want to do the best program I can do.
Okay, supposing I do my 'loop' (which is more of a 'bless her heart, she's trying to do a loop')
Salchow-toe loop
Loop
Salchow
Toe-loop
Would it be better to do a waltz-toe loop or waltz-salchow, just so- if the judges do look at that as a combo, I have two combos, and if they don't consider waltz jumps to be jumps I have a fun connecting move? Is one of those considered 'harder' than the other? I think I'm leaning to waltz-salchow.
In my bronze I know they wanted to see a loop, even though in the requirements it does not say a loop.
But I can't speak for the general requirements of it. I tested just before they changed it, and because I did not have a loop in it (three separate jumps, which apparently means 3 completely different jumps) I did not pass, even though I landed 3 for the judge.
Quote from: davincisop on February 28, 2013, 08:58:18 AM
In my bronze I know they wanted to see a loop, even though in the requirements it does not say a loop.
But I can't speak for the general requirements of it. I tested just before they changed it, and because I did not have a loop in it (three separate jumps, which apparently means 3 completely different jumps) I did not pass, even though I landed 3 for the judge.
This is for competition, not for test. I have already passed the test, and did a loop then. (You don't need to do a loop- but you need to do either a loop, a flip, or a lutz. Most people go for loop because it is easiest.) Sorry you didn't pass, but yes, the three jumps need to be distinct jumps. I would be really upset with my coach if they didn't know that.
Quote from: Skittl1321 on February 28, 2013, 08:21:39 AM
You need to make sure your coach is working from a current rulebook. You have too many spins and too many jumps listed. 2 spins (you have 3) and 4 jump passes (you have 5). IIRC, these were the previous allowances.
I messaged you the long boring explanation for my elements--the short version is that for comp purposes at Bronze level, the salchow is replaced by the sal-toe, but the sal will make a glorious return after next year's AN when I add more music to turn the program into a Silver Free for test--that gives me four jumps, although I'm not sure they would dock me for doing MORE than I needed in a competition. Same for the spins--I will need that many for Silver Free, the camel will be a camel-sit, and since the sit is my best spin it seems unlikely they would dock me more points for unbalanced choreography than they would add for a really good sit spin! My coach is pretty sharp and I trust her to put my choreo together right.
Quote from: sk8lady on February 28, 2013, 09:41:38 AM
although I'm not sure they would dock me for doing MORE than I needed in a competition.
That's what they do dock you for. The requirements in the rulebooks are
maximums- you are always allowed to do less.
According to this: http://www.usfsa.org/content/AdultSinglesWBPChart.pdf It is a two-tenths deduction for any element exceeding the max allowed. I'm not clear whether or not they still 'count' the element that wasn't allowed, so the idea that it is better to take the deduction for a good element, it is my understanding that the third spin just won't be considered, and you'd be deducted. Maybe a judge will respond here.
Why not just skate up to silver locally?
I am not inclined to skate up to Silver as I am not really at the Silver level yet, or I would be taking the test.
As I said, I am not going to worry. You will note that the deduction is a "should" rather than a "must" and therefore is not mandatory, in my professional opinion. And quite frankly, I trust my coach more than I trust you--and that's all I'm going to say about it! ;)
You should trust your coach more than a stranger on the internet. I guess my final comment on the matter is that I find it really disrespectful of your competitors to intentionally do more than what is allowed in the level in the hopes the judges don't remember to take the deduction and reward you for the elements.
I have really nice spins- I'd do really well to have 3 of them in my program, because I spin better than most of the other bronze skaters in the area. It would make me look like a much better skater to have more spins than jumps in my program. But the rules say I can only do 2. So I only do 2.
Quote from: Skittl1321 on February 28, 2013, 08:14:21 AM
Right now I am thinking camel-upright-change backspin and then either a sit spin with a change of position or just a single backspin. I'd like to do the sit spin with a change of position, but I don't really sit in my sit spins (though when I change position I tend to get lower, if I don't fall over- it needs work) so I need to tape it a few times and see what it looks like. I wish we still got 3 spins.
My coach has selected 3 spins for me to work on for this seasons bronze program: camel-sit, back spin to forward spin (backward entry counts for more in IJS) and sit spin with a change of position. Her plan is to put the strongest two into the program (my plan is that I'll swap the most reliable for an upright if it doesn't go well in warmup but only because I'll be competing under IJS and want something called). But it's worth bearing in mind what's considered harder under IJS as the judges all tend to think in terms of IJS even when judging 6.0.
If you've got time, I would play around with spins (especially if they're your stronger elements) and see if you can come up with some different options so you can then add your two strongest to the program. I'm really liking the broken leg sit spin and it's inspiring me to play around with some other sit positions.
Also I don't understand how you can do waltz-salchow unless there's a change of feet and a turn occuring. I've been doing waltz-tap toe - salchow (with the 3turn into the salchow) which is a nice flowing sequence and adds to the interest of a single salchow if done in a program.
Quote from: fsk8r on February 28, 2013, 10:57:09 AM
My coach has selected 3 spins for me to work on for this seasons bronze program: camel-sit, back spin to forward spin (backward entry counts for more in IJS) and sit spin with a change of position. Her plan is to put the strongest two into the program (my plan is that I'll swap the most reliable for an upright if it doesn't go well in warmup but only because I'll be competing under IJS and want something called). But it's worth bearing in mind what's considered harder under IJS as the judges all tend to think in terms of IJS even when judging 6.0.
If you've got time, I would play around with spins (especially if they're your stronger elements) and see if you can come up with some different options so you can then add your two strongest to the program. I'm really liking the broken leg sit spin and it's inspiring me to play around with some other sit positions.
Also I don't understand how you can do waltz-salchow unless there's a change of feet and a turn occuring. I've been doing waltz-tap toe - salchow (with the 3turn into the salchow) which is a nice flowing sequence and adds to the interest of a single salchow if done in a program.
Waltz-salchow uses a three turn, just like if you do the toe-tap.
For spins, I'm working on a layback spin to do as my second spin, but I don't know how long I can wait for it.
I can't use back spin to foward spin (does that really count as harder than forward to back? It is so much easier! The foot change isn't tricky like forward to back) because the camel-upright-backspin is already a change foot spin, so I don't think that an upright change foot spin has a different 'code' or whatever. (Not being able to do a flying spin really eliminates the number of spins of a different nature you can do. I have a sort of decent flying sit, if you scale it down to the level I'm at.) I can't do camel-sit (though I can work on it) and sit-upright or camel-upright no longer counts as a two position spin, so those are out.
I'll probably go with camel-upright-backspin and the change position sit. Even though my backspin is a lot better than the change position sit, I think I'm more apt to get 'difficult' spin credit on the change position..
Quote from: Skittl1321 on February 28, 2013, 09:08:05 AM
This is for competition, not for test. I have already passed the test, and did a loop then. (You don't need to do a loop- but you need to do either a loop, a flip, or a lutz. Most people go for loop because it is easiest.) Sorry you didn't pass, but yes, the three jumps need to be distinct jumps. I would be really upset with my coach if they didn't know that.
Ah my mistake! Misread your original post. :)
Quote from: Skittl1321 on February 28, 2013, 10:40:13 AM
You should trust your coach more than a stranger on the internet. I guess my final comment on the matter is that I find it really disrespectful of your competitors to intentionally do more than what is allowed in the level in the hopes the judges don't remember to take the deduction and reward you for the elements.
I have really nice spins- I'd do really well to have 3 of them in my program, because I spin better than most of the other bronze skaters in the area. It would make me look like a much better skater to have more spins than jumps in my program. But the rules say I can only do 2. So I only do 2.
Final comment: If you are a lawyer, as I am, and review the wording in the rule there is a difference in wording between the mandatory deductions, such as time, etc., and the deduction for an additional element. Usually, a change in wording such as this one means there is a difference in meaning; I am inclined to believe the deduction CAN be taken, but if the judge does not, it is allowable, for which there could be a variety of reasons. There is nothing 'disrespectful' in understanding the rules and attempting to do the best program you can.
Clearly, this is all off-topic since the topic was what you should do in YOUR program, which I think you ought to be worrying about more than MY program, with which which I am perfectly happy. My apologies to other readers for responding to you in the first place.
Quote from: sk8lady on February 28, 2013, 11:55:49 AM
Final comment: If you are a lawyer, as I am, and review the wording in the rule there is a difference in wording between the mandatory deductions, such as time, etc., and the deduction for an additional element.
As a lawyer, can you explain to me how the word "maximum" means "but you can have more than that if you want" 88)
QuoteThere is nothing 'disrespectful' in understanding the rules and attempting to do the best program you can.
Clearly we are just going to disagree here. Doing more than the maximum doesn't mean you understand the rules better than others.
Quote from: Skittl1321 on February 28, 2013, 08:28:16 AM
Okay, supposing I do my 'loop' (which is more of a 'bless her heart, she's trying to do a loop')
Salchow-toe loop
Loop
Salchow
Toe-loop
Would it be better to do a waltz-toe loop or waltz-salchow, just so- if the judges do look at that as a combo, I have two combos, and if they don't consider waltz jumps to be jumps I have a fun connecting move? Is one of those considered 'harder' than the other? I think I'm leaning to waltz-salchow.
If you do a waltz-toeloop, it will seem more like a jump combination than a waltz-salchow. If you want to do a waltz-salchow and make it look like a sequence instead of two separate jumps, I'd suggest doing waltz--> side toe tap --> 3-turn --> salchow.
Quote from: Doubletoe on February 28, 2013, 01:59:04 PM
If you do a waltz-toeloop, it will seem more like a jump combination than a waltz-salchow. If you want to do a waltz-salchow and make it look like a sequence instead of two separate jumps, I'd suggest doing waltz--> side toe tap --> 3-turn --> salchow.
Hmm, that's two votes for the toe tap. I feel like that makes it a lot easier, but I can do that too :)
Guess it will just depend what fits the music best, but good to have all the options laid out. Should probably stick with waltz-toe so no 3-turn is needed.
I actually emailed the adult committee chairs and suggested they consider revising the rulebook to make clear whether waltz jumps were allowable in the bronze level. I'm really interested in that, because it does say only single jumps, but why would they require it on the test? I know a lot of skaters who skate at test level, so with a loop, but not the ability to do a loop as a second jump of a combo yet. The 6.0 levels really get the short end of the stick when it come to rules clarifications!
The "only single jumps" means no double jumps are allowed. It doesn't mean you can't do unlisted half revolution jumps.
The reason I suggested the side toe tap between the waltz jump and the 3-turn-salchow is because a side toe tap creates a hop and rhythm that is typical of a jump sequence. That would ensure that your waltz-salchow is seen as a jump sequence and not counted as two separate jumps.
Two things regarding the change-foot upright spin:
(1) A back upright to forward upright spin is MUCH more difficult than a forward upright to back upright. That's because you are not allowed to create a new entrance edge on the forward spin when you step down after the backspin. If you can step down onto the left back inside edge instead of left forward outside edge and go into the forward spin with no more than shoulder distance between the two spin centers, they will count it as one spin, but otherwise they will consider it two separate spins (a back upright followed by a forward upright).
(2) A change foot upright spin does NOT count the same as a Camel-upright/back upright spin You can do both in your program if you want to. The difference is that one is an upright spin with a change of foot (IJS code CUSp) and the other is a combination spin with a change of foot and change of position (CCoSp). Different code = different spin classification. What would count as the same spin would be if you did a back upright and separately also did a forward upright. They both count as upright spin (USp).
Quote from: Skittl1321 on February 28, 2013, 11:03:39 AM
Waltz-salchow uses a three turn, just like if you do the toe-tap.
For spins, I'm working on a layback spin to do as my second spin, but I don't know how long I can wait for it.
I can't use back spin to foward spin (does that really count as harder than forward to back? It is so much easier! The foot change isn't tricky like forward to back) because the camel-upright-backspin is already a change foot spin, so I don't think that an upright change foot spin has a different 'code' or whatever. (Not being able to do a flying spin really eliminates the number of spins of a different nature you can do. I have a sort of decent flying sit, if you scale it down to the level I'm at.) I can't do camel-sit (though I can work on it) and sit-upright or camel-upright no longer counts as a two position spin, so those are out.
I'll probably go with camel-upright-backspin and the change position sit. Even though my backspin is a lot better than the change position sit, I think I'm more apt to get 'difficult' spin credit on the change position..
I think camel to backspin is different from a change foot upright as it's a change of position AND change of foot. Check the rule clarification as the UK ones say we can have a change or foot OR change of position, which implies to me (not getting into the lawyer debate) that you can have one or the other but not both (my coach hasn't suggested it and she knows I work on it as I like messing around with camel-sit-upright-backspin - makes me practice everything in one go!).
And the back entry being difficult does seem quite weird for an upright spin, but for sit and camel I'm quite happy to accept that back entry is harder, but only because I can't do either yet!
Doubletoe has just posted the same as I've typed my reply. I would still check the rules on whether you can change foot and position.
And ironically I have managed to find a difficult variation on back upright to forward upright as my legs get tangled and I just switch feet while crossed. My coach doesn't mind, but I'd rather I put it right so I could get my feet untangled!
Quote from: Doubletoe on February 28, 2013, 02:10:33 PM
The "only single jumps" means no double jumps are allowed. It doesn't mean you can't do unlisted half revolution jumps.
But as someone pointed out, because they are unlisted jump they 'don't count'. So a waltz-toe is the same as a toe loop. If a toe loop is also used as a solo jump, then you've repeated the same jump without it being in combination.
Thanks for pointing out CUSp CCoSP are different. That makes it very clear which spins I'll use! I like the change position sit spin, but my sit position isn't ideal.
Guess I'm weird with the change foot spins- I find going back to foward (while maintaining speed) to be so much easier. My spins don't recenter. The change from forward to backward is scary to me, but I've finally got it.
Quote from: fsk8r on February 28, 2013, 02:13:48 PM
Check the rule clarification as the UK ones say we can have a change or foot OR change of position, which implies to me (not getting into the lawyer debate) that you can have one or the other but not both
Doubletoe has just posted the same as I've typed my reply. I would still check the rules on whether you can change foot and position.
You are right about the 'or', that is exactly what that word means. So are you saying that by UK rules you can't do camel-upright-backspin as a valid element? Now I have to go rulebook digging again. (I came by this spin when I really needed to practice camels and really needed to practice foot changes. It lets me do both.)
And yeah- I see back entry being more difficult for sit and camel! Although not really the sit, for me it isn't the entry, but the position, I can't bend my left leg!
ETA: The rulebooks says "freedom to pick spin from allowable spins" and then in the spins section has
"Spin combination: Must consist of changes of foot and/or position as specified. A change of foot and a change of position may be made either at the same time or separately." Which has the and/or, not just or.
"Spin in one position: May change feet (if allowed), but may not change position."
So even though both of mine change foot, it would be a spin combination and a spin in one position. YAY!
Here is a new question:
So the rulebook says
"The concluding upright position at the end of the spin (final wind-up) is not considered to be another position, regardless of the number of revolutions, as long as no additional feature (change of edge, variation of position, etc.) is attempted in the final wind-up."
So a sit-upright no longer counts. Is 8 revolutions still considered a feature? If I did sit then an 8 revolution upright, would that count as a change position spin? (I'd probably rather just do the camel though.)
Quote from: Skittl1321 on February 28, 2013, 02:16:04 PM
But as someone pointed out, because they are unlisted jump they 'don't count'. So a waltz-toe is the same as a toe loop. If a toe loop is also used as a solo jump, then you've repeated the same jump without it being in combination.
Thanks for pointing out CUSp CCoSP are different. That makes it very clear which spins I'll use! I like the change position sit spin, but my sit position isn't ideal.
Guess I'm weird with the change foot spins- I find going back to foward (while maintaining speed) to be so much easier. My spins don't recenter. The change from forward to backward is scary to me, but I've finally got it.
An unlisted jump wouldn't "count" if there were values assigned to each jump, but under 6.0 there are no values assigned, so there is no "count" vs. "doesn't count" (although I've seen that in competitions where Bronze is judged under IJS, they actually assign a value to the waltz jump). Under 6.0, it's what you did and how well you did it vs. what other skaters did and how well they did it. If you do a toe loop in combination with a waltz jump, it will be considered more difficult than if you did just a toe loop, so use your waltz jumps and any other half jumps you may have, as long as you can do them well in combination.
Regardless of whether your spin centers are close together or far apart, you need to be able to get into the forward spin without a visible LFO edge if you're going to do a back upright to forward upright change foot spin. Unless you have a coach look at it and say you're doing it right, I'd play it safe and do forward to backward.
BTW, in Bronze in the U.S. you are absolutely allowed to do a combination spin with change of position and change of foot (like your camel-upright/back upright). The only kind of spin you aren't allowed to do is a flying spin.
Even though a sit-upright is considered the same as a sit spin, I would recommend holding the upright position for 2 revolutions after coming up out of the sit spin because it shows control and also gives you more revolutions on that foot. But the 8-revolution feature doesn't count for an upright spin unless you do it in a difficult variation of position (like a Y spin or Biellmann), so don't bother with that.
Quote from: Doubletoe on February 28, 2013, 02:29:20 PM
If you do a toe loop in combination with a waltz jump, it will be considered more difficult than if you did just a toe loop, so use your waltz jumps and any other half jumps you may have, as long as you can do them well in combination.
So then, since a three jump combo is allowed- would you think waltz-toe-tap-waltz-toe loop is better than just waltz toe?
So the jumps would be
loop (blech)
salchow-toe loop
salchow
waltz-toe tap-waltz-toe
I won't be doing a sit spin at all, so holding the upright isn't really an issue. Since only two spins are allowed I think doing a change foot spin is more difficult than doing a sit spin. So I'll do a change foot upright (not sure which) and I'll do camel-upright-backspin (need to start working on my 3-turn entry into camel rather than the wind-up, because I can never seem to fit a wind-up entry into a program.)
Quote from: Skittl1321 on February 28, 2013, 02:32:13 PM
So then, since a three jump combo is allowed- would you think waltz-toe-tap-waltz-toe loop is better than just waltz toe?
So the jumps would be
loop (blech)
salchow-toe loop
salchow
waltz-toe tap-waltz-toe
I won't be doing a sit spin at all, so holding the upright isn't really an issue. Since only two spins are allowed I think doing a change foot spin is more difficult than doing a sit spin. So I'll do a change foot upright (not sure which) and I'll do camel-upright-backspin (need to start working on my 3-turn entry into camel rather than the wind-up, because I can never seem to fit a wind-up entry into a program.)
I think that sounds like a good jump and spin assortment. For your camel-upright/back upright, just be sure you can hit the camel position and hold it for 2 revolutions before going into the upright position. You don't want to miss the camel and end up doing upright/back upright, which you already have later in your program.
Quote from: Doubletoe on February 28, 2013, 02:36:54 PM
You don't want to miss the camel and end up doing upright/back upright, which you already have later in your program.
That's a good point. 2 revolutions shouldn't be a problem, but more than 3 in a camel sometimes can be, but I'll keep working on the change position sit just in case it seems like a safer bet than having the change foot upright later on. I still feel that I should try for a camel no matter what, since I'm not trying for the flip or lutz. There has to be some more difficult element for the judges to see that you aren't skating a PB levels still.
Thanks!
I cannot believe I let this thread convince me I need to do a loop. I am not kidding when I say I told my coach I was never doing a loop again (and have only done like 15 since my test, all under group lesson subsitutes)
Quote from: Doubletoe on February 28, 2013, 02:36:54 PM
P.S. Actual wording for Bronze jump limitations is, "All single jumps are permitted (except Axel)" In other words, there is no rule against including half jumps or unlisted jumps.
The rulebook online states "Only single jumps are allowed"
To me -only- implies no half, but I can't imagine that is what they actually mean. I don't really think any judge is going to see a waltz-toe and say "waltz is unlisted, that was a toe loop" and then see a toe loop and say "repetition of jump not in combination, no credit, deduction" but based on the wording, it -could- happen... It would just be nice if there wasn't a need to guess what all the rules meant.
Quote from: Skittl1321 on February 28, 2013, 02:41:41 PM
The rulebook online states "Only single jumps are allowed"
To me -only- implies no half, but I can't imagine that is what they actually mean. I don't really think any judge is going to see a waltz-toe and say "waltz is unlisted, that was a toe loop" and then see a toe loop and say "repetition of jump not in combination, no credit, deduction" but based on the wording, it -could- happen... It would just be nice if there wasn't a need to guess what all the rules meant.
Look here: http://www.usfsa.org/content/AdultSinglesWBPChart.pdf (http://www.usfsa.org/content/AdultSinglesWBPChart.pdf)
P.S. If a half jump or unlisted jump doesn't count as a jump, then they can't say it's a type of jump that isn't allowed, LOL! Don't let your brain explode over this. ;)
What takes precedence, that or the rulebook?
(It does worry me that pre-bronze says half and single jumps are allowed, where bronze doesn't mention half at all.)
This is pretty much exactly why USFSA drives me crazy! Why is the WBP wording different in two different places?
Quote from: Skittl1321 on February 28, 2013, 02:46:03 PM
What takes precedence, that or the rulebook?
(It does worry me that pre-bronze says half and single jumps are allowed, where bronze doesn't mention half at all.)
I remember a few years ago (I think it was 2007) there was a new rule that got passed saying that skaters could not do more than 2 of any jump, but they somehow failed to update the balanced program charts to include it. As a result, they had to allow multiple jump repetitions at Adult Nationals. Anyway, I'm sure you will get a response from your adult committee vice-chair. :)