Let's talk about the world's top skaters -- those who have won a medal in some major event. Especially for singles, there's a lot of focus on jumps and spins. But who among our best jumpers/spinners have the best/worst skating skills (EDIT: I mean edges, turns, footwork)? And how bad are the worst skating skills?
Men:
Best - Patrick Chan (he's the undisputed king of skating skills, right?)
Worst -
Ladies:
Best - Yuna Kim (at least that's what the commentators said....dunno if this is right), Michelle Kwan (lots of people want to be like her)
Worst - Sasha Cohen??? (that's what I hear)
Pairs:
Best -
Worst -
Dance:
Best -
Worst - <I think no top ice dancer has bad skating skills though>
Men:
Daisuke Takahashi
Ladies:
Mao Asada
I don't really follow pairs or dance
Quote from: irenar5 on January 18, 2013, 07:03:00 PM
Men:
Daisuke Takahashi
Ladies:
Mao Asada
I don't really follow pairs or dance
irenar: would that be best or worst?
Quote from: sampaguita on January 18, 2013, 09:04:25 PM
irenar: would that be best or worst?
Anyone who dares to put Daisuke and Mao into the worst skating skills category will be prosecuted. Patrick Chan and Carolina Kostner obviously rank high as well.
Quote from: sampaguita on January 18, 2013, 06:43:45 PM
Let's talk about the world's top skaters -- those who have won a medal in some major event.
Do you mean major international medal? What about GP? Nationals? It's hard to say who is the worst, anyone to makes it to senior moves can't be that bad. Relatively in the US, Ryan Bradley was usually accused of scratchy skating, so was Caroline Zhang criticized for lack of speed.
For ladies worst, I nominate Surya Bonaly - especially when she first appeared on the international scene. She would change very abruptly from her transition elements to a very obvious jump set up; she really lacked in the "grace" and "flow" departments.
Quoteirenar: would that be best or worst?
the best! I did not read attentively, apparently :-)
It is surprising to me about Sasha Cohen- I have always liked her style and grace.
ITA about Surya Bonaly, though!
I also never much cared for Plushenko's transitions- lots of jump preparation without much skating in between.
I meant skating skills in terms of deep edges, flow, control -- pretty much the "skating skills" in the PCS category.
ITA on Bonaly - most of her skating was on the flat, and it was notable at the time. Not good.
Wondrous, wondrous stroking and edges - Katia Gordeeva is, for me, a world apart. I could watch her stroke around the rink for hours (if she would), nothing else, just stroking! I don't think anyone in the eligible ranks has basic skills as pure as hers - they don't teach it that way anymore. Of course she is now teaching little ones so let's see what happens there!
Gorgeous, silent edges - Yuka Sato. You cannot hear her blades at all. Magnificent.
I did notice in her show programs last year that Joannie Rochette has incredibly deep edges for a singles skater - lovely to watch that.
I hate the way Jeff Buttle uses his shoulders when he skates but from the knee down he is a work of art - gorgeous edges and foot positions. So elegant, nothing sloppy.
Strong stroking and the ability to cover more real estate with one perfect crossover than anyone - Ilia. Ilia can also sustain any edge, with the rest of his body going off in all sorts of challenging directions, longer than anyone I've ever seen - it's really quite amazing.
Of course the height of the jumps but that's obvious.
Chan's skating skills are gorgeous but his programs are (for obvious reasons) so jam-packed, frenetically full of elements that it distracts from how very wonderful his basic skills are - if he could make things simpler (which you can't do with COP) and slow down a bit, we could really enjoy seeing that. But that's not COP...(don't get me started)
I actually think Daisuke's skills are a touch, only a touch, less controlled than Chan's but I love Dai more as a artist so I'll happily gasp at anything he does.
I noticed up close at several shows (and especially in the rehearsals) what amazingly pure dance skills Peter Tchernychev still has. Everything is aligned so beautifully in a very classic way. If I knew Scott Moir's work up close as well I'm sure I'd say the same thing. But I've had the good fortune of seeing a lot over the years of Ilia, Katia, Yuka, Peter and others in rehearsal many times and it's a privilege to see such accomplished athletes work up close. Also interesting to see them really work on basics, like crossovers, just like everybody else only theirs are prettier - but they work at it still.
While there are some brilliant skaters eligible right now, I'm still a sucker for the old school of Russian skating and the skills they stressed. My age I guess. The post-Soviet Russian school that is in evidence now doesn't thrill me one bit - pretty sloppy mess compared to the old guard.
Speaking of the old guard, if you'd like to see something simple(but really hard), sensual, lovely skills, great speed and gorgeous flow, look at Usova and Zhulin (with hair) in "Blues for Klook" - still wonderful stuff after all these years. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Txih0umNOo
Quote from: platyhiker on January 18, 2013, 10:11:23 PM
For ladies worst, I nominate Surya Bonaly - especially when she first appeared on the national scene. She would change very abruptly from her transition elements to a very obvious jump set up; she really lacked in the "grace" and "flow" departments.
I agree.. I don't know why Sasha would have been nominated as 'worst'. There are a lot of skaters out there with iffy jump technique who actually have very GOOD basic skating skills and edgework... as well as natural grace on the ice, something a lot of skaters lack.
I'm not a Chan fan and I personally don't think his skating is "all that" - I think for a time he was exceptionally good at maximizing the COP in his programs, which combined with consistency resulted in a long line of success... but this season so far his consistency has faltered and he hasn't been able to stay on top.
Sasha is nominated because she wasn't particularly fast nor did she have deep edges. :)
Bonaly...worst by far.
Kim has excellent skating skills as does Kostner.
Although she's been having problems lately, I've always loved looking at Alissa Czisny. I think she's so graceful.
How Surya Bonaly ever competed succesfully is beyond me.
Watch this video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=myHKTKu4j6U
Sasha and Ilia! Two of my favourite Russians! :love: Mandatory: #sashawuzrobbed
Phew, the two examples in that video were shocking. People say Plushenko is bad, but those two ladies made him look like Patrick Chan.
Quote from: AgnesNitt on January 19, 2013, 08:08:01 PM
How Surya Bonaly ever competed succesfully is beyond me.
Watch this video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=myHKTKu4j6U
"This is a good example of a skater without flow." -- lmfao at this! What a way to introduce someone.
Quote from: sampaguita on January 20, 2013, 06:11:12 PM
"This is a good example of a skater without flow." -- lmfao at this! What a way to introduce someone.
I know, I laughed.. the Tonya Harding bit was not so flattering either :)
Quote from: sarahspins on January 22, 2013, 10:34:54 AM
I know, I laughed.. the Tonya Harding bit was not so flattering either :)
Either the scriptwriters didn't know the nuances of English, or they just were plain rude. :) "This is an example of a skater without good flow" would have been sufficient.
I mean, these skaters are MEDALISTS in ISU competitions. You mean the ISU were giving medals to skaters without good skating skills??? What's wrong with the ISU? :laugh:
Quote from: sampaguita on January 24, 2013, 06:03:20 AM
Either the scriptwriters didn't know the nuances of English, or they just were plain rude. :) "This is an example of a skater without good flow" would have been sufficient.
I mean, these skaters are MEDALISTS in ISU competitions. You mean the ISU were giving medals to skaters without good skating skills??? What's wrong with the ISU? :laugh:
Well, watch Scott Hamilton's comments in this clip.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTQ5ilIvjNE
Quote from: sampaguita on January 24, 2013, 06:03:20 AM
I mean, these skaters are MEDALISTS in ISU competitions. You mean the ISU were giving medals to skaters without good skating skills??? What's wrong with the ISU? :laugh:
Yes- they are. Because skating skills are just one component of the many things that make up PCS, and not a part of the technical component (except in it's ability to allow you to do techinical elements.)
There is no one in the world who will say Surya Bonaly had good skating skills. She won medals at worlds. Watch her and it is clear her skating skills are awful. The problem is, she clearly had something else (jumps) that others at the time did not.
There are skaters who win medals with terrible transitions. With terrible speed. Etc. But if it's all bad, you aren't going to win. However, if it is all superior, you just might, even with multiple falls (see: Patrick Chan. His components are so superior it took awhile for others to catch up with him, so he had a 2+ fall cushion for awhile. It doesn't seem to be there anymore because others have gotten better.)
Well, if there's anything that went better after elimination of figures, it's that we see better jumps. :)
My point in my previous post was, the scriptwriter didn't have to put down Bonaly so much. Of course skaters would understand that her skating skills are really bad (toe pushing at Worlds???), but it's one thing to emphasize it on an official video like that.
Or maybe it's just a cultural difference...
Quote from: Skittl1321 on January 24, 2013, 10:49:57 AMWatch her and it is clear her skating skills are awful. The problem is, she clearly had something else (jumps) that others at the time did not.
Agreed, and it's not as if we simply look back on it now and realize how bad her skating was - it was bad then, but she had the jumps and could do more in most programs than a lot of the other ladies did, and that's made much a bulk of the scores back then - less emphasis was placed on good skating and more on how many triples could be done. At least now with TES and PCS those "kinds" of skaters basically eliminate themselves from competition unless they make improvements... because the poor skating skill will effect both TES in addition to the PCS, and put a skater at so much of a disadvantage that they won't be able to make up for it elsewhere. This is why you see skaters who may have falls and other "major" mistakes still score well and come out ahead of skaters who skated "clean" programs but without the same quality to their skating.
Quote from: sampaguita on January 24, 2013, 06:03:20 AM
Either the scriptwriters didn't know the nuances of English, or they just were plain rude. :)
Well, considering that one of them was banned from competition and the other could never be successful under the COP now, I don't think it's necessarily rude, they are valid examples and a good way to point out why things have changed.
Quote from: sarahspins on January 24, 2013, 01:32:53 PM
Well, considering that one of them was banned from competition and the other could never be successful under the COP now, I don't think it's necessarily rude, they are valid examples and a good way to point out why things have changed.
I did notice in one of the other videos (sureness?) they used a young skater rather than an elite and phrased it very nicely- "this is a developing skater who has not yet developed sureness of the blade". I would like to know what an elite skater without sureness looks like though... In one of the videos they showed a SBS of Virtue/Moir and another couple who I didn't recognize doing a compulsory dance and they talked about how even though they were doing the same steps obviously one was a lot better than the other. Must be super sad to be that other team...even if the comparision is one of the very best.
There's one of the ISU videos, I think it's the one on complexity, where the only two skaters are Boitano and Orser. I assume that's because the modern rule system means the programs tend to have the same skills and don't have interesting 'little steps' like mazurkas, walleys and so on. I miss big floaty waltz jumps.
Quote from: sarahspins on January 24, 2013, 01:32:53 PM
Agreed, and it's not as if we simply look back on it now and realize how bad her skating was - it was bad then, but she had the jumps and could do more in most programs than a lot of the other ladies did, and that's made much a bulk of the scores back then - less emphasis was placed on good skating and more on how many triples could be done. At least now with TES and PCS those "kinds" of skaters basically eliminate themselves from competition unless they make improvements... because the poor skating skill will effect both TES in addition to the PCS, and put a skater at so much of a disadvantage that they won't be able to make up for it elsewhere. This is why you see skaters who may have falls and other "major" mistakes still score well and come out ahead of skaters who skated "clean" programs but without the same quality to their skating.
Well, considering that one of them was banned from competition and the other could never be successful under the COP now, I don't think it's necessarily rude, they are valid examples and a good way to point out why things have changed.
Plus this is basically a training video for judges and maybe coaches etc., as to what is considered "good flow" - so they have to point out standards of what is not good flow.
As far as Surya Bonaly goes, she was an interesting skater who had a very athletic, raw quality about her skating and yes, she had the jumps - the American commentators were constantly dinging her skating skills but she still reached a high level because of her spins and jumps - in the "old days" of 6.0 the 2nd mark was the "Performance/Execution" makr, or what was called "Artistic" - but the judges could fudge this mark a bit (or a lot sometimes) if they liked a certain skater - I remember that the European judged really liked her because she was so exotic... or so they said.
I saw her much later as a show skater and she was a great deal of fun to watch.
Not sure why Tonya HArding was in that video (and yes she was banned for life but not because of her skating skills) - she was one of those skaters that was pretty amazing to watch but when she got nervous she would just start "pumping" around the ice to get from one place to another. She was not known for her artistry but, well, she did land that triple axel in competition which even before the days of GOE and all of that really added to her programs.
I would challenge anyone who hasn't done it to attend a world or even national level competition to go to at least one event if you can and watch all of the skaters in all of the groups - it is really obvious who are the best skaters - even without the numbers -
Scott Hamilton's comments are ::>) :laugh: and indeed so true.
Quote from: slusher on January 25, 2013, 01:05:27 PM
Scott Hamilton's comments are ::>) :laugh: and indeed so true.
I don't really agree -- he seems to be more concerned about the rinks making money. And as we have seen years later, it didn't kill the sport.
Quote from: sampaguita on January 25, 2013, 06:54:52 PM
I don't really agree -- he seems to be more concerned about the rinks making money. And as we have seen years later, it didn't kill the sport.
The sport may not be dead, but it's short of breath and has bad knees. It's sad to watch video of Nationals and see half empty seats. And it's no longer on national TV. Plus some rinks cut out freestyle entirely because they can make more money with hockey. (How they expect to get coaches to teach LTS when there's no freestyle, I have no idea).
You're not from the US, am I correct? So your country's experience may be different. This is predominantly a US board, so I'm talking about US experience.
Quote from: sampaguita on January 25, 2013, 06:54:52 PM
I don't really agree -- he seems to be more concerned about the rinks making money. And as we have seen years later, it didn't kill the sport.
I agree.. I began skating in the brief era where figures were no longer a requirement but many rinks still offered "patch" sessions.. 2 in the morning and one after public ended in the evening.. the rinks lost money on those sessions, and they had been for a while.... even when figures were required it was only the "serious" skaters who worked on them, which at most rinks was at most a handful of skaters. The majority of skaters (particularly for rinks where ISI was more common) just didn't do them. There were no more patch sessions once the rink changed ownership, and they sought ways to bring in more money, which meant pushing hockey more and more which gradually took over most of the available ice time.
So our rink is one that has cut down figure skating as much as possible to cater to hockey.. there are no evening public sessions at all any more and only two evening freestyle (45min) sessions a week, which they've been trying to take away from figure skaters unless those sessions are filled and pre-paid 3 months in advance - so far enough people have rallied to keep them, but I fear that will not last. Our club can no longer purchase ice for test sessions during most of the year because it's already been purchased by hockey often as much as 6 months in advance... so it's just not available. As a result our club has been having test sessions at a local arena that has a sheet of ice... the irony there is not only is the ice maintained better, but it costs less per hour as well. I'm lucky that I can skate during the day - our morning freestyles are so crowded with high level skaters and expensive to skate on that I probably wouldn't skate at all if that's the only option I had.
Quote from: sampaguita on January 25, 2013, 06:54:52 PM
I don't really agree -- he seems to be more concerned about the rinks making money. And as we have seen years later, it didn't kill the sport.
I wasn't talking about that part, more about the ISU cocktail party requirements 8).
What are you guys talking about? It seems this thread has veered off in many directions - is this about figures or flow or ice-time for patch or Scott Hamilton or... what????
:nvm:
Quote from: AgnesNitt on January 25, 2013, 07:26:14 PM
The sport may not be dead, but it's short of breath and has bad knees. It's sad to watch video of Nationals and see half empty seats. And it's no longer on national TV. Plus some rinks cut out freestyle entirely because they can make more money with hockey. (How they expect to get coaches to teach LTS when there's no freestyle, I have no idea).
You're not from the US, am I correct? So your country's experience may be different. This is predominantly a US board, so I'm talking about US experience.
No, I'm not from the US. In my country, skating is a (extremely) minority sport, so my exposure to skating has come from watching Worlds and similar competitions. I know that it has been years since the US has made it to the top of the ladies' podium. Some may argue that that was because of the loss of compulsory figures. I think that the de-emphasis on figures has resulted in lower quality skating skills in general, but then we have skaters like Patrick Chan and Kim Yu Na who did not do figures, but have excellent skating skills.
The truth is, I don't know why the US no longer dominates the field. Coaches like Frank Carroll and John Nicks are still there, and believe it or not, the US has one of the best training environments for figure skating in the world. For comparison, in Japan, rinks are PUBLIC from 10am-6pm everyday. If you're a top level skater and you're not in Nagoya (where they have the national training rink), hockey, speed skating and figure skating share the rest of the available time. There are also few rinks for the number of skaters. And yet, Japan is now producing many of the world's top skaters.
I think that it's just the natural flow of things. Singles used to be dominated by Russians, then North Americans, and now it looks like the next powerhouse is Japan. Give it another decade and it will probably be another country.
Quote from: sampaguita on January 25, 2013, 10:54:51 PM
Some may argue that that was because of the loss of compulsory figures. I think that the de-emphasis on figures has resulted in lower quality skating skills in general, but then we have skaters like Patrick Chan and Kim Yu Na who did not do figures, but have excellent skating skills.
How do you know they are not doing figures? It is quite possible that they are - I have heard that the Japanese skaters are doing figures as part of their training.
And AFAIK Kim Yu Na trains in North America - somewhere -
Quote from: icedancer2 on January 25, 2013, 11:55:20 PM
How do you know they are not doing figures? It is quite possible that they are - I have heard that the Japanese skaters are doing figures as part of their training.
And AFAIK Kim Yu Na trains in North America - somewhere -
Kim Yu Na trained in Canada with Brian Orser prior to Vancouver. She mastered her 3Lz-3T there. After that she trained with Peter (?) Oppegard in LA, although I don't think she gained as much with Oppegard compared to what she learned with Orser (she changed coaches after a year).
As for the Japanese skaters -- AFAIK only Takahiko Kozuka did compulsory figures (his parents were skaters too, and he was coached by them). I'm pretty sure Yuzuru, Daisuke and Mao (especially Yuzuru) didn't do compulsory figures. I think they're required to draw patterns on ice as part of their moves training, but not requiring the same precision as compulsory figures.
How about Patrick Chan? Does anyone here know how he got those deep edges?
Chan was first coached by Osborne Colson who emphasized basic skills. Must included tons of figures.
"For comparison, in Japan, rinks are PUBLIC from 10am-6pm everyday...." quote by sampaguita
= heaven.
Where I am rinks are dark and locked up. There is 5-6 hours a WEEK of public ice time per rink max. Then there is about the same rented by the local Skate Canada figure skating club, then hockey practices every day after school evening. 80% of the time the place is deserted. Ice time is over $100.00/hr and they would rather see the place empty and silent than to just open it up for skaters to practice. The rinks are all owned and run by the municipality on tax dollars. So nobody gives a damn really. A for-profit rink would be looking for skaters to drop a toonie in the tin and skate for an hour...
Quote from: jjane45 on January 26, 2013, 12:29:37 PM
Chan was first coached by Osborne Colson who emphasized basic skills. Must included tons of figures.
I was going to post this exactly as well. Mr. Colson didn't let Chan jump any "big" jumps when he was young and instead made him learn figures.
Also, Kim was taught figures in her native South Korean. She had full compliment of her elements before going to Canada.
Quote from: ONskater74 on January 26, 2013, 01:30:51 PM
"For comparison, in Japan, rinks are PUBLIC from 10am-6pm everyday...." quote by sampaguita
= heaven.
Where I am rinks are dark and locked up. There is 5-6 hours a WEEK of public ice time per rink max. Then there is about the same rented by the local Skate Canada figure skating club, then hockey practices every day after school evening. 80% of the time the place is deserted. Ice time is over $100.00/hr and they would rather see the place empty and silent than to just open it up for skaters to practice. The rinks are all owned and run by the municipality on tax dollars. So nobody gives a damn really. A for-profit rink would be looking for skaters to drop a toonie in the tin and skate for an hour...
I actually prefer public sessions to freestyle sessions, especially since they were less expensive on a per hour basis! But I can understand how this can be a pain for top-level skaters.
But this is interesting about Canada. When I visited Canada, I was surprised at the number of rinks (is hockey the national sport?), and how many people actually learn to skate when they're young (like the way every girl takes ballet or every boy takes basketball at some point in their lives).
Quote from: techskater on January 26, 2013, 05:15:35 PM
I was going to post this exactly as well. Mr. Colson didn't let Chan jump any "big" jumps when he was young and instead made him learn figures.
Also, Kim was taught figures in her native South Korean. She had full compliment of her elements before going to Canada.
Ah, that explains it. Didn't know Kim did figures. Where did you hear/read this, techskater?
Quote from: sampaguita on January 26, 2013, 07:54:19 PM
is hockey the national sport?
It's more like hockey is the national RELIGION! :D Hockey is HUGE in Canada. I went to college in upstate New York, and a lot (2/3?) of the hockey team was Canadian. In fact, at the start of every game, both the Canadian and USA national anthems were sung. I thought the Canadian national anthem sounds really nice, and is much more singable then the USA one.
religion is too mild a term..... :o
Rink time is crowded with runny nosed NHL wanna be's in full hockey gear who can hardly stand up. They run around the rink blindly falling all over in front of you, crashing into you, hockey stick in hand, pretending they are Wayne Gretzky or something. I have played hockey twice in my life. Hate it.
Boy's hockey, girl's hockey, men's hockey, ladies hockey, shinny, pickup hockey, seniors hockey, intramural, houseleague. ... :bash:
Quote from: ONskater74 on January 27, 2013, 12:33:48 PM
religion is too mild a term..... :o
Rink time is crowded with runny nosed NHL wanna be's in full hockey gear who can hardly stand up. They run around the rink blindly falling all over in front of you, crashing into you, hockey stick in hand, pretending they are Wayne Gretzky or something. I have played hockey twice in my life. Hate it.
Boy's hockey, girl's hockey, men's hockey, ladies hockey, shinny, pickup hockey, seniors hockey, intramural, houseleague. ... :bash:
To me, the worst thing about hockey dominating the rinks in Canada is the SMELL!!!!! OMG!!! That stench could take me down.
It was in a Chosun article a couple years ago when she was moving to Canada