Thanks to everyone's good advice (http://skatingforums.com/index.php?topic=3931.0), I'd planned on going to both our rink's pro shop and to USA Skates which is a bit of a drive away to get a fitting for new skates. But then I got back from my holiday and realized I didn't have time for a long drive! (More likely 2 trips since I'd get a fitting, discuss with my coach, then go actually buy it. And if there was any problems I'd have to go again.) I asked around a bit more at the rink and one of the skaters who told me to avoid the rink's pro shop meant to avoid his sharpenings. Another skater also goes to the rink's pro shop. So I decided to trust my coach and off I went to talk to the rink's pro shop guy.
He wasn't as crabby as I remembered him to be that one time I'd been there, and he did seem to know what he was doing, so I was quite happy with the visit. He tried me in Jackson Premiere and the GAM Select - he said it's equivalent of a Jackson Freestyle (he didn't have the Freestyle in my size). GAM Select and Jackson Freestyle have stiffness ratings of 45 and my current GAM Horizon are 40, so when I tried on the GAM select, it really didn't feel much different to my current boots. Quite comfortable, especially compared to the Premiere. The Premiere on the other hand, was stiff! I tried sarahspins test to see if I could bend my knees over my toes and I could. However, I'm not sure if that's because the boot wasn't laced very tight. I will definitely try them on again before I make a decision.
When I told him I skated 3-4 times a week and how fast I'd broken down the GAM Horizon, he said that the Freestyle/Select might break down in less than a year (since I'm not pixie sized). He said that if I wanted the skates to last and if I can afford it, he'd suggest the Premiere. I talked to my coach afterwards, she'd done a bit more research on skates and basically suggested the same thing - that if I think I can stand the pain of the break-in period, I should go with the Premiere.
So anyway, it's really down to my own decision. I think I'm leaning more towards the Premiere, the Select didn't seem all that different to the Horizon, but I'm terrified of the break-in! I never had a break-in period with the Horizon, so I can only imagine how horrible it's going to be!
Hopefully, I'll be showing off my new skates soon - one or the other!
Why not consider competitor, which is between freestyle and premier? Yewz the premier is stiffer, but i find it has better comfort features than freestle or competitor. Still, if it is too stiff, it won't work for you. I have tiny jumps and am not very big, but didn't think the premiers had much break in time.
However, regardless of stiffness rating, I would jot consider having tried on a GAM skate meaning anything about how the Jackson will end up feeling. There are brand differences. They might be similiar, but are not the same.
I'm also in competitor. Got them two years ago used and already broken in, the last time I checked they still got maybe a year. I was told I'm hard on the skates.
I asked the pro shop guy about the Competitor. He said it's only a little bit less stiff than the Premiere. If I'm going to get something stiffer than Freestyle, then I might as well go with the better Premiere. I didn't argue with this since I'd seen many people (I think you included, Skittl?) say that the Premiere is much more comfortable than the Competitor.
Yes I thought that I shouldn't just equate the GAM Select to the Jackson Freestyle, but since the GAM Select fit pretty nicely, the Freestyle can only be worse in that respect. As to stiffness-wise, they have the same stiffness rating, so I guess it will feel kind of the same, which is not much stiffer than my current ones. Besides, if I'm just upgrading to the Freestyle/Select level, and the GAM fits me, then I don't see why I should insist on getting a Jackson Freestyle instead. So I guess I really should have been talking about choosing between GAM Select and Jackson Premiere.
Skittl, what skates did you have before the Premiere and how long was the break-in for those? I'm hoping that since I didn't suffer any break-in for the GAM Horizon, maybe I'm hard on skates too and won't have much of a problem!
What's your skating level? I skate in Freestyles, and was able to break them in using crossovers, stroking, and 3-turns in around 3-4 sessions that are one hour long. My videos are all over the Video Vault :blush: if you're interested in a comparison. If you're doing jumps, I think Freestyle is out of the question, if the Competitor/Premiere are within your budget.
My only issue with my Freestyles is that the heel padding compresses over time, so that now my heel slips. I remedy this by using cosmetic pads under my socks, but it's very inconvenient -- if I put the pads in the wrong place I hurt my feet. Other members of this forum have had the same problem with other models, so I think it's a Jackson problem, not a Freestyle one.
Quote from: Janie on September 20, 2012, 02:38:50 AM
Skittl, what skates did you have before the Premiere and how long was the break-in for those?
I had the Competitor, but the old style, so they were stiffer than the current Competitor and probably more like the Premier, without the comfort tongue and boot edge. Break-in time is tough to say. The ones I had that were brand new were WAY too small for me, I was just fitted wrong, so they were horrible. Then the ones I got after them were used, so it was more of a "get used to". However, I skated in them for 2-3 years (can't remember) and they still have no creases. The girl who had them before me beat them up like crazy (cuts and scuffs), so I'd imagine she had at least 2 years in them too.
Actually, even with the Premiers is was more of a "get used to" period than a break in. The never hurt me at all. Actually, when I first got them I felt I could wear them without my Silipos pads (a must for my previous skates, as the leather on the top cut my ankles- I have scars). I think it was probably the new blades that were causing my inability to skate, not my new skates. I just didn't lace the top hook for awhile. I do wear the Silipos now- I think that part of it is the compression thing sampaguita is talking about. They seem "roomier" than before, but I think the overall feel is perfect, when they were brand new, it was almost hard to get the foot into the skate, the padding of the skate was so thick (but once on, they felt great).
I agree with you if you like the GAM Select, get those- not a Jackson you've never tried on.
I have a year-old pair of Jackson Competitors and I don't like them at all. I bought them as spares to use as needed if/when I had to have my Klingbeils repaired. I'm planning to sell them because they're just too different from my usual skates.
The boot comes up way too high above my ankle; I've never used the top hooks because they inhibit proper knee bend. They were really stiff to break in and I had to heat-mold them to get them to fit my feet. Just wearing them for hours each week wasn't getting the job done. It's one thing for the support to be stiff; it's another when the lining/padding is hard.
Having tried my DD's Freestyles, I think they're a much more appropriate boot for lower-level freestyle skating than the Competitors. I also don't think skaters just learning singles need the stiffness of the Premiers and it might hold them back from being able to flex their feet properly for jumps and spin entries. Just mho.
I don't know anyone who has GAM skates, sorry.
Quote from: sampaguita on September 20, 2012, 04:07:53 AM
What's your skating level?
Oops forgot to mention that!
I've landed up to single Lutz for jumps, and working on sit spins and camels for spins. I started learning figure skating since Oct/Nov 2011, and have had my current GAM Horizons for 8-9 months, but they're breaking down. I love jumping and I've been told that I learn jumps pretty fast. My coach said that I jump quite high (totally made my day when she said this!) so I might break down Freestyles in less than a year.
I guess my main reason for preferring the Premieres is that I don't want to be getting another pair in less than a year, which sounds like what's going to happen if I get the Freestyles/GAM Select. Getting new skates now after only 8-9 months is already unexpected for me.
Thanks for all the advice jjane, Skittl, sampaguita and FigureSpins.
A friend of mine is a powerful jumper, he completely broke down the freestyles in less than two years, working on high singles, axels, and beginner doubles. I think he waited until the last minute for new boots.
If you are an adult working on a lutz, you shouldn't be overbooted in a Premier.
A pixie sized skater would likely be fine in the freestyle, but you said that is not you. Don't get a low level boot you'll just need to replace.
It's normal for freestyle boots to last no longer than 8-12 months. The only way they last longer is through overbooting, which produces injuries and delays progress. Kids usually outgrow their skates before they break down, but adults don't have that issue. I was a strong jumper on outdoor ice and I had new skates rebuilt after six months, then replaced after 8 months. I finally moved up to the mid-level Klingbeil stiffness and got a lot of use of the skates, but they were rebuilt twice.
I understand the cost implications of buying new skates. I buy THREE pair of boots pretty much every year. Overbooting yourself means you're spending more money up front and incurring more costs through extra practices and lessons while you fight the boots to break-in and master the skills. Over the life of the stiffer boot, you'll end up paying more than you would for two pairs of proper-level boots, imo.
If you had a strong boot break down in less than 8 months, then I would say you need a stiffer boot, but seriously, if you're doing camels and lutzes on recreational skates like the GAM Horizons (stiffness level 25!), you don't to jump up the stiffness ladder two or three levels. Your ankles and feet are very strong and you must have coordination and balance. You were using the wrong skates to do freestyle; the Horizons weren't intended for those skating skills. Once you started jumping in them, the boot death clock ran faster, lol.
I had a skater change from a Jackson Glacier to a Freestyle a few months ago. (It's approximately the same difference in stiffness.) She had the skates broken in within a month and her progress has really taken off. If she had bought the Premiere's, she'd still be trying to get the boots to bend at the ankle. I think you'll be fine in the Jackson Freestyle/GAM Select for a year or so. The Premieres will last two or three years, but you'll progress faster in the lower-level skates.
The one change I would recommend is to buy a separate boot/blade combination. The stock blades are okay for your current level but you'll need a higher-level blade for doubles and flying spins. Since you're probably not going to get the same stock blade with the new boots anyway, you might as well upgrade now and save yourself the adjustment time later.
Quote from: Skittl1321 on September 20, 2012, 03:35:39 PM
If you are an adult working on a lutz, you shouldn't be overbooted in a Premier.
I mentioned in the other thread that my fitter advised me getting new competitor / used elite when I started loop / flip jump and needed new boots. I thought the elite would be too stiff, and bought a pair of used competitor on consignment.
Do you consider buying second hand at all? Do they have anything on consignment? Although depending on your shoe size, higher level boots in good condition may be harder to come by (they break down before grown out)...
Quote from: FigureSpins on September 20, 2012, 03:39:34 PM
If you had a strong boot break down in less than 8 months, then I would say you need a stiffer boot, but seriously, if you're doing camels and lutzes on recreational skates like the GAM Horizons (stiffness level 25!), you don't to jump up the stiffness ladder two or three levels. Your ankles and feet are very strong and you must have coordination and balance. You were using the wrong skates to do freestyle; the Horizons weren't intended for those skating skills. Once you started jumping in them, the boot death clock ran faster, lol.
Oh wow, I've been looking at this (http://www.shop.kinziescloset.com/GAM-Horizon-G0021-Ice-Skates-Womens-GAMG0021.htm) which says that the GAM Horizon has stiffness rating of 40! If it's 25 I guess that's a
very big jump then. I'll talk to my coach and pro shop guy a bit more. (Just wanted to point out that
working on camels does not equate
doing camels lol! I doubt I'll be getting them any time soon.)
I don't think our pro shop has much second hand stuff, jjane.
I really like all the information on that site, but several of our members have said that some of their recommendations and specifics are incorrect. I always try to go to the vendor for information, not resellers. Sometimes, the person putting handling the online setup doesn't know a thing about skates, so typos and mistakes go unnoticed. I think a vendor would verify their published information more carefully.
GAM Product Line:
http://www.gamskates.com/en/Index.aspx?category=UfbuHLZ3VZ6gASpSrB10FA1A2B3C4D5E1A2B3C4D5E
Jackson Product Line:
http://www.jacksonultima.com/en/Index.aspx?category=Hyj9ffYh1a2b3c4d5efoKMxcsH9to4g1A2B3C4D5E1A2B3C4D5E
Did you know that the shops can order the right size/width skates for you? You don't have to settle for what's in stock, especially if the width or length is wrong. It means an extra trip if they don't have it in stock, but given the cost of skates, it's worth the trip.
Thanks FigureSpins!
I'm sure I have the correct size/width though, my current skates fit me perfectly, and the new ones that I'm trying on fit too (it's just stiff). I don't have a problem with that, thanks :)
Quote from: sampaguita on September 20, 2012, 04:07:53 AM
My only issue with my Freestyles is that the heel padding compresses over time, so that now my heel slips. I remedy this by using cosmetic pads under my socks, but it's very inconvenient -- if I put the pads in the wrong place I hurt my feet. Other members of this forum have had the same problem with other models, so I think it's a Jackson problem, not a Freestyle one.
This is not a Jackson-specific problem, but a general skate fitting problem. I had this same thing in SPTeri. Actually, I have this problem with street shoes, too.
Quote from: Janie on September 20, 2012, 02:09:07 PM
Oops forgot to mention that!
I've landed up to single Lutz for jumps, and working on sit spins and camels for spins. I started learning figure skating since Oct/Nov 2011, and have had my current GAM Horizons for 8-9 months, but they're breaking down. I love jumping and I've been told that I learn jumps pretty fast. My coach said that I jump quite high (totally made my day when she said this!) so I might break down Freestyles in less than a year.
I guess my main reason for preferring the Premieres is that I don't want to be getting another pair in less than a year, which sounds like what's going to happen if I get the Freestyles/GAM Select. Getting new skates now after only 8-9 months is already unexpected for me.
Thanks for all the advice jjane, Skittl, sampaguita and FigureSpins.
If I were you, I would go for the Premiere boots. My daughter was in Freestyle boots until 2 weeks ago. She has had them for 18 mos and they are completely broken down. She weighs 110 pounds and is 5 ft 3. She is a preliminary level skater landing axels and some double jumps. Starting this week, she will be in the Premiere boot. If you are on a lutz already and broke down our other boots that quickly, I wouldn't bother with Freestyle boots. Go for the premiere. If you do get them, have them heat molded. That might help lessen the break in period. To be honest, I tried my daughter's skates on last week. I am a low level skater but I was curious how they felt. They are stiff, but they felt comfy too! I didn't skate in them or leave them on long but they seemed comfy. Dd will start breaking hers in tomorrow . I will let you know what she says!
Figurespins makes great points! If the boot you are in now is a stiffness level of 25, the Freestyle would be fine for you. Like I said, my daughter had her Freestyle boots for 18 months. We noticed them breaking down at about 15 months. She was about 89 pounds when she started wearing them and gained 20 pounds while in them. I know quite a few skaters landing doubles in Freestyle boots. One girl at our rink is 16 and 5 ft8 and average weight, landing axels in Freestyle boots. She had those boots for over a yr too. She just moved into the Premiere boot per the fitters recommendation .
I agree with the suggestion of upgrading your blade. At your level, you would probably be fine using something like the Ultima Legacy, MK Professional, Wilson Coronation Ace or perhaps the Ultima Elite blade. There are also light weight blades like the Ultima Matrix series. Your fitter and coach can help with that choice. Dd had MK Professional blades on her last pair of Freestyle boots. If you learn jumps easily, you might want to consider the Ultima Elite blade. The toe pick is similar to the MK Vision blade the the Elite is much less expensive then the vision. We considered that blade for dd and opted for the Matrix Legacy blade instead. Good luck and happy shopping!
Thanks! I'll talk to my coach a bit more before making any decisions!
So it's done! I just paid for new skates - GAM Select (=Jackson Freestyle level) with Ultima Legacy blades.
The final reason that prompted me to choose the lower level Select instead of Jackson Premiere, was the question I asked my coach.
"What would you recommend if I didn't say I want the skates to be able to last for a while?"
Her answer was the Freestyle/Select. She also thinks that they should be able to last for at least a year (whereas the pro shop guy gave it 8-9 months). Let's hope coach is right! And on top of that, I should be able to add a couple more months if I "reinforce" the boot like doubletoe suggested (http://skatingforums.com/index.php?topic=3935.0).
I was just too worried that I wouldn't be able to handle the stiffness if I went from a GAM Horizon (stiffness level 25) with Mark IV blade to a Jackson Premiere (level 65) with Ultima Legacy. Besides the obvious large jump in stiffness, it's also a slightly different brand of boot (even though they've merged), and also a much better blade and change in toe pick. I don't think I'd have any problem outperforming the boots before I break them down, and I can keep the blade when I do need a new boot, so I'll basically have spent an extra $200 overall, but giving myself much more comfort.
I tried the GAM Select on again before I made the final decision. They were really comfortable, I don't even need to punch out anything or heatmold. I feel like I won't have any trouble breaking them in. I can pick them up tomorrow and I'm really excited!
Thanks again to everyone who has given me advice!
I think that's a more than reasonable decision :)
Great choice! Don't know anything about the boots, but those are fabulous blades.
It's totally too late to change anything, and I don't regret my choice in not getting the Premiere, but I want to be prepared...
I had absolutely no trouble breaking in my new boots, in fact, I don't think it was even a break-in at all! I laced all the way to the top after about fifteen minutes and was fine with bending both knees and ankles. I could jump and I could even practice sit spins (whatever was stopping me from jumping much was my fear of the new blades). I guess I should just be happy that I'm not suffering, but does this mean that I'll likely be breaking down these boots in less than a year?
Probably, but based on your previous post,you were already expecting this to happen, and were prepared for the possibility. :) Still, I think it's a reasonable decision if budget was not an issue. :)
Quote from: Janie on September 29, 2012, 03:56:48 AM
It's totally too late to change anything, and I don't regret my choice in not getting the Premiere, but I want to be prepared...
I had absolutely no trouble breaking in my new boots, in fact, I don't think it was even a break-in at all! I laced all the way to the top after about fifteen minutes and was fine with bending both knees and ankles. I could jump and I could even practice sit spins (whatever was stopping me from jumping much was my fear of the new blades). I guess I should just be happy that I'm not suffering, but does this mean that I'll likely be breaking down these boots in less than a year?
Is it normal with new boots at this stiffness? I only had used boots that are already broken in, so cannot comment on this.
I have heard that if you can do everything the first few days the boots were never stiff enough, but every boot fitter I've been to seems to have a different idea of what stiffness to put everyone in. I wouldn't worry about it. Enjoy your new boots!
The OP tied the skates tightly at the start, but then relaced them more loosely, which gave her more knee room. She's skated one session and declared that the boots are "broken in." That's impossible. I think that, given her ability to do single jumps and sit/camel spins in the old rec skates, she has great balance and strength. The additional support and lower-cut boot are advantages that are letting her skate well from the start in stiffer skates. It doesn't mean the skates aren't stiff enough.
Technically, what qualifies the skates as "broken in"?
Technically, if they provide support without impinging forward ankle bend. They also have to be molded to the foot, which heat-molding expedites.
Quote from: FigureSpins on September 29, 2012, 05:30:32 PM
She's skated one session and declared that the boots are "broken in." That's impossible.
That is my point though. I'm not trying to say that oh I've broken in my boots already, I'm saying that I felt like they didn't need breaking in at all.
For example, a skater who has just started skating would need to break in their new Jackson Classique boots. However, a skater who has already gone way up to say Jackson Elites, probably would not need to break in a new pair of Classiques at all, because even at its stiffest, they're not as stiff as a broken-in Elite. I'm totally exaggerating in this example here, I know I am no where near to being in an Elite, I'm just trying to explain my point.
I also do
not think that my new boots are not stiff enough, I'm pretty sure they are adequate. I'm merely wondering if the fact that I have no trouble breaking them in means I'll be breaking them down sooner than a year. If there's no straight answer to that, then don't worry it doesn't really matter, it's not like I can change anything, and I'm satisfied with the boots as they are now. Just wanted to be prepared.
Quote from: FigureSpins on September 29, 2012, 05:30:32 PM
The additional support and lower-cut boot are advantages that are letting her skate well from the start in stiffer skates. It doesn't mean the skates aren't stiff enough.
Actually, the new boots aren't lower-cut. I put them together and they look pretty much the same (of course, I'm just eyeballing it, so I could be slightly wrong).
Quote from: FigureSpins on September 29, 2012, 06:00:06 PM
Technically, if they provide support without impinging forward ankle bend. They also have to be molded to the foot, which heat-molding expedites.
See it never impinged my forward ankle bend at all. They don't quite fit my feet as comfortably as the old boots did though, so that still requires some breaking in on that end.
Good luck with your new skates.
Thank you :)
I could do everything pretty much right away in the last 3 "new" pairs of boots I've skated in.. the usual method I have is to get comfortable with some moves, then spins, then jumps, and in fact my Elite Supremes had much more immediate forward knee bend than my old Elite Plus did when new. I think the double flex notches make the difference there though, as they are technically stiffer than my old boots.
I think the "ability" to do anything in new boots has a lot to do with technique and confidence (combined with not being afraid to fall) than the stiffness of the boots.
Thank you sarahspins! That was very helpful! I was so used to seeing everyone having a bad time breaking in new skates that I wondered if it was abnormal to not need to. Glad to know someone to have the same situation and to be still fine with their boots.
Thanks again :love:
There is also something to be said for the difference between 'adjusting' to new skates and 'breaking in' new skates - those two things are not the same but I think they're often used interchangeably. Adjusting to a new heel height or different/newer rocker profile can be very difficult for some skaters, even if the boots themselves are not causing any problems or pain. My opinion is that sometimes you get lucky, and other times it takes much more time and tweaking to get things "just right".