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I was thinking about tweaking the order in which I do certain moves and was wondering what other people do. Which side do you start your moves on?

Totally depends on the move and how it flows around the rink.

If it were up to me, I'd start everything on my weak side to get it out of the way and finish the move strong. My coach generally makes me follow the diagrams in the tests book (and yes, I know the rules state you can start most moves on either foot, but the diagram is generally what is most handy), which, depending on the move, can mean starting on the weak side for some and the strong side for others. 

Most of the Moves patterns can be done starting on either foot or moving in the direction opposite that shown in the test book pattern.  You have to read the tests book thoroughly to make sure you're in compliance.

Some people feel more comfortable starting on their "strong" foot/side, others like to finish with a bang.  (I take the latter approach; it makes me stronger to start on my weak side and more relaxed to end strong.) 

For the most part, I have my students skate patterns as shown in the rulebook, but I've relaxed about some patterns.  For example: on the Pre-Prel spirals, the book pattern starts with the RF spiral.  We start with the rulebook version and if they can do that and the opposite version, it's not a big deal.  The judge has to pay attention since their form has it listed in RF/LF order.  Doing the LF spiral first doesn't affect anyone but the skater/judge(s).  It's allowed, per the tests book. 

I always ask skaters to start the Alternating Edges on the Line pattern starting with the right foot every time.  It eliminates some of the confusion about which edge is next and helps them remember to count their lobes to end with an even number so spacing is more even.  However, I would let them start with the left foot IF they started with it on each pattern or if they could pull of mixing-and-matching without getting confused.  That move is performed solo in a controlled space, so it doesn't affect anyone but the skater and the judge(s).

If all test-takers skate the patterns as shown in the rulebook, the test session runs more efficiently and allows multiple skaters to test at the same time.  I think you should make it easy on the judges.  When a skater starts on the opposite foot/direction on a perimeter pattern, it means that the referee cannot double/triple panel that particular test.  The skater must perform it solo after/before everyone else on that level because of traffic considerations.  That only affects the lower-level tests, but I assume that's what category you're in.

I haven't had problems with my weak side until hitting the edge pulls, my right leg is just so much weaker, forward and backward.

If I start on the strong side, it would be painfully obvious that the weak side is terrible because I cannot get enough momentum into it at the mid line. Starting on the weak side, it magically evens out :)

Yep, power pulls is another where I typically let the skater start on their weak side, given that otherwise the whole thing will die by the end.

(That said, I make my kids work on power pulls ad nauseum, through all the levels, & eventually there IS no weak side anymore!! Make your peace with them--they are the basis of all higher level skating. :)

Quote from: jjane45 on September 11, 2012, 11:46:06 AM
I haven't had problems with my weak side until hitting the edge pulls, my right leg is just so much weaker, forward and backward.

If I start on the strong side, it would be painfully obvious that the weak side is terrible because I cannot get enough momentum into it at the mid line. Starting on the weak side, it magically evens out :)

Funny you should mention that, as edge pulls is what I was thinking about when I started this topic. My left leg is the weaker of the two, and it's very obvious in the back power pulls. Coach suggested starting on it while I have a little momentum from the end pattern.

Quote from: FigureSpins on September 11, 2012, 11:18:37 AM
Some people feel more comfortable starting on their "strong" foot/side, others like to finish with a bang.  (I take the latter approach; it makes me stronger to start on my weak side and more relaxed to end strong.) 

I feel the same way--that starting on the weak side 1) makes it stronger and 2) lets me relax and really focus on presenting as I end. But I don't do this unless I have had some marked trouble with my bad side on the move. Otherwise, I just start with whatever is natural or whatever is in the diagram.

Quote from: FigureSpins on September 11, 2012, 11:18:37 AM
If all test-takers skate the patterns as shown in the rulebook, the test session runs more efficiently and allows multiple skaters to test at the same time.  I think you should make it easy on the judges.  When a skater starts on the opposite foot/direction on a perimeter pattern, it means that the referee cannot double/triple panel that particular test.  The skater must perform it solo after/before everyone else on that level because of traffic considerations.  That only affects the lower-level tests, but I assume that's what category you're in.

When I tested power threes, I started with my right foot (CW lobe) but I still proceeded CCW around the rink. It was my coach's suggestion to start on that side because for me it was weaker, but she made it clear that I still had to proceed the same way around the rink. I don't think this would have been a problem if the test was double-paneled, but out of curiosity, what is the highest level test that can be double paneled?

That

Quote from: alejeather on September 11, 2012, 01:11:51 PM
When I tested power threes, I started with my right foot (CW lobe) but I still proceeded CCW around the rink. It was my coach's suggestion to start on that side because for me it was weaker, but she made it clear that I still had to proceed the same way around the rink. I don't think this would have been a problem if the test was double-paneled, but out of curiosity, what is the highest level test that can be double paneled?

That's a smart idea.  It provides some flexibility for the skater while not interfering with any other skaters.
Where did you start and what introductory steps did you use?

The USFSA Test Chair Guide says "lower-level" Moves tests that can be double-paneled are up to Juvenile, but Juvenile through Novice can be double-paneled in a pinch.  I've seen Juvenile MITF double-paneled, but never anything higher.

There are two different ways to double-panel.  One method has the skaters give each other a "head start" before starting their own pattern.  The other has each skater complete the pattern before the next skater goes.  I think the latter is nerve-racking for the skaters at the end of the line, lol.

For me it really depends on why that move/side is weak, or what the expected order of the moves is.   Plus some "weak" moves are really not as weak as others.  For example I have a weak side on power pulls (and it's a different side forwards and backwards) but you might not notice it watching me - I just know that it feels like it takes at least 2X as much effort to make the move look as good and flow with the same power as my "strong" side.

I don't seem to have any issues in general turning (mohawks or 3's) either direction (CW is just as good as CCW), but I do have one 3 turn I don't like because I hate the feeling of the lateral pressure it puts on my knee (because I have OA in that knee) - that is the RBI turn, which happens to be a CW turn, but I don't dislike it because it's CW, it's all about my knee not liking it.  I can do the turn, it just tends to freak me out because I get this twingy pain that throws me off, and unfortunately it happens right at the shift from inside to outside.  That same knee doesn't really like holding a RBI edge either - doing the BO/BI 8 on gold, that's the one circle that I still struggle with.

That said though, while most turns aren't really a problem in terms of direction, I do find doing (figure) loops and twizzles harder CW than CCW, but I know with time and practice those will improve and get better... I think most of it comes from having just not spent a ton of time on those.  Twizzles in the direction I normally spin just feel more natural than the other way.

Quote from: FigureSpins on September 11, 2012, 01:40:30 PM
That's a smart idea.  It provides some flexibility for the skater while not interfering with any other skaters.
Where did you start and what introductory steps did you use?

I started with my back to the boards, looking down the short axis of the rink. I took two quick strokes R-L and then started right into the RFO 3 as soon as I got to the imaginary line running down the red dots. The introductory steps were added late in the game--I had been starting from a stand-still--but my first lobe suffered from not having any speed.

My pre-bronze MITF test was double-paneled with a girl taking preliminary moves. In pre-bronze, it's unavoidable that you have to go around the rink CW because of the perimeter stroking. I almost collided with the poor other girl during our respective end patterns. I never thought to expect that.

Quote from: sarahspins on September 11, 2012, 02:15:40 PM
I don't seem to have any issues in general turning (mohawks or 3's) either direction (CW is just as good as CCW), I do have one 3 turn I don't like because I hate the feeling of the lateral pressure it puts on my knee (because I have OA in that knee) - that is the RBI turn, which happens to be a CW turn, but I don't dislike it because it's CW...

I've experienced the same thing--that a weak side may not be weak because it's your preferred direction of rotation or even stronger leg. For me starting the power 3s on my right foot wasn't because my turns on that foot are weaker, but because the step forward after the crossover was more awkward (I think one hip is more open than the other) which made the whole pattern on that side a bit weaker. If only our bodies were evenly balanced and healthy on both sides!

Quote from: alejeather on September 11, 2012, 01:11:51 PM
Funny you should mention that, as edge pulls is what I was thinking about when I started this topic. My left leg is the weaker of the two, and it's very obvious in the back power pulls. Coach suggested starting on it while I have a little momentum from the end pattern.

Well, I was about to get a thread going on the weak side of power pulls! :)

I work on both sides forward and backward for the whole rink length, so maybe the weak side is not horrible. But starting with the weak side really feels better as there is more momentum going in.

One other thing that changes which starts first is the expected starting point of the moves. For example, I've been on a MIF test double paneled and the other skater and I discussed which direction we preferred to skate first for alternating moves. Also, for some test areas, it's expected you start on the side closest to the judges and other it's away which changes which foot I'd start for counters and rockers.

Other than injuries, what causes one side to be weaker than another?

ETA: what about elements that do not involve CW / CWW turns? (e.g. edge pulls down the long axis?)

Quote from: jjane45 on September 12, 2012, 09:17:05 AM
Other than injuries, what causes one side to be weaker than another?

I think rotational direction preference can have something to do with it. I'm more comfortable with most of my CCW turns than I am CW, which totally makes sense because I jump and spin CCW. So the MITF that involve CCW 3's tend to work better for me than tho

Oddly enough, my left knee is the one with issues, and yet those are my better power pulls (relatively speaking - they're all pretty bad)  :)

Quote from: jjane45 on September 12, 2012, 09:17:05 AM
Other than injuries, what causes one side to be weaker than another?

ETA: what about elements that do not involve CW / CWW turns? (e.g. edge pulls down the long axis?)

Everyone has a stronger and a weaker side. You chose the stronger hand to write with. You'll have a preference towards kicking a ball with one foot over another. Rotation direction happens to be another of those things, but isn't actually related to whether you're right handed or right footed.

We have skills, the patterns can start at the starting point or halfway in, and almost all the patterns are one rotation or leg down one side then switch to other rotation or leg. So if we're doing the second half first, we just start at that point.    It annoys one of my colleagues to no end, but I start teaching a pattern (or individual turns) in the skaters perceived bad side first.  For three turns, we learn LFI first, bad leg, bad rotation.     Then on pattern, the second half first which is all the left leg turns.    My point being, by the time they've got the "bad" ones up to a passing standard the good ones will be there. 

Whereas, coaches who start off with the RFO/RFI set have great skaters for the first side and then they stop dead when they hit the other side.   So the skater practices the pattern over and over, flies down one side and makes that even better and the bad side gets somewhat better.  It would be a point that the judges would make on test sheet, even if both were of passing standard, that one side was weaker (not, one side was stronger).

It's okay to occasionally do the good side, in a way that you're modelling the technique to the bad side, this would be for adults self-instructing, eg, when I do this RFO, this arm is here this leg is there.... therefore if I mirror those, it should make the LFO work.....

I completely stole this teaching technique from my piano teacher who would open the book and point to a spot and say start here.  Because we all started at the beginning and faltered at the nasty bits.   It all had to be of the same quality.

If the order doesn't make any difference to you, I'd start on the weak side so that the judges are impressed by the strong side instead of being disappointed by the weak side.  But if you lack confidence, then doing the move on your strong side first might give you more confidence before doing the weak side.

 :'( The outside mohawks on the Silver MIF.  The right outside mohawk and I are not good friends.  Considering I'm a lefty and that's basically a waltz jump on the ice, I cannot understand why I can't seem to get it smooth or with some speed. 

Quote from: Kitten23 on October 03, 2012, 02:36:53 PM
:'( The outside mohawks on the Silver MIF.  The right outside mohawk and I are not good friends.  Considering I'm a lefty and that's basically a waltz jump on the ice, I cannot understand why I can't seem to get it smooth or with some speed.

I think it makes sense for a lefty to not like the right outside mohawk.  It is a CCW turn, you likely favor CW turns.

I've never thought outside mohawks resemble waltz jumps. I just got up and did both, and can't figure out why they are the 'same'- can you explain your thought process a little further.  I'm wondering if thinking of it that way might help me, because my right outside mohawk is horrible.

Quote from: Kitten23 on October 03, 2012, 02:36:53 PM
:'( The outside mohawks on the Silver MIF.  The right outside mohawk and I are not good friends.  Considering I'm a lefty and that's basically a waltz jump on the ice, I cannot understand why I can't seem to get it smooth or with some speed.

A FO Mohawk is not the same as a "Waltz jump on the ice."  Your body has to turn in the opposite direction, lol.

That's the reason a FO mohawk is difficult: you're turning against the natural rotation of that edge.

I always do them as listed in the rule book.

I was double-paneled for pre-bronze moves years ago and we did most of them on half ice. I've also been double-paneled for dances, with couples starting at opposite ends. I got iffy comments for freaking out and not having as good a second pattern when the other couple didn't complete the required number of patterns and exited the ice early--they passed me but they passed the other skater as well, without making her come back and complete the correct number of patterns!

I once saw Preliminary moves double-paneled with a weak skater and a strong skater--the strong skater lapped the weak skater.

I hate double-paneling!!!

Quote from: FigureSpins on October 03, 2012, 03:03:11 PM
That's the reason a FO mohawk is difficult: you're turning against the natural rotation of that edge.

But they aren't difficult on the other side! So it isn't the FO that is diifcult, just the rotation.   A LFO mohawk is much easier (for me) than an RFI one.

Quote from: sk8lady on October 03, 2012, 03:59:49 PM

I once saw Preliminary moves double-paneled with a weak skater and a strong skater--the strong skater lapped the weak skater.

She didn't lap her (get an entire lap ahead), but a friend caught up to a skater who started on the opposite side during intermediate moves (so she made up the half lap difference).  She said it was really awkward, 1) because that skater was in the way and 2) she knew it made the other skater look bad.

Quote from: Skittl1321 on October 03, 2012, 02:47:01 PM
I think it makes sense for a lefty to not like the right outside mohawk.  It is a CCW turn, you likely favor CW turns.

A RO mohawk is a CW turn.  Should be easier for CW skater.

Quote from: icedancer2 on October 03, 2012, 04:48:48 PM
A RO mohawk is a CW turn.  Should be easier for CW skater.

No it isn't.  If you are on your right outside going forward, and then step to your left outside going backwards, you turned CCW. In the 8-step, the direction of travel for the RO is clockwise, but the turn is counter rotational, so it is CCW.    (In other words, it turns towards the direction of the left shoulder, lefty skaters turn* towards their right shoulder)


*I should say spin/jump, I know in theory we should all turn equally, but that theory is hilarious!

Quote from: Skittl1321 on October 03, 2012, 04:57:45 PM
No it isn't.  If you are on your right outside going forward, and then step to your left outside going backwards, you turned CCW. In the 8-step, the direction of travel for the RO is clockwise, but the turn is counter rotational, so it is CCW.    (In other words, it turns towards the direction of the left shoulder, lefty skaters turn* towards their right shoulder)


*I should say spin/jump, I know in theory we should all turn equally, but that theory is hilarious!

You are right.  I hadn't thought it through!  Thank you!

NOW it makes sense why I find the CW portion of the 8-step easier than the CCW !!  And of course there are the five dances with that LFO mohawk and I was pretty used to doing that but the CW is easier.

NOW it makes sense!!

I hate the CW portion of 8 step mohawk whole-heartedly, regardless the theory :P 
Maybe not because of the mohawk though...

PS: the poll is interesting. Strong side : weak side is currently 7:2 ;)

Actually, "depends" is in the lead.  Most coaches and skaters try to focus on the pattern, not which side to start with.  The more you worry and think about weaknesses, the more they become stumbling blocks.

Quote from: Skittl1321 on October 03, 2012, 04:45:32 PM
But they aren't difficult on the other side! So it isn't the FO that is diifcult, just the rotation.   A LFO mohawk is much easier (for me) than an RFI one.

You misunderstand - the natural curve of any forward outside edge is towards the middle of the curve.  The waltz jump follows that rotation.

To do a correct FO Mohawk, you have to check the shoulders strongly to the OUTSIDE of the curve to step against the natural rotation.  Most people who think they're doing these with ease after a few lessons are typically rolling to a different edge on one (or both) edges during the turn; in effect cheating the turn.  It takes a lot of check, lean and ankle strength to master this turn.

Practicing these off-ice is always helpful.  It helps get the scissoring feeling in the upper thighs and the should checks without head bangers.


As for your personal experience, you've told us repeatedly that you don't follow the norms of skating thanks to ballet and injuries.  I don't think it's fair to contradict my statements using your struggles as examples. 

My coach recommends starting with a strong side. But for instance, in the Preliminary Crossover eight, if I start out counterclockwise (My favorite side) I struggle with the swing roll in the middle. However, if I start clockwise, I can perform the swing roll just fine.  ;D All depends on the pattern for me.

On the topic of the 8-step mohawk sequence... I *know* that my LFO Mo is way easier for me, and whenever I do the right side, I would be much more cautious.

HOWEVER, when I tested the Silver MIF the judges liked my RFO Mo better - in the comments, it was noted that the LFO Mo was "too steppy".  Argh, that comes form the Fourteen Step, of course!  88)

Quote from: FigureSpins on October 03, 2012, 07:26:38 PM
As for your personal experience, you've told us repeatedly that you don't follow the norms of skating thanks to ballet and injuries.  I don't think it's fair to contradict my statements using your struggles as examples.

My figure skating struggles are really only related to me being right side dominant, but a CW turner.  This greatly affected my loop jump, and it does make it difficult for me to turn on my non-favored side.

However, my experience with 8-step seems to be VERY typical.  The three other people in my group lesson (2 teens, one 70+) have the exact same problem as me.  They have a strong mohawk on one side (one does flip her edge, like you mentioned) and can barely make the turn on the other side.  However, their inside mohawks have the same issue as me- they'd rather do a "good" outside than a bad inside.  None of us can do our bad inside mohawks well "at speed", though the younger girls have an easier time at attempting it.  The older woman is pretty much the exact same case as I am with sidedness issues.

Quote from: Skittl1321 on October 03, 2012, 04:57:45 PM
No it isn't.  If you are on your right outside going forward, and then step to your left outside going backwards, you turned CCW. In the 8-step, the direction of travel for the RO is clockwise, but the turn is counter rotational, so it is CCW.    (In other words, it turns towards the direction of the left shoulder, lefty skaters turn* towards their right shoulder)


*I should say spin/jump, I know in theory we should all turn equally, but that theory is hilarious!

Now that I am totally and completely, without a shadow of doubt confused about whether this move is CCW or CW, I can only say, my RFO mohawks are weak, very, very, weak. 

Now I need to lay down.

It seems to me that mohawk preference wouldn't necessarily be strongly related to rotational preference. That perhaps it would have more to do with which leg is stronger or which hip is more open or which side you have better balance on, or even which side you've practiced more, etc. Those preferences may end up meaning that your stronger mohawk is in the same direction as your rotational preference, or not. And whether that means your blades go in that direction or your upper body, I don't know! And that's why I don't think rotational direction is the biggest factor.

I would think an outside mohawk also has a lot more to do with how well you can hold the checked position than to rotational preference. When performing an outside mohawk I find the hardest part is keeping the body facing outside the circle throughout the turn. It doesn't really feel like it's rotating at all.

Quote from: fsk8r on October 04, 2012, 11:51:10 AM
I would think an outside mohawk also has a lot more to do with how well you can hold the checked position than to rotational preference. When performing an outside mohawk I find the hardest part is keeping the body facing outside the circle throughout the turn. It doesn't really feel like it's rotating at all.

Well, that is true that the check is opposite the rotation - which is really very slight and only in the feet and lower body. 

But I would have to agree with Skitt and her training buddies that I would much rather do either FO mohawk than my "bad" side FI mohawk at speed.  For me it has to do with my inability (or unwillingness LOL) to rotate my upper body, have my arms and shoulders in the right place for the LFI mohawk.  It is definitely something to work on!  Also need to work on not leaning out of the circle on that turn.

Nice discussion.

As far as on a test I chose to do my "bad" side on the Power 3s for the Bronze MITF first.  My strategy was to get it out of the way (for me) plus I thought it would be better to end with the "good" side hoping that the judges would forget about the "bad" side and then just be so pleased with the good side that I would pass the move.  It almost backfired on me because I think the judges were so busy making comments on my "bad" side that they most likely didn't reallysee the good side LOL - I didn't pass that move by ANY judge but pulled up with two judges on my BO edge move (the one that is a back cross-over to BO edge).

That is why I checked "it depends" on my vote.

Best not to try to outwit the judging panel!! :laugh: :laugh:

Statistically, would first impression count more or last impression? :)

Quote from: jjane45 on October 04, 2012, 01:40:26 PM
Statistically, would first impression count more or last impression? :)

This is why my coach always said to do what was the "normal" way about it.  Because there are pros and cons both ways.  It seems like a weak last impression would be left in their minds, but a weak first impression, they dismiss your ability to do well.  If you do the good side first, they might be writing their comments while you do the bad side, and not see tiny problems.

I can't remember if I posted this earlier in the thread, but my first coach had a judge claim the skater did the same side twice (I think on the forward outside-back inside/ forward inside-back outside 3s), because she did the less common side first.  There was a parent videoing the test, who tried to show the judge that she did both sets, but the skater had to reskate the test, because once the judge "saw" she was repeating the same side, she had stopped watching.  The skater was flustered, and did not pass on the second go round.

I normally just follow the pattern as written - as a CW skater this frequently ends up weak side first, but not always.  I made an exception for the novice back inside twizzle pattern.  It was my weakest pattern by far, and coming around the corner from the outside twizzles to start the insides ccw flustered me so badly my coach told me to start on my strong side instead.

I did pass the test (more in spite of the twizzles than because of them, haha).

It my opinion. it's the first impression that counts. Just like icedancer2, I started with my bad side of the three-turn bronze pattern, not because I was less confident about it, just because my coach had told me so. Sure enough, the judge picked on every weakness on that side of the pattern completely ignoring my good side, which was much better.

And other thing: as you go up the scale of tests you really do have to do it equally on both sides.  You can't have one "good side" and the other "bad side" that is obvious to the judges.  One really good side does not cancel out one really bad side.  If the sides are that different then the move doesn't pass no matter how great the "good" side is.

I'm just sayin'...

Quote from: Skittl1321 on October 04, 2012, 02:06:21 PM
This is why my coach always said to do what was the "normal" way about it.  Because there are pros and cons both ways.  It seems like a weak last impression would be left in their minds, but a weak first impression, they dismiss your ability to do well.  If you do the good side first, they might be writing their comments while you do the bad side, and not see tiny problems.

LOL. I've always wondered how do judges find time to write down all the comments. Was not paying too much attention in my limited exposure to test sessions. Are they accustomed to writing on test papers without taking their eyes off the skater? :D

It is only usually skaters that are beginners that have a weak side and a strong side until their muscles are worked in for skating.

Quote from: SkateToronto on October 08, 2012, 02:05:24 PM
It is only usually skaters that are beginners that have a weak side and a strong side until their muscles are worked in for skating.

http://www.skatetoronto.com (http://www.skatetoronto.com)

Welcome to the forum!


I agree with your statement for kids, most eventually become fairly even.  For adults, I've seen adults with intermediate level tests still struggle with a bad side.  And for lower level adults who started skating late in life, the bad side sometimes never goes away.

Weak and strong are relative terms, of course.  I'll bet even elite skaters have to practice some moves more in one direction than the other.  They are just skating at a much higher standard than most!

We just see the final, polished product (and hopefully, the judges see our final products during a test session!)

I'm sure even elite skaters have their weak and strong sides BUT whether this is discernible visually is another story.  Definitely as skaters go up the ladder on their moves tests having an obvious weak side will definitely cause a move to not pass.  They have to appear equal in the eyes of the judges.