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7/7/2012 rulebook describes the required jump sequence as follows:

QuoteOne jump sequence consisting of one-half or single revolution jumps

From About.com

Quotedefinition: Jump sequences are similar to figure skating jump combinations, but jump sequences include additional steps, turns, or hops that can be included between the jumps.

Examples: An example of a jump sequence is an Axel, tap toe, Axel. Another example is a split jump, flip, loop, mazurka, waltz jump. The tap toe jump or mazurka jump and the split jump are not considered jumps in a sequence (they are considered hops or connecting moves instead), but keep the series of jumps in the sequence moving.

What are common jump sequences on silver freeskate test? :)  Would waltz - tap toe - waltz be legitimate? Half loop - salchow?

(ETA: coach has not had anyone at silver for a while, we are primarily ISI)

I've seen the following:

Waltz-half loop-sal
Sal-half loop-sal
Flip-stag-toe (this one was iffy because of the extra turn before the toe)
Loop-half loop-flip

There are many iterations of what it could be. You have to find what works for you, as some people can't do a falling leaf, but can do a half loop, and vice versa.

Yes, a waltz-tap toe-waltz probably would be legitimate. But you would need to work with your coach to see what judges in your area would be expecting. A half loop-sal may not be enough for some judges, who would expect a three jump sequence (even though the rulebook, I don't believe, requires three jumps).

What about salchow-falling leaf- toe loop?  That's a fun one.

Do silver level skaters still use waltz jumps very often?  I know they aren't expected to have axels, but I'd assume they also have enough single jumps to not utilize half jumps the way bronze and lower does.

Huge waltz jump is a beauty to watch though (not me!), especially compared to a half hearted half loop that loses lots of speed (me!)

of course I have no idea what judges expect. I'd strongly prefer a waltz waltz sequence if the rulebook does not rule it out.

Quote from: TreSk8sAZ on August 23, 2012, 12:32:03 PMWaltz-half loop-sal
Sal-half loop-sal
Flip-stag-toe (this one was iffy because of the extra turn before the toe)
Loop-half loop-flip

Does the half loop count as a listed jump or not for your testing? ???

May be worth double checking as a half loop in a jump sequence or combination under IJS counts as a listed jump thus making Sal-half loop-sal and Loop-half loop-flip jump combinations not jump sequences.

taka, that's what I was wondering too... Will anything involving 1/2 loop be called as combo or sequence at this level? It's a combo now in elite levels, but silver is judged under 6.0.

I found this 2006 thread (http://skating.zachariahs.com/skatingforums-onice/www.skatingforums.com/archive/index.php/t-21671.html) from the archive to be helpful, just not sure if everything is still up to date...

QuoteISU definition (at least back then): "A jump sequence may consist of any number of jumps of any number of revolutions linked by hops, mazurkas and non-listed jumps immediately following each other, while maintaining the jump rhythm (knee). There can be not more than one (1) revolution on the ice between any hop, mazurka, non-listed jump or jump. There can be no crossovers or stroking during the sequence. A jump sequence, consisting of only one listed jump together with other non-listed jumps is not considered a jump-sequence but will count as a single jump

- Guess my question above concerning "half-loop - salchow" will count as salchow with a special entrance then.

- Does "waltz - tap toe - waltz" qualify? (rulebook says half or single, my guess is yes, even though it's less commonly seen)

- Would "lutz - side tap toe - LFO3-turn -flip" qualify? Three turn is not listed in the definition above.

...

If 1/2 loop is still legitimate, I think I'll also consider toe loop - 1/2 loop - salchow... to work on all of my worst jumps in a sequence!  ::>)

Quote from: taka on August 23, 2012, 03:07:50 PM
Does the half loop count as a listed jump or not for your testing? ???

May be worth double checking as a half loop in a jump sequence or combination under IJS counts as a listed jump thus making Sal-half loop-sal and Loop-half loop-flip jump combinations not jump sequences.

For testing, I don't believe it does. For example, Junior Free requires a non-listed jump and double. It specifically lists a half loop as a non-listed jump. In most test listings (such as Gold) half loop is routinely listed with things like a stag jump, falling leaf, or split jump. Testing requirements here are often different than competition requirements, and don't appear to always follow ISU rules. I could be wrong, though.

YMMV.  I friend of mine did Lutz-half loop-Salchow and there was much debate over whether that satisfied the requirements by the panel

Quote from: techskater on August 23, 2012, 08:19:03 PM
YMMV.  I friend of mine did Lutz-half loop-Salchow and there was much debate over whether that satisfied the requirements by the panel

Can we somehow obtain clarification from USFS for this half loop issue? Email? Twitter?

The USFS tests page (http://www.usfsa.org/Story.asp?type=leadership&id=34385) supposedly has contact information for tests committee but I cannot find it.

Quote from: jjane45 on August 23, 2012, 08:28:45 PM
Can we somehow obtain  clarification from USFS for this half loop issue? Email? Twitter?

I would talk to your coach or coaches in the area. They would know the local judges and their preferences, and would likely know if it is used and/or passed locally or not.

Exactly.   :P

Quote from: TreSk8sAZ on August 23, 2012, 08:43:57 PM
I would talk to your coach or coaches in the area. They would know the local judges and their preferences, and would likely know if it is used and/or passed locally or not.

Sorry I beg to differ :D  This is not a judgement call like "recognizable sit position", it's a response to a recent rule change and should have a clear cut yes or no answer for all testers out there.

Why include the half loop in jump sequence and leave the skater at the panel's mercy? What about clubs who get different judges all the time?

See if you can get a consensus from a couple judges who have seen several Silver FS tests...

Thank you techskater and TreSk8sAZ :)  We'll see what can be done talking to the judges and other coaches.

Sorry in advance if I am asking really really ignorant questions. On a technical level, which parties have "jurisdiction" over calling something a jump combination or jump sequence on USFS testing sessions? Judges only? Test chair? Anyone else?

The judges make the call. The test chair has no input on the skating.

Quote from: techskater on August 23, 2012, 09:11:20 PM
See if you can get a consensus from a couple judges who have seen several Silver FS tests...

I'm not certain there have even been several Silver tests nearby...
I can only think of one Silver skater in the area, but more the broad area, not the immediate.
I just wish the rules were just clear, skating seems to involve a lot of guessing about what is expected.

Thank you blue111moon :)  I'm still trying to understand how it works.

Since judges see jump sequence all the time on USFS free skate tests, I assume there is a consensus already. Just curious if it's a nationwide consensus.

In a hypothetical scenario, skater and team hears conflicting interpretations from local judges but really does not have a jump sequence without the half loop, can they email the test chair in advance and ask for confirmation from the assigned judges? For peace of mind? :)

Half loop aside, I've seen jump - tap toe - LFO 3 turn - salchow or flip jump. Is the 3 turn legitimate? :)

Yes, you can do a 3-turn in a sequence. For example, waltz jump-salchow, you have to 3-turn from the landing.

Eta. Based on the next post, I guess I am wrong. I was always told that was what differentiated a combo from a sequence, the need to turn, rather than go directly into the next jump.

Oh no, I did not realize I was reading the "tests book", not the "rulebook" :P

4101.C

QuoteA jump sequence may consist of any number of jumps of any number of revolutions that may be linked by non-listed jumps and/or hops immediately following each other while maintaining the jump rhythm (knee). There can be no turns, steps, crossovers or stroking during the sequence. Turns are three-turns, twizzles, brackets, loops, counters and rockers. Steps are toe steps, chassés, mohawks, choctaws, curves with change of edge and cross-rolls.

4580 Adult Silver
ADULT SILVER WELL-BALANCED FREE SKATE

QuoteAdditional jump sequences which contain jumps of not more than one revolution (i.e. mazurkas, half-loops, etc.) performed as part of connecting footwork preceding single jumps are permitted

Hopefully this applies to testing too?


4101.B.2

QuoteA half-loop when used in combinations/sequences is considered as a listed jump with the value of a single loop for juvenile and above when judged using IJS. For all events judged under the 6.0 system and when pre-juvenile events and below are judged using IJS, the half-loop will continue to be considered as a half revolution jump and will not count against the maximum number of jump elements allowed in the well-balanced program for these levels.

"half revolution jump" should satisfy the requirement of "unlisted jump" right?

so if you can't turn  does that mean that waltzjump falling leaf toe loop can't be done? it requires a three turn.
Baffling since it is part of basic skills freestyle, but why learn it if you can't use it?

Quote from: Skittl1321 on August 24, 2012, 01:54:54 PM
so if you can't turn  does that mean that waltzjump falling leaf toe loop can't be done? it requires a three turn.
Baffling since it is part of basic skills freestyle, but why learn it if you can't use it?

I don't know. Not even sure if I cited from the right source?

Quote from: Skittl1321 on August 24, 2012, 01:54:54 PM
so if you can't turn  does that mean that waltzjump falling leaf toe loop can't be done? it requires a three turn.
Baffling since it is part of basic skills freestyle, but why learn it if you can't use it?

That's correct. If you add in a three turn before any jump, it is no longer a sequence. We had that problem choreographing my competition freeskate. We were going to put in a split falling leaf - flip, and that would not count as a sequence (because it comes before the jump). But if I had done a Flip - split falling leaf - flip, it wouldn't have counted as a sequence either because there was a turn, and I would have had too many flips outside of a combo.

So. What the heck is a sequence then? How is it different from a combo?

Between jumps we can hop or have an unlisted jump, but no turns, steps, crossovers or stroking... At least that's how I understand it now.

I could be wrong because this definition seems to change all of the time - but a jump combo is where you do a jump directly from the landing of the first and subsequent jumps - as in loop-loop - no change of edge or turn in between - toeloop - loop, lutz-loop, etc.

I think jjane's original question is a good one - whether a waltz jump - tap - waltz jump can be considered a sequence and my answer as a judge is that it would probably meet the requirement BUT at the Silver FS level I might expect something more creative.  That being said, a really great, big huge flowing waltz jump - tap- (or maybe a big old mazurka!) followed by another really great waltz jump would be good to see I think!!!

I have a related question.  The Pre-Bronze and Bronze well-balanced program requirements now limit you to 4 jump passes.  Two of the jump passes may consist of a combo or a sequence, one of which may have 2 jumps and one of which may have 3 jumps.

I was told my program (Pre-Bronze) is ok because I have the following: 
1. loop - waltz:  is this considered a 2-jump sequence?
2. salchow - toe loop (my 2-jump combo)
3.  1/2 flip - toe loop:  would this count as my 3rd and 4th jump passes because of the 3-turn in between so it isn't a combo or a sequence?

I am not really sure about #3.  Very confusing.  We have some artistic competitions that will limit you to 3 jumps, but people I skate against will interpret that as 3 jump passes and have lots of jumps in those 3 passes, whereas my coach will limit me to 3 jumps total, including 1/2 flip or 1/2 lutz. 

I am worried that a judge would say that I have three 2-jump sequences/combos and disqualify me or not count something. 

Quote from: Live2Sk8 on August 24, 2012, 07:34:26 PM
1. loop - waltz:  is this considered a 2-jump sequence?
2. salchow - toe loop (my 2-jump combo)
3.  1/2 flip - toe loop:  would this count as my 3rd and 4th jump passes because of the 3-turn in between so it isn't a combo or a sequence?

Not enough experience to tell, but based on discussions in this thread so far I'd say #1 is not a sequence because there is no unlisted jump / hop connecting the two jumps (toe and waltz). What about a tap-toe in between?

#3 probably does not qualify as combo / sequence either because of the turn?

Quote from: icedancer2 on August 24, 2012, 07:19:40 PM
I think jjane's original question is a good one - whether a waltz jump - tap - waltz jump can be considered a sequence and my answer as a judge is that it would probably meet the requirement BUT at the Silver FS level I might expect something more creative.  That being said, a really great, big huge flowing waltz jump - tap- (or maybe a big old mazurka!) followed by another really great waltz jump would be good to see I think!!!

Thank you! Technically I don't see any reason to disqualify it either. The rule says half or single. Now what do judges EXPECT...

I really want to get beautiful waltz jumps and having the sequence in the test program will greatly motivate me to work on it. Always disliked the look of half loop sequence even for elite competitions, looks too much like a jump mistake, ha!

I don't know, I skate with a talented Senior lady who is putting 3F+1/2Lo+3S in her program and it is LOVELY along with a 3Lz+3T.

I saw a Senior man last year do 3L+1/2Lo(step down)+3Lo as a sequence

Quote from: icedancer2 on August 24, 2012, 07:19:40 PM
That being said, a really great, big huge flowing waltz jump - tap- (or maybe a big old mazurka!) followed by another really great waltz jump would be good to see I think!!!

I can't believe I actually did a waltz - mazurka - waltz in group lesson before. Gotta love the practice threads...

Quote from: jjane45 on March 08, 2012, 12:15:57 AM
AOSS: lurve the group lesson coach. Her theme was "creativity" tonight, we played with jump sequences (waltz-mazurka-waltz, half toe walley, half walley-salchow) and spin variations... Fun and scary!!

This is a nice alternative to consider... I want to get a good mazurka (and hopefully improving the toe loop technique). It's not required for ISI, and for some reason always felt very scary. Way scarier than bunny hop!

Received email confirmation from USFS. They checked with the singles committee and confirmed half loop is legitimate, so is waltz tap toe waltz.

Here's an absolutely safe sequence that adheres to the ISU and USFSA rulebook definition and could be kept for a competition program once you've passed the test:  Start with any listed jump (toeloop, salchow, loop, flip, lutz or axel), followed by a side toe tap or mazurka, then a waltz jump + loop OR waltz jump + toe loop.  You're starting and ending with a listed jump and you aren't including any turns or half loops, so there's no chance for confusion or doubt.  Plus, it's a very easy sequence to do! :)  For my Silver test, I think I did lutz+side toe tap+waltz-loop, but a salchow+side toe tap+waltz-loop would have been just as good.

Quote from: Doubletoe on August 27, 2012, 02:18:00 PM
Here's an absolutely safe sequence that adheres to the ISU and USFSA rulebook definition and could be kept for a competition program once you've passed the test:  Start with any listed jump (toeloop, salchow, loop, flip, lutz or axel), followed by a side toe tap or mazurka, then a waltz jump + loop OR waltz jump + toe loop.  You're starting and ending with a listed jump and you aren't including any turns or half loops, so there's no chance for confusion or doubt.  Plus, it's a very easy sequence to do! :)  For my Silver test, I think I did lutz+side toe tap+waltz-loop, but a salchow+side toe tap+waltz-loop would have been just as good.

Oh oh oh thank you so much! This already sounds much better than any half loop sequence!
Bye bye half loop   :laugh: :love:

I like these suggestions - thanks Doubletoe!!

Glad I could help! :)  Another good thing about jump+side-tap+waltz-loop is that it's a great exercise to prepare Silver skaters for the axel!

I really like the flip - tap toe - waltz - toe loop. It will be the sequence to practice and over over so I don't get confused over "what's next".

So many jumping passes in this test! 3 solo jumps, 1 combination and 1 sequence. And 2 spins. Don't know how will it work out for choreography.

There are 5 allowed in a competitive Silver program, so they align

Bringing this back up because I am getting ready to test Silver FS. I passed Pre-Juv already and although you would think they would be similar, there are enough differences that are driving my coach and me nuts! She has previously had adults at Bronze and Gold but no one at Silver.

I took Silver FS in November and didn't pass because I didn't quite meet the spin requirements (long story but worst test experience EVER! I had to wait around in my skates for two hours before testing). For my sequence, I did sal/falling leaf/toe loop because this is a strong combo for me. In that program, I did it before my combo jump (flip/loop) and there was confusion about if I intended the sal/falling leaf/toe to be the combo or the flip/loop.

This time around, we are not messing around and the combo jump is first (flip/loop), single jumps in the middle (flip, loop and lutz) and the sequence last (waltz/half loop/sal). We took the turn out of the sequence although I sometimes struggle with the half loop. We are also putting in three spins - camel, camel/sit and camel layback. Plain camel is my weakness, I am much stronger at plain sit or plain layback. When I competed silver I did lutz/loop/toe as a 3 jump combo and no sequence. I am just so frustrated with this test and want to pass - and I know I am a strong enough skater to do it, it is just a matter of doing it in the test!

Quote from: CaraSkates on February 07, 2013, 01:14:58 PM

This time around, we are not messing around and the combo jump is first (flip/loop), single jumps in the middle (flip, loop and lutz) and the sequence last (waltz/half loop/sal). We took the turn out of the sequence although I sometimes struggle with the half loop. We are also putting in three spins - camel, camel/sit and camel layback. Plain camel is my weakness, I am much stronger at plain sit or plain layback. When I competed silver I did lutz/loop/toe as a 3 jump combo and no sequence. I am just so frustrated with this test and want to pass - and I know I am a strong enough skater to do it, it is just a matter of doing it in the test!

Since a waltz/half loop/salchow does not meet the current requirements for a sequence, you might consider replacing it with a salchow/side toe tap/waltz/toeloop.  It's easier and it will count for the test requirement. :)

Quote from: jjane45 on August 27, 2012, 12:53:01 PM
Received email confirmation from USFS. They checked with the singles committee and confirmed half loop is legitimate, so is waltz tap toe waltz.

Half loop is still OK per official confirmation. YMMV... I'd say don't risk it.

Quote from: jjane45 on February 07, 2013, 01:44:23 PM
Half loop is still OK per official confirmation. YMMV... I'd say don't risk it.

Hmm...I will have to try some different things at the rink tomorrow and see. All three judges did give me credit for sal/falling leaf/toe at the last test, I failed only because of the spins. I will try sal/toe tap/waltz/toe and other variations and see what feels comfortable. I will likely go back to the 3 jump combo for competition so I just have to figure out what will get me through the next two weeks.

I am also hoping for a better testing experience then my last one! It was so awful, all the skaters from my rink swore off ever testing there again. I was supposed to test at 9:15am and didn't get on the ice till after 11am.

When I took my Bronze Free a few years back, I included a half loop in case my loop failed. The loop failed but I passed the test--all the judges counted the half loop as a full revolution jump. When in doubt, check the list of jumps at the end of the rulebook--anything with a "1" is a full revolution jump; anything with a "1/2" is not--how else would I know that a split flip is a full revolution jump but a split jump is not? (Not like I've ever seen a split flip.)

Here's a split flip! http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=8_aHukFIfJ4#t=129s

I originally saw one in an old ISU training video but I couldn't find it again. This was the only example I could find. It's like a combination of a split jump and flip jump and is a full rotation. It's a little OT, I know, but I think it's a cool looking jump that you don't see very often, so I wanted to share the video example. Not that you'd be likely to work this into your program if your flip didn't work out!

Very cool split flip! I can not do a split jump so I won't be subbing that in, lol!

Hmm, not planning on trying this for Silver FS, but I did do a falling leaf/mazurka/flip in an artistic program. No idea what that would count as but fun to do!

Quote from: alejeather on February 07, 2013, 09:26:30 PM
Here's a split flip! http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=8_aHukFIfJ4#t=129s

I originally saw one in an old ISU training video but I couldn't find it again. This was the only example I could find. It's like a combination of a split jump and flip jump and is a full rotation. It's a little OT, I know, but I think it's a cool looking jump that you don't see very often, so I wanted to share the video example. Not that you'd be likely to work this into your program if your flip didn't work out!

Thought I'd share: Split lutz at 1:13
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sAdIn-NFKhc

Quote from: CaraSkates on February 07, 2013, 09:54:43 PM
Very cool split flip! I can not do a split jump so I won't be subbing that in, lol!

Hmm, not planning on trying this for Silver FS, but I did do a falling leaf/mazurka/flip in an artistic program. No idea what that would count as but fun to do!

That would count as a single flip from connecting moves.  The only "jump" would be the flip, but you'd get credit for transitions and a higher score for the flip if done well from a difficult setup.

Thanks for the feedback. That is what I was thinking. It is only used in my artistic program - it fits well with the music and is more interesting then plain flip! My only other jumps in that are plain loop and sal/falling leaf/toe. One of my friends does an awesome walley/2lutz/2loop combo in both her short and long - I know it only counts as 2lutz/2loop but it does improve her score!

My silver test is next week - I have decided to stick with the waltz/half loop/sal as the rulebook considers half loop a non listed jump for 6.0 events.

Quote from: CaraSkates on February 14, 2013, 09:11:23 PM
My silver test is next week - I have decided to stick with the waltz/half loop/sal as the rulebook considers half loop a non listed jump for 6.0 events.

Yeah!!! Best of luck :)

Good luck Cara!

Thanks! Test was this morning - passed by all three judges. No comments were made about the sequence. I did waltz/half loop/sal. Interestingly enough, there was another skater taking Silver FS this morning - she skated right after me and we did the exact same jumps and spins. I didn't get to talk to her after but I believe she also passed.

Congrats!

Congratulations!!!!  ;D

Congratulations on the passing