"Just out of curiosity" questions again for testing days! Really hope to hear behind the scenes stories esp. from test chairs :)
How are the tests scheduled for the day in general? I vaguely remember hearing higher level skaters test earlier in the day, but if there is a contingency (e.g. taking 2 beginner MITF tests), would it still work in that order?
Some lower level tests only require a single judge, if three judges were brought in for the higher level tests, would all three be kept for the lower level tests as well?
Would the tests be divided by discipline? Say finish all MITF tests then move to FS, then dance, pairs etc.?
For smaller testing days, it's inevitable to group skaters of different abilities into the same warm up group. What is the biggest level difference you've observed? (pre-pre warming up with senior anyone?)
From the test schedule I received, it starts with higher level moves, then higher level freeskate - not sure if pre-bronze and bronze FS belong to intermediate FS but well :) , then dance, then juvenile FS, then the beginner moves / FS. And at the end of 6-hour test day, SENIOR MOVES! Makes me feel like judge availability was an issue. Being a test chair must be a lot of hard work... Luckily there are only 2 contingencies: my bronze FS and a pre-pre FS.
My warm up for pre bronze is with three pre-juv skaters, for bronze with five intermediate skaters (ouch) and a pre bronze skater. I am not sure what to expect sharing ice with kids taking intermediate FS. High doubles?
You might want to read this.
http://www.usfsa.org/content/Guide%20for%20Test%20Chair.pdf
Most sessions do MITF first and then freeskate. But not all. I was at one that started with high freeskate , then did low moves, then middle freeskate, then high moves, then low freeskate. It hopped around due to contingencies and also when scrapes were available. You don't want to put moves tests after a bunch of freeskates without a scrape, because of the divots.
I think dance has to have their own warm up, because the pattern music gets played during the warm up.
As for judges, that depends too: My pre-bronze freeskate test was judged by 3 judges, even though only 1 is needed. They figured they were there, might as well write some comments down. But I've also seen tests where the extra judges sit in the box and play on their phones until the next test they are judging.
Intermediate skaters will probably being doing low doubles. The test requires either a double sal or a double toe. They have to do a combo with a double jump in it. (Even the senior test doesn't actually REQUIRE anything higher than a double lutz, though triples are an option.)
Oh very cool, thanks skittl
QuoteScheduling Tips:
- Run figures before all other tests. This causes the least ice damage.
- Place high level tests on the cleanest ice. Pairs and dance also require clean ice.
- Place free skating tests, which damage the ice most, at the end of any group of tests and just before a resurface.
- Run moves in the field tests before free skating, especially if free skating is contingent on passing the moves.
- Be aware that the same partner may take multiple skaters through tests. Whenever possible try to separate these tests with a skater who has a different partner.
- Include time for panel changes or for panels returning to the rink following an ice cut.
QuoteIf time is at a premium and you have a sufficient number of judges, you may want to run two tests of the same level simultaneously for the lower level moves in the field tests, pre-preliminary and adult pre-bronze free skating tests, pre-silver and below dance tests and all figure tests. If you are severely short on time, juvenile through novice moves in the field tests may also be double paneled. It is the norm to single panel judge the pre-preliminary and preliminary tests (moves & free) and preliminary through pre-bronze dances.
I definitely benefited from being put into the intermediate FS group. First skater after resurface!
The test chair guide has some outdated contents though, maximum bronze FS program duration is 1:50 in the rulebook but listed here as 1:40 (yes I freaked out...)
Quote from: jjane45 on August 13, 2012, 04:46:02 PM
I definitely benefited from being put into the intermediate FS group. First skater after resurface!
That's nice. A lot of times you would have been the last, since you are the lowest test.
Maybe they figure you won't damage the ice much.
Dance is first on our schedule this time, the last time it was mid-morning.
I'm the last dancer in the flight. So I'll go at maybe 730? 740?
Quote from: Skittl1321 on August 13, 2012, 04:41:33 PM
Intermediate skaters will probably being doing low doubles. The test requires either a double sal or a double toe. They have to do a combo with a double jump in it. (Even the senior test doesn't actually REQUIRE anything higher than a double lutz, though triples are an option.)
I was thinking their skating abilities (contents of their competitive program), as how intimidating it will be to warm up together. Especially the group is fairly large with 7 skaters. THANK YOU for your great help as always :)
Quote from: Skittl1321 on August 13, 2012, 04:50:59 PM
That's nice. A lot of times you would have been the last, since you are the lowest test.
Maybe they figure you won't damage the ice much.
Thanks! I definitely care for the ice lol lol lol!! The lowest level skater in the flight is pre-bronze and skates right after me.
When I took my Pre-Bronze MITF I warmed up with a person taking Senior MITF. Intimidating but I had to get judged early on in the session as I had to judge (or maybe I was just trial judging at that point...) on the later tests so they put me out there with the Senior lady...
I like this test chair document because of the explanations about who needs the best ice - it is true that especially higher level moves and FS will benefit from really clean ice - this explains why we will see higher level freestyle and dance right after the ice cut.
Some of the schedule has as much to do with judge availability as anything else as Gold judges can judge any test BUT if they are only available early morning (like before they go to work) and there are Junior or Sr. tests then that is when those tests will be scheduled.
Former test chair....also my DD tested (and passed!)her Juvenile FS today
Dance and Moves are supposed to get cleaner ice. Higher tests are supposed to get cleaner ice. Sometimes a test chair has to work around a schedule...either a skater or a judge. For example today, there a senior and 2 junior moves tests (all same warm up). They were followed by a Preliminary Moves and Preliminary Free Skate, and then 2 Intermediate Moves tests. The 2 Preliminary tests were sisters. One had soccer try-outs so they needed to test early.
Sometimes I would put pre-pre and preliminary moves/FS first, because they only require one judge. If one of my judges was coming from work or a long distance away, I would usually do the one judge tests first. That way I could keep my schedule moving. I have had judges get lost or stuck in traffic before.
Usually free skates get put before an ice cut/scrape/resurface, but not always. Today, there were a Jr FS, IM FS, and 2 Juv FS right after the intermediate tests. This was to accomodate a coach who had SRM, JRM, IM, and IF tests. That way she could leave and not wait until all the rest of the moves and fs tests were done. The Preliminary FS tests were done at the end of the test session.
Thank you everyone for sharing! How likely is the schedule going to change significantly after it's announced? As in, without further notice, is it ok to arrive 30 minutes prior to warm up time and be fine, or should the skater call to confirm?
I'd plan on an hour ahead. If the test runs ahead of schedule, 30 minutes isn't going to give you much time to get yourself settled.
Quote from: Clarice on August 13, 2012, 08:43:01 PM
I'd plan on an hour ahead. If the test runs ahead of schedule, 30 minutes isn't going to give you much time to get yourself settled.
I totally agree!
I think I actually got to my most recent test 2 hours ahead, because if it was running ahead, I needed to be there an hour early, and it was an hours drive- so if there was traffic, I needed time for that too. (Last year I competed at that rink there was an accident on the interstate and I got to the rink like 10 minutes before my event started- I was so stressed out the entire drive. I had put my skates on in the car, because my husband was driving. My luck was with me though, as in that case, the competition was running behind...)
Early, if you can, is so much better than even "on time" is.
If I do attend the home rink skating clinic partially, I shall be 20 minutes local driving away from the testing rink... Plus fairly warmed up. I'll plan for 45 minutes prior :) thank you for the tips!
I'm in the UK and at my rink we always have Field Moves first, then elements, then free. The one time I've seen dance tests held here, they were at the end, not sure if there was a resurface as i wasn't there. At my other rink they had a specific dance test session.
It starts with the lowest level, although i knew one girl who was skating a high level FM test and had to go first because the judges wanted to be able to examine her tracings to ensure her edges were correct (i don't think they did this in the end, but she still skated first). They wouldn't bother doing this with low level tests.
Thank you for sharing, turnip! Examining tracings? Shades of figures test...
If a skater has two FS tests, is it ok to use part of the first warm up for the elements of the second event? I probably won't use up a whole 5 minutes to warm up for pre bronze FS, but may benefit from going over parts of the bronze program. This shouldn't bother the other skaters in my warm up, they are testing higher level FS, I don't want to confuse the judges though.
You can use the warm up as you see fit. I've seen kids do higher elements they really like that aren't on their test- confidence builders.
However, I think it would be really bad form for someone to warm up freestyle elements on a moves-specific warm up. I've never seen that. I would bet the test chair might say something to that skater- but that isn't what you are talking about doing.
Quote from: jjane45 on August 13, 2012, 08:35:53 PM
Thank you everyone for sharing! How likely is the schedule going to change significantly after it's announced? As in, without further notice, is it ok to arrive 30 minutes prior to warm up time and be fine, or should the skater call to confirm?
Honestly, I'd suggest planning to arrive an hour ahead if at all possible. Sometimes this isn't even enough. When my daughter tested her (I think) Juv moves, we arrived an hour ahead only to have the frantic test chair going "oh good, your warmup is in 5 minutes, hurry up and get your skates on" as they'd managed to get a full hour ahead of schedule. Which, I guess can happen if there are a lot of contingent tests and the lower test doesn't pass.
Thank you! the test session starts at 9 and my first test at 12. All the contingency tests are in the afternoon. Guess they won't finish three hours of testing in two hours unless lots of testers dropped out. But I'll plan for an hour prior just in case, thank you again everyone.
Skittl, thanks for the clarification. To throw in stuff from a different discipline would indeed be poor choice, like pairs lifts on moves warm up lol.
Usually what does the testing schedule say about arrival time, if anything? My test in July and the upcoming test are less formal, rink sponsored tests and I don't know if regular club testing sessions would usually have announcement for tests.
So if the test organizer did not specify arrival time and the skater arrives 30 minutes early only to find out the test already happened, will the skater be tested later that day? Or refund? Or rescheduled to a different testing day? These are hypothetical questions of course, I'm not tempted to testing them out myself lol
Do airplanes depart before the planned boarding time? Or they only get delayed?
Quote from: jjane45 on August 14, 2012, 09:48:55 AM
So if the test organizer did not specify arrival time and the skater arrives 30 minutes early only to find out the test already happened, will the skater be tested later that day? Or refund? Or rescheduled to a different testing day? These are hypothetical questions of course, I'm not tempted to testing them out myself lol.
I have seen a test session that allowed a kid to go on later that day (like 5 hours later...) because she missed her test, the session was running 45 minutes ahead, and the club had told skaters to get there 1 hour early, she wasn't there an hour early. Most test sessions do what they can to accommodate, because the club cares about their skaters. I've also seen a skater get to the rink an hour early to be told they'd be warming up in 5 minutes, and hurry up put your skates on.
On the competition side, I've seen skaters pushed onto the ice in tears, because they missed their warm up when they arrived 30 minutes early and found their event already on the ice. I've also seen skaters miss their event entirely. These were low level non-qualifying competitions. Sometimes refs want to get ahead and stay ahead, others will order 15 minute breaks to keep from getting TOO far ahead of schedule (which can throw things off more than being delayed...)
Since almost every announcement I've seen says to arrive an hour early, I have never heard of a refund for missing out.
I really don't think you can compare an ice schedule to an airport...
Quote from: Skittl1321 on August 13, 2012, 04:41:33 PM
I think dance has to have their own warm up, because the pattern music gets played during the warm up.
I never thought about music being played during the warm-up. I guess that's why the dance warm-up on my test schedule is longer than the others. So how does this work exactly, if, say, 4 skaters are testing DW? Do skaters start at opposite ends of the rink? Line up and start two measures after the previous skater? Or do people just listen to the music and practice pieces of the pattern all over the place?
You would treat a dance warmup like a social dance session. Skaters can start at opposite ends of the ice, and can also follow along behind each other, with each beginning a couple of bars or so behind the previous. If one person is partnering several testers, they'll generally allow enough music so each tester can have a pattern partnered during the warmup. My coach often has the warmup time cut short as soon as everyone has had a chance to get a pattern or two in with the music.
Quote from: Skittl1321 on August 14, 2012, 09:59:10 AM
On the competition side, I've seen skaters pushed onto the ice in tears, because they missed their warm up when they arrived 30 minutes early and found their event already on the ice.
Slightly OT story: This happened to DD once...she practiced at a rink close to home the morning of a competition. We went to the competition rink an hour early, I open her skate bag in the locker room and discover ONE skate. The other had been left under the bench at the other rink!!! >:( After a couple of expletive-deleteds (she was eleven, for gosh-sakes, old enough to pay attention, and was too busy chatting with her friends after she skated), I left her with her coach and flew back to the other rink, grabbed the skate, and flew back. Probably broke a dozen or so speeding laws. Coach was waiting for me in the parking lot, grabbed the skate, and ran back to where DD was waiting and laced it up in a huge hurry. DD got on the ice after they called "one minute remaining" and only had enough time to stroke around a lap or so before she had to get off. We got lucky because it was a large enough competition group that they split it into two warmups. She was supposed to be in the first warmup group, her coach was able to persuade the referee to let her switch to the second warmup group, but he told her that she HAD to be on the ice for the warmup or else she would not be allowed to compete. Don't know if that is an "official" rule or not though.
Her next competition was Regionals...a 7 hour drive from home that year. Before we pulled out of the driveway I made her open her skate bag and SHOW ME two skates. :)
Quote from: tazsk8s on August 14, 2012, 10:20:53 AM
...her coach was able to persuade the referee to let her switch to the second warmup group, but he told her that she HAD to be on the ice for the warmup or else she would not be allowed to compete.
Her next competition was Regionals...a 7 hour drive from home that year. Before we pulled out of the driveway I made her open her skate bag and SHOW ME two skates. :)
Too funny... If you arrived with the other skate five minutes late, would she warm up power pulls in just one skate and fulfill the requirement? :)
Quote from: jjane45 on August 14, 2012, 10:32:38 AM
Too funny... If you arrived with the other skate five minutes late, would she warm up power pulls in just one skate and fulfill the requirement? :)
Probably. One of her friends was joking afterward that she should have just gone out and done an entirely one-footed program. She was missing her landing foot skate though, so I'm not what her jump content could have even been? lol
Quote from: jjane45 on August 14, 2012, 09:38:53 AM
Thank you! the test session starts at 9 and my first test at 12. All the contingency tests are in the afternoon. Guess they won't finish three hours of testing in two hours unless lots of testers dropped out. But I'll plan for an hour prior just in case, thank you again everyone.
At least an hour is a good idea. Remember, it's not just contingencies that can make a session run early. When the schedule is planned, you have to take into account time in case there is a reskate. For example, let's say a test is scheduled to take 10 minutes. The schedule may allow 12 minutes, so the skater has time to talk to their coach and do the reskate. If everyone passes or fails without reskates in front of you, that speeds things up too.
Even though there are recommended times for the tests, skaters often finish them faster than what is allotted. This plus any time not used for reskates - yes, you could have three hours of scheduled testing run short.
In every test application and competition announcement I have really ever seen, it says to arrive an hour before you are scheduled. Even if it doesn't say it, I would assume that is understood. So no, I would not expect someone to get their money back if they missed their test.
You all are incredibly lucky, though, getting ice makes in between test groups. Our tests always go MITF, FS, Dance. We never have an ice make in between any of the tests (before the first, always, but not during). And these can be three hour sessions. But really, even with FS tests, the ice doesn't get that chopped up.
Quote from: tazsk8s on August 14, 2012, 09:29:31 AM
Honestly, I'd suggest planning to arrive an hour ahead if at all possible. Sometimes this isn't even enough. When my daughter tested her (I think) Juv moves, we arrived an hour ahead only to have the frantic test chair going "oh good, your warmup is in 5 minutes, hurry up and get your skates on" as they'd managed to get a full hour ahead of schedule. Which, I guess can happen if there are a lot of contingent tests and the lower test doesn't pass.
Yes, be at least there an hour ahead of time. I often had my tests run ahead. Usually 45 mins to an hour at the end. If the test chair has helpers to get skaters on the ice one after another and there are no reskates, the test session can easily run ahead without contingent tests. Or say the test had Juvenile Moves on the schedule, but noticed that ooops - it's a Juvenile FS. Well, that just took a good 10+ minutes off the schedule. Well, usually in the last example, it happens soon after the schedule is put out - someone checked the wrong box or test chair saw it wrong after staring at test forms for hours. :D
One session we were 45 mins ahead. It was the last group. One skater was missing for the warm up. She showed up a half hour before her warm up time. Her group was finishing up their tests. I let her have her own warm-up session and then skate after clearing it with the judges. Another test chair might not have been so nice.
How many judges for a regular test session that you see? Mine is a rink sponsored (instead of club sponsored) test session and I expected a smaller field, shocked to count a total of 10 judges listed!! (6 hours, MITF / FS / dance)
I would guess that in the course of a 6 hour test session we may see 10 judges coming in and out. There are so many reasons for that: most people don't want to judge for 6 hours straight - you would freeze to death and your brain gets foggy after a while so you definitely need breaks. People have to go to work, etc. and so may have to leave at a certain time.
Then you may be double-paneling tests - this can happen on Moves and Dance - mostly low-level but if we have a busy test session we will also double panel Intermediate and Novice Moves. Then you need at least 6 judges.
Judges also need to judge a certain amount of tests if they are trying to get promoted to the next level and they may be trial-judging the next level of tests - so sometimes you might see a big bunch of judges up on the panel - some of those people might be trial judges -
The other day we had a very short two-hour test session and I think we had eight judges!
Fun times!
I was more anticipating 6 or 7... Did not think about trial judging though!
Random stuff from years of test days:
45 minutes early if you're first test of the day; an hour if you're on later. And, if you're having to kit yourself out (hair, dress, makeup) you need to allow for buffer time for that - it's great to arrive 45 minutes early if the test day is running 1/2 hour ahead ... but, if you need 15 minutes to change etc, you're late on the ice.
If you want to practice other "stuff" in the warmup, your coach should, as courtesy, ask the judge's permission as it can be distracting AND disturbing to other skaters- and frankly, practicing stuff in another discipline is frowned upon. You are supposed to be practicing what you are testing. Skaters who are warming up a dance may be thrownoff by somebody doing a spin; there's enough stress out there.
Test chairs will delay a test if they get too far ahead. Same thing with comps. Avoids problems later.
Yes, you have to be on the ice for warmup if you're going to test. No, they don't have to allow you to skate later, particularly if the judge for your test is done for that day - not all judges can evaluate all disciplines.
Our test schedule doesn't show the assigned judges. One of my skaters was supposed to have three judges for her test, but a Gold judge volunteered to do her Prelim test solo. Unfortunately, that judge wants power, power and more power on every Move, including the forward Circle 8, which was a bit wobbly, but the sheet read "didn't have enough power." 88)
Similar less-powerful skaters have passed at other sessions with the three-judge panel because the other two judges' scores offset this judge's scores.
Skater got a retest and isn't interested in testing any more because she felt the judging is/was unfair.
I can definitely see having almost a half-dozen judges for a six-hour test session. They must be so cold and tired.
Quote from: jjane45 on August 14, 2012, 11:59:36 PM
How many judges for a regular test session that you see? Mine is a rink sponsored (instead of club sponsored) test session and I expected a smaller field, shocked to count a total of 10 judges listed!! (6 hours, MITF / FS / dance)
Our club has 3 judges all day, 4 if we can afford it.. No one is local, so it is expensive to bring them in. They do an all day test session, and then an all day competition. We definetly schedule breaks for them.
I've never seen a list. You don't know who you get until you step on the ice.
I have seen a bundle of trial judges, but they sit seperatly and skaters do not see their sheets. They also travel on their own expense, not the clubs.
I just discovered which judges are assigned for the high moves tests... their initials are noted in the schedule with smaller font type :)
my last test everyone was able to talk to the judge for a while after the session was over, as it was a very very small test. When is it generally ok to approach the judges with questions when they have a dozen more tests to judge? :)
Quote from: jjane45 on August 15, 2012, 09:28:24 AM
When is it generally ok to approach the judges with questions when they have a dozen more tests to judge?
Best to approach the Test Chair and let them speak to the judges about the possibility of arranging a meeting.
Quote from: Clarice on August 15, 2012, 09:37:07 AM
Best to approach the Test Chair and let them speak to the judges about the possibility of arranging a meeting.
OK another reason to arrive early... Figure out who is the test chair and request the meeting in advance :) Is it normally arranged thru the test chair? Say if the coach / skater only want to clarify a comment from one specific judge on the judging sheet?
That being said, can testers expect to get a copy of the judges' comments or it needs to be specifically asked for?
Quote from: jjane45 on August 15, 2012, 11:38:26 AM
OK another reason to arrive early... Figure out who is the test chair and request the meeting in advance :) Is it normally arranged thru the test chair? Say if the coach / skater only want to clarify a comment from one specific judge on the judging sheet?
That being said, can testers expect to get a copy of the judges' comments or it needs to be specifically asked for?
For a USFS test, your coach will be given copies of the judges sheets. They should be given two sets, one for you, one for their records. That's usually how you find out if you pass- you get your sheets, and count the number of them that say pass.
Unfortunately, I've never been able to speak to a judge to ask about comments. You're usually just left to guess what they meant. It certainly isn't the norm to ask for a critique on test day- rather, people (in areas with judges) seem to bring them in prior to the test to get comments.
A skater really shouldn't ever approach the judges on their own. A coach may, but if there are tons of coaches- they could overwhelm the judges, so generally, all the communication with the judges is done through the test chair.
Quote from: jjane45 on August 13, 2012, 04:33:58 PM
"Just out of curiosity" questions again for testing days! Really hope to hear behind the scenes stories esp. from test chairs :) Not a test chair but took my first tests last week so...
How are the tests scheduled for the day in general? I vaguely remember hearing higher level skaters test earlier in the day, but if there is a contingency (e.g. taking 2 beginner MITF tests), would it still work in that order? Looking at my schedule from last week, I was the first test (FRESH ICE!) and only Adult Pre-Bronze MITF and warmed up with 5 pre-pre FS skaters and 1 pre FS skater. I was the only Moves person in the warm up. After those tests were complete, for my Adult Pre-Bronze FS test, I warmed up with 2 Pre FS, 2 Pre Juv FS, and 1 Juv FS. No music was played. After that, the tests were Intermediate FS, Intermediate Pairs, Novice FS, Intermediate MIFT, Senior FS, Junior FS, and Senior FS. Then came all of the Dance tests. The next day, while I don't have access to that schedule anymore, I recall seeing some Adult Bronze and Silver MITF and FS tests along with other Standard Track FS tests, I think.
Some lower level tests only require a single judge, if three judges were brought in for the higher level tests, would all three be kept for the lower level tests as well? For my Pre-Bronze tests, I had a panel of 3.
Would the tests be divided by discipline? Say finish all MITF tests then move to FS, then dance, pairs etc.? For the most part but not followed to a T.
For smaller testing days, it's inevitable to group skaters of different abilities into the same warm up group. What is the biggest level difference you've observed? (pre-pre warming up with senior anyone?) I was Pre-Bronze FS with a Juvenile FS.
Regarding warm ups, my coach had my practice my 5 minute warm up and time it on a stopwatch. I was very thankful she did this because (1) I had a mission and a focus when I went out there for warm up and didn't have time to feel lost, (2) I used that 5 minutes to practice my weakest elements, and (3) since I'd timed the 5 minute warm up I knew I'd maximize the opportunity to my advantage. My nerves didn't hit me until I was done with the first element of my Moves test. Then, I felt like my legs were made of noodles.
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Quote from: jjane45 on August 15, 2012, 11:38:26 AM
OK another reason to arrive early... Figure out who is the test chair and request the meeting in advance :) Is it normally arranged thru the test chair? Say if the coach / skater only want to clarify a comment from one specific judge on the judging sheet?
That being said, can testers expect to get a copy of the judges' comments or it needs to be specifically asked for?
You or your coach will be given a copy of your test scores with comments. I never gave 2 copies unless a coach specifically requested it. Some test chairs will only give papers to the coach and some will only give to the skater.
You should be checking in with the test chair or assistant test chair when you arrive. S/he will be the one running around like crazy... ha ha but not really.
If you want to speak to the judges, you should arrange it with the test chair. She will know when the judges will have a break to speak with you. The judges that I worked with in my area liked to be asked in advance. Mostly skaters that wanted to get quick clarifications on comments written on sheets if there was a retry. If you want to go in depth about your test, you should probably get a critique on a different day (preferably before the test).
I forgot to mention, I got there an hour early even though the test schedule asked skaters to arrive at least 30 minutes prior to their warm up.
Quote from: slcbelle on August 15, 2012, 12:55:19 PM
I forgot to mention, I got there an hour early even though the test schedule asked skaters to arrive at least 30 minutes prior to their warm up.
The email reply I received states one hour is expected for this test.
Quote from: Clarice on August 15, 2012, 09:37:07 AM
Best to approach the Test Chair and let them speak to the judges about the possibility of arranging a meeting.
Just sent an email asking to "exchange a few words" regarding comments. Hopefully it will do the trick, coach is not coming with me.
Evaluators vary in terms of willingness to "meet" with skaters and coaches. They're volunteers, of course :) and, if they experience what my DD has had in terms of being harangued, nearly assaulted, abused, and howled over by skating "moms" and also skaters (and coaches) - you can understand why they're gunshy of being "chatted" with. If you think of a test day of, say, 30 skaters - all of whom want "just 5 minutes of your time" - then, that's 150 minutes, which is 2-1/2 hours!
Quote from: Sk8tmum on August 15, 2012, 05:17:37 PM
If you think of a test day of, say, 30 skaters - all of whom want "just 5 minutes of your time" - then, that's 150 minutes, which is 2-1/2 hours!
exactly! On the other hand I also repeatedly heard judges in general are happy to provide feedback when sought after. So I'm trying to find out when is a good occasion to approach the judges, if all possible.
Hoping to hear from the test chair :)
Quote from: jjane45 on August 15, 2012, 06:16:25 PM
exactly! On the other hand I also repeatedly heard judges in general are happy to provide feedback when sought after. So I'm trying to find out when is a good occasion to approach the judges, if all possible.
Hoping to hear from the test chair :)
Most judges don't mind sharing their opinion and going over the test sheets with you. One has to bear in mind that a judge sees a LOT of tests in one day and may not remember all of the details about your test. It will help to have your test sheet with the comments on it. It may also be easier to remember an adult test if there are not many adults testing that day as your test will stand out because you are an adult and not one of the throngs of 8 year olds who after a while all look alike... LOL
I have definitely been harangued - mostly by coache (well, just one coach that stands out) and sometimes by parents and so it is good to maybe set up a more formal meeting so that everyone is on even ground so to speak.
We have exactly two adults testing adult tests, so hopefully I'll be easy to remember ;)
Because I am the first skater after warm up, we went thru how to "stall" so I am not rushed into starting if I am not yet ready. Kleenex and water bottle on the boards, blow nose / drink water / tie skates, and not to make eye contact with the judges. (OK the last one was jokingly thrown in by Partnering Coach lol)
Stalling isn't a good idea, says this test chair. In my club, ice time is limited and test sessions can be tightly scheduled to make maximum use of the available ice and with hockey teams frothing to get on the second the clock tricks over to "their" hour, running over isn't an option. Skaters who stall waste precious time and can throw off the whole schedule. Plus it's perceived as rude behavior by the judges. You know you're first after the warm-up. Best to be ready to skate then.
Just going to add another support to "get there super early!"
For me this is never a problem, I'm normally at the rink at the start of competition/testing anyway. I like watching skating :)
But I know late last year we had a showcase event that ended up running half an hour early. One of the skaters nearly missed her routine altogether, and my grandparents, who are notorious for being early to everything, walked in the rink door just as I stepped OFF the ice...
But I also treat it like an airport. I'm never later than two hours early for a flight. If you can stay warm/get there, two hours might be a good safety buffer.
But then maybe not everyone is as paranoid about it as me...
I vaguely remember that in competition, skaters can have one minute from getting announced until taking the starting pose? Is it true for tests a well? IMO they mentioned stalling as an emergency safety measure, say my nerves suddenly break down or something, lol.
Ant it reminded me to bring Kleenex and water bottle, yeah :)
Another thing I learned from the testing schedule: pre juv thru novice moves are double paneled, prepre and prelim moves triple paneled, so is the prepre free skate. Again, adult pre bronze tests benefited from being grouped into higher level FS, private ice! :) I don't understand why the other pre bronze skater is not in my pre bronze FS warm up group, it's a much smaller group and less intimidating. they could have totally double paneled us as well. :)
Quote from: blue111moon on August 16, 2012, 07:20:18 AM
Stalling isn't a good idea, says this test chair. In my club, ice time is limited and test sessions can be tightly scheduled to make maximum use of the available ice and with hockey teams frothing to get on the second the clock tricks over to "their" hour, running over isn't an option. Skaters who stall waste precious time and can throw off the whole schedule. Plus it's perceived as rude behavior by the judges. You know you're first after the warm-up. Best to be ready to skate then.
Isn't it weird how the same test session that was running an hour ahead at the middle of the day can be 30 minutes behind by the end of the day?
A friend took his Gold free on a session running late just before a minor league professional hockey game started...the fans were in the stand, the refs in the box ready to go. He said at least the fans were polite and applauded for him...but it really threw off a few of the younger skaters who had to skate in that last warm up group.
Quote from: jjane45 on August 16, 2012, 08:19:55 AM
I vaguely remember that in competition, skaters can have one minute from getting announced until taking the starting pose? Is it true for tests a well? IMO they mentioned stalling as an emergency safety measure, say my nerves suddenly break down or something, lol.
There isn't a timer for tests. The worst that is going to happen is a judge says "jjane, we are ready for you!".
However, being first after the warm up usually means you should finish at the 1 minute call, go to the wall, talk to your coach, catch your breathe, blow your nose etc. Even elites do that if you watch the warm ups at major events. First skater up always loses warm up time.
Skating second in the warm up is always the best position, but for PB you'll be fine, and you'll be doubly fine for Bronze, since you already got to try the ice out for PB. And doing a sit spin or backspin during your PB free warm up isn't going to be out of place, so you can do those elements from your Bronze test if you want. The jumps on PB are optional anyway (IIRC), so you could warm up any of your jumps then and not be noticed.
my coach always advises skaters to get off a little early when theyre skating first, to give them chance to get it together before they have to skate
another reason judges might be unwilling to give feedback is that their comments can get misinterpretted. One girl at my rink failed a moves test for being scratchy. The judge said he thought this was probably down to her blades, but that he couldn't pass her even if that was the case. The story that went round the rink was that he failed her because he doesn't like this particular blade(which all the skaters of a particular coach have). Another girl supposedly failed because her coach had been asked to move further away from the judges while a previous skater was getting their results and it made the judge want to fail that coaches skaters. So nothing to do with she just didn't skate to standard then :-\
I wouldn't recomend doing elements in a moves warm up, but it should be ok to do Bronze elements in a pre-bronze warm up (although it would be very kind to mention this to the other skaters in the warm up if you know them, so they don't panic thinking they should have those elements too lol!)
Haha thank you. kids in my pre bronze group are testing prelim and pre juv, so it actually blends in perfectly, lol.
Quote from: jjane45 on August 15, 2012, 03:34:36 PM
Just sent an email asking to "exchange a few words" regarding comments. Hopefully it will do the trick, coach is not coming with me.
A very kind test chair responded almost immediately after I emailed her directly, saying it will be arranged no problem :D
And a very kind coach from the testing rink taught at my home rink Wednesday, she graciously agreed to film me!!! Fingers crossed it's a good test...
Well the test day went very well, all of the tips in this thread helped a lot :)
I learned how much the volunteers and judges appreciate smiles and "thank you"-s. They're contributing precious times and resources into skating events and some judges are not even local.
One thing I was not sure about is, after the skater finishes the test, should s/he and coach wait in a specific area for the scoring sheets? I think runners spent time calling my name in the lobby but I was by the rink side watching more tests...
Most test sessions i've been to, they give the sheets to the coach, not the skater.
Quote from: phoenix on August 19, 2012, 04:50:05 AM
Most test sessions i've been to, they give the sheets to the coach, not the skater.
They did know my coach was not able to come. It's just... I did not know whether I need to make myself more visible, lol. At larger rinks or testing sessions it must be even more difficult to find someone!
Yes, you should make yourself "available" for the test sheet. If it's somewhere you don't normally test, check with somebody who is familiar with the procedure to know where you should wait. Don't "lurk" outside of the judges room though, in the hopes of grabbing the judge who is dashing out to the bathroom !
Quote from: blue111moon on August 16, 2012, 07:20:18 AM
Stalling isn't a good idea, says this test chair. In my club, ice time is limited and test sessions can be tightly scheduled to make maximum use of the available ice and with hockey teams frothing to get on the second the clock tricks over to "their" hour, running over isn't an option. Skaters who stall waste precious time and can throw off the whole schedule. Plus it's perceived as rude behavior by the judges. You know you're first after the warm-up. Best to be ready to skate then.
That happened to a girl at my rink's recent test session. She was in the middle of her novice moves test, waiting to start her next sequence, and the refs opened the door and moseyed onto the ice with their drinks setting up in one of the penalty boxes, chatting and completely ignoring the skating director over the microphone asking them politely to get off the ice. It took one of the judges getting their attention to get their tushes off the ice. During this time hockey moms were letting their kids run rampant, which I think was completely rude. This mom told her kids to shush several times but then would let them continue to run around. If I hadn't been feeling like caca I would have approached her and asked her to keep her kids seated until the tests were over because it was a major distraction and not fair to the girl on the ice who paid god knows how much to test that level. Instead the other coaches and I gave her some probably not so nice glares...
I just wanted to say that this discussion has been very helpful! I am planning on testing in one month- eek! It's been 15 years do I'm pretty freaked out, and this is giving me a good idea of what to expect. :)
Quote from: JSM on August 19, 2012, 07:45:51 PM
I just wanted to say that this discussion has been very helpful! I am planning on testing in one month- eek! It's been 15 years do I'm pretty freaked out, and this is giving me a good idea of what to expect. :)
Good luck! This thread certainly helped me a ton.
Did you check out the "companion thread"? Common questions before the first competition / test session (http://skatingforums.com/index.php/topic,1712.0.html)
Quote from: jjane45 on August 19, 2012, 08:03:44 PM
Good luck! This thread certainly helped me a ton.
Did you check out the "companion thread"? Common questions before the first competition / test session (http://skatingforums.com/index.php/topic,1712.0.html)
Seconded! I tested for the first time this morning and I learned so much about what to expect from these threads.
Speaking of timing, my test session this morning started running late because one judge was about 40 minutes late. They were able to do the pre-pre, pre and pre-bronze moves and then everything came to a halt waiting for the final judge to show up. They made it up at the end by having all the dancers do only one pattern of each dance and waiting on the ice in-between each one. The same coach was partnering every single dancer, so he'd skate over and pick one of us up, head to the corner, skate a pattern, finish, and then come pick up the next girl and do it all over again. He partnered 13 dance tests in about 20 minutes! He was a really good sport about it, and the test session finish exactly one minute before the scheduled end time.
Quote from: alejeather on August 19, 2012, 09:19:43 PM
Seconded! I tested for the first time this morning and I learned so much about what to expect from these threads.
. They made it up at the end by having all the dancers do only one pattern of each dance and waiting on the ice in-between each one. .
One pattern or once around (two patterns)? One pattern is just not enough but you could certainly save time that way! I am assuming these were all lower-level tests.
Quote from: icedancer2 on August 19, 2012, 09:25:40 PM
One pattern or once around (two patterns)? One pattern is just not enough but you could certainly save time that way! I am assuming these were all lower-level tests.
Very mixed feelings even if these are all preliminary dances.
Quote from: jjane45 on August 19, 2012, 09:45:45 PM
Very mixed feelings even if these are all preliminary dances.
Yes, I think it's very confusing especially for skaters who test their preliminary dances. They obviously don't have enough testing experience and having them skate only half of what they expected makes the whole situation even more stressful.
Up to Senior Bronze (which is European here) the norm and standard is one pattern around the ice. If the judge chooses, as s/he wants to check something, then, they are sent around for up to an additional lap. You only get the double laps with the Junior Silver on up, i.e. Keats, Harris, American and onwards.
My DD is an evaluator; her call on this is that, at the lower levels, the lower level of complexity in the dances is such that an evaluator can clearly see what needs to be seen in a single lap; they give them that second lap to help them correct something that might have been a momentary glitch.
We can also solo from Senior Bronze on up if the evaluator requests (although adults have a different rule).
Quote from: Sk8tmum on August 20, 2012, 08:17:33 AM
Up to Senior Bronze (which is European here) the norm and standard is one pattern around the ice.
For the preliminary tests (Dutch Waltz, Canasta Tango, Rhythm Blues; others too at other levels, but these are the only ones I know for sure, because I haven't gotten past them yet) the requirement is one lap around the ice- but that is two patterns of the dance. This is reduced from 3 patterns, or 1 1/2 laps it used to require. I think it was shortened from 3 patterns to 2, because like you said- a lap is enough to see if there are issues. But this test it sounds like they did half a lap, if only 1 pattern was done.
I'm confused how the judge can change the requirement on the fly- could they also tell you you only have to do half of the MITF pattern? It won't be necessary to skate your free program, just do the elements? The test requirements are set, and 2 patterns of those dances are required. It doesn't make sense that the judge can decide to have you do something else.
It sounds to me like alejeather was describing one lap (two patterns) for each skater. They just had all the skaters lined up one after the other on the ice, instead of taking the time for exits and entrances. You could not do the test on one pattern - checking the repeat is important.
The number of patterns required for dance testing and competition can be confusing at first, because testing is different from competition, because different dances require different numbers of patterns, and because for some dances one pattern is a half lap while for others one pattern is a full lap. Always check the rule book.
I just checked my own dance test video, 3 prelim dances in 3 minutes. It does make sense if they still skated the required number of patterns (13 tests in 20 minutes), just cutting the transition time from one tester to the next tester. Poor dance coach, bet it was frantic! ;o
We did only one pattern, half a lap around the rink. The judges said they had watched us all do one pattern in the warm-up so they only needed to see one more pattern. There was a little bit of a flap about whether it was legitimate that they had decided to judge the warm-up. They were all low level dances, mostly preliminary and a few pre-bronze. I'm guessing they probably passed everybody, because it seems unfair if what they had seen in the warm-up seemed unsatisfactory that they then only gave the dancers one pattern to get it right.
Whoa. That really does not sound right to me. However, the judges make these decisions, and if it's in favor of the skaters, I guess I wouldn't argue.
Yeah, that's kind of crazy. I would think if anyone got a retry there would have been a pretty big fuss.
I was told of a judge who will watch the warm up and give critiques and then have all the tests done rather casually. Most people will do better in the warm up so for some people this is an advantage. :). Some judges just want the skaters to pass I think...I had a driving tester acting like a driving instructor during a test, made me a lot more relaxed and I passed. Some judges are just really nice.
I think a lot of judges do include the warm up on as part of the information to pass a test. My fantastic warm up is the only way I can justify how I passed my Bronze test (which was a nightmare).
But it still seems odd to not have the skaters even DO the requirement for the test.
Quote from: Clarice on August 21, 2012, 09:48:38 AM
Whoa. That really does not sound right to me. However, the judges make these decisions, and if it's in favor of the skaters, I guess I wouldn't argue.
One of the dance judges there was apparently a very high level dance judge and it was his decision. The coaches were saying, "It's strange, but whatever <dance judge's name> wants, <dance judge's name> gets."
I think they probably rotated judging, too, because, while there were three dance judges there, I only had one of them judge my dances. She had actually been on the same freestyle session with me the day before during my dance lesson and I can't help but wonder if she was judging me then, too :P
They're probably figuring the USFSA would never hear about it, so they'd never know. If they did know about it, I'm not sure what they would do with those tests, if they would be counted as legit or not. The rule is, 2 patterns.
Quote from: Clarice on August 21, 2012, 09:48:38 AM
Whoa. That really does not sound right to me. However, the judges make these decisions, and if it's in favor of the skaters, I guess I wouldn't argue.
I would probably feel disappointment. Really, you work hard to make your program passable and then oops, the judges barely watch the real performance, just the warm up. It doesn't seem fair to me.
Quote from: Icicle on August 21, 2012, 06:12:02 PM
I would probably feel disappointment. Really, you work hard to make your program passable and then oops, the judges barely watch the real performance, just the warm up. It doesn't seem fair to me.
This. And not quite fair for others who work hard, skate well in the warm up and fail the actual test.
On the other hand, what was the best solution, assuming additional ice time was not available? Turn away the last couple skaters and tell them to come back next session?
Quote from: jjane45 on August 21, 2012, 06:41:16 PM
On the other hand, what was the best solution, assuming additional ice time was not available? Turn away the last couple skaters and tell them to come back next session?
Having more available dance partners would have helped - they can do double and even triple and quadruple flights if you had enough partners.
Quote from: icedancer2 on August 21, 2012, 07:36:39 PM
Having more available dance partners would have helped - they can do double and even triple and quadruple flights if you had enough partners.
As a tester, I may be hesitant to partner someone I've never skated with for tests though...
Quote from: jjane45 on August 21, 2012, 07:50:21 PM
Add a tester, I may be hesitant to partner someone I've never skated with for tests though...
Yes that is true but as you move up you should be able to skate with just about anyone... this is what social dance is all about - and also the judges could decide that your partner was somehow not suitable and you would have to skate it with someone else (yes this is in the rules) - so I guess what I meant by my comment was that if there were more suitable partners in the first place (more male dance coaches) and they could have scheduled the skaters such that there could be more testers on the ice at one time they could have gotten in both patterns for all of the skaters.
I am sure this is not the first time that someone bent the rules a bit because of some unforeseen circumstance. In fact, stuff comes up all of the time and you just have to deal with it in the best way possible!!!
True about social dance. I have no problem practicing with other skaters in the dance class, but for testing I would hope to get the most benefit from a strong and familiar partner.
I read about the partner assignment in rulebook and wondered what was the qualification for substitute partner.
I've seen a partner substituted when the original partner was pretty significantly off time (a freestyle coach who was taking a few students through the preliminary dance tests) - all his students had to reskate their dances with one of the dance partners that was there for other skaters. The judge let them have another warm up and I think they all passed in the end.
Quote from: MimiG on August 21, 2012, 10:05:56 PM
I've seen a partner substituted when the original partner was pretty significantly off time (a freestyle coach who was taking a few students through the preliminary dance tests) - all his students had to reskate their dances with one of the dance partners that was there for other skaters. The judge let them have another warm up and I think they all passed in the end.
How frustrating and can't imagine the post-test drama. Wonder how the students managed in practice.
Could a female ice dancer be recruited on the fly to partner female dance testers? The rulebook says it has to be the tester's own same sex coach right?
Re the one pattern only tests, I guess if someone wasn't up to scratch on the first pattern but had done ok in the warm up they'd be allowed to do another pattern to try and pass? I hope so anyway!
Quote from: jjane45 on August 21, 2012, 10:22:46 PM
Could a female ice dance be recruited on the fly to partner female dance testers? The rulebook says it has to be the tester's own same sex coach right?
The way the rulebook is written, I don't think so. It appears a pre-existing coaching relationship (wouldn't have to be your primary coach) needs to exist to skate with a same sex partner. However, if for some reason my* coach wasn't up to snuff and the judges thought he was the reason I was failing the test and Meryl Davis was standing on the sidelines offering to skate the Dutch Waltz, you'd think a judge could consider going by the spirit of the rule, rather than the letter.
*not MY coach, a hypothetical one. My coach is an awesome partner, I'm lucky.
Quote from: jjane45 on August 21, 2012, 10:22:46 PM
How frustrating and can't imagine the post-test drama. Wonder how the students managed in practice.
Could a female ice dance be recruited on the fly to partner female dance testers? The rulebook says it has to be the tester's own same sex coach right?
I don't know if they would be recruited on the fly, but I have seen a female coach take kids through the lower level dances - Dutch Waltz and Canasta Tango. It was a club were just about everyone does dance and they have no male partner. They bring in the male partner for test days and 1 practice before hand. The male partner is pretty tall and also pretty expensive. So they have the smaller kids working on lower dances partner with the smaller female coach. They save the male partner for the older skaters working on higher tests.