From the meeting book (page 41):
302. Adult Skating Committee
Amend the jump requirements in rule TR 32.12 (page 24, Tests Book) as follows:
TR 32.12 Adult Gold Free Skate Test
Jumps:
1. Choice of Axel jump, double Salchow or double toe loop (as a solo jump, not in combination or sequence)
Committee vote: 49 yes, 2 no, 1 abstain
Rationale: This change will better suit those adults who may more readily acquire a double Salchow or double toe loop versus the Axel. This change would also lend more credibility to the highest free skate test in the adult structure and acknowledge the achievement of those adults who have performed a multi-rotational jump to achieve this test level.
Financial impact: None
Implementation date: September 2, 2012
303. Adult Skating Committee
Amend the spin requirements in rule TR 32.11 (page 24, Tests Book) as follows:
TR 32.11 Adult Silver Free Skate Test
Spins: Recommended two spins which must include the following:
1. One camel spin (minimum three revolutions in position)
2. One layback, attitude or sit spin (minimum four revolutions in position)
3. One combination spin with only one change of position (minimum three revolutions in each position). Change of foot is optional.
Committee vote: 51 yes, 1 no, 0 abstain
Rationale: Reducing the spin requirement to two will allow skaters more time in their test programs to develop transitions, enhance choreography, and work on holding the required two spins for more revolutions. Reducing the number of spins in the test program may also encourage more skaters to achieve their testing goals. The adult silver free skate test currently requires an attitude, layback or sit spin. The sit spin is already tested on the bronze free skate test. The layback or attitude spin can be used as a choice of a solo spin when the skater advances to the adult gold free skate test.
By eliminating the spins tested at a prior (or subsequent) level, the spin requirements can be reduced without compromising the skill development associated with each test level. While only two spins are required, the skater may choose to do three so as to use the same program for testing and the free skate with well-balanced program requirements.
Financial impact: None
Implementation date: September 2, 2012
304. Adult Skating Committee
Amend spin requirements in rule TR 32.10 (page 23, Tests Book) as follows:
TR 32.10 Adult Bronze Free Skate Test
Spins:
1. One-foot upright spin (minimum four revolutions in position)
2. One-foot backspin, entry optional (minimum three revolutions in position)
32. Sit spin (minimum three revolutions in position)
Committee vote: 51 yes, 1 no, 0 abstain
Rationale: Reducing the spin requirement to two will allow skaters more time in their test programs to develop transitions, enhance choreography, and work on holding the required two spins for more revolutions. Reducing the number of spins in the test program may also encourage more skaters to achieve their testing goals. The adult bronze free skate test currently requires an upright spin, which is already tested on the adult pre-bronze free skate test. By eliminating a spin tested at a prior level, the spin requirement can be reduced without compromising the skill development associated with each test level.
Financial impact: None
Implementation date: September 2, 2012
305. Adult Skating Committee
What was it I said in the other thread... moving target?
I can't say that I disagree with the proposed changes... 2 spins would definitely be easier to fit into my bronze freeskate than the 3 I currently have, it's frustrating to realize that by the time I'm ready to take this test (I'm aiming for fall) the requirements will have probably changed.
Thread moved. Note: these are the proposed by the Adult Committee and up for vote at Governing Council.
There are more changes proposed for Adult Freeskate jumps and spins.
I'm confused: So you get to pick 2 of the 3 spins? I think a lot of adults would be happy with that.
Or are they getting rid of the upright spin for bronze, and getting rid of the sit for silver?
If it is pick 2 of the 3- I think a lot of adults will be happy with it. If it is get rid of upright, I think it will be unpopular, but I'm fine with it.
If it is pick 2 of 3: I wonder if they will be stricter about what passes though? (Since presumably you are doing your best.)
A lot of adults (myself included) don't have a true (low) sit spin and a lot of adults don't have a good edge on their backspin.
It does seem to make the test a lot easier for natural jumpers though.
Since bronze just got a 10 second time boost a few years ago, it doesn't seem like time is really the issue.
I'd likely still do three spins as it is the only chance I have to show I'm a competent skater and hope for a boost over the crappy loop.
ETA: Okay- strikethroughs were not there when I first posted. Now I understand.
I think it will be very unpopular, as that upright spin was the "gimmee" for a lot of adults.
I'm fine with it, and will likely still do the upright spin. I have plenty of time. What I don't have is a third single jump!
I just don't understand the rationale of "helping adults achieve their testing goal". How does getting rid of the EASY element do that?
Quick note: The OP didn't include the strikethroughs:
summary: eliminate no.2 (layback spins...) on Silver and eliminate no.1 (upright) on Bronze
Sorry for the confusion. Thanks for the clean-up, Isk8NYC!
BTW: LOTS of proposed changes to the Adult well-rounded Programs...please take the time to look at the 2012 GC Meeting Book, accessible through the Members Only site at USFS.
I am NOWHERE near the Gold test (and never will be)- but I think that is a good change too.
It makes the test more flexible. And there are some skaters who are more likely to get a double than an axel.
Quote from: drskater on April 06, 2012, 12:09:11 PM
Thanks for the clean-up, Isk8NYC!
No problem - there were two other proposals in the GC 2012 book that affect Adult Freeskate, but in looking at them, they're just adjustments to other parts of the rulebook to reflect these changes.
There are a lot of changes to Adult Pairs.
IMO the changes to the spin requirements are quite reasonable, especially for the Bronze freeskate test. The upright spin is redundant. Skaters will now have more time to perhaps try two backspins (usually the sticking point).
I wonder if there might be a challenge to the changes for Silver. I got the impression at last year's GC meeting that most delegates/committees wanted tests to be more challenging not less.
Quote from: drskater on April 06, 2012, 01:29:55 PM
Skaters will now have more time to perhaps try two backspins (usually the sticking point).
Do tests work like ISI programs where they only score your best attempt? I've never seen someone double up on a bad element. You get your second try on the reskate...
As for making silver more difficult- does that extra spin really do anything? The sit spin is already tested at bronze, so if you can't do layback/attitude, wouldn't you just do that again?
Quote from: Skittl1321 on April 06, 2012, 01:34:11 PMI've never seen someone double up on a bad element. You get your second try on the reskate...
I've heard of people loading their test programs with an extra jump "just in case", but usually not an extra spin... mostly because there just isn't enough time for it.
I'm honestly in favor of the changes to gold.. I strongly feel that I will have my 2sal back before my axel (not suer I will ever get that back), which makes gold seem like it may be a more realistic goal some day.
Quote from: sarahspins on April 06, 2012, 03:43:13 PM
I've heard of people loading their test programs with an extra jump "just in case", but usually not an extra spin... mostly because there just isn't enough time for it.
Oh I've heard of an extra jump- but a different one. Like people do flip and loop, because you only have to do one of them. But I've never heard that doing two loops, if one is okay and the other isn't will pass you. That's what doing the same spin twice would be. (If a judge can tell me if that WILL work- please let me know, because I'd love every chance I can get to do that stupid jump...I can't do a flip.)
I've already heard from one adult who is NOT happy about the proposed silver change. Attitude is her "go to" spin. She isn't amused it might not be on the test anymore.
AAAAARGH!! Please stop tinkering with the adult tests every year! I passed Silver Moves last year in a hurry to avoid the Spirals of Death and planned to take Silver Free not this summer, but the next. I am a great spinner and a horrible jumper (I do have toe loop, salchow, flip and loop, but the loop is teeny tiny) and doing spins is the relaxing part of my program, especially the attitude and the sit.
If you want to take something out, take one of the !@#$% jumps out, or allow them to be done in combination--as in sal-toe loop combo instead of requiring them to be done individually, so that the program is a rush from jump to jump. The Silver program I'm working on now is spent primarily on squeezing in the individual salchow, toe loop, flip, and loop all over the rink in 1:50. I know I'm working for a higher level, but quite honestly all the jumping is killing my 51 year old knees! How is leaving all the jumps in while dumping another spin out going to make the program more "balanced"?
And may I also suggest that this is a change that is going to, once again (as with the Silver spiral pattern) favor younger adult skater? See above comment about knees. How about offering the option of either a jump OR a spin?
The proposed changes to Adult Well-Balanced Programs affects Adult Bronze and Adult Pre-Bronze (also Pairs too, but I'm not posting these here).
[n.b. I'm trying to compensate for formating difficulties in cutting and pasting the info from the pdf file in order to post here. Errors can happen in this process. Please don't trust this info as official-- check out the GC Meeting book located in the Members Only section of the usfs web site. ;)]
42
305. Adult Skating Committee
Amend the jump and step requirements in rule 4590 (page 218, Rulebook) as follows:
4590 Adult Bronze
ADULT BRONZE WELL-BALANCED FREE SKATE
1:50 maximum time
Must contain the following elements in any order
JUMPS Maximum of four jump elements
• May be repeated only once and only in combination or in sequence.
• There must be at least one, but no more than three two, jump combinations or jump sequences
• One jump combination/sequence may consist of three jumps, and the other two may have only two jumps
• Only single jumps are allowed
• No Axels, double or triple jumps are permitted
SPINS Maximum of two spins of a different character
• If a spin includes a change of foot, it must have a minimum of three revolutions on each foot. All other
spins must have a minimum of three revolutions.
• There must be a minimum of two revolutions in each position or the position will not be counted.
• Spins with a flying entry are not permitted.
• The skaters have freedom to select the kinds of spins they intend to execute within the spin types
allowed.
Committee vote: 51 yes, 1 no, 0 abstain
Rationale: The adult bronze well-balanced free skate currently allows a maximum of three spins and four jump elements, three of which may be performed in combination (one of which may have three jumps). At a length of 1:50, it is difficult for most skaters at this level to attempt the maximum number of elements while completing a balanced program with time for transitions, choreography and moves in the field. Reducing the maximum number of spins from three to two and the number of jump combinations to two (one of which may have three jumps) will allow skaters more time to develop their programs with a well-balanced complement of elements.
Financial impact: None
Implementation date: September 1, 2012
306. Adult Skating Committee
Amend the jump and spin requirements in rule 4600 (page 219, Rulebook) as follows:
4600 Adult Pre-Bronze
ADULT PRE-BRONZE WELL-BALANCED FREE SKATE
1:40 maximum time
Must contain the following elements in any order
JUMPS Maximum of four jump elements
• The jumps may be repeated as individual jumps, in jump combinations and in jump sequences.
• May be repeated only once and only in combination or in sequence
• Only single or half-revolution jumps are allowed
• No Lutz, Axel or double jumps are permitted.
• No more than three two jump combinations or jump sequences may be included. One jump combination/
sequence may consist of three jumps, and the other may have only two jumps.
SPINS A maximum of two and no more than three spins
• Spins with a flying entry are not permitted
• Spins must have a minimum of three revolutions
• The skaters have freedom to select the kinds of spins they intend to execute within the spin types
allowed
Committee vote: 51 yes, 1 no, 0 abstain
Rationale: The adult pre-bronze well-balanced free skate currently allows a maximum of three spins and an unlimited number of jump elements, three of which may be performed in combination (one of which may have three jumps). At a length of 1:40, it is difficult for most skaters at this level to attempt the maximum number of elements while completing a balanced program with time for transitions, choreography and moves in the field. Reducing the maximum number of spins from three
to two and the number of jump combinations to two (one of which may have three jumps) will allow skaters more time to develop their programs with a well-balanced complement of elements.
Financial impact: None
Implementation date: September 1, 2012
I HATE that change to bronze well balanced program. Only TWO spins? Do we all have the knees of teenagers?
How is it balanced to have twice as many jump elements? (Especially since they can have more than one jump per "element")
The current spin limit is a MAXIMUM. If people don't think they have time to do three spins, don't do three spins- but for those of us who can't jump, spins are important. This is a terrible idea.
What does USFS have against spins?
So sorry (ARGH!!!!!)--strikethroughs added-- Skittl, please read the modified post--not as many jumps...
On the change to Pre-Bronze well balanced free skate - does a 1/2 jump, like a 1/2 flip, count when you're calling something a jump combination? They're limiting you to two jump sequences or combos now instead of three jump sequences or combos. So if you do a 1/2 flip - toe loop, will that use up one of your two jump combos or sequences?
The text above doesn't show the editing marks from the GC book. It actually says this: No more than [three in strikethrough text] two jump combinations or jump
sequences may be included. The number of jumps to be included is not limited. One jump combination/sequence may consist of three jumps, and the other may have only two jumps.
My program has a two jump combo, a three jump combo (brand new and not very good yet) and a 1/2 flip - toe loop. Looks like I may have to cut one of these. Or alternately, get a sit spin in a recognizable sit position (I've been trying for SO long) and try to move up to Bronze! Which is what I'd rather do...
I'm wondering about the 1/2 jumps in Artistic programs, too. Some of the competition announcements now limit you to three jumps at Pre-Bronze (they say this is to be compatibel with National Showcase, although I don't even think you can go to National Showcase at Pre-Bronze level). I've competed with skaters who interpreted this as limit as three jump PASSES and had jump combos or sequences such that they easily exceeded three jumps, whether 1/2 or single. My coach interprets the rule as 3 jumps TOTAL and considers the 1/2 flip - toe loop to be using up 2 of the 3 jumps. It gets confusing!
Quote from: drskater on April 07, 2012, 04:38:53 PM
So sorry (ARGH!!!!!)--strikethroughs added-- Skittl, please read the modified post--not as many jumps...
. Bit still four jump elements.
I hate the idea of getting rid of the possibility of spins. It is a max, not a requirement. Some of us have plenty of time for 3 spins and want to do them. I just hate the emphasis on jumping. I likely won't compete if this passes. The program won't be fun.
And sadly I found out our club is not sending a rep, and.for some reason may not send a proxy. That just sucks, because GC tends to rubber stamp.whatever the.adult committee sends.
Quote from: sk8lady on April 07, 2012, 09:18:41 AM
If you want to take something out, take one of the !@#$% jumps out, or allow them to be done in combination--as in sal-toe loop combo instead of requiring them to be done individually, so that the program is a rush from jump to jump.
I do not see any limit on combinations in the silver freeskate test rule. In fact, there are no limits on elements at all.
You need
1. Three different singles, including Lo and F
2. Single Combination
3. Half or single sequence
So you could do, for example,
1. F+Lo+T
2. T+T
3. Waltz+Waltz+Seq
The loop and flip are intended to be solo jumps on the Silver FS test.
Quote from: techskater on April 07, 2012, 09:20:28 PM
The loop and flip are intended to be solo jumps on the Silver FS test.
Yep, they don't count if you do them as a combo for a test, that only counts towards the one required combo jump. The test requirements are currently for 5 "jumps" (3 individual single jumps, which are Lo and F, plus one other single, then one combo, and one sequence).
I know this specifically because I asked a judge about it not that long ago regarding the required jumps for bronze - the single jumps have to be on their own for bronze, so I don't know why it would suddenly change for silver when the description is very similar (the required jumps being different, of course).
There is also no limit on the number of jumps in bronze or silver test programs, only in the WBP requirements for competition. Gold has more specific jump requirements, the wording in bronze and silver says "at least".
Quote from: sarahspins on April 08, 2012, 12:15:25 AM
I don't know why it would suddenly change for silver when the description is very similar
The rule for Bronze also does not say that the jumps may not be in combination.
It doesn't say so, but two coaches I asked, as well as the judge I spoke with made it very clear if those single jumps were in combination they wouldn't count towards the single jump requirements... if they would, there's no reason why I couldn't just do a sal/toe/loop and get all the required jumps out of the way quickly, but I was told I couldn't.
If someone knows someone who tested this way and was passed I'd be curious to hear about it, because I was told it couldn't be done.
I was hoping that they would change some of the MIF for Silver...as it stands now, I have no chance of passing. It will take me many years to even get some of the elements in any recognizable form :o
I'm taking my Bronze FS next month...hoping I pass this time-the backspin and sit spin are the elements I can barely do, even after 3-5 years of trying to "get" them.
Quote from: sarahspins on April 08, 2012, 12:36:19 AM
It doesn't say so, but two coaches I asked, as well as the judge I spoke with made it very clear if those single jumps were in combination they wouldn't count towards the single jump requirements... if they would, there's no reason why I couldn't just do a sal/toe/loop and get all the required jumps out of the way quickly, but I was told I couldn't.
My coach agrees with this--every time I try to slap two jumps together she separates them and tells me to skate faster if I want to add a combo! Just wait till she turns 50 and realizes that, in fact, all those snapping and popping sounds are my knees and not static from the music player!!
Quote from: nicklaszlo on April 08, 2012, 12:28:56 AM
The rule for Bronze also does not say that the jumps may not be in combination.
It is pretty clear they are supposed to be in isolation. The test requires a toe loop and one in combination. If the single could be in combination, why do two?
You'd be taking a huge risk setting your program up that way.
I think I know where the confusion is coming from. The TEST book does not define what USFS considers to be individual jumps, and jump sequences. It simply states the requirements.
However, the RULEBOOK does indeed specify what USFS means by (1) individual jump; (2) jump comination; and (3) jump sequence. You can find this information under the Technical Requirements, TR 4100-- (p. 187 of the current edition).
The assumption is that when you read the information about tests, you've already read the relevant information in the Rulebook.
In short: for Adult Bronze freeskate, you must perform the three required jumps (salchow, toe-loop, and whatever) as individual jumps and the only combination you need to do is the waltz-toe. (I suppose you could throw another combination if you feel like it, but you'd be wasting your time because the judges cannot mark it/count it.)
The judges want to see single jumps so they can see the entrance, take-off, and landing of each jump. A jump combo or sequence does not show this.
Quote from: drskater on April 08, 2012, 10:49:23 AM
However, the RULEBOOK does indeed specify what USFS means by (1) individual jump; (2) jump comination; and (3) jump sequence. You can find this information under the Technical Requirements, TR 4100-- (p. 187 of the current edition).
4101A defines "Individual Jump" and "Solo Jump" but does not define "Single Jump" which is the term in the test book. Single jump is defined in both books, but that definition says nothing about combinations/sequences.
Of course, if the judges think you are using combinations to cover up poor technique, they can ask for a reskate or fail the test.
There are many things that are customary which are not in the rulebook.
Quote from: nicklaszlo on April 08, 2012, 04:52:30 PM
4101A defines "Individual Jump" and "Solo Jump" but does not define "Single Jump" which is the term in the test book. Single jump is defined in both books, but that definition says nothing about combinations/sequences.
Of course, if the judges think you are using combinations to cover up poor technique, they can ask for a reskate or fail the test.
I agree- the test book does not say that the jumps have to be done individually. But, as I pointed out from the wording of the Bronze requirements- the judges are going to expect that, and the judging sheets are set up to "check off" them individually.
It would be a huge risk to set your program up that way, if the judges won't accept it.
If you did a great salchow-loop, your reskates are now going to be a salchow and a loop. Meaning no chance to reskate what you DIDN'T do well.
If you said "hey, I did a toe loop in the required waltz-toe combo" and didn't do another, you would be missing an element.
Can you clarify what's happening with step/spiral sequence in the WBP requirements? Is that requirement eliminated? I *was* having a tough time fitting in all four required jumps, 3 spins, and a step sequence in my own brain's mishmashed misunderstanding of the Bronze FS test. . . but a program with a MAX of 2 spins AND no step/spiral sequence? Seems kind of empty.
Totally agree with dropping the requirement for an upright spin in Bronze FS test. In COP-speak a fwd upright spin and a backspin are both upright spins so one would count for nothing anyhow, right? Plus, that spin *was* tested at pre-bronze.
The bronze freeskate TEST does not currently required a step sequence. It requires connecting moves between elements. If you can't fit a step sequence in, take it out.
The WBP requirements are for competitive programs. Since the requirements are maximums, unlike the test you don't have to do all 3 spins and all 4 jump elements if you don't skate fast enough to fit it all in -or hold spins for a really really long time- (but you do have to do a step or a spiral sequence).
I don't see the problem of testing the spins at multiple levels, because they require more revolutions and higher quality. Plus the upright spin is a confidence move for many bronze skaters who often struggle with backspin, sit spin, and flip/loop. COP codes have nothing to do with this level, as it is scored under 6.0 where a backspin and a scratch spin were common in a single program. The jumps tested repeat themselves, so why not the spins? Or maybe bronze should only require 2 single jumps (plus the combo), since loop and flip are required at silver. Otherwise, one of those has already been tested at bronze. Why require it again? I'm kind of indifferent to this though.
I really really do not want to see the max spins go to 2 in a bronze competition program. I honestly won't bother competing. Skating would not be fun anymore.
Quote from: LilJen on April 09, 2012, 12:49:54 PM
Can you clarify what's happening with step/spiral sequence in the WBP requirements? Is that requirement eliminated? I *was* having a tough time fitting in all four required jumps, 3 spins, and a step sequence in my own brain's mishmashed misunderstanding of the Bronze FS test. . . but a program with a MAX of 2 spins AND no step/spiral sequence? Seems kind of empty.
LilJen!! Good Call!!
Since the motion reads "Amend the jump and
step requirements..." but
only describes spins and jumps (i.e. no new step requirements) in the proposed new WPB description and the rationale, I believe you have discovered the ineviable bane of all business meetings-- the [misleading] typo :-\
At least, IMO it's a typo. I would guess somebody typed "step" instead of "spin." Hmmmm....
Quote from: Skittl1321 on April 09, 2012, 12:54:27 PMI really really do not want to see the max spins go to 2 in a bronze competition program. I honestly won't bother competing. Skating would not be fun anymore.
This would bring it in line with the lower standard track levels, though
Quote from: techskater on April 09, 2012, 07:57:02 PM
This would bring it in line with the lower standard track levels, though
True, except that don't we already get like an extra 20s compared to those levels?
I'm on the fence with this one.. on one hand I kind of like the idea that I can rearrange the end of what feels now like a very very rushed test program (I am pretty sure I won't be testing it until after the changes go into effect). On the other hand, I don't think limiting to only 2 spins for competition is fair either... if you have the time/ability to do 3, I think you should be allowed to.
I don't like the change on the Bronze WBP. I am a good spinner and okay to mediocre jumper. It feels unfairly weighted to the jumpers, but that is just mho. I did do only 2 spins in one competition (USFS Bronze) I came in last of 6 (everyone else did 3). I really think if they leave it in you really have to do max spins and jumps sequences/combos to win.
Probably what they are going for is space for more choregraphy - spins do take up more time. My ISI Bronze program is 2:08 and I have 3 spins and 4 jumping passes (gave up 1 jump for the spin) - 1 single salchow, 1 - 2 jump combo, 2 - 3 jump sequences. I also have a spiral in there, bauer, and a gliding maneuver that I don't think has a name. It's pushing it to get it all in there and I've got a whole extra 18 seconds vs USFS's 1:50 max.
I think I would be fine with the Silver FS test as it is. I have a loop and flip. I have a pretty good attitude spin. The combo spin might do me in right now. Luckily, I've got plenty of time to practice it due to Silver Moves. ::>) I reallly do wish they would break up that test into 2 parts. It's just too darn long.
Quote from: sarahspins on April 09, 2012, 08:19:57 PM
True, except that don't we already get like an extra 20s compared to those levels?
I'm on the fence with this one.. on one hand I kind of like the idea that I can rearrange the end of what feels now like a very very rushed test program (I am pretty sure I won't be testing it until after the changes go into effect). On the other hand, I don't think limiting to only 2 spins for competition is fair either... if you have the time/ability to do 3, I think you should be allowed to.
I am thining more like Prejuv (Silver length equivalent) which is 2:00 +/- 10. FWIW, Pre-pre and Prelim are 1:30 +/- 10 and most kids skate the full 1:40, so it's 10 seconds longer in Bronze, but many (not all) Bronzes skate slower than the mid-level and top end Pre-pre and Prelim kids, so that makes sense.