Studying one's own skating on video is an excellent learning tool after overcoming the initial mental shock -- is THAT me? :sweat For jumps and spins it's often OK to just put the camera on the boards, however it's more difficult to effectively tape oneself while covering the whole ice: program, MITF, dance patterns, bigger jump setup etc. Assuming the rink allows video taping, what options are there to tape skater's own practices without bothering skating friends all the time?
I read about a vague mention of using baby video monitors, the skater wears the wireless receiver and the camera will follow. Can anyone comment whether this is feasible? (receiving range, filming angle, etc.)
Some rinks have security monitors in the rink area. Try asking if you can retrieve the footage from a given session.
Quote from: FigureSpins on March 08, 2012, 12:02:49 PM
Some rinks have security monitors in the rink area. Try asking if you can retrieve the footage from a given session.
Thank you, our rink does not have it. I was wondering if people put cameras on the boards (or somewhere else) to cover the entire rink the whole time. I've never done that as it feels too far away to effectively analyze technique, does it work for people? Is it even possible to have the camera follow the skater automatically? ;)
Get a friend to help? :)
Quote from: nicklaszlo on March 08, 2012, 09:45:44 PM
Maybe I can do it Sunday.
Lol I have really friendly skating buddies who would tape me whenever ask (including you, thank you for the offer!!), but I'm conscious that this wastes their precious ice time.
am I daydreaming in asking the camera to follow the skater on its own? :) :)
Quote from: jjane45 on March 08, 2012, 10:06:17 PM
Lol I have really friendly skating buddies who would tape me whenever ask (thank you for the offer!!), but I'm conscious that this wastes their precious ice time.
Honestly, don't worry about it - if they really don't have time, they'd just say no :)
I've filmed people and I don't mind doing it at all - really it only takes a few minutes, it's not like you'd be asking someone to film you for a the whole session. I've never asked to be filmed (coach always does it when I don't want her to, plus I have my own suction cup mount for my video camera I can stick anywhere I want), but if I really wanted to, I wouldn't hesitate to ask any of the people I regularly skate with.
It's like asking rides for daily grocery shopping vs driving oneself around wherever needed, hehe.
Quote from: jjane45 on March 08, 2012, 10:06:17 PM
I'm conscious that this wastes their precious ice time.
If we did it during the first few minutes of the freestyle session, I could film from off-ice. I wasn't planning on skating that session anyway.
I take our GoPro and put it on the boards. It's a wide angle lens so you can really get sweeping views of the rink. For instance, here's a video I made with the GoPro with it resting on the far end of the rink. Look at how much of the ice you can actually see! If I were to place it in the middle of the oval, I probably would capture most of the rink.
(Btw, I'm wearing the Ribcap you asked me about in the video...)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vYg_Ic1Ms0w&feature=player_embedded
I use my Ipad, that I lean on the plexiglass around the boards. I take it with me when I work on specific issues that I want to correct, so most of the time I do not need a lot of space.
For my silver moves I put it at the end on the right or the left side,long-wise, depending on what I was working. 8 step mohawk was tricky, I got most, but not all of it on.
The ipad is nice because the screen is so big, it is an excellent immediate feedback tool. Plus the forward facing camera lets you see exactly the limits of coverage when you are positioning it.
A word of caution for anyone recording themselves with a camera on the boards...BEWARE OF BEGINNER SKATERS WHO CLING TO THE BOARDS! I had my GoPro on the side and along comes a guy who slams right into the area where my camera was to stop himself and the device was knocked off the boards and crashed onto the ice. The back of the camera and battery came out and scattered. Fortunately, everything fit back together and the camera still works. But now I watch my camera location like a hawk and if I see a newbie clinging to the sides, I skate over and rescue my camera before it is doomed.
Beware also of rink rules and/or of annoyed skaters. Many public rinks forbid you to tape other individuals (in some places, I've seen taping prohibited completely in any form) due to privacy concerns; if you are using a wide-angle or full coverage type setup, you are capturing other skaters, which is a no-no from the rules perspective.
This has become more enforced due to the prevalence of YouTube and like internet services; people are posting videos of themselves, and, in the process, posting pictures/videos of other individuals. Some people simply do not want to be videoed and they have some fairly good legal backing in most jurisdictions to require you to refrain from doing so.
Just looked up our policies and there seems to be no problem. So good to live in a free state.
It's a rink policy, as the poster stated, not a state law.
There are skating, aquatics, gymnastics and dance facilities that have the same policy against videorecording. Some rinks won't even let you record if you're the only person being recorded. As a side effect, most entry forms for special events include a media clause that allows them to publish images and video of the entrant.
Just FYI: some clubs won't allow videorecording during tests and/or competitions. It's pretty common at competitions where a professional videographer has been hired to capture the action. The video company usually asks for the ban to prevent personal videorecording from taking business away from the pro's offerings.
Quote from: Isk8NYC on March 10, 2012, 10:00:59 PM
It's a rink policy, as the poster stated, not a state law.
There are skating, aquatics, gymnastics and dance facilities that have the same policy against videorecording. Some rinks won't even let you record if you're the only person being recorded.
Just FYI: some clubs won't allow videorecording during tests and/or competitions. It's pretty common at competitions where a professional videographer has been hired to capture the action. The video company usually asks for the ban to prevent personal videorecording from taking business away from the pro's offerings.
In Canada, the policy in videoing at comps and taking pictures of anyone other than one's own skater is a Skate Canada policy; it applies regardless of the presence of a photographer or videographer. It is a privacy issue. You are also not allowed to use cameras on tripods or with long lenses. Ummm.... Some creepy people are known to video or take pics of little and not so little girls and boys. Our kid was videoed not by a creep but by a socalled talent scout hired by a coach looking for skaters that fit a certain profile. Security guards solved that.
Okay, but it's still just an organizational policy, not a government-required law.
FYI: the OP is in the US, not in Canada. Utah is no more free from this restriction than a rink in any of the other states. There is no law on the books against taking videos at public sessions, afaik.
Most skating programs and sessions in Canada are run by the skating organizations, which is why they comply with Skate Canada's restrictions. In the US, rinks run the majority of public and freestyle sessions, so the USFSA and ISI cannot impose those restrictions. Rinks also deal with USA Hockey and US Speedskating, who might have their own rules about videorecording. Most LTS programs today are also rink-run, which is why the ban on recording is being imposed by the rink. That's the key: parents of skaters complain to the rink management that they don't want their kids being recorded in the background. It's not that the club is asking for the ban on behalf of US Figure Skating; their own customers are making the request and as we all know, the customer is always right.
There were several parents in my oldest DD's class who refused to sign video/photo releases for sports teams because of their own reasons. (In one case, the husband was a high-ranking law enforcement officer and they were concerned about organized crime retaliation.)
There are some US clubs that still have the membership and assets to own their rink/rent ice time and run it as they see fit, but those are few and far between now. It was the model before the 1960's, but times have changed now.
Quote from: Isk8NYC on March 10, 2012, 10:00:59 PM
It's a rink policy, as the poster stated, not a state law.
I was referring to our rink policy. And that it's good to live in a state where people aren't so uptight about everything.
People aren't "uptight" just because they want to protect their/their kids' privacy, especially in situations where they could be in danger if they are identified publicly.
I've seen many videos on YouTube where the comments included nasty remarks about the other people on the ice or even posted kids' full names and the rink location. Teens don't realize that they give out their information to the world when they post on the internet. I've seen some really stupid stuff on open Facebook accounts where people tag each other with waaay too much info.
IMHO, people can be pretty uptight about a lot of things. But we don't need to hijack the thread.
I really enjoy the discussion on filming and privacy, truly deserves its own thread IMO.
At my rink more and more coaches use phone / tablet / laptop (!!) to film students during lesson on freestyle ice, I am quite curious what options do coaches have when the rink / federation has imposed some form of limitation.
I'm getting a tripod to put the camera in the stands / benches. There is no other way to film a dance session :S
Would this link get anyone closer to answering the original question?
http://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/7270/making-a-camera-follow-me
Quote from: Isk8NYC on March 10, 2012, 10:00:59 PM
It's a rink policy, as the poster stated, not a state law.
There are skating, aquatics, gymnastics and dance facilities that have the same policy against videorecording. Some rinks won't even let you record if you're the only person being recorded. As a side effect, most entry forms for special events include a media clause that allows them to publish images and video of the entrant.
Just FYI: some clubs won't allow videorecording during tests and/or competitions. It's pretty common at competitions where a professional videographer has been hired to capture the action. The video company usually asks for the ban to prevent personal videorecording from taking business away from the pro's offerings.
In my state (Delaware) if the area has public access (i.e. public skate), then there isn't any restriction unless the rink restricts it further. Our Club sessions are private access so you must have the skaters permission, and posting online gets dicey when the person is under-age. We haven't had any problems with taping each other's skating, it is a very useful tool. I have also propped a camera up against the boards, but again, have to watch it like a hawk so it doesn't get knocked down or blocked by skaters standing in front of the lens when I'm trying to do something ???
http://www.swivl.com/features/
What a shame the range is only 33 feet (10m)
http://www.instructables.com/id/Face-detection-and-tracking-with-Arduino-and-OpenC/
Beyond my ability to comprehend but so neat. Can't decide if I'd laugh or freak out if something like this is taping a skating session!
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-aJrEIvXi3Ys/T4nf0QtUKuI/AAAAAAAAALA/5j2MPKYurYk/s320/facetrackcam+%25284%2529.JPG)
Oh shush, arduino isn't that hard to program (if I've done it, anyone can...) :P
That said, I doubt that the range would be any better than the other link you made... mostly because it's meant for use with a webcam up close, not potentially a few hundred feet away.
I think the easier/cheaper way may be just to hire someone (who's not skating) to record you while you skate :)
Well, I'd feel uncomfortable asking anyone, even if paid, to film the rink for 60 minutes!
I don't know what is so difficult in the range thing. Folks at arduino forums hinted that currently there is no economic / simple way of handling tracking with arduino + openCV even without considering range.
Was originally thinking a good webcam, servo, and computer running real time video analysis to follow the emitter on skater would do. Guess I am still asking too much.
Anyways, got my tripod at least :)
I am really lucky to skate at a rink where I am often the only skater or one of a handful during the times I skate. I tape nearly every practice unless it's too crowded. I use my iPhone. I prop it up on the boards in the corner and sometimes put my puffy coat on the ice below, just in case someone slams into the wall and it shakes loose and falls to the ice. My rink has no current policy against this. I did skate at another rink recently and I got scolded for doing that.... I have seen many videos of people skating when the camera is following them around. Unless it's a professional camera operator they are usually dizzying to watch. I would rather see it from far away. Just my opinion.
I climbed up all the way to the top of the stands, extremely close to the ceiling, and still cannot capture the whole rink with camera from the corner!!
What a bummer... I should have checked. Time to find something else...
Related thread: Wide angle video recording? (http://skatingforums.com/index.php/topic,3697.msg37577.html#msg37577)
Quote from: slcbelle on March 09, 2012, 08:47:35 PM
I take our GoPro and put it on the boards. It's a wide angle lens so you can really get sweeping views of the rink. For instance, here's a video I made with the GoPro with it resting on the far end of the rink. Look at how much of the ice you can actually see! If I were to place it in the middle of the oval, I probably would capture most of the rink.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vYg_Ic1Ms0w/
Do you remember if it was filmed at 127 angle or 170? Ideally I'd like to put the camera inside hockey box yet still catch the whole rink. Evil dance patterns go all the way to the boards and corners, sigh.
Thanx in advance ;)
It was filmed at 127 degrees since I'm recording in 1080p resolution. If I dropped the resolution down to 960p or 720p the field of view would increase to 170 degrees.
Quote from: slcbelle on July 04, 2012, 12:40:11 PM
It was filmed at 127 degrees since I'm recording in 1080p resolution. If I dropped the resolution down to 960p or 720p the field of view would increase to 170 degrees.
Thank you very much! When you next visit the rink, would you mind experimenting on what it takes to capture the whole rink surface? Pretty please? ;)
Quote from: jjane45 on July 04, 2012, 12:46:04 PM
Thank you very much! When you next visit the rink, would you mind experimenting on what it takes to capture the who rink surface? Pretty please? ;)
I'm eating a bowl of cereal right now and heading out in 10 minutes. I'll post experiments for you!
OK, jjane45! Here you are. 127 and 170 degrees FOV.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kfV9c9gLsA&feature=channel&list=UL
Quote from: slcbelle on July 04, 2012, 06:57:04 PM
OK, jjane45! Here you are. 127 and 170 degrees FOV.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kfV9c9gLsA/
You are awesome!! OK it seems like even with an HD+ camcorder with crazy wild ultra wide lens, it's pretty difficult to cover the whole ice and make it productive... Sigh, I'll see what I could make out of it!!
THANK YOU SO MUCH AGAIN <3 <3
Quote from: jjane45 on July 04, 2012, 10:46:21 PM
You are awesome!! OK it seems like even with an HD+ camcorder with crazy wild ultra wide lens, it's pretty difficult to cover the whole ice and make it productive... Sigh, I'll see what I could make out of it!!
THANK YOU SO MUCH AGAIN <3 <3
If I had put it more at an angle towards the ends, you probably would capture everything. Want me to try that tomorrow? OK! I will! ;D
That's so nice of you! you filmed the video from the boards right? Would you mind also going into the stands, facing the center of the rink, see at what point will it cover both ends of the rink?
I speculate I'll need to setup the camcorder in the stands with tripod, just hoping there is no need to climb to the ceiling... And wondering how big will the skaters be!
Thank you a million! :)
Quote from: jjane45 on July 05, 2012, 08:52:48 AM
That's so nice of you! you filmed the video from the boards right? Would you mind also going into the stands, facing the center of the rink, see at what point will it cover both ends of the rink?
I speculate I'll need to setup the camcorder in the stands with tripod, just hoping there is no need to climb to the ceiling... And wondering how big will the skaters be!
Thank you a million! :)
Sure. I'm going today. But, would you really want to leave a $200+ camera all alone in the stands for someone to potentially steal? I think I can get the entire sheet if I place it somewhere between the center line and the rounded end. Do you need the video to be completely centered on the rink? Or, are you just trying to capture the entire sheet regardless of angle? Let me know and I'll tinker.
I'd love to see both if all possible... :blush: From the center for a balanced view, and from a corner for maximum coverage. And yes, whichever angle that captures the most ice.
And please do not leave the $$$ camera unattended :)
Quote from: jjane45 on July 05, 2012, 09:55:22 AM
I'd love to see both if all possible... :blush: From the center for a balanced view, and from a corner for maximum coverage. And yes, whichever angle that captures the most ice.
And please do not leave the $$$ camera unattended :)
I didn't record today because it was really foggy on the ice. We FINALLY got some rain and it was if the moisture made it looks like there was dry ice everywhere. Not ideal for you to see the rink. I'll try tomorrow.
Alrighty...here is video from the bleachers at 170 and 127 FOV for you!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IQPnwcEmDqI&feature=g-upl
Would you mind doing one more? What is the coverage like from a rink corner?
Quote from: slcbelle on July 06, 2012, 05:07:35 PM
Alrighty...here is video from the bleachers at 170 and 127 FOV for you!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IQPnwcEmDqI/
You are my hero! The 170 view fits my needs perfectly. How far up did you go in the bleachers? thank you a ton again ;-)
Quote from: jjane45 on July 06, 2012, 07:43:02 PM
You are my hero! The 170 view fits my needs perfectly. How far up did you go in the bleachers? thank you a ton again ;-)
You're welcome! My pleasure. Halfway up the bleachers. I wanted to clear the plexiglass.
OK this is the first test using Vado HD2 and a generic fisheye lens. What do you think?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FjG9pvC_jtM/
Quote from: jjane45 on July 17, 2012, 10:52:22 AM
OK this is the first test using Vado HD2 and a generic fisheye lens. What do you think?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FjG9pvC_jtM/
You certainly can see the whole rink! Is that enough detail for you?
Well, for the price of it (total $55 including tripod) I am fairly satisfied. At this point all I need to see is the position of my arms and legs, as I lose track of them lol.
Quote from: jjane45 on July 17, 2012, 03:46:45 PM
Well, for the price of it (total $55 including tripod) I am fairly satisfied. At this point all I need to see is the position of my arms and legs, as I lose track of them lol.
Seems like you are good to go! :WS:
Quote from: slcbelle on July 17, 2012, 05:21:46 PM
Seems like you are good to go! :WS:
I think I am!! Thank you slcbelle for all your help <3
Posted some practice vids in the video vault, and I am shocked that our amazing forum members actually see much more than I ever imagined from a faraway angle.
Now the only thing to test is how well it can capture program music from where it stands, will report back after my next outing :)
I just saw this and thought a few of you might find it interesting. It's supposed to follow your every move and you can record with your iPhone or android.
http://photojojo.com/store/awesomeness/iphone-swivl/
Quote from: davincisoprano1 on July 23, 2012, 05:33:24 PM
I just saw this and thought a few of you might find it interesting. It's supposed to follow your every move and you can record with your iPhone or android.
http://photojojo.com/store/awesomeness/iphone-swivl/
Thanks! Somehow missed this. The problem with it and other motion tracking devices is the limited sensor range of 10 meters or so.
Here is another sample video (http://youtu.be/cJh4CJGrPtI/) taken from the boards with fisheye lens. (solo practice of cha cha and fiesta tango) It's from a corner of the rink because for dance practice I need to see end patterns the most, still captures the whole rink with the other end being extra small. :)