skatingforums
On the Ice => Sitting on the Boards Rink Side => Topic started by: sampaguita on August 12, 2011, 10:35:59 AM
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How common is this in the child/adult skating world?
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I haven't really seen that. A skater can't really do the tricks well if they have poor basics. Skaters I've seen with poor stroking and edges also have poor quality jumps and spins. When they've gone back to work on their basic skating skills, the tricks have also improved.
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Common here, though it tends more towards nice jumps relative to the skater's level, terrible everything else. Since many of our adults do not jump, it does not apply to them.
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Ha the tricks vs basics dilemma, I'm curious too. Turns are more likely associated with basics though.
Coach has pointed out my basic skills are not on par with tricks, which was surprising because I thought both are bad, but if I have to pick one, jumps are worse than basics. Later turns out he specifically referred to my posture and free leg position during turns and moves.
Some skaters with limited resources get their fundamentals from group lessons, and start small privates around lutz / axel to focus on harder tricks. In this case it's difficult to develop beautiful basic skills unless the skater competes USFS and needs to pass MITF tests.
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There seem to be lots of skaters around here who can do higher level jumps and spins but have terrible basics. They dont have great turns though.
However, when you start picking apart their tricks, you see those too have holes in them.
I just find it embarassing for someone with 3 doubles to be toe picking their way around the rink when doing laps.
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I've noticed that a lot at my rink this summer. A lot of the girls have been there practicing every day and while we are all the same level, they're suddenly doing camels and laybacks and a bunch of huge jumps that look impressive at first, but the more you watch them you realize it's really sloppy, and then you watch them even more and notice everything about their skating is sloppy because their coach is pushing them into new things when the other stuff isn't ready yet.
The great thing about coming back to skating as an adult is I appreciate the basics more. I have strong edges and elements, have passed my pre-bronze and bronze moves with above average scores and really work hard to make sure all my silver elements are strong, because honestly, you can have an impressive jump but if the footwork is crud then you're not going to look as awesome out there. :)
I've also noticed these girls are getting some sort of superiority complexes on the ice, not looking out for people when doing things.... funny enough these girls all train with the same coach who also has a bit of a superiority complex. Oh well. :)
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My dd has great jumps and spins, but the footwork needs additional help. IMHO, without a huge focus on figures, it's not unusual. Dd has extra work with moves - she will be doing pre-juv moves in the field and it's work getting it nice for testing!
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Please do not call freestyle elements "tricks".
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Sorry, didn't mean to offend. One of my daughter's former coaches, a former Olympian, used to use that term, so I didn't think it was derogatory. The point remains the same, though - he used to say that in order to do the "big tricks", you had to have the skating skills to back them up.
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Please do not call freestyle elements "tricks".
I think the term is appropriate in this situation. The skaters who can do good spins and get all the way around on jumps without having good entries and in between skating skills are doing tricks, not elements. You see them at freestyles - spin, jump, jump, spin, stroking with their heads down, hands in pockets, and crappy crossovers. Their landings are short and they have to turn around because they can't control them. They tick off each element as mastered as soon as they feel that's it's "good enough." Therefore, they're not performing elements, they're doing tricks!
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My DD's coach complained the same thing about my DD. He said her spins and jumps are way better than her skating skill. He spends a lot of time to improve her basic skills though. He makes her practice everyday for 30 minutes on basic only.
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My DD's coach complained the same thing about my DD. He said her spins and jumps are way better than her skating skill. He spends a lot of time to improve her basic skills though. He makes her practice everyday for 30 minutes on basic only.
Same here - most of the lesson is on skating vs jumps and spins now. I think it's totally normal - everyone grows in cycles. At one time spins were really hard for dd so that is what she focused on. Then she had the axel - that took a lot of the focus. Now she is focusing on the skating. I think it would be harder for a kid to focus on everything all of the time.
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Sorry, didn't mean to offend. One of my daughter's former coaches, a former Olympian, used to use that term, so I didn't think it was derogatory. The point remains the same, though - he used to say that in order to do the "big tricks", you had to have the skating skills to back them up.
My Coach uses the term "tricks" without meaning to offend either and I do not have problem with it. I am also thinking gliding maneuvers fall under this category so it's not just spins and jumps. More direct and descriptive, I imagine children will understand "tricks" better than "freestyle elements"? :)
Anyways, there is a delicate balance between 1) achieving as much as possible in freestyle elements and 2) obtaining decent basics to back up the freestyle elements.
He spends a lot of time to improve her basic skills though. He makes her practice everyday for 30 minutes on basic only.
Would you mind sharing what specifically does coach make your daughter work on?
It took a while to convince Coach that I want to work on my weak basics instead of solely focusing on test requirements for FS level. He has excellent figures background so everything works out perfectly.
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Our rink it's very common for the kids to have high-level tricks but poor basics. This is especially true of spins; less applicable to jumps - they'll tend to be "flingy" and uncontrolled. The adults are often reversed - their basics generally seem to be much better than their elements. Maybe it's because adult starters have to work so much harder to get going in the first place - we often can't just "fling and pray"? :D
Re "tricks" vs "freestyle elements": I agree with Clarice, FigureSpins and jjane. My current coach (also a former Olympian) calls freeskate jumps and spins "tricks", and not in a derogatory way - even Olympic gold medalists' elements are "tricks".
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How do we define basic skating skills anyways? Do they include moves in the field, gliding maneuvers, or advanced turns by any chance?
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How do we define basic skating skills anyways? Do they include moves in the field, gliding maneuvers, or advanced turns by any chance?
I always thought it was anything that wasn't a jump or a spin.
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I agree with Agnes. I thought it was stroking, crossovers, and edge quality. This can carry over to everything else though, as everyone knows.
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How do we define basic skating skills anyways? Do they include moves in the field, gliding maneuvers, or advanced turns by any chance?
Seems odd to include advanced turns in "basic" skating skills. But I think being able to do advanced turns relies on having strong basics.
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Seems odd to include advanced turns in "basic" skating skills. But I think being able to do advanced turns relies on having strong basics.
In this context, I define the word "basic" as meaning "fundamental" rather than low-level. So I agree with those who say those skills include stroking, crossovers, edging, and turns. It's pretty much all the stuff tested in Moves in the Field.
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In this context, I define the word "basic" as meaning "fundamental" rather than low-level. So I agree with those who say those skills include stroking, crossovers, edging, and turns. It's pretty much all the stuff tested in Moves in the Field.
I was told that MIF was created because once figures went away programs became skate-skate-jump-skate-skate-jump. MIF was introduced to bring back flow, carriage, and edges. You see this lack of fundamental skating skills to a degree in some men's programs; the focus in so much on the jumps that the actual program is little more than some arm waving, butt shaking, 3 turn and a jump, over and over again. booorinnng
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How do we define basic skating skills anyways? Do they include moves in the field, gliding maneuvers, or advanced turns by any chance?
Let me rephrase the question... Does basic skating skills plus freestyle elements cover everything in figure skating (including ice dance)?
Coach has pointed out my basic skills are not on par with tricks, which was surprising because I thought both are bad, but if I have to pick one, jumps are worse than basics. Later turns out he specifically referred to my posture and free leg position during turns and moves.
After giving it more thoughts, I now interpret my Coach's statement as "basics not living up to the LEVEL where the FS elements belong".
For example, since I started working on lutzes and axel drills, my Coach anticipates the basics are also reaching ISI FS5 level. The current quality of my jumps and spins are not necessarily relevant, he measures the quality of basics against a set expectation for FS5 level skater.
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After giving it more thoughts, I now interpret my Coach's statement as "basics not living up to the LEVEL where the FS elements belong".
I never thought of it that way until now, but I will now!
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Jjane, that's actually a good way to describe it as you can't expect someone working on an Axel to skate like Carolina Kostner from a speed and flow standpoint.
I unfortunately see a lot of high level element attemps with poor basic skating skills. By attempts, I also mean that many of the skaters are severely under-rotating the jump or have some strange technique that "helps" them do the element (like the reverse wind up for the loop/2loop or the hammer toe on the flip/Lutz). Some of these skaters are being told they "have" jumps by coaches who are continuing to push them to more difficult elements ("now that you "have" a 2F and a 2Lz, let's start on the 2A) and additional lessons. 88)
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There seem to be lots of skaters around here who can do higher level jumps and spins but have terrible basics. They dont have great turns though.
However, when you start picking apart their tricks, you see those too have holes in them.
I just find it embarassing for someone with 3 doubles to be toe picking their way around the rink when doing laps.
Yep... I see kids that can jump, but they cannot skate. And yes, with every moves test, I feel like everything about my dd's skating, tricks and basics have improved.
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I was told that MIF was created because once figures went away programs became skate-skate-jump-skate-skate-jump. MIF was introduced to bring back flow, carriage, and edges. You see this lack of fundamental skating skills to a degree in some men's programs; the focus in so much on the jumps that the actual program is little more than some arm waving, butt shaking, 3 turn and a jump, over and over again. booorinnng
And honestly, I like the changes made recently making the moves harder... I am glad my dd only got to Juv moves before the changes...she had to really work at the intermediate and I think it is showing in her skating overall, including the 'tricks'.
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My Coach uses the term "tricks" without meaning to offend either and I do not have problem with it. I am also thinking gliding maneuvers fall under this category so it's not just spins and jumps. More direct and descriptive, I imagine children will understand "tricks" better than "freestyle elements"? :)
Anyways, there is a delicate balance between 1) achieving as much as possible in freestyle elements and 2) obtaining decent basics to back up the freestyle elements.
Would you mind sharing what specifically does coach make your daughter work on?
It took a while to convince Coach that I want to work on my weak basics instead of solely focusing on test requirements for FS level. He has excellent figures background so everything works out perfectly.
He asked her to do following exercises prior to do jumps, spins, program and moves test. He is a good coach but my daughter does not like this part at all. Her skating skill is not a reflection of his teaching at all. He tried to correct her all the times even when she was not in the lesson with him.
1. Russian stroke (3 times around the rinks)
2. Forward crossover, backward crossover.
3. Cross rolls (forward/backward)
4 Power pulls (Forward/backward)
5. 3 turns (forward/backward)
6. Mohawk turns
7. Choctaw
8. Twizzle
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He asked her to do following exercises prior to do jumps, spins, program and moves test. He is a good coach but my daughter does not like this part at all. Her skating skill is not a reflection of his teaching at all. He tried to correct her all the times even when she was not in the lesson with him.
1. Russian stroke (3 times around the rinks)
2. Forward crossover, backward crossover.
3. Cross rolls (forward/backward)
4 Power pulls (Forward/backward)
5. 3 turns (forward/backward)
6. Mohawk turns
7. Choctaw
8. Twizzle
This is a typical set of warm-up exercises that every skater should do every time s/he gets on the ice. It is like practicing scales on a musical instrument -- not so much fun, but so necessary to develop smooth, strong skating. She'll dislike them less as she improves on them.
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Typically when the skater is pronounced good enough at that set, some get swapped for different exercises or the exercises get expanded upon.
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Typically when the skater is pronounced good enough at that set, some get swapped for different exercises or the exercises get expanded upon.
Yep! Just when you thought you were getting pretty good, the coach always ups the ante!!
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First, let's not get bent out of shape by calling it tricks vs elements. It is really not a big deal. There is more to worry about than that kind of stuff. Second, I see every time I skate some kid that can do an axel or working on doubles but can barely skate or couldn't pass pre-preliminary moves. The coaches and parents now want kids that can do these "tricks" for the sheer factor of saying little Betsy is working on doubles and only been skating a year. I come from old school skating where you must be doing basic stuff well before working on the next hardest thing. Not doing basics well can also lead to injury down the road because lack of control in spins and jumps or footwork.
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First, let's not get bent out of shape by calling it tricks vs elements. It is really not a big deal. There is more to worry about than that kind of stuff. Second, I see every time I skate some kid that can do an axel or working on doubles but can barely skate or couldn't pass pre-preliminary moves. The coaches and parents now want kids that can do these "tricks" for the sheer factor of saying little Betsy is working on doubles and only been skating a year. I come from old school skating where you must be doing basic stuff well before working on the next hardest thing. Not doing basics well can also lead to injury down the road because lack of control in spins and jumps or footwork.
I see it alot in kids that start in the age 11,12 ish range.They dont understand that the skaters that started younger spent years working on the boring stuff.They just see the jumps and tricks as all there is to skating.They seem to be the ones that end up stopping sooner.
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He asked her to do following exercises...
1. Russian stroke (3 times around the rinks)
2. Forward crossover, backward crossover.
3. Cross rolls (forward/backward)
4 Power pulls (Forward/backward)
5. 3 turns (forward/backward)
6. Mohawk turns
7. Choctaw
8. Twizzle
Thanks for sharing. I agree with MadMac that it's a set of good warm up routine that skaters should do for every session.
The "prescription" I got from Coach was edges, lots of edges with the correct free leg position and extension. At one point he said "spend 20 minutes on edges every time you skate, 5 minutes each for FO / FI / BO / BI". I probably never did the whole 20 minutes, but have since paid much more attention to edges.
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1. Russian stroke (3 times around the rinks)
2. Forward crossover, backward crossover.
3. Cross rolls (forward/backward)
4 Power pulls (Forward/backward)
5. 3 turns (forward/backward)
6. Mohawk turns
7. Choctaw
8. Twizzle
I'm so slow that by the time I did all that the session would likely be over :P :D Seriously, that's a good set of warmup exercises. I'm going to print it off and take it with me tomorrow.
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I'm so slow that by the time I did all that the session would likely be over :P :D Seriously, that's a good set of warmup exercises. I'm going to print it off and take it with me tomorrow.
This sounds a lot like what I see my dd doing when she first gets on the ice-- one of her coaches is Russian
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Also a good set of stroking for cool-down. Stroking/edge drills should be done at both "ends" of the session.
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Also a good set of stroking for cool-down. Stroking/edge drills should be done at both "ends" of the session.
You mean I have to do all that *twice*?? That's definitely going to take the whole session! (On the other hand, my basics would improve...)
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Yep! Just when you thought you were getting pretty good, the coach always ups the ante!!
Yep, my one coach has "levels" to his exercises. Currently at L3 on some, L4 on others, and even his top level, L5 on one or two. His start with some that appear deceptively easy and work their way up. A friend came out after I had been skating with him for about a year and he had me demonstrate L1 and L2 of his stroking exercises. She thought they were easy... until she tried them. :)
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They're not "tricks," they're ILLUSIONS </end Arrested Development reference>
I see LOTS of this. Lots of little whippy jumps and hunched over stroking that looks effortful. yeah, it's great when a skater has all his/her doubles, but when you can see the effort of pushing across the ice and hear SCRATCH SCRATCH SCRATCH it's just not as much fun to watch.
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You mean illusions or delusions?
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I see the discrepancy most in competitions where USFS and ISI skaters compete together. In general (and yes, I know this is a vast generalization and has no basis other than my own observation and opinion), the ISI skaters seem to have weaker basics outside of the elements on their tests than the USFS skaters. For example, when the ISI test requires a pattern containing 3 turns, the three turns within the pattern will be okay the 3 turns in the program setting up for a jup, say, will be scratchy and uncontrolled. I have to say, too, that I've never seen the ISI coaches at my rink spending a lot of time on basics like stroking and turns beyond what's required on the test the skater is working on. Whereas, the USFS coaches generally begin each lesson with plain stroking, forward and backward and then with whatever edges and turns the skaters is working on before getting to the "fun stuff." I think IJS's PCS scores have pushed coaches into putting more emphasis on cleaning up edges and turns.
I know one of the few complements I get on my skating is that I have strong edges and good flow, both of which I put down to having done decades of figures when I first started skating. Even with MIF, I don't see skaters and coaches putting close to the same effort into perfecting those skills now, but (again in general) I see the USFS skaters working them much more than the ISI ones.
Also, if you want an example of of a high-level skater who (IMO) epitomized the strong tricks/weak skills model, look at early Surya Bonaly. Her background in tumbling and acrobatics gave her very athletic jumps and spins but the girl couldn't stroke to save her life. The most common criticism I heard from judges at the time was that she had NO edges to speak of, which is probably what kept her from achieving the vistories she (and her mother) thought she deserved based on her jumps. I suspect that if IJS had been in effect during her heyday, she might not even have done as well as she did, primarily because her skating skills were so far below par for the international level.
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Some skaters with limited resources get their fundamentals from group lessons, and start small privates around lutz / axel to focus on harder tricks. In this case it's difficult to develop beautiful basic skills unless the skater competes USFS and needs to pass MITF tests.
I agree, and this was pretty much me.. I sailed through LTS classes and I had all of my singles except for axel when I started taking private lessons (and I think I had tested through FS4 by that point too), and my coach had to pick-apart and make me re-learn EVERY jump. The ones I struggled with the most to get right were the toe loop and waltz jump of all things.. two that should have been the simpler ones. However I had learned them poorly, and while they were passable for lower FS levels, I had to fix all of my singles before I was "allowed" to work on axels by my coach. I do think that extra work paid off - I had my axel (solidly) after only 6 weeks of concentrated effort. Even after I injured my knee about 6 months later.. once I was back on the ice after rehab (9 months later) I actually had it back the first day I tried them (which was several weeks after getting back on the ice).
When I started working more on moves (at about the point where I had my axel), my overall skating improved my leaps and bounds.. in terms of power, confidence, and flow. I actually prefer working on moves right now because I feel like I can more easily see (or rather, feel) the improvements vs working on jumps or spins.
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You mean illusions or delusions?
Ha. Sometimes they ARE delusional. Jo Schmo thinks she can do an axel, but nope. (There was a character on Arrested Development who was a magician, and whenever anyone talked about the "tricks" he did he would defiantly correct them with "they're not tricks, they're illusions.")
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There is a subset of adult skaters that fit this category. They've taken LTS classes and have learned some decent jumps, and either don't take LTS anymore or the schedule doesn't suit them and they're on their own. They skate on the public sessions and stick to the figure skating area in the middle doing little jumps and spins. Basically they're practicing skating in an area that's about 20' x 30'. That doesn't do much for their stroking. Mostly they learn off each other, if someone is taking lessons they share what they've learned. It's not a bad way to do some figure skating but there are a few that do competitions and they're not getting the second mark.
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There is a subset of adult skaters that fit this category. They've taken LTS classes and have learned some decent jumps, and either don't take LTS anymore or the schedule doesn't suit them and they're on their own. They skate on the public sessions and stick to the figure skating area in the middle doing little jumps and spins. Basically they're practicing skating in an area that's about 20' x 30'. That doesn't do much for their stroking. Mostly they learn off each other, if someone is taking lessons they share what they've learned. It's not a bad way to do some figure skating but there are a few that do competitions and they're not getting the second mark.
I just got back from Lake Placid Adult Skate Camp. One of my goals was to rebuild my crossovers. Which I did. Adults that don't have good fundamentals are just like little kids who don't have good fundamentals. They only want to do 'fun/exciting' stuff.
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Adults that don't have good fundamentals are just like little kids who don't have good fundamentals.
Except that the adults will look worse than the kids. Toe-pushing kids look cute but toe-pushing adults look horrible. :(
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Except that the adults will look worse than the kids. Toe-pushing kids look cute but toe-pushing adults look horrible. :(
We'll have to agree to disagree. Toe pushing kids look horrible too--except to their parents.
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I wonder if toe-pushing adults also look good to their parents/children... :D
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I've had students that persisted in toe-pushing because their parents told them that the toepicks are there for that very reason. It took a lot of persistence to get them to change their ways and they still do it when they don't think.
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I wonder if toe-pushing adults also look good to their parents/children... :D
LOL, not. I got busted by my own kids the last time I skated a program and it was one crosscut, and I knew it at the time that I'd walked off the toe. And they wouldn't even tell me my dress was pretty either. Skater kids are the worst critics 88)
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I see lots of young girls passing me up in classes. I've been in FS4 like 15 times already (I have legitimately lost count) and they don't hang around for more than 2-3 sessions. However, the little kids have less mass to lug around, a lower center of gravity, and most importantly a lot less fear than older (read: taller and more adult-shaped) girls and adults, so the young kids can sort of just DO the elements at the various FS class levels, well enough to pass the ISI tests, even though the elements are far from polished. Like so many of you have already observed, the real skating skill - or lack thereof - shows in the quality of moves practice or just general stroking. I, by contrast, have big, powerful crossovers, and maybe look like I'm setting up to do something impressive, then *hop!* a tiny jump materializes. Meh. I often wonder what it would have been like to skate as a kid... :laugh:
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The great thing about coming back to skating as an adult is I appreciate the basics more.
I completely agree. Now that I'm back as an adult skater, I've really focused more on MIF. When I was in high school/college, all I really wanted to work on were the tricks.
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Equipment DOES matter! Since dd got new blades (not the ones that come with skates), her edge work is SO much better. She said it feels incredible and so much easier. So sometimes it's not the skater. :P