skatingforums
On the Ice => The Pro Shop => Topic started by: AlbaNY on September 26, 2022, 04:28:29 PM
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Maybe I can get some discussion going? Both for my questions about a boot order and for fun in general too regarding colour and fancy options you might select.
First of all: I'd love any input on skate tongues you all can come up with, please! I'm curious about leather lined foam and full lambswool.
If anyone has or can find photos of these different types with some wear or has any experience I'd love more information. I'm torn between the options when ordering skates.
Right now I have unlined foam. I do not care for how it can tear a bit, but it has been perfectly comfortable so far.
This made me consider the lined version anticipating better durability, but I saw a brand new pair (online) with this option and did not think it looked as well finished or comfortable as I had imagined. Brand new skates all generally look less comfortable however, and I suppose I shouldn't be so picky about the stitching, (but I'm detail oriented and a seamstress so...)
Lambswool is intriguing, but I can't find many photos or reports. The lambswool section of a 50/50 tongue I have on spares seems nice though. I don't like the 50/50 since it doesn't solve the tearing foam edge situation.
I confirmed that my skates are the double duo bond (highest strength) 3 layer construction that I suspected! Oh my! When I tried less stiff boots recently I did not like it and plan to get the same, but other things I am thinking to opt for now are a double wedge scallop, thinsulate layer, a bit of glitter, and the other big question: leather type and colour.
I've mostly talked myself into pebble white after an initial idea of black or medium grey suede. ;D
I welcome opinions and photos of white pebble if anyone has that or any other suggestion. (White suede sounds like a nightmare, because I picture myself doing a lunge or wiping out on someone's marker lines my first time out, lol.) I figure I better stick with the "traditional" white but thought it would be nice to do something other than the usual smooth finish at least if I'm going all out and getting customs. Has anyone heard of any other leather finish to look into?
Some coaches I see around here have blue, purple, or pink suede. :D Coach Awesome had black suede SP Terries, and I liked the patina. Other than that I've seen the usual smooth black, white, and tan. Harlick has some pretty interesting leathers and designs, but I'm not going bold. ;)
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I've had the soft foam and the smooth foam tongues in various skates over the years. I think the soft foam, which looks like expanded bubbles, was the more comfortable. Both were fine. I've never had all-leather or lambswool. However, Klingbeil used to provide two lambswool pads for the break-in period. (Really cute - heart-shaped, about 5") They felt really good, better than the bunga sleeves or the makeup sponges many people use. YMMV
I'm pretty traditional about skate color - white is the easiest for me, so that's what I use. I had a few pair of tan boots, but it was a PITA to get matching laces - I ended up dyeing white ones myself. If you like bright or colored laces, that's not a problem.
Several of my male skaters chose suede finish skates and they really looked nice because it hid scuffs and dirt. I love the look of black uppers with brown heels/soles.
Some skating friends have opted for the decorative inserts or they've added their own embellishments to their skates. It looks okay - the most-interesting one is a woman who has a flower on her boot ankle. It matches her tattoo in the same spot on her ankle. ;D
Decorations are not my style; I just want skates that fit right, provide the right support and last a little while.
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I think the soft foam, which looks like expanded bubbles, was the more comfortable
Those two are the only types that I've skated in for any length of time, and I'd agree that the soft foam (looking like expanded bubbles) worked better for me. I wonder what the fabric-covered padding in some newer Riedell skates would be like long-term?
To the OP - for grins, check out these Riedell leather customization options...
https://www.ice.riedellskates.com/custom-skates (https://www.ice.riedellskates.com/custom-skates)
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As a seamstress, can you sew and/or glue in different tongue options to your current skates, to try for feel? Maybe with a sewing awl?
I tried on boots that had very comfortable plus luxurious pressure moldable foam tongues, and loved the feel. But most foams break down over time, and might eventually create lace bite - unless you replace them. Good leather can be very durable, if it fits you well (to an extent, it can be spot heat molded), but I'm not sure it will feel as good as a pressure moldable foam.
Optimal material also depends on how much your feet sweat. Closed cell foams don't breath.
Suede shoes or boots often don't quite match and are not completely uniform in color. Moisture and other things can change their color, in spots, and it is harder to clean. I just bought new walking boots. They only ones I found which fit well were dark red suede, and the two boots were a different color shade, which could also be true for your skates. I sprayed them with a silicone waterproofing agent, so they won't leak (not a problem for most skates). It darkened them from red to brown, and now they match, though they they can't breath. (My feet don't sweat much.)
I like the idea that suede hides scuffs. So I would stop using boot covers. But does anyone know if suede is less durable over the long term?
Color is obviously individual choice. Unless you are doing team skating (e.g., with an ice dance or pairs partner, or in a Synchro or production team). Would a bright pure color would clash with clothing/costume and lace colors you like, and do you care?
But honestly, I think good full custom fit boots, fit by the best fitter you can find, like one of the manufacturer's fitters or one they recommend, are more important to your health and performance than color, and would be a better use of your money, if that the choice. Many people find that full custom fit boots work a lot better for them.
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Ooh! Thank you for all the answers! :) :) :)
I don't have time now to properly respond, but I'm going to when I can.
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One coach I know has custom Harlicks in blue suede. I call them her Elvis boots.
I have stock men's Jackson Elites in black suede; purchased in late 2014. I was first hesitant about buying them; but the women's came only in smooth white, and the men's came only in black suede. I called Jackson to voice my concerns over the longevity of suede. They told me not to worry: their suede is actually stronger than their smooth; it's all in the processing. Since leathers and processing vary with the manufacturer, I wouldn't make any generalization: check with your particular manufacturer.
With regard to color irregularities, I've had no issues with my boots. But then again maybe black is black. My wife and daughter have had suede shoes and boots (as well as handbags, belts, and other items) of various colors, however, and have had no issues with color irregularities ... and they are very picky (they also tend to buy higher-end items). So again, I don't think you should generalize from Query's experiences: the devil is in the manufacturing details.
As for my Jackson's, I'm glad I did end up with the suede. One initial advantage with a suede tongue is that the nap holds the laces in place better. With repeated lacing and unlacing, however, the nap starts to wear out. After ~3 yrs of skating (~5 times/week, nearly year round), though, most of the nap was gone from the tongue.
As for the rest of the boot, the suede has been remarkably resistant to scuffs, scrapes, and cuts. After all these years, they are still solidly black; no areas of exposed bare leather as in my previous smooth leather boots (Riedells). By now, most of the nap is gone. I haven't used any suede-specific dyes, polish, or brushes, though, to maintain the finish. Every 3 months, I daub on liquid silicone waterproofer, that's it (I like to avoid aerosol sprays).
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Thank you for the input, FigureSpins.
Mine now have smooth foam, but the spare with 50/50 have what you describe. That's neat about the Klingbeil break-in inserts. I could cut some shearling for that, easy!
A Harlick representative responded to me saying that for the qualities I am seeking they suggest the leather lined foam. (I want the squishing and the tongue shape to be retained as long as possible if I can describe it that way... trying to think of the best way and can't right now 88).)
I'm with you, I love black suede with brown soles, but I'm also 99% on white and wouldn't want to do suede in white. Bummer since it is nice. With smooth leather I like them to look "well loved" or new, but the period between brand new and well loved is awkward. :D
Those decorations are pretty but totally aren't for me skating. Cute about the matching tattoo!
I am going for some glitter in the glaze, but that's as far as I'll go. :laugh:
I find I like the look of white skates with black legging over the heel, so I'm probably content with white now? Otherwise white makes the leg look more stubby and short to me than nice black. :blank:
I'll try to respond to everyone tonight but may run out of time to. It's not personal! ;)
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Bill, wow! Those show personality! :laugh:
I'm not that bold but could be if I had the funds for several pairs. Hah! I like the oil slick kind of finish but maybe in another colour way.
I think the coaches with bold coloured suede have custom Reidells. The purple are for sure anyway.
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Query, that's not a bad idea to try different tongues. I could probably try that with my back up pair at least, but I am really overextended with time and projects right now, and I want the order to happen soon.
Oh boy, I sweat with the foam.
As for suede, Coach Awesome's pair were 20 years old and quite worn but looked far better than some smooth finish skates I've seen that are peeling. I wish I could commit to suede, but then I'd have to choose non-white after talking myself into white. Hmmm. :-\
I wear black bottoms for skating, so black would look great, I thought, but then I found I kind of like the black over the heel legging look with white quite a lot and decided to keep it classic. It would so do black if it wasn't such a big financial commitment.
I would expect due to the small size of boots and custom nature they likely can use the same hide for both boots or two hides if grain properties limit. Mass produced items are a different beast for that.
I'm getting fully custom and have a fitting with their recommended guy next Wednesday. Coach Cheerful mentioned today that the fitter wouldn't be ordering the same double duo bond three layer construction "that's for people doing quads" (omg, I've skated in Harlick's stiffest option since before getting out of basic 3 :o :o :o,) but when I pointed out I was entirely used to that having been in them since the beginning and hated the backup pair's lack of stiffness she kind of nodded and didn't say not to go for that again. I hate change and like what I have now... They'd been used for a year though, so already broken in... uhh... :blank: I need to talk to her again, but I think she was okay with it?
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I hope you :love: your new boots.
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I hope you :love: your new boots.
Thank you! Me too! Too bad it'll be about a year to find out :o 88)
Tstop4me, I agree that suede holds up so nicely. Shoot. This is making me really think again about it and if so what colour. :-\
I wonder if they have a reeallllllly pale grey, kind of like marble, that would look similar to white but not get dingy or stick out too much as not the usual? Greys are my favourite colour ever to wear...
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Grey suede sounds lovely!
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Grey suede sounds lovely!
I agree! I'd really like that after pondering a while, but unfortunately they got back to me saying grey is hard to source and gave me no option for it.
I am waiting for swatches of the white pebble, white suede that they say is grey-ish, and some of their other lighter suedes that they offered to send. I'd select pale grey in a heartbeat at this point but expect I may end up going for the white and hope it doesn't look dirty all the time. (Or get bright marker spots!)
Judging by Instagram videos and photos "bamboo" suede may be a contender too if that is one they send (although I can't believe I'm considering anything on the tan spectrum since I've always avoided browns.) That one seems to have a grey-ish cast to it though.
If I do white suede I am thinking to ask for a contrast back stay in the bamboo shade just to make things a little fancier. I think that could look pretty nice and hopefully not weird? Just the vertical strip on the heel.
I need to find my markers and do a rendering. ;D
In looking at some video from yesterday I noticed that my skates are as white as the ice whereas Ice Flies, Pianos, and the skates of a couple friends have a very yellow cast that I'd like to avoid now that it's on my radar. Silly details, but hey... 88)
If I end up with a pale tan I'm afraid I'd feel like an imposter. Aren't those meant for coaches, show skaters, and professionals? ;)
Oh, since I'm posting... Coach Cheerful and I discussed it, and she okayed me getting their stiffest construction again. Break-in will be something else, I'm afraid, but... I'll get through it?
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The white pebble is pretty, I have seen multiple pairs of white pebble boots and it holds up well.
Just for your consideration...the downside of suede is that you get wear spots if you do a lot of lunges or slides. I had been thinking tan suede but ended up getting tan pebble and it is very forgiving. I wear off the finish on the same spots over and over and I just keep an eye on it and recoat those areas periodically. The pebble texture is smoothed out a bit in those areas, but unless you inspect them closely, you would never know they have had extra wear there.
Harlick has two colors of tan--light and "holiday tan". I chose the lighter tan pebbled leather. Most show skaters or former show skaters choose the holiday tan because it is pretty standard for shows. The plus for the holiday tan is that you can find skate tape that is a near match, but I just like the lighter tan color better. The design on the side of my boots is hidden by my legwarmers a lot of the time, but it's there for me to enjoy. If I need the boots to look plain, I can always wear OTB tights (ugh) or boot covers.
Alba, I would say you are at a point where you are buying very nice boots that you will get rebuilt a few times and your skating is on a great trajectory. Pick a color you like and you won't regret it. You skate well enough now that you can wear whatever color boots you want without having to feel self-conscious about it.
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If I end up with a pale tan I'm afraid I'd feel like an imposter. Aren't those meant for coaches, show skaters, and professionals? ;)
Funny story: I used to coach at a rink where most of the coaches wore tan skates. Most of them had all been performers in ice shows and that's the go-to color because it can be hidden with covers and tape, etc for costuming purposes. So, to fit in, I bought a pair of tan boots. The tan laces were a pita to match - I ended up buying white ones and dyeing them with a concoction of coffee, tea and a little blue food dye to get the right shade.
Then, I started coaching at a new rink. The rental skates were tan and the other coaches wore white or black skates. YMMV
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BTW, many people love boot fits that allow sufficient space behind and in front of the ankle they don't have to bend the boot much, so somewhat stiff boots aren't a problem. I don't know enough about Jackson boot customization to know if you can get that.
I'm curious: does anyone know if brightly colored boots show through light colored boot covers or over-the-boot tights?
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I don't know about brightly-colored boots, but white boots are completely hidden by the basic black lycra boot covers. I've used them on numerous occasions while posing as a gentleman for show programs.
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I really appreciate all the comments and discussion! I think it would be fun to post photos of our skates and tell how old they are to get even more chat going if anyone else thinks that would be fun?
The fitting was yesterday, and I had everything set for the order except the final outer material selection. Today the swatches arrived! So exciting!
I'm going with the crazy stiffness despite the fitter's reservations (he only did one pair that stiff ever, and if I recall correctly the skater ultimately had it re-worked to be less stiff?) I made it through the initial struggle with my current pair, and I think the current feel is worth it... I may regret that, hahaha. Coach Cheerful thinks I can manage, and suede takes the stiffness down a level from what I have with elk leather now.
I went for the leather lined tongue also although it will make the break in even more tough. He had a pair of Risports with that on display, and it was too lovely not to choose. The break in is a temporary struggle for what I hope is years of loveliness after. The fitter said I'll lose a month of skating to the break in, and I can live with that.
So, without the swatches and after a lot of looking online I had decided to go for the white suede with contrast back stay. Today with the swatches this decision became very difficult! I liked the white suede swatch very much, but the white pebble calf was far nicer than I expected too. I found that I did not like bamboo suede quite as much as in photos, but the fried rice suede is very pretty pale tan. Oh, and cameo suede, which I liked in photos of skates, is not a colour I'd ever consider seeing it in person. It reminds me of silly putty. ;)
But... There was a surprise included. They found a pale grey suede after all, and I adore it! I still love the white, but I simply have to go for the grey now that it is available and clearly fated. ;D For prettiness I'm going to do white suede back stay contrast since that idea has stuck with me, along with brass eyelets and such, some crystals along the eyelets, and I guess a light scatter of gold or champagne glitter in the glaze.
(As for blades I'm not sure about staying with my nice and cheap Ultima Aspires. I'll figure that out with Coach Cheerful in about a year. The fitter said I might want to upgrade to Pattern 99 at some point.)
Now I hurry up and wait! ;D
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Sounds like a fun adventure! I'm happy that you found a pale gray suede to set your custom skates apart from others.
BTW, I love Pattern 99s, but they will require time to adapt to them after using your Aspires. If it were me, I'd get the Pattern 99 now before your sole becomes partially "swiss-cheesed" with different mounting holes for the different blades, and you can get to know them while you adapt to the new boots. YMMV, etc.
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I agree, this sounds like fun! I have never seen white suede skates, and am totally curious. Which brand are you going with? I had a good time getting my first custom pair a few years ago. Something to think about- knee bend is super important and really makes a huge difference in skating. I know you're used to a certain stiffness, and I too am used to overbooting, but it really affects knee-bend, which means everything from spin entries to jumps, to all the various turns, along with your edge quality. As an adult skater, I have come to believe in *slightly* underbooting. When I did my customs, I went with (what I thought at the time was) a lower stiffness than I was used too. My skate tech was on board. It turns out to be too stiff. I have never laced the top hook on my boots, and have struggled with the stiffness for the past 6 years. If the day ever comes that I replace these boots, I plan to go down a level.
Details if you're interested- I had been in the Risport Dance- stiffness of 65. I loved the low back, but hated the low sides. The 65 in Risport dance was soft. I got Jackson customs, and went with the 4 hook (freestyle) front, and a dance backstay. I stuck with the 65 since we all thought the higher sides would compensate for the lack of stiffness, and went with a moderately stiff tongue. Plus that's what the Premier is and when I tried it on it had seemed stiff, but break-in-able. (I'm 5"8" and no longer jumping). I've always been hard on my skates and broken things in easily. If I ever replace these, I will get everything exactly the same again, but have a long talk with the Jackson people about stiffness. I tried the old Finesse once upon a time, which were entry level dance boots at 45. I was worried about creasing them in the shop. But now I'm thinking with the 4-hook model it might be OK. But that will be managed with the people at Jackson.
Ultimately, I would hate for you to spend bank on an awesome pair of skates and have them be so stiff they impede your progress. You're doing so well, but I think the boots were new to you, so already broken in by a previous skater, no? Customs are expensive, but oh-so-worth it. And while you want them to last, presumably this won't be your last pair, right?
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Details if you're interested- I had been in the Risport Dance- stiffness of 65. I loved the low back, but hated the low sides. The 65 in Risport dance was soft. I got Jackson customs, and went with the 4 hook (freestyle) front, and a dance backstay. I stuck with the 65 since we all thought the higher sides would compensate for the lack of stiffness, and went with a moderately stiff tongue. Plus that's what the Premier is and when I tried it on it had seemed stiff, but break-in-able. (I'm 5"8" and no longer jumping). I've always been hard on my skates and broken things in easily. If I ever replace these, I will get everything exactly the same again, but have a long talk with the Jackson people about stiffness. I tried the old Finesse once upon a time, which were entry level dance boots at 45. I was worried about creasing them in the shop. But now I'm thinking with the 4-hook model it might be OK. But that will be managed with the people at Jackson.
We've been round the block on this issue many times. There is no industry standard for stiffness. So a Risport 65 is not necessarily equal to a Jackson 65. I couldn't even find any information on how boot stiffness is measured. I also sent email to a couple of boot companies, and got no replies. E.g., even within a single manufacturer, what is the difference between a 40, 60, 80, and 100?
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Bill, thanks! That is a good point about switching sooner. I'm going to ask Coach Cheerful her opinion of when would be okay although I don't look forward to the price tag on this change. Also, I hate change and worry about adapting. Ugh. I just committed to a completion in January too. :P
Loops, I am getting Harlicks since that is what I already have thanks to eBay. ;)
That's a sobering bit of input on stiffness. I of course get told to have more knee(ankle) bend sometimes but did manage to get these boots bending more and more and actually have kind of missed the stiffness when the tongue or something became more... forgiving to knee bend fairly recently. Hmm. The nice thing is that it will only cost me a bit more time if I want to downgrade the stiffness, the fitter said, because they can definitely be sent back to reduce it if I've made a mistake.
I do appreciate the details! I want photos too from people if possible. This is fun. :)
Tstop, it sure would be nice if all the technical details would be made available in a consistent way, wouldn't it.
I'm going to post some photos of my current skates and the swatches soon. Hopefully tonight. The grey reads much darker in photos though, it looks in person like the white looks in photos. The white would be gorgeous, and so would pebble, but I cannot turn down the chance for grey. :)
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We've been round the block on this issue many times. There is no industry standard for stiffness. So a Risport 65 is not necessarily equal to a Jackson 65. I couldn't even find any information on how boot stiffness is measured. I also sent email to a couple of boot companies, and got no replies. E.g., even within a single manufacturer, what is the difference between a 40, 60, 80, and 100?
Yup. I'm one of those who's contributed to the discussions based on this experience. You live and learn. Plus, it wasn't my point to start a discussion on stiffness ratings.
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Bill, thanks! That is a good point about switching sooner. I'm going to ask Coach Cheerful her opinion of when would be okay although I don't look forward to the price tag on this change.
One word of caution. If you switch to P99 on your current boots, I assume you plan to move the P99 to your new boots (rather than buying a second P99 for the new boots). Is that correct ? If so, you run the risk that the size of the blades fitted for your current boots might not be the right size for your new boots (particularly since your current boots were used boots, if I understand your situation correctly).
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One word of caution. If you switch to P99 on your current boots, I assume you plan to move the P99 to your new boots (rather than buying a second P99 for the new boots). Is that correct ? If so, you run the risk that the size of the blades fitted for your current boots might not be the right size for your new boots (particularly since your current boots were used boots, if I understand your situation correctly).
Ugh, that is definitely a consideration since my pair are supposed to be made for size seven now, and I measured size 6 1/2 and 6 3/4 in the fitting. My blades are 9 3/4" and reach the very ends of the soles already, so I suppose I will need shorter.
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How exciting, grey suede sounds lovely!
How long do you wait for the new boots? Probably awhile...so maybe think about getting a Patt99 for the new boots and by the time they are ready, you will be ready for the Patt99 blade. It is going to be huge change after the Aspire, which is a very flat blade. I think you will ultimately prefer the Patt99 shape, but it will feel like you are on a wobble board at first. If you have a good skate tech, you could discuss a plan to start re-profiling your Aspire blade to have a little more shape at the front as a way to ease yourself toward the future.
Also, if you can find them, Step Blades makes a version of the Pattern 99 profile that is stainless and will have far more flow (very nice steel) and last longer than the J Wilson blades, plus it costs a little bit less. It's hard to argue with more flow and blade life at a lower cost. The profile really is the same, I have compared the blades and verified it.
Another thought on the stiffness--since it is a pretty simple thing to change the stiffness of the boots, why not start with one level lower than you have, which is in the more normal category, and then upgrade if you need it? That way, the break-in won't destroy your feet and legs and won't eat up as much of your skating season. My guess is that you will probably not need to get additional stiffening added for at least the first year, and maybe never. Boots that are too stiff can lead to a lot of problems that are hard to recover from. Boots that start to break down a little too soon are easily remedied, but bodies that have been damaged are not quite so easily restored.
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Ugh, that is definitely a consideration since my pair are supposed to be made for size seven now, and I measured size 6 1/2 and 6 3/4 in the fitting. My blades are 9 3/4" and reach the very ends of the soles already, so I suppose I will need shorter.
Does this mean one foot is a 6-1/2 and the other foot is 6-3/4?
Regardless, there is not a one-to-one correspondence between boot length and blade length. The same size boot can take different blade lengths, depending on the model of the boot, even within the same manufacturer; especially manufacturers that both maintain a traditional line and offer a quasi-Edea line. For a given size foot, the degree of heel pitch and the degree of overhang of the uppers with respect to the bottom of the outsole and the bottom of the heel can lead to different lengths measured between the front tip of the bottom of the outsole and the rear tip of the bottom of the heel.
If you want to play it safe, you should wait until you get your new boots in hand before ordering the new blades (assuming there's no inordinate delivery time for the blades). [Manufacturer's charts are not always accurate.]
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Here are some photos...
All the swatches that I received: white pebble calf and light tan pebble calf. The suedes are white, light grey, bamboo, fried rice, butterscotch, cameo, and pale pink.
Then I tried to show the four contenders in different light or with different backgrounds, because they just don't photograph as they appear in person (some anyway, like the white and grey suede especially.) The grey suede appears to me in person to look more like the white does in the photos. It photographs dark.
Lastly, my current skates, because why not. As you can see they a are a little roughed up. ;)
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It's amazing how much darker the suedes photograph!
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Supersharp, it's ten to twelve months before I get them. A long wait!
That is very interesting stuff about the blades. I never heard of Step Blades, but your description and approval of their version of the blade makes me want to look into that. Stainless and nice flow? Sounds great!
I'm hearing a lot about softer stiffness on here, so I'm reconsidering it a bit. I can say that the suede does take the stiffness down a level from what it would be in the elk that I have now. I really did struggle with my boots for a while. Months, looking back. I had shin pain and other stuff that Coach Awesome had never seen in all his years of coaching/competing, and I suppose it was the boots. He never really asked about or looked at my skates and blades. There is a definite Eastern European approach of "you have some skates, any skates, yes? Go skate then."
Yes, Tstopforme, one foot is a bit longer although they were surprisingly symmetrical in all the other measurements. Based on how the blades fit my current boots I can't be sure 9 3/4 will fit on the new pair, which is a bummer, but they might. I can probably plan ahead and get new blades twice though if I really need to, I think. I'm intrigued by the ones Supersharp recommended.
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Good stainless steel blades are so much easier to handle, in terms of preventing rust!
Step Ninety Nine blades (https://www.stepskates.com/en) are also available in two non-stainless versions, so be careful. Incidentally, they claim the carbon nanocoated blades "produces the lowest friction coefficient", but I assume they aren't stainless.
A potential problem with ordering blades from someone other than your (hopefully very good) skate tech is that if they come warped or otherwise defective, they may be harder to return. I have no idea if problems are likely with Step. Also, you might ask your skate tech if there is an extra charge to mount blades you don't order through them.
It's troubling to me that there is such a long wait to get skates made. In a year, some kid's feet would grow a lot. It might even be long enough for a lady to decide to get pregnant, which changes foot size too. And once skates start to break down, they sometimes become unusable faster than that.
While one can't see everything in a photo, the skate you showed did not appear to be broken down. It was barely creased. Remind me, what was your reason again for getting new boots? Or are you taking the year's wait into account, and assuming they will be more seriously broken down by that time, even if they aren't now?
EDIT: BTW, the last set of photos you uploaded were of zero length, and therefore cannot be viewed.
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I'm not sure why the photos didn't work. I tried again.
I can't really find anyplace selling the Ninety Nine blades in 9 3/4, but I contacted the company. If Coach Cheerful says to go for them I am sure the skate tech I use "locally" will mount them whether or not he orders them for me, but maybe he could order them. No idea, but I'd rather if he could. Then with the new boots I'd have to discuss it with the tech in NYC.
My reason for new boots is mainly that these were too narrow and gave me tailors bunions. I recently stretched them aggressively so that they feel pretty good now, but I had a little windfall financially and wanted to get a pair that fits better due to that making it possible. :) Also, my skates (only 150$ from eBay) arrived with the soles and uppers separating a bit, so I glued them, but the stretching of course has made this problem return, and I haven't found the same glue here... the one I tried recently did not adhere well despite looking like a good product for the task. I had found some white stuff that worked great in Romania but don't remember what it was and can't get more until I go back in December. Basically I'm worried the skates will not hold up well for many years, so I'm jumping at the chance to get the new pair with every fancy thing I want since I can.
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Oh.!
Sure, there are things you could do - like bolt the soles through, using a very thin nut under the insole (which I myself haven't yet done), and take repeated extreme measures to stretch the little toe area, but restretching leather is a pain in the neck and gets old fast.
AFAICT, there are a bunch of different "white" glues, in completely different chemical families. I don't know what type of glue to use if you don't know what the original glue was. Some of the engineers types here might know. E.g., in kayaks, when trying to re-stick to an adhesive that is hard to re-stick to after it has set, people sometimes roughen the surfaces and use epoxy - because epoxy doesn't have to form a chemical bond with the old surfaces to stick. Instead, it can fill up the spaces inside roughened surfaces. But I have no idea whether it would work for boots. Also, epoxies can be a bit complicated and messy to use, there are a bunch of different types with different characteristics, a variety of "fillers" that modify those characteristics, and in an ideal world, you would use skin, eye and lung protection. If you can maybe it does make sense to just wait until you return to Romania, and hope the white glue there sticks to the fully set older glue of the same type. If you can, maybe you could ship some of it to where you usually are (in case it won't get through airport or other security checks).
$150 (if that was USD) was really quite cheap compared to new (custom?) boots. It's not a huge loss. Plus, it sounds like you have gotten your money's worth out of them, and learned a lot doing so. Including what you want out of your your next pair.
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Alba--I could see all of the photos just fine. My feet have a similar size discrepancy, which is built into my Harlick boots. Your blades will need to be sized for the shorter foot. It is really nice to have both boots fit correctly!
The wait is long, but in the end it will be worth it, and once you get your new boots set up, you can send the current boots back to be rebuilt if they need it. It is surprisingly affordable to get the boots rebuilt and then you have backup boots for pond skating and when you eventually need to send the new boots in. They are also much quicker on rebuilds, so it's not such a big time investment.
The suede colors are beautiful. I chose that tan pebbled calf in the sample you show, and it's much more comfortable in the toe box than the standard, stiffer white leather on my old boots. That's the main area where you will feel a difference, and I think your feet will be glad for it. I still dream of suede but need to give up the dream of maintaining nice boots while performing epic choreographic slide sequences in order to go with suede, haha.
Going down a level in stiffness sounds like a really good approach. It's hard for your body to recover from things like tailors' bunions when you overboot. Overbooting also makes it hard to learn the subtle use of your ankles that builds strong technique. It will definitely benefit you on jump takeoffs and landings to be able to incorporate a good range of motion in the ankle.
I have not had any issues with returning blades that have not been sharpened or used. Just check with the vendor to make sure they will take them back or exchange them if your boots arrive and the sole length is not what you expected or if there is a defect. I agree with Query in hoping you have a good skate tech that will evaluate the blades to make sure they are as expected. I haven't seen any Step blades that were defective, but I have seen both boots and blades by other manufacturers that had problems that required an exchange.
Thanks for sharing your boot-selection process with all of us, it is great to live vicariously and get to consider all the aspects of selecting boots while not having to dread breaking them in http://skatingforums.com/Smileys/default/smiley.gif
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Thanks Query, I hoped you might have a good glue/epoxy suggestion since you tinker with such stuff. I wish I knew what I used and will have to go through my photos to see if I took a photo of the product, because otherwise that'll be a problem of going to the same hardware store and hoping to recognise it a year or more later.
The recent try was with Loctite 0 sec interior/exterior clear Power Grab.
I think they are okay for now, but it makes me uneasy, and I hope not to have a sole peel off like I saw happen to a girl's skate in Romania.
I agree that it was a good deal that worked out well for me to learn both skating and about what I'd like now that I am ordering a pair. :)
Supersharp, that's something I love about old school boots like these. Being able to send them out for repairs and refreshing is awesome. Having a backup gives peace of mind too.
Thank you for all your input! I'm glad you like the suedes too. I am pretty excited about the grey now, but all four of those are really pretty. I'd be happy with the tan pebble you have for sure but am so thrilled to get my grey.
I'm glad you're enjoying the discussion too!
Coach Cheerful said she and the "local" tech love Pattern 99s and that he might be able to get me the Ninety Nines, so I'm going to call him about it since I am probably about due for a sharpening too. I'd greatly prefer the stainless and lower cost if he can get those for me.
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I don't feel comfortable recommending epoxies. While it is obvious you need something somewhat flexible, waterproof, and with a consistency that lets it fill empty spaces, I don't know which would do that, if any. I only have a little experience with epoxy, on a broken fiberglass whitewater kayak paddle, and it eventually broke again.
In the wood and composite kayak and canoe community, the various epoxies and fillers sold by West Systems (https://www.westsystem.com) are the most common. They have a lot of educational material (https://www.westsystem.com/instruction-2), but it would be a lot to read through. It is also possible other brands of epoxy would meet your needs better. Or maybe epoxy isn't the best choice at all.
With my inexperience, if I tried to tell you what to use, and how, I might cause you to totally and permanently mess up your boots. In addition, if it broke off while you were skating, you could be injured, and I don't want to be responsible for that. If they were my boots, I might take a guess and try anyway, but I don't want to cause you to mess up yours, or risk injuring you.
I have used "shoe goo", not an epoxy, to repair or replace ordinary shoe soles - but it only works once or twice. I tried it on a skate boot heel that had broken off - but it quickly broke again.
There are other people on this forum who have engineering level knowledge, or more experience with epoxies and other glues, who could probably do a better job of telling you what to do. Though if you don't know the composition of the glues you used before on the surfaces, that might make it harder for them to do too.
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Query,
I didn't mean to put you on the spot but more that I figured if anyone here would have a good recommendation you probably would be the one. ;)
I've used Shoe Goo for some things in the past but definitely did not think it would work for my skates based on my experience with it. I'd rather use barge cement.
The mystery stuff from the Lowes/Home Depot type big store in Bucharest happened to work so well that I am still surprised. It filled the gaps and held perfectly until I really went for it with the boot stretchers more than a year later, and even now its just a bit on one boot that I see began to separate again. Good stuff, whatever it was. The dumb thing is that I suppose I could even find it here if I knew what it was to look for, but I am not sure I have a photo to go by.
Both Coach Cheerful and Awesome seem familiar with gluing crazily messed up skates back together, so I'll be bothering them about it next.
The next exciting thing is to ponder, discuss, and decide is about the blades and when to switch. ;D I may get a lesson tomorrow and hope to go over that whole idea more. I was excited about the Step blade but am not thrilled that it seems very difficult to source them. It worries me since I have a knack for falling in love with products (and restaurants) that quickly become unavailable. >:( I'd actually become curious about Skate Science blades late this summer only to find that those are gone. I'd be sad if I like the Ninety Nine and can't replace it or get the right size when the new boots are ready, so I'm starting to lean toward the Pattern 99 depending on what the skate tech and Coach Cheerful say. /rambling :laugh:
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About stiffness - there's a story about choosing appropriate stiffness in the current issue of Skating Magazine. While some of the info has been mentioned in this thread, it's still a good read. It was written by someone with medical qualifications and who has skating experience.
Current US Figure Skating members might have a copy coming their way.
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About stiffness - there's a story about choosing appropriate stiffness in the current issue of Skating Magazine. While some of the info has been mentioned in this thread, it's still a good read. It was written by someone with medical qualifications and who has skating experience.
Current US Figure Skating members might have a copy coming their way.
Ooh, I hope I receive that!
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About stiffness - there's a story about choosing appropriate stiffness in the current issue of Skating Magazine. While some of the info has been mentioned in this thread, it's still a good read. It was written by someone with medical qualifications and who has skating experience.
Current US Figure Skating members might have a copy coming their way.
I'd love to see this too, but am not a USFSA member. Is there any way to eventually get access? Do they make archived issues public?
This is bringing back fun memories of getting my Skating Magazine back when I was a kid- there were Campbells cans slathered all throughout it! But I loved looking in the back and test/competition results and seeing results for friends (and sometimes even myself!)
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About stiffness - there's a story about choosing appropriate stiffness in the current issue of Skating Magazine. While some of the info has been mentioned in this thread, it's still a good read. It was written by someone with medical qualifications and who has skating experience.
Current US Figure Skating members might have a copy coming their way.
I'll try to track down a copy, since I plan to order new boots within the next several months. Which month is the "current" issue that you are referring to? I ask, because for some magazines I subscribe to, I get the issue about a month before the date on the cover (i.e., I get the Nov issue in Oct). Actually, could you provide the full citation (author, title, issue, page numbers)? My local library can get copies of certain (not all) articles on request. If none of my skating friends has a copy, I'll try the library.
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I too hope there is another source, because I only very occasionally receive anything from USFS. Last I received was the summer Learn to Skate USA the Magazine, but that isn't the one with the article for sure. I'm not sure I get Skating Magazine.
According to the info inside the LTS one they publish four times a year and we can subscribe for 16$ which I assume is similar for the other publication. It would be too late to subscribe and get the latest issue, and I suppose that I don't get it after all or would have had it by now. Drat.
Good idea about the library.
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The story is "Skate Talk with Patti - Revisiting boot support levels: What's enough, what is too much?" by Patti Larkin.
According to the published bio, she's a board-certified pedorthist and retired board-certified orthotist. She has spent 21 years in the orthotics field fitting custom orthopedic braces and foot orthotics. She is a former competitive skater, coach, and judge. Her business is Houston Skate & Sports Orthotics Center.
This ran in Skating, Vol. 99 No 8, October 2022. Pictured on the cover is Terry Gannon with other announcers, with a featured story about Gannon on the inside.
(It makes me long for the Terry Gannon, Dick Button, and Peggy Fleming days!)
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Thanks, Bill. I'll ask some of the skaters at my rink whether they have a copy.
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Our club orders a lot of skates from Patti's shop and she has been a great resource for figuring out what boot style is a good shape for different feet.
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Skating magazine archive
https://usfsa.xmlmanager.qg.com/
Unfortunately, it stops after 2021. Maybe they will add the current editions next year.
It had a lot of interesting info, including John Harmata's "Mr. Edge" column from a skate tech's perspective. A lot of info about blades and boots.
But I haven't looked at it in a while.
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I too hope there is another source, because I only very occasionally receive anything from USFS. Last I received was the summer Learn to Skate USA the Magazine, but that isn't the one with the article for sure. I'm not sure I get Skating Magazine.
According to the info inside the LTS one they publish four times a year and we can subscribe for 16$ which I assume is similar for the other publication. It would be too late to subscribe and get the latest issue, and I suppose that I don't get it after all or would have had it by now. Drat.
Good idea about the library.
Start by asking your coaches. I just texted my coach. She has a copy, and will bring it to our next lesson.
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I dug around today too and found the archives all excited until I discovered, like Query, that the archives don't include 2022.
Thanks Query, I'll be able to read the article after all. Aside from that I'm going to subscribe, because I obviously can't get enough geeking out about skating stuff. :laugh:
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Those two are the only types that I've skated in for any length of time, and I'd agree that the soft foam (looking like expanded bubbles) worked better for me. I wonder what the fabric-covered padding in some newer Riedell skates would be like long-term?
To the OP - for grins, check out these Riedell leather customization options...
https://www.ice.riedellskates.com/custom-skates (https://www.ice.riedellskates.com/custom-skates)
The Fabric covering on my Risports lasts forever. Or, at least until I need to replace the boots. I didn't like foam. The tongue is way too soft and the foam starts to peel off and whatnot. Makes me feel like I have to tie the skate really tight, because I'm getting no support from the tongue. That does depend on the design of the tongue, though.
I had SP Teris with foam and when I ordered customs I opted for the covered tongue for that reason.
I did feel like the foam had a lot more friction to it, so it may move or torque less while skating for people who tend to struggle with that. Tongue Hooks never really seem to work for me. The boot always loosens a bit up there, so the tongue would move anyways.
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Nate, I'm really glad I opted for the lined foam tongue. As for hooks, my current pair has them, and I never feel any problems with the tongue placement or moving, so I am getting a hook again. The pair of (other brand Riedell? Risport?) skates on display that had the leather lining including the tongue. It was sooooo plush and nice. I look forward to that.
Since I'm posting...
At my lesson yesterday I talked a bit with Coach Cheerful about the skates and blades. Before that her other adult student mentioned that Coach Cheerful didn't like the idea of black at all. Hah. Neither she or Coach Awesome answered about the colour part of my questions at all, and I suspected they both didn't want to say that they hate the idea of black. Anyway, Other Adult loved the grey swatch too. It looks much more pale in the bright rink lights! I meant to take a photo but have to do it another time to see if it still looks so much darker or not.
Coach Cheerful also really liked the grey (and the white suede heel stay detail.) :)
More importantly she was satisfied with the bit of reduction in stiffness that suede will cause, and we are settled on those choices now. She also is happy for me to switch to Pattern 99s right away and insisted I'll be just fine (although I am a little nervous and hate change.)
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Attached is a quick and imperfect scan of the article. There was a lot of glare on the shiny paper, so I couldn't put it on a flat surface...but the content is readable.
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Thank you Supersharp! ;)
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I have a new dilemma that I'm researching while I wait for Monday to ask Coach Cheerful and talk to the skate tech again when he calls about pricing and the time line...
I called the "local" guy about ordering the new blades, and we had a bunch of back and forth about the length. He is far out of my way to get to, so I can't really just show him what my blade situation is, but I have a lesson tomorrow and can discuss it in person with Coach Cheerful.
My understanding is that the mounting plates of blades should be at most flush with the sole of the skate and can be up to a quarter inch shorter. Currently my 9 3/4 blades are end to end.
The new boots are going to be slightly shorter, I expect, because my longer foot measured Harlick 6 3/4 standing. The current boots don't feel too long but are supposed to be Harlick 7AAAA that I stretched the width of aggressively. (I think I have a B width now.)
Given this I thought I could go down to a 9 1/2 blade? The skate tech became really discombobulated about it all (he always gets that way in conversation ??? ;)) but eventually seemed to agree and prefer a shorter blade if possible, and I figured I'd ask all you guys here about it since all I can do is wait right now. ;)
Btw, I am so nervous about switching despite being excited since there is so much talk about Aspire XPs being bad for spinning although I seem to do pretty well with them. I just made a big leap in progress with the back spin especially and worry a lot about how long it'll take to get used to something new!
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Can you contact Harlick and get a confirmation about the sole length before investing in new blades? It would be a shame to get new bladesand not have them fit correctly when the new boots arrive.
That said, I do think that your assumptions are carefully made. If I were betting on a likely strategy, that would be it. But it's still a bit of gamble.
There's no doubt that it WILL take time to adjust to new equipment. That includes both boots and blades. BTW, I never adapted to Jackson Ultima blades for spinning in my blade experiments, but you must consider that I was a long-time user of MK and Wilson blades. Regardless, I think that you will be better served in the long run with Pattern 99 blades, especially given the time and energy you put into skating.
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Bill, I'd have to wait for Harlick to receive/process the order otherwise I would have asked yesterday. I could wait, but I think I'm okay with the gamble since I plan to use the old skates as backup/pond. The part I was most unsure about was if it is correct to think that 9 1/2" blades would be okay for these boots given that the 9 3/4" plates reach the ends?
I'll have to report back about the adaptation. I sure hope it isn't too bad. One reason I'm in a rush to switch is to have as much time as possible to get used to them before the end of the LTS semester (being hopeful to get those Freeskate 3 and 4 patches.) :D Also, I may try competing at a little local thing in January, so... that sounds like so far off, but I have no idea what to expect.
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You should be fine substituting a 9-1/2 blade if your 9-3/4 blades are flush with the ends of your current boots.
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Attached is a quick and imperfect scan of the article. There was a lot of glare on the shiny paper, so I couldn't put it on a flat surface...but the content is readable.
I wonder how important the blade is to boot stiffness.
In particular, many people, including at least one medical study, have claimed that more flexible blade chassis (to some extent aluminum, such as are in Paramount and Ultima Matrix blades; but more so for carbon fiber - e.g., Revolution blades) lead to less landing force on the foot, which presumably also means less force on the boot.
But I realize that probably isn't an issue for the o.p., unless she chooses one of those blades.
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Thanks for the confirmation on that Bill.
Query, I'd wonder about that too.
It's a question for a separate thread, I suppose, but the Pattern 99 phoenix caught my eye in the shop due to the look (despite my usual preference for old styles vs modern stuff.) Then in some of my reading about Pattern 99s in various place online all I saw were mentions of them being not good to consider. I haven't seen any detailed reasons, but I'll probably be googling about that at some point.
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Thanks SuperSharp! +GOE
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I've heard that the Phoenix blades are noisy, which may or may not matter depending on your viewpoint. If you are planning on doing testing through US Figure Skating (rather than LTS), judges may be distracted by noisy blades and wonder if there is something off with your technique even though it looks fine. If you are not doing this type of testing (or competition), it probably matters less, although having seen the Phoenix in person (in Phoenix, AZ, haha), I'm not convinced the sides are uniformly parallel, so I would worry about getting a consistent sharpening.
Of course, being a sharpener, I am possibly more focused on whether or not blades make it possible to reliably create level edges...
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I also read they are noisy and could potentially cause sharpening issues, so I'd probably pass on them, but they piqued my interest since my boot choice is heavy, the runner is stainless, and they were rather pretty. So far I haven't encountered any posts saying positive things about them, and for most blades you can find that much.
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It's been my theory that the length of the outsole shouldn't determine the length of your blade - after all, the outsole doesn't normally touch the ice, and some people end up with boots that are significantly longer than their feet, because of other fitting parameters. It should have to do with the size and anatomy of your foot, perhaps projected vertically (since most skate boots tilt your foot downwards at the front). Though I'm not sure exactly what the relationship should be.
I mentioned that to a Klingbeil fitter, and they responded that while that might be true, a completely custom boot could be designed so the outsole was the bootmaker's best guess at the right length - and she said that for custom Klingbeil boots, that would be true. However, Klingbeil is out of business, and you are getting a different brand, so that might not apply.
Unfortunately, that won't help you, since I can't be more specific - and I'm not sure other custom bootmakers would agree.
It's a shame that on boots and blades, you frequently have to guess what is right.
Another place people guess is on heel height, which relates to the amount of that forwards tilt. Too much tilt, and you may not be flexible enough to be comfortable (that happened to me), or you may balance poorly. I'm not sure what happens if you get too little tilt - maybe for some people it makes it hard to turn and spin??
It's unfortunate that with such an expensive purchase, there is so much guesswork.
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Query, heel height is definitely another big one!
I like what I have. (1 3/4") I'm used to it and happy but wondered what other heights might feel like. The new blades will I guess be lower perhaps, so that should be interesting. I know I felt low in Phantoms.
It would be so nice to be able to try these options first.
Sooooo, my tech called back today saying I'll have to get the blades myself. I asked him about getting the Step Ninety Nines, and he told me I'd have to go to Canada or find someone to ship them. He LOVES Step and spoke so highly of the qualities of their hockey blades that I was convinced to go on a search. (He said he never handled their figure stuff but would try it in a heartbeat if he was me given the finish of their blades, the steel, and the price difference.)
Step never wrote back, so I called Quebec, and they transferred me to I think CCM in the US? The representative told me that they can't get the blades due to their production being halted until 2023. That explains the lack of inventory online?
I called a random hockey place near one of my rinks that carries Step before that, and they said they would not handle anything figure. Next I tried a random store in Canada, and they were helpful but only had the Pattern 99s and no Step Ninety Nines. The guy I spoke had a helpful comment. He told me that they used to sell Step hockey blades but have stopped now that CCM took over, because the quality went down terribly with rust and pitting problems. I thanked him for that information, because it makes me think I'd end up with one pair now if I'm lucky but looking at Pattern 99 in the future if the quality continued to be no longer so nice as it was when recommendations were made. I really love the idea of stainless and was convinced about the nice quality or else it would be easy to just go ahead and order the others and get it over with.
I think I may still call around and try to hunt down a set, but I hate to waste time. :-\
We are probably going over the border whenever Daughter's renewed passport arrives, but that leaves me little time to adjust before some things that I rather not be still adapting to new blades for (the end of this LTS semester, lessons with Coach Awesome between the holidays, and possibly competing in early January.)
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Step never wrote back, so I called Quebec, and they transferred me to I think CCM in the US? The representative told me that they can't get the blades due to their production being halted until 2023. That explains the lack of inventory online?
If it is really going to take a year for your boots to be made (ridiculous! I wonder if that is true of other good boot brands.), you could wait until 2023.
Plus, as others have suggested, you may want to wait until the boots come to determine the right size.
To find a discount, you could search at google for
+"step ninety-nine" +blades
I currently found 5 sites. You could call them all to check for your size. Except that you don't really know your size in this brand.
Just make sure you get the stainless steel version, if that is what you want.
Heel height augments the forward tilt of the foot bed, so the heel height you want may depend on that tilt. Before increasing your total heel elevation (an idea I hate, but maybe you don't), I suggest you put blocks of wood under your current skates, wearing blade covers, and stand for a long while, and see if you actually feel comfortable that way, and you feel well balanced. When I tried 2.5" heels on ice dance boots, it hurt a lot to wear them at all, because I'm not that flexible, and I'm a guy who never wears high heels outside skating, and I had to get them modified. The specific lean style I was taught (lean back while skating forwards) probably made that over-stretch worse. Of course, had I been taught the opposite lean style (lean forwards while skating forwards), I might have overbalanced instead, and have suffered muscle overuse.
I think high heels are EVIL torture devices, but I admit some people disagree.
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Query, I was told by another source today that the blades aren't going to be made at all anymore. :( They sounded reliable and reasonable.
As for the boot timeline, it could be only 10 months, and I do not anticipate less although I see they posted on social media that things are speeding up a little again? I can hope, but I rather pay for lessons than the expediting fees that were not that much sooner. I'm an adult and can be patient. Also, I've waited longer for custom footwear before. (I hate my sensitive feet!)
Thank you, I'm no good at Googling, so that should help. I definitely want stainless if I find the Step blade. I called that many places today though.
You tried a 2.5" heel? Omg. I have worn very high heels off ice before, like 4+ inches on a rare occasion, but I have no desire to now, and lately it makes my big toe joint ache awfully even in "low" heels off ice. I kept the 1 3/4" that I have for that reason. I want no pain that I don't need. ;)
Very old skates, a hundred years ago, had very low heels I think? I find that interesting.
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You tried a 2.5" heel? Omg. I have worn very high heels off ice before, like 4+ inches on a rare occasion, but I have no desire to now, and lately it makes my big toe joint ache awfully even in "low" heels off ice. I kept the 1 3/4" that I have for that reason. I want no pain that I don't need. ;)
Very old skates, a hundred years ago, had very low heels I think? I find that interesting.
When it comes to choice of heel height, it's wiser to err on the side of lower rather than higher. If too low, you can add spacers. If too high, cutting down the heels incurs a lot more grief. An advanced ice dancer at my rink was having problems with her new dance boots. Her coach (also my coach) suspected that she needed higher heels. The coach knew I did a lot of tinkering with boots, so she asked me for help. I made multiple sets of trial spacers of different thicknesses. I brought them to the rink and installed them on the spot so the ice dancer could try them out in near real time. I swapped out the spacers until we found the Goldilocks value (this spacer is too thin, this spacer is too thick, this spacer is just right). I then took the boots home and installed more robust spacers of the proper thickness.
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When it comes to choice of heel height, it's wiser to err on the side of lower rather than higher. If too low, you can add spacers. If too high, cutting down the heels incurs a lot more grief. An advanced ice dancer at my rink was having problems with her new dance boots. Her coach (also my coach) suspected that she needed higher heels. The coach knew I did a lot of tinkering with boots, so she asked me for help. I made multiple sets of trial spacers of different thicknesses. I brought them to the rink and installed them on the spot so the ice dancer could try them out in near real time. I swapped out the spacers until we found the Goldilocks value (this spacer is too thin, this spacer is too thick, this spacer is just right). I then took the boots home and installed more robust spacers of the proper thickness.
That's pretty neat!
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Wow, I ended up ordering Pattern 99s yesterday, and I had a shipping notice from UPS late tonight with delivery tomorrow! Maybe Friday I can have them mounted so I can start getting used to them before lessons next week. :)
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Wonderful news! I hope that getting used to them goes rapidly for you. :D
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When it comes to choice of heel height, it's wiser to err on the side of lower rather than higher. If too low, you can add spacers. If too high, cutting down the heels incurs a lot more grief. An advanced ice dancer at my rink was having problems with her new dance boots. Her coach (also my coach) suspected that she needed higher heels. The coach knew I did a lot of tinkering with boots, so she asked me for help. I made multiple sets of trial spacers of different thicknesses. I brought them to the rink and installed them on the spot so the ice dancer could try them out in near real time. I swapped out the spacers until we found the Goldilocks value (this spacer is too thin, this spacer is too thick, this spacer is just right). I then took the boots home and installed more robust spacers of the proper thickness.
Great idea! For someone who wonders if the heels are too high, you could do a similar experiment by using spacers to lift the toe plate.
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The use of spacers sounds like a great idea.
BTW, I asked here why figure skates had high heels in 2007, and got some very interesting replies
http://skating.zachariahs.com/skatingforums-onice/www.skatingforums.com/showthread49de.html?t=25111
It is interesting that ice dancers are often told to get higher heels than for freestyle. I wonder if it has something to do with getting faster turns.
I suppose it is also possible that over time, the heel height and the shapes of the blades have been adapted to work with each other. E.g., if you raise or lower the heel height, the relationship of the toe pick to the rest of the boot would have to change to give you the same feel and interactions. In a real sense, the shape of the blade should change in other ways if you substantially alter the heel height.
And maybe that is why ice dancers tend to go with higher heels: ice dance blades are shaped to make it harder to interact with the toe pick - maybe they went too far in that direction?
Oh well, heel height is kind of a side issue. to the o.p., since she already decided on that.
I still don't get why the wait for the o.p.'s new boots is going to be so long. Is that true for other custom boot brands? And is it something that developed during Covid - i.e., did they temporally stop production, and still need to catch up? Is that long a wait true for non-custom boots?
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Great idea! For someone who wonders if the heels are too high, you could do a similar experiment by using spacers to lift the toe plate.
That's a good point. Much better alternative to cutting down the heels.
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Quick update to this saga: I already am beginning to love the Pattern 99s after just barely an hour on them. Niiiiiiiiiiiiice. :love:
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Quick update to this saga: I already am beginning to love the Pattern 99s after just barely and hour on them. Niiiiiiiiiiiiice. :love:
That is great news!
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Quick update to this saga: I already am beginning to love the Pattern 99s after just barely an hour on them. Niiiiiiiiiiiiice. :love:
What do you love about them?
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What do you love about them?
They felt really fantastic gliding compared to the old blades, like, crossovers, power stroking, and such felt so smooth and buttery. :love:
Forward spins practically disappeared for a few minutes, but once I went back to Coach Awesome's beginning way (standing like a scarecrow and pushing with my toe to get the spin going and to the right spot that way) it was like BAM!... Going and going with the tiniest little centred tracings. Camel and sit spins felt significantly easier, and I think that once I'm used to these I'll definitely spin a lot better than I've been managing so far. (Back spins felt about the same level as before on these for a few minutes until also starting to feel a bit easier.)
Mostly it's the smooth feel. I don't know how else to express it, but I can sure tell I'm on better equipment. In reviewing video to edit for a Youtube post I thought I looked a little like a more experienced skater now too... something about the flow and edges? However, I hadn't reviewed much footage in a few weeks besides spins and can't be sure I didn't just actually skate a bit better recently than a month ago or something?
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It is probably about halfway through the wait for these boots, and I want to update that I have asked to lower the stiffness level. :blank:
I've finally been convinced. So, they'll be at least two levels less stiff than my current boots (more if the fitter strongly recommends it.) Between the short ice season in Germany (I'm not as willing to lose the estimated month of break in he expected for me not to mention struggling to regain skills,) the feel of the Klingbiels that I got for PICskate frames, and re-reading my skate journal only to discover that I skated through shin pain a lot longer than I remembered (more than a year longer)... Softer boots it is.
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BTW, do you plan to join a Synchro or Production team? If so, do you know if then require a particular boot color?
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BTW, do you plan to join a Synchro or Production team? If so, do you know if then require a particular boot color?
I was kindly invited join a synchro team, and I would have liked to to, but life stuff prevents it, and I don't foresee that in my future either. I doubt I'll ever be good enough (or free from life stuff) to join a show requiring tan, but I have those too. I'm competing now, but it looks difficult to keep doing that much after my move to Europe. :'(
I am getting the pale grey suede customs, am keeping and renewing the tongue/relining/reducing stiffness of my current "normal" white pair, and I also have the skates in light tan suede on the way now too. :)
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I was kindly invited join a synchro team, and I would have liked to to, but life stuff prevents it, and I don't foresee that in my future either. I doubt I'll ever be good enough (or free from life stuff) to join a show requiring tan, but I have those too. I'm competing now, but it looks difficult to keep doing that much after my move to Europe. :'(
I am getting the pale grey suede customs, am keeping and renewing the tongue/relining/reducing stiffness of my current "normal" white pair, and I also have the skates in light tan suede on the way now too. :)
This can be done? If so I'm on the horn to Jackson tomorrow. I know they can rebuild......didn't know than can ...unbuild?
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This can be done? If so I'm on the horn to Jackson tomorrow. I know they can rebuild......didn't know than can ...unbuild?
Harlick definitely does it, but I don't know about Jackson. Harlick does such things to other brands too, according to the site. https://www.harlick.com/repairs
It's $75 to reduce stiffness and $100 to increase it. :)
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They felt really fantastic gliding compared to the old blades, like, crossovers, power stroking, and such felt so smooth and buttery. :love:
I can vouch for this. I am a bit perplexed by them because people generally speak of them as good blades for jumping, but they actually felt more optimal for the actual skating. I'd probably do moves in the field on them, but I actually find the gold seal profile and pick cluster better for jumping - especially toe jumps. The Patterns actually felt REALLY good for edge jumps because the lift angle is so low. You get to the picks faster, so you can actually put a lot of power into pushing up into edge jumps. Plus, the drag pick is tapered, which really facilitates pivoting up into those jumps. With Toe Jumps... they make me hammer because of how prone the picks are to slippage.
I can't spin on them, though. The blade's neutral balance point feels further back compared to any other blade I've skated on, which is too big of an adjustment on spins... but probably why they feel so good to skate on. That does make things like turns and crossovers easier, as it basically allows you to skate with better alignment and posture without feeling like you're going to pitch forwards or backwards. When I swapped to them, my MITF all improved noticeably. Like, to an almost shocking degree. Everything was better, and at a higher speed with better posture and it all felt more stable.
EDIT: I do think my Pinnacles "maintain" speed/flow better than the Pattern 99s, but they always felt a bit "pitchy" to me due to how rounded the blade is... and the lift angle for edge jumps is a bit too much for me.
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It is probably about halfway through the wait for these boots, and I want to update that I have asked to lower the stiffness level. :blank:
I've finally been convinced. So, they'll be at least two levels less stiff than my current boots (more if the fitter strongly recommends it.) Between the short ice season in Germany (I'm not as willing to lose the estimated month of break in he expected for me not to mention struggling to regain skills,) the feel of the Klingbiels that I got for PICskate frames, and re-reading my skate journal only to discover that I skated through shin pain a lot longer than I remembered (more than a year longer)... Softer boots it is.
Are you concerned about going to a lower stiffness? I always feel that if I go to a stiffer boot, I cannot go back to a softer boot. I skated in my Risport RF-1 Elites Monday (90 Rating for Risport - the highest they offer, these boots are still fairly new) to give my feet a rest from my too-narrow Jackson Elite Supremes (85 Rating) while I wait on a new Rapid Custom pair to come in. Those boots felt like Risports RF-3's because my muscles had already gotten used to the Jacksons.
The only way to get them to feel supportive was to tie them so tight that I was cutting off the circulation in my feet.
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Nate, I am definitely worried about going down in stiffness. I am so used to the crazy stiff boots that less stiff seemed impossible. I actually also tend to tie them too tight in the ankle often. ??? I can bend in them totally fine, but the break in on the new totally stiff pair sounds daunting with the limited ice season in Germany.
The pair I tried yesterday felt a bit scary for baby little jumps, but I am going to try them again tomorrow. I am convinced to go a little lower in stiffness but maybe not as much as Coach Cheerful would prefer. I also emailed Harlick about the changes and explaining my level, ambitions, and about the stiffness I am used to, because I hope they might suggest which stiffness to switch to.
The lace bite yesterday made evaluating things a little more tough, so I have to remember to cut up some foam. It may make a big difference for the jumps not to have laces cutting in. 88)
I think I do hammer on toe jumps in the Pattern 99s too, but I love the toe picks all the same because they feel quite reliable. I learned to spin on the infamous Aspire XPs, so I guess I can manage to spin on anything. The Coronation Aces made it intriguingly easy though. I am looking forward to messing around spinning on them again. Switching to Pattern 99 improved my skating the same way you mention. That was lovely, and these Aces feel just as nice.
The Aces are too long for my boots, so using those isn't really an option, and I would be concerned about getting parabolics sharpened properly. They are so nice though!
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FWIIW, some people are allergic to some materials used in some shoes and boots.
The advantage of sticking with what you know, if it created no reaction before, is that it probably still won't.
Then again, shoe allergies aren't super-common.
I would guess, though I could be wrong, that synthetic closed cell foam would biodegrade less easily than lamb's wool
though almost anything used in shoes and boots is treated with anti-fungal agents and other poisons which slow biodegradability, and tend to prevent things from living in them.
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A subset of people are allergic to ice (https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/diseases/24629-cold-urticaria). For a subsubset of these people, contact with ice could prove fatal. And prolonged contact with the ice could reduce biodegradability of resultant corpses, should they remain undisturbed (https://secretsoftheice.com/ice-mummies/). But I would guess, though I could be wrong, that most Zamboni drivers would remove corpses from the ice surface before they perform a resurfacing operation (I'm not an expert on how Zamboni drivers deal with corpses on the ice surface). ... And there is the separate intriguing issue of how rink operators deal with corpses under the ice surface (https://the-blacklist.fandom.com/wiki/Julian_Gale#%E2%80%9CPhilomena%E2%80%9D).
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Tstop4me, I know you are just having fun at my expense. But I assume anyone allergic to cold probably realized long ago they should stay away from winter sports. Likewise, I know someone with a heat allergy, specifically Rosacea, who doesn't soak in hot tubs.
OTOH, allergies to the fabrics in clothing (and to detergents, fragrances, whiteners, softeners, etc.) are very common. E.g., wool makes me itch, and turned out, along with Tide detergent, to be the main reason for the acne that I lived with for most of my life. (I do not have an obvious physical reaction to wearing wool suits - maybe because it is treated in way that make it softer and less abrasive.) It took me a long time to realize that - dermatologists were no help, they kept treating me with antibiotics like tetracycline that were completely ineffective - for me. If you have a skin problem, sometimes you have to figure the causes out for yourself.
I know a fair number of other people who eventually developed reactions to fabrics or the chemicals used to clean and treat them, after repeated exposure. E.g., I wonder if boot makers are ever asked not to use "chrome tanned leather", the most common type, for that reason.
But if I liked the way a particular material felt against my skin, and it created no adverse reactions, I would use it, no matter what someone else said. Alba asks a lot of questions about these things, no doubt hoping not to waste money on expensive boots and blades, but some of them really do come down to personal preference.
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But I would guess, though I could be wrong, that most Zamboni drivers would remove corpses from the ice surface before they perform a resurfacing operation (I'm not an expert on how Zamboni drivers deal with corpses on the ice surface).
I think the protocol is to push it off the ice with a broom to make sure the ice would be perfect for the next hockey group and hopefully without taking more than the ten allotted minutes. Unless the goalies offer to scoot it around out of the way like a net, of course.
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Query, I get chilblains easily, have dysautonomia that makes body temperature regulation a problem, and have I raynauds that should all make me avoid the cold of the rink. I'm not wise though, so here I am a skater anyway. ;D
I seem fine with all wool, but I went for the leather lined option after all. It'll give some more stiffness and longevity to the tongue.
The wool for suits is much higher quality merino with longer and finer fibres, so it shouldn't itch. Other wool for sweaters or blankets can be more coarse and with shorter fibres that make more scratchy fabrics. The other issue is if lanolin causes trouble, I suppose, but higher grade wool fibres can be quite nice.
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I think the protocol is to push it off the ice with a broom to make sure the ice would be perfect for the next hockey group and hopefully without taking more than the ten allotted minutes. Unless the goalies offer to scoot it around out of the way like a net, of course.
That's right, among your many talents, you are a Zamboni driver. Thanks for the inside scoop! ;D
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Good to know, I had guessed the Zam driver would lasso the corpse and hydroplane it along behind the machine so as to not take more than the 10 allotted minutes. Afterwards, if people complained about the ice quality, Zam driver would point to the corpse and perhaps insinuate that the corpse had made a similar comment about ice quality earlier...
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Good to know, I had guessed the Zam driver would lasso the corpse and hydroplane it along behind the machine so as to not take more than the 10 allotted minutes. Afterwards, if people complained about the ice quality, Zam driver would point to the corpse and perhaps insinuate that the corpse had made a similar comment about ice quality earlier...
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
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Good to know, I had guessed the Zam driver would lasso the corpse and hydroplane it along behind the machine so as to not take more than the 10 allotted minutes. Afterwards, if people complained about the ice quality, Zam driver would point to the corpse and perhaps insinuate that the corpse had made a similar comment about ice quality earlier...
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
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I have an update on my skates. Today I missed a call from Harlick while on the Zamboni, but I was able to reach them when I called back.
I was surprised to hear that the custom pair will not be ready until November or December! Wow. Jason was apologetic about that and a need for more help in the workshop. Skate boot making would be an absolute dream job for me if I were in the Bay area, and we chatted about that idea since I have some relevant training. A part of me is thinking “forget Germany and move to California!!!” 8)
Anyway, the excellent news is that my inline pair will be shipped back to me beginning of next week. Yay! He already put in new stiffening and just had eyelets to add, a Klingbeil hook, and to repair the tongues. I’m glad to hear that the suede doesn’t need to be replaced, just the foam, and he can add the leather lining. I’m excited to try them out in about a week!
This reminds me that I shaved a big chunk of the white paint off one boot while working on jumps with Coach Aweome, and then today Coach Cheerful took off another chunk off the other boot accidentally stepping on my foot today. My current boots are starting to look really, really rough. I forgot to bring paint with me to make them nicer for the competition tomorrow too. Oops. They feel really comfortable lately at least.
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Are you concerned about going to a lower stiffness? I always feel that if I go to a stiffer boot, I cannot go back to a softer boot. I skated in my Risport RF-1 Elites Monday (90 Rating for Risport - the highest they offer, these boots are still fairly new) to give my feet a rest from my too-narrow Jackson Elite Supremes (85 Rating) while I wait on a new Rapid Custom pair to come in. Those boots felt like Risports RF-3's because my muscles had already gotten used to the Jacksons.
The only way to get them to feel supportive was to tie them so tight that I was cutting off the circulation in my feet.
I've had the Rapid Custom Jacksons for a couple of months and have worn them about 25 minutes... most of which spent heat molding them. I doubt I will ever skate a session on them.
The footbed on the M and Wide are literally identical, so I have the same issue where the footbed isn't wide enough for my feet resulting in my being completely unable to get a balanced mounting with them, because it isn't "actually wide enough" for my foot. All they do is add a little more room accommodation in the upper, but it literally doesn't matter if the footbed is still too narrow for the foot of the person that has to wear them.
Practically speaking, they just send me the same "too narrow" boot and stamped it with a W instead of an M. Waste of money.
If I had known that, I wouldn't have bothered. I'd have just paid the $2-2.5K or so to fly out to Harlick and have them measure and build me a pair.
The back of the arch (before the heel) of the footbed for my SP-Teri boots is a whole quarter of an inch wider than the Wide Jacksons, which is literally identical in width to the Medium Width Jacksons.
And the heel is equally as narrow, so if I were to try to force myself to wear them, heel bumps and Achilles Tendonitis is probably a guarantee.
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Nate, you make it sound like "Rapid Custom Jackson" boots are basically no different than any other non-custom but heat moldable boot. Is that true?
A question is whether you can do anything at all useful with those boots.
If the heat moldable part includes the top of the toe box, maybe you could add a little height to the footbeds by inserting extra insoles, and then re-heat-molding the boots. That wouldn't work on all boots, maybe not most boots, because boots are usually built narrower, not wider, up top - it depends just how heat moldable they are, and where - but it might be worth a try if you can't think of anything else to do with the boots.
You could also contact Jackson (NOT your pro shop), and ask if they have any advice. Maybe, for a "nominal" fee, they would rebuild them with a wider footbed. I'm not sure that is possible, but it doesn't hurt to ask.
BTW, didn't someone mention that Harlick (or maybe it was sometimes rebuilds other people's boots? I Jackson won't, I wonder if they could do anything.
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Nate: I assume that you did first try removing your insoles, to see if that gave you enough empty space, since, as I said, most boots are larger towards the bottom.
I eventually did that on my old Klingbeils. It wasn't really enough for me, but they became slightly tolerable.
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I've had the Rapid Custom Jacksons for a couple of months and have worn them about 25 minutes... most of which spent heat molding them. I doubt I will ever skate a session on them.
The footbed on the M and Wide are literally identical, so I have the same issue where the footbed isn't wide enough for my feet resulting in my being completely unable to get a balanced mounting with them, because it isn't "actually wide enough" for my foot. All they do is add a little more room accommodation in the upper, but it literally doesn't matter if the footbed is still too narrow for the foot of the person that has to wear them.
Practically speaking, they just send me the same "too narrow" boot and stamped it with a W instead of an M. Waste of money.
If I had known that, I wouldn't have bothered. I'd have just paid the $2-2.5K or so to fly out to Harlick and have them measure and build me a pair.
The back of the arch (before the heel) of the footbed for my SP-Teri boots is a whole quarter of an inch wider than the Wide Jacksons, which is literally identical in width to the Medium Width Jacksons.
And the heel is equally as narrow, so if I were to try to force myself to wear them, heel bumps and Achilles Tendonitis is probably a guarantee.
If you ordered Rapid Custom, I assume you went to a Jackson authorized tech. Is that correct? If so, the tech is responsible for the measurements, tracings, and scans [if your tech has the Jackson scanner; the scanner gave wrong results for me]. And Jackson is responsible for proper execution. If they don't fit, I would expect a new pair that does or a refund.
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I have about 10 different pairs of insoles here. There is no way to skate in Jackson's without insoles. There are metal plates and jagged stable edges in the heels/down the footbed, and the screws aren't totally flush with the metal plates (same on my SP Teris, so not a Jackson-specific thing). I'd kill my feet. Beyond that, the footbed simply isn't wide enough. Lol. It's just something that I've come to accept. Bad skates for my feet. I assumed going from a Medium to Wide boot would mean I get a wider footbed on the boot. That just sort of seems like a reasonable assumption to me. But it's literally a Normal/Medium width footbed with a little more leather added to the upper for room there. The increase in width doesn't - at all - address the core issue of not having a stable base for my foot to rest on, so the boots are unusable no matter how "comfortable" they may feel. They do feel amazing, as long as I am not standing in them or skating on them (as long as they don't have to support me).
I ordered Superfeet Pro Hockey (Yellow) and Currex HockeyPro insoles. The Superfeet came in, and they don't work in the Jacksons. They cannot quite seat properly because of how narrow the footbed is, so the boot fit is adversely affected when they're in there, as the footbed is just pushing heavily across the side of the boot due to how narrow the bottom of the boot actually is. This does help heel fit a little bit, though, Lol.
I did put the SuperFeet in my SP-Teri KT2's, and they actually feel kind of glorious there, which almost feels like cruel irony. Totally different feel from the "old" SuperFeet Yellow (wider, less aggressive arch, tapered from outside to inside in the ball, thinner, etc.), and just standing on the floor I can absolutely feel a massive difference. So, I think I'm going to get blades mounted on those and see how they works.
The Currex HockeyPro Insoles are coming in tomorrow and I'll see if those work. Whichever ones work best I'll keep and return the others. There's a 60-day guarantee on both of them.
The reason to get Rapid Custom was to get the correct width and also get split sizing. I wanted full customs, but he kind of advised against it (not explicitely, but... heavily and obviously implied... over and over again).
If I decide to skate after this, I will just fly out to the Bay Area and get fitted at Harlick's.
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My experience with contacting Jackson directly was... interesting. Blatant rudeness and disregard while they CC'd everything up the corporate ladder, only to end up saying "talk to your fitter" (would have been most appreciated as a first reply).
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What you are saying makes complete sense.
I agree Jackson's website for rapid customs
https://jacksonultima.com/pages/custom
makes it sound like the "wide" last is wider if you order "Wide" - though it is obvious they do taper to the back.
You could try thinner insoles, but thick enough to avoid damaging your feet, but I suspect you have already tried that.
What tstop4me said:
If you ordered Rapid Custom, I assume you went to a Jackson authorized tech. Is that correct? If so, the tech is responsible for the measurements, tracings, and scans [if your tech has the Jackson scanner; the scanner gave wrong results for me]. And Jackson is responsible for proper execution. If they don't fit, I would expect a new pair that does or a refund.
Did you in fact go to a fitter Jackson recommended? If so, they should have realized the boots couldn't fit you, and if they sent properly done foot tracings and foot bottom moldings to Jackson, the factory should have realized that too, IMO. It usually works best if you are extremely polite and patient with manufacturers, but if all else fails, I suppose you can mention that you are posting your experience to many figure and hockey skating Internet forums. Only as a last resort consider contacting the BBB, the county and state consumer protection agencies, and state attorney general's office consumer protection department.
I suspect Harlick or Avanta could make custom boots that fit if you use their fitter, perhaps for less than you spend on lessons and ice time.
In the mean time, boots that are a bit too large can work, if you cut your own foam insoles (I've used a camping pad) to snugly fit the bottom, sides, and maybe back of your feet - but oversized boots are heavy and a bit clumsy.
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Nate, a quick read of all that made me think of my experience with Superfeet. For a while I took them out of my Harlicks, because I needed that extra room (and btw the interior description of the Jacksons has me appreciating Harlick even more!)
Eventually I was able to put them back in happily. They are the yellow, I believe? They came from the original boot owner.
With my next pair, for inlines, I tried the hockey Superfeet for the additional thickness since the boots are at least half a size too large per my fitting and current pair. (I wanted to use thin cotton socks for the inlines though, so it works.) They really had my arches aching and unhappy for the first hours in them! The hockey variety are shaped differently, for sure, and the darned things are kind of expensive to just get and hope for the best. I have another set that I forget the name of, but still Superfeet. I didn’t cut and try those yet though. They looked too wide in the heel cup as I recall?
Some of the arch pain was alleviated by the newly replaced tongue foam compressing a little, thankfully.
I love Harlicks, but the wait time is pretty brutal. My own customs are supposed to be completed in December so that I can get them while back in the states. So, that’s over a year if the deadline is even met. Bummer.
Oh, for the new pair I’m supposed to get custom Sidas insoles. I hope they are comfortable and wonderful for me. The fitter seemed very sold on them.
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I texted my pro and will see what he says about them modifying the boot or exchanging for a full custom.
EDIT: He will look at them and see what he can do when he's back in the shop later this month.
If I weren't trying to get a MIF and FS test done before I had this operation, I'd have just gone with Harlick Customs. But, I had a timetable. That has all blown up, of course, but I can't control all the variables, #LaughingIronically
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I've had the Rapid Custom Jacksons for a couple of months and have worn them about 25 minutes... most of which spent heat molding them. I doubt I will ever skate a session on them.
The footbed on the M and Wide are literally identical, so I have the same issue where the footbed isn't wide enough for my feet resulting in my being completely unable to get a balanced mounting with them, because it isn't "actually wide enough" for my foot. All they do is add a little more room accommodation in the upper, but it literally doesn't matter if the footbed is still too narrow for the foot of the person that has to wear them.
Practically speaking, they just send me the same "too narrow" boot and stamped it with a W instead of an M. Waste of money.
If I had known that, I wouldn't have bothered. I'd have just paid the $2-2.5K or so to fly out to Harlick and have them measure and build me a pair.
The back of the arch (before the heel) of the footbed for my SP-Teri boots is a whole quarter of an inch wider than the Wide Jacksons, which is literally identical in width to the Medium Width Jacksons.
And the heel is equally as narrow, so if I were to try to force myself to wear them, heel bumps and Achilles Tendonitis is probably a guarantee.
I re-read your above post.
* Why did you wait a couple of months before trying on your new boots? Generally, if there's a problem, you have a stronger case if you report the problem right away.
* Something's amiss if you previously had an M, ordered a W, and the footbeds are identical widths. When Jackson collapsed individual widths into dual widths, M was supposed to cover A & B (an A footbed with uppers heat-moldable to accommodate a B); and W was supposed to cover C & D (a C footbed with uppers heat-moldable to cover a D). See: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KT9ifFnxKOY.
* What other changes did you need that required a Rapid Custom over a stock, because stock is available in M and W? With stock boots on the Elite last, the heel is one width narrower than the ball. You typically go with Rapid Custom if the heel needs to be two or more widths narrower than the ball.
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I texted my pro and will see what he says about them modifying the boot or exchanging for a full custom.
EDIT: He will look at them and see what he can do when he's back in the shop later this month.
If I weren't trying to get a MIF and FS test done before I had this operation, I'd have just gone with Harlick Customs. But, I had a timetable. That has all blown up, of course, but I can't control all the variables, #LaughingIronically
(a) Is your tech indeed a Jackson authorized tech? If your boots don't fit, then either (1) your tech messed up, (2) Jackson messed up, or (3) both your tech and Jackson messed up. One grey area is your need for corrective insoles. But it's really the tech's responsibility to sort all this out. Techs (like mine) who do a large volume of business with Jackson have more clout when it comes to make-overs or refunds.
(b) Did Jackson rely on the Jackson scanner? If so, I can tell you that the Jackson scanner gave wrong results for me (I don't think it's a good design; and I think I know why it gave the wrong results for me.), and I decided to go with the sizing of the Jacksons I was currently wearing instead. But Jackson is responsible for the accuracy of their scanner, if your tech used one.
(c) Jackson's been in a bit of a mess. My tech told me that several of their most experienced senior managers died within the last couple of years. And Jackson's been bought up by CCM (or their parent holding company); so lots of the usual organizational flux surrounding integration into a large conglomerate.
(d) Harlick is not immune to screw-ups either. For many years, my coach has sworn by custom Harlicks for her advanced skaters (which I'm not). She's worn them for decades, since she was a competitive and show skater. But even before the pandemic, she had three skaters with messed up orders. Two skaters could wait, so Harlick made new ones from scratch. The third couldn't wait, so she got a refund, and bought a stock Riedell.
Along with supply-chain issues brought on by the pandemic, some of the mainstream boot companies have been plagued with experienced old-timers retiring or dying off.
ETA: One advantage of custom Harlick, if you can tolerate the long lead time, is that AFAICT they're the only boot maker that will handle prescription orthotics and custom boots as an integrated system.
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(a)Did Jackson rely on the Jackson scanner? If so, I can tell you that the Jackson scanner gave wrong results for me (I don't think it's a good design; and I think I know why it gave the wrong results for me.)
Could you elaborate on what is wrong with it, and what it did wrong for you?
BTW, does it do laser shape profiling, or does it try to estimate the foot shape from a finite set of projected camera views?
It would be wonderful if you could travel to the factory, be fit there, wait while the boots are manufactured, and check the fit, preferably on an in-factory ice rink, and have final adjusted made while there, all in the same day. But no one seems to do that. :(
Maybe one of you engineering folks could figure out a way to make that work. :) I bet you could get a lot of business.
Or make a kit that lets you create your own perfect fitting boots. I envision their making preliminary slightly oversized boots that otherwise match your measurements. You lace the boots up. Then you pour in a liquid foaming agent, which hardens, matching your feet exactly. Unlace, then cut the foam along the tongue, so you can take your feet out.
However, the lady I corresponded with who had a podiatrist do a laser scan of her feet, said that the podiatrist modified the scanned shape to match the way he felt the boots should reshape her feet, before sending the results on to a custom last maker. That was something he often did for other types of custom shoe. That implies that using a profiler or scanner, no matter how well designed, isn't always enough to produce good results for everyone, even if the boot maker manages to match the desired 3D shape. So my foam matching concept couldn't always work perfectly either.
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I re-read your above post.
* Why did you wait a couple of months before trying on your new boots?
I've had the boots over 2 months and the tech was on vacation for about 5 weeks of that. He knew I couldn't stake in the boots and we were making adjustments to see if we could get them to work. That's also why I didn't post a follow up on this topic until I made a final determination ;-)
* Something's amiss if you previously had an M, ordered a W, and the footbeds are identical widths.
Already seen. It's kind of illustrating the issue I'm having.
If you are sized for D width, you get a skate that is practically C width, perhaps with a little more room to accommodate a larger foot circumference, but the footbed width - the base of the skate that needs to support the foot so that you can mount blades and actually be balanced in the skate - is still C width. This is likely the same width of what used to be (and probably still is) a Medium Width Elite boot. With a C width footbed, my foot volume simply runs up the side of the boot - usually in the arch area - since there isn't enough surface area for your foot to sit [mostly] level on the footbed itself. In essence, your feet are biomechanically tilted inside of the boot, which is why it will always fall out for me when I stand on them. It doesn't matter how far outside I mount the blade.
You cannot feel this when wearing the boots without blades, or when heat molding, because of the amount of surface area contact the sole has with the ground. It only becomes [VERY immediately] obvious when they have to support you with blades mounted. The problem isn't even noticeable until after you've drilled holes and temp-mounted a blade to them.
* What other changes did you need that required a Rapid Custom over a stock, because stock is available in M and W? With stock boots on the Elite last, the heel is one width narrower than the ball. You typically go with Rapid Custom if the heel needs to be two or more widths narrower than the ball.
Split sizing. You cannot get that with stock boots. And this is not an option with boots like Edea, Risport, etc. so my options are expected limited as a result of this.
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(a) Is your tech indeed a Jackson authorized tech?
Yes. I had the sizing double checked by two other Pros, so that is not at issue. Like I said, as long as I don't have to stand on the boots with blades mounted, the sizing is fine. It only becomes an issue when I have to skate on them, because my foot is running up the boot due to the narrow footbed.
(b) Did Jackson rely on the Jackson scanner?
No one around here uses that.
(d) Harlick is not immune to screw-ups either. For many years, my coach has sworn by custom Harlicks for her advanced skaters (which I'm not). She's worn them for decades, since she was a competitive and show skater. But even before the pandemic, she had three skaters with messed up orders. Two skaters could wait, so Harlick made new ones from scratch. The third couldn't wait, so she got a refund, and bought a stock Riedell.
That's fine. As long as I can get the Teri's to sort of work, I will at least have a somewhat usable backup that hopefully won't kill me for days after I skate in them, and I'll be able to communicate with the company and ship the skates back and forth for adjustments or any modifications/fixes that are needed. As long as I can communicate with the company directly, that would be fine. And I don't mind flying out there to get fitted at the factory.
Waiting a months for boots seems like a small price to pay.
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Could you elaborate on what is wrong with it, and what it did wrong for you?
BTW, does it do laser shape profiling, or does it try to estimate the foot shape from a finite set of projected camera views?
I didn't have time to dig into the details of the scanner. It's a device that attaches to an iPad that the tech holds while walking around viewing my feet. I don't know whether it's a laser scanner, or works just from imaging. I didn't pursue further details because the scanning system per se is not what's flawed.
During the scanning, I was seated with my feet resting on a glass plate angled ~45 deg from the plane of the floor. That's the flaw. The scan is done with the feet essentially in a non-weight-bearing position only.
Jackson should know better. Back in 2014, I was fitted for Jacksons the old-fashioned way. Multiple measurements were made of my feet; and the peripheries of my feet were traced. But two sets of measurements and tracings were made according to Jackson's protocol: one set while I was sitting (non-weight-bearing); and a second set while I was standing (weight-bearing).
When I was younger, I had normal arches. But I've long since had flat feet due to fallen arches. So the size (particularly width at the ball) and shape of my feet vary significantly between non-weight-bearing and weight-bearing configurations: the arches flatten, the balls widen, and the heels are relatively narrow.
When my feet were fitted the old-fashioned way, the tech wasn't sure whether a stock boot would fit, or a Rapid Custom would be needed to accommodate the difference in width between ball and heel. He sent the measurements and tracings to Jackson; they decided a stock 8W would fit. And it did, with slight punching out of the front of the toebox. Good heel lock, no cramping or pinching.
I went for new boots at the end of 2022. I wanted my feet to be scanned in case my feet had changed, and a Rapid Custom might be called for. The scanner results gave the length of 8, ball width B, normal arches, and normal heel, which would be a 8M. No way would that fit. So I instructed the tech to order 8W. Again, with slight punching out of the front of the toebox, the fit is fine.
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However, the lady I corresponded with who had a podiatrist do a laser scan of her feet, said that the podiatrist modified the scanned shape to match the way he felt the boots should reshape her feet, before sending the results on to a custom last maker. That was something he often did for other types of custom shoe. That implies that using a profiler or scanner, no matter how well designed, isn't always enough to produce good results for everyone, even if the boot maker manages to match the desired 3D shape. So my foam matching concept couldn't always work perfectly either.
My tech does something similar when he does foot tracings. He told me that when he first started out, his aim was to do as accurate tracings as possible. But after a while, he learned that, depending on the manufacturer, the boots would be a bit too big or a bit too small. So he then learned to skew the pencil in or out, depending on the boot manufacturer.
Even with laser scanning technology, proper fitting is not straightforward, for some basic reasons. It's not the fit when the boots are new and the feet are stationary that are important; it's the fit when the boots are broken-in and the feet are skating. So either you need tight control of materials and manufacturing, along with an accurate predictive modelling algorithm ... or proper fitting remains a bit of an art and a lot of luck.
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That's fine. As long as I can get the Teri's to sort of work, I will at least have a somewhat usable backup that hopefully won't kill me for days after I skate in them, and I'll be able to communicate with the company and ship the skates back and forth for adjustments or any modifications/fixes that are needed. As long as I can communicate with the company directly, that would be fine. And I don't mind flying out there to get fitted at the factory.
Waiting a months for boots seems like a small price to pay.
<<Emphasis added>> In another forum, skaters have reported recent delivery times for custom Harlicks in excess of a year. One skater in June received an estimate of 15 months.
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<<Emphasis added>> In another forum, skaters have reported recent delivery times for custom Harlicks in excess of a year. One skater in June received an estimate of 15 months.
I'm willing to wait 15 months. I don't mind paying to expedite, either.
The Superfeet didn't work in either boot, so I'm sending them back. The Arch is a bit too high for me. However, the Currex work pretty nice in my stock SP Teri's so I'm going to see if I can adjust the mount, and just deal with those until I get the Harlick's in. I can spin well in them and jumps were fine. I just need the right blade moved out a tiny bit and I should be good to go until I get new boots in.
I'm super indifferent to the long delivery times. There is no other option for me, so I can't really feel any negative sentiment towards that :-P
I don't really want any boots from manufacturers I cannot work directly with. There is only so much a pro can do when it comes to that stuff.
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Nate, I wouldn’t necessarily try to expedite based on what I was told. At the fitting it was explained that this wouldn’t reliably cut off much time since anyone who expedites just has their boots placed at the top of the line at each production step… and not to bother. I suppose a lot of people try the expedite option?
I did actually ask about expediting it later, directly with Harlick in May, and the best that could be done was to assure mine are ready in December. That puts it at 13 or 14 months?
Like you, I’m totally willing to wait though. It’s good you can work with the SP Teris. I don’t actually have any real need for a custom pair, since I squeeze into or work with whatever the eBay gods will me. ::>) Properly fitting, suitable stiffness, and initially more comfortable boots would have made my feet a lot happier though.
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Graf’s national distributor (basically the equivalent of what SkatesUS is for Edea) is only a couple of hours away, and the company has been surprisingly responsive in answering all of my questions. They got him to reach out to me. I’m scheduling an appointment to go in and try some on, but I’m only buying full customs. They have a video of Felicia Zhang getting fitted. If they can make customs that work for her feet… mine will be a cakewalk.
It’s like 12 weeks for full customs, so they’d be arriving around when I am getting back on the ice. I think I’d need to buy a longer blade for them, though… I’ll probably get an Apex Elite, for better edge life.
They’re lighter than Harlick, which is probably not a bad thing given my history. That being said, my camel looked amazing with those heavy AF SP-Teri’s and I didn’t really feel the weight.
If the Jackson’s cannot be salvaged, I will exchange for Edea Piano, take only the boots without mounting or molding them and sell at a slight discount to recoup 80%+ of the costs…or donate to a higher level skaters at the university who needs economic aid.
For the moment, I’ve put my Pinnacles back on the Risports and will just limit my jumping. Hate those blades. They’re as tall as Mt. Everest.but they were the easiest to mount. Same holes, so I don’t have to pay $40+ to have a Pro do it.
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I wear Graf Edmonton Specials - the skate tech got them for a bargain price when they were being discontinued. The insole isn't anything to write home about - thin with no arch support. The boot took a little getting used to because the forward-bending support is much less than what I was wearing, but I could bend my knees/ankles without strain. The side support is awesome - no wobbling. The back of the boot is cut down sufficiently to allow foot pointing, but I've had lower backs on other brands. The heel cup is deeper than my allegedly-custom Harlicks.
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I wear Graf Edmonton Specials - the skate tech got them for a bargain price when they were being discontinued. The insole isn't anything to write home about - thin with no arch support. The boot took a little getting used to because the forward-bending support is much less than what I was wearing, but I could bend my knees/ankles without strain. The side support is awesome - no wobbling. The back of the boot is cut down sufficiently to allow foot pointing, but I've had lower backs on other brands. The heel cup is deeper than my allegedly-custom Harlicks.
Yea, I seen some of the Edmonton Special Classics on super sale at some retailers, but they only had 6L in men's sizing. Otherwise, I would have ordered just in case I could stumble upon a miracle, since I could just send them back if they didn't fit.
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During the scanning, I was seated with my feet resting on a glass plate angled ~45 deg from the plane of the floor. That's the flaw. The scan is done with the feet essentially in a non-weight-bearing position only.
I think it's a little more complicated. Many people feel pain, possibly indicative of damage, when their bare feet are bearing weight flat on the floor. That's the reason people many, perhaps most, people want insoles or orthotics in their shoes and boots.
Most of the people who go to podiatrists are quite possibly NOT comfortable in default configurations, and need insoles or orthotics that cause their feet NOT to collapse to natural full weight bearing configuration.
Jackson must be trying to eliminate those peoples' problem by making you non-weight bearing with, I presume, feet on a flat surface.
I personally feel quite comfortable in bare feet on floors, so I want to test in full weight bearing mode.
Some fitters compromise, and have your feet bear some weigh - e.g., in sitting position.
But realistically, I think the way you should test should depend on your feet and body, and that there is no good way to do it for everyone.
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I was given a pair of Graf Edmonton Specials, because a charity I was associated with received them as a donation. I guess they were of a size and stiffness that none of the people the charity served could use, so they were a fair number of years old.
One of the heels fell apart after a few months of use. I started looking online, and found that was a problem many people had reported.
Basically, the heels were created out of many layers of leather glued together, possibly with a base layer of wood.
I called Graf. They told me the boots were defective, or that I had screwed the blades on incorrectly. I wanted to replicate their glue to put it back together - but not only was the glue toxic and carcinogenic, but it had to be set in a high temperature controlled oven. Not the sort of thing you do at home.
I considered using Shoe Goo, but Graf wasn't willing to give any advice on it. I don't know if it is strong enough.
Graf reluctantly suggested I could bolt the heel together. (I guess I would have had to drill an indentation inside the boot, or the insole, so the the of the bolt wouldn't press against my foot.) I never got around to doing this, but found someone online who said they had done it, and that it had worked.
(Edmonton Specials are designed for quads. Way more than I needed - I was mostly doing Ice Dance.)
So you have one bad review from me. However, if other people are happy with them, that is good.
I will say that the Graf Blades, which I didn't use, seem to have a potential problem, last I looked. I think the mounting holes were NOT countersunk - which might make it difficult to accurately position the blades on the boot, and might make the mounting position unstable. But that isn't from experience, just a guess from a non-expert.
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from tstop4me:
(a) Is your tech indeed a Jackson authorized tech?
Yes.
Perhaps you should revisit talking to the Jackson factory again. Again, being very polite. It would be fairly unusual for custom boot maker not to back up their authorized techs. Though, as I said, I'm not sure "rapid custom" boots really are custom - it sounds like they are just heat molded.
CC'ing up the corporate ladder is not necessarily a bad sign.
BTW, talking to the pro you chose is NOT the same as talking to the factory. I think you have established that the pro was not very good, even if they are a Jackson authorized tech.
If Jackson is still reluctant, you could ask whether your being willing to travel to and from the Jackson factory would help. Obviously that's a cost. But Jackson really ought to back the boots up, and should be willing to refund your price, or make you a new pair of boots that do fit, one way or another. They have at least in the past been a very reputable boot maker.
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Rapid Customs are not Custom in that they are not built to tracings and skater specific measurements. They're Rapid Custom because that's the only way you can get a pair of boots where one boot is a half size smaller than the other. Stock Books don't ship with split sizing. The Pro wanted at least Rapid Custom to eliminate the risk of heel slippage that may be causing issues in the heel.
As for Jackson, they don't deal with customers directly so that is not an option. I'm not going to try that again.
Graf has two fairly robust screws going through the heel of their boots so I don't think layers splitting off is going to be an issue. Most skates screw the heels together (SP-Teri, Risport, Jackson, Graf, are all like this).
The pro is fine, and I have had the sizing rechecked by two other Pros so I know for a fact he didn't mess up there. The last is just not great for my wider feet. There is nothing wrong with the boots. They just won't work for me. There really is no one to blame. It's just a circumstance. I didn't establish anything, actually the opposite. So I'm confused by the repeat attempt to scapegoat him when I have had the sizing checked by two others who that that is fine. Rapid Custom is just two stock boots with different lengths. Nothing special. I knew the sizing before I ever went into the shop, it's just cheaper to order through the shop because they mount for free if you order through them. Outside of that, I would have ordered the same product myself, and so would the other two fitters I spoke to.
My situation has also evolved. I needed boots in earlier so that I could test. Since that is no longer on the cards due to me not being able to use them at all, my timetable has shifted; and so has my enthusiasm for "solving" issues - particularly when it's unsolvable without them building a whole new boot on a different last.
If the stock Graf Last feels like a good base for building a boot for my feet, the custom order will be put in immediately [on Saturday], unless by some miracle a stock boot works (their stock size is closer to the median length between my foot sizes, so that a possibility if the shape is fine). I like the idea of two lines of support for potential issues. Jackson only has one - and, as I've stated, there is only so much the Pro can do. I am not contacting their factory. That's as much as I'll say about that.
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Stock Large/Wide Graf Edmontons actually felt kind of good and the footbed is wider and more flat than the Jackson’s, which felt kind of amazing (more like a Klingbeil in fit). The heel is perfect.
I’m getting customs just to make sure they’re just right … and I have the time to wait.
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I think it's a little more complicated. Many people feel pain, possibly indicative of damage, when their bare feet are bearing weight flat on the floor. That's the reason people many, perhaps most, people want insoles or orthotics in their shoes and boots.
Most of the people who go to podiatrists are quite possibly NOT comfortable in default configurations, and need insoles or orthotics that cause their feet NOT to collapse to natural full weight bearing configuration.
Jackson must be trying to eliminate those peoples' problem by making you non-weight bearing with, I presume, feet on a flat surface.
I personally feel quite comfortable in bare feet on floors, so I want to test in full weight bearing mode.
Some fitters compromise, and have your feet bear some weigh - e.g., in sitting position.
But realistically, I think the way you should test should depend on your feet and body, and that there is no good way to do it for everyone.
You should re-read what I posted above. Before Jackson introduced their scanner, two sets of measurements and tracings were made: one in non-weight-bearing (sitting) and one in weight-bearing (standing) position. As I wrote, the old method got it right, the new method didn't.
The same could be done with a scanner. I didn't see the Aura scanner. But my tech told me that Aura takes three scans: one with the skater sitting, one with the skater standing straight, and one with the skater standing with ankle and knee bent.
A limited number of scans won't fully characterize the feet; and can't predict the fit with some unknown orthotic yet to be inserted. True. But two or more scans give a better characterization than a single non-weight-bearing scan; and will indicate arch issues that would likely need an orthotic.
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I have a little update:
A couple days ago I had an email from Harlick to get final confirmation of all the specs for the new boots! I’m excited that they must be working on them soon. ;D
As for having them heat moulded and the blades mounted or when I can retrieve them that’s another matter to figure out.
I feel a little bad for my current pair. They are very stinky, but are actually usually comfortable now, and they have served me well. :'( (I know, I’m silly about my attachment to inanimate objects.)
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I feel a little bad for my current pair. They are very stinky
There are ways to deodorize boots. I generally don't have that problem, because my feet don't sweat much, and maybe my sense of smell isn't very strong, but, for example, people use fungicides, vinegar, and/or baking soda. There are commercial products as well - a lot of hockey players really get into this. Anyway, other people on this forum could help more.
I wonder if there are potential related health issues if you don't fix such problems, because the stink might indicate the presence of high levels of fungus or bacteria.
But presumably you are much more concerned with other issues, like fit.
It's wonderful that Harlick is working on the new ones!
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Query, I’ve tried a lot of the usual tips and products. They still stink. :( :blank:
I never got a chance to use ozone. A skate tech said that was the only thing that works well.
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For many years now, I’m using 2 different boot dryers (as I stay in 2 different places):
1. With ozone and warm air
2. With normal air only
My boots always get dried after skating whether thy feel humid or not.
The result of both dryers is the same, the boots never stink.
Before I started using these dryers my boots always became smelly.
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I think it depends on what boots you wear, and how they are lined. Also, your degree of foot perspiration, etc.
Boots with lots of dense padding tend to stink. If you use a dryer, you may not notice it because the stench may be trapped in the inner layers of the padding - which dry much slower. Boots using increasingly dense padding act as a reservoir for perspiration/dead skin cells, etc.
When a boot feels dry, the inner layers of the padding may not actually be dry at that time.
I never used a heated dryer, as it promotes bacteria and fungal growth, and breakdown of the leather if the uppers are made of that material. Risport, Jackson, Edea, etc. They all stunk eventually. The only mitigating factor was how often I wore the boots and how hard I skated in them - basically, the degree of perspiration and other elements (like dead skin cells, etc.) that I was dumping into the boots.
The only boots that I've ever worn where I could - basically forever, no matter how hard I skated in them - just own and never worry about stench were those that were lined with leather on all inner surfaces (entire boot upper + tongue). Like SP Teri or Harlick Clarino leather lining. And I think Riedell has that option and Graf Edmonton/Washingtons come that way standard. Because the leather doesn't absorb moisture as readily, most of that stuff comes out of the boot when you remove your foot [and sock, if you wear one] from the boot. It's also easy to remove much of the residual stuff from the boot by simply opening it up after removing it from the foot and wiping the internal surface down with microfibre (takes... 30 seconds or less). With padded boots, most skating socks/stockings wick moisture outwards and into the padding, instead.
My 12-year-old pair of SP-Teri KT2 boots, which I have worn a TON (I was probably skating 20-25 hours a week), still smell like new boots. No padded boots I've ever owned (I cannot even count) could ever hold up that well to stench. The only thing that would develop a stench in those boots, were the SuperFeet insoles, and those get replaced ever few months so I basically used that as a barometer for when it was time to replace them. The inside of the boot (footbed) is leather with a metal heel, and there are also no "air channels" where things can fester (Risport, Edea).
I literally never experienced boot stench until I got those padded Risport RF2 Supers. Before, I wore Klingbeil & SP-Teri, so that wasn't an issue.
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The only boots that I've ever worn where I could - basically forever, no matter how hard I skated in them - just own and never worry about stench were those that were lined with leather on all inner surfaces (entire boot upper + tongue). Like SP Teri or Harlick Clarino leather lining. And I think Riedell has that option and Graf Edmonton/Washingtons come that way standard. Because the leather doesn't absorb moisture as readily, most of that stuff comes out of the boot when you remove your foot [and sock, if you wear one] from the boot. It's also easy to remove much of the residual stuff from the boot by simply opening it up after removing it from the foot and wiping the internal surface down with microfibre (takes... 30 seconds or less). With padded boots, most skating socks/stockings wick moisture outwards and into the padding, instead.
<<Emphasis added>> Clarino leather is not natural leather; it's synthetic: https://www.kuraray.com/company/history/story/clarino .
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Not clicking on that because it's irrelevant...
What matters isn't whether it's "real" or "synthetic" leather, but whether or not the material lining the inside of the boot easily allows perspiration, dead skin cells and other matter to be absorbed easily into the boot padding, which creates an environment where bacteria and fungi can thrive - and also increases the risk of infection if you have any sort of wound that come into contact with the boot (torn blisters, cuts, abrasions, etc.). The bad smell is simply a symptom of that underlying issue. Even if you use a dryer, it doesn't stop this from happening. Any time the boots get damp they will still smell. They just smell much less when they are dry :-P
Generally, you want this stuff wicked away from the foot/skin, but not INTO the material lining the boot itself, for the above mentioned reasons.
The clarino lining in some boots prevent this, to a fairly large degree, by virtue of that material being far less porous and absorbing than the cloth/mesh lining in other boots.
The denser the padding, the worse it gets, because no "dryer" can circulate air through the dense padding - nor can it remove any of the other matter that has been absorbed, or rubbed into the material. The inner layers of the padding dry only by exchanging moisture with the more superficial layers that have already been dried, but the dryers don't actually kill any bacteria or fungus - the latter of which often can have spores which exist in a dormant state until optimal temperature/moisture thresholds are reached. Washing that material out isn't really viable due to how the dense padding retains moisture, and how this can affect the long term viability of the boot itself (due to moisture retention). With Clarino lining, you can literally wipe down the inner surfaces with a mild mixture of water and soap (then air dry them) to keep all of this under check with ease. It basically took 20 seconds per boot after getting home from the rink.
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What matters isn't whether it's "real" or "synthetic" leather, but whether or not the material lining the inside of the boot easily allows perspiration, dead skin cells and other matter to be absorbed easily into the boot padding, which creates an environment where bacteria and fungi can thrive - and also increases the risk of infection if you have any sort of wound that come into contact with the boot (torn blisters, cuts, abrasions, etc.). The bad smell is simply a symptom of that underlying issue. Even if you use a dryer, it doesn't stop this from happening. Any time the boots get damp they will still smell. They just smell much less when they are dry :-P
We are in agreement here. It's just that when I read your above post (Reply #126), it seemed to imply that only real leather linings have these properties. I just wanted to point out that that's not so, as in fact corroborated by your experience with Clarino leather, which, despite its name, is not real leather.
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So if you had a completely impermeable, but washable layer next to the skin, it could prevent the problem.
Some hockey boots are actually washable. I wonder what materials they are made of.
I'm not sure how comfortable a boot made like that could be.
I suppose the alternative is to make the boots like normal washable clothing - completely permeable, so you can again wash them.
I'm not sure if you could design a boot like that, that provided adequate support.
I wonder if anyone has experimented with these things in figure skating boots.
I had previously concluded that if I bought new boots, I would like them to be padded with some sort of synthetic pile lining, because I like the way that feels. (My current boots have normal leather next to my [polypro] liner socks.) (I love pile jackets.) But now you have made me think that might not be a good idea. Many synthetic piles are washable, but the layers they were attached to, as well as the exterior of the boot, would have to be too. So would the insole - and you'd have to remove it so no fungus or bacteria would live underneath it. (I notice some hockey sites suggest doing that anyway, as a means of reducing stink.)
To what extent do wicking socks help? Are they enough, or do they only help a little?
I guess these issues exist with all non-washable shoes.
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Hockey Skates may have an advantage due to the materials they are constructed out of. I have never worn or owned any, so I'm just guessing there.
I think the inner material is the problem with figure skates. Making them comfortable without making them feel like you're skating with plastic around your feet. Multiiple brands have already moved to synthetic uppers and solves in some models, though.
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Another way to deal with the odor issue is to treat the materials with antimicrobial compounds. Topical sprays don't last long, but some materials have antimicrobial compounds embedded into the materials during the manufacture of the materials.
Jackson has this listing for my current pair of boots (https://jacksonultima.com/collections/boots/products/elite-5362):
"High performance microfiber lining with memory foam is moisture wicking and treated with anti-bacterial properties to keep feet warm and comfortable,providing initial try-on comfort."
No further details on their anti-bacterial treatment.
There are many variables at play, of course. But I wore my previous pair of Jackson Elites (lined with memory foam and microfiber) for ~7 yrs without odor problems. Of course, I could just be inured to my own stench. But I've also repaired boots for four other skaters that I'm friends with (including an ice dancer who skated without socks for ~ 5 yrs in the same pair of boots). They all wore Jacksons, and I didn't notice any odious stench from any of them.
These are small numbers, of course. It'll be interesting to hear from the forum members who routinely service skates for a variety of customers.
ETA: I've spun off a separate thread, since it's getting way off track for this present thread.
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For many years now, I’m using 2 different boot dryers (as I stay in 2 different places):
1. With ozone and warm air
2. With normal air only
My boots always get dried after skating whether thy feel humid or not.
The result of both dryers is the same, the boots never stink.
Before I started using these dryers my boots always became smelly.
Okay, I need a link please? ;) Ozone especially would be helpful, I think.
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Okay, I need a link please? ;) Ozone especially would be helpful, I think.
Just be aware that ozone attacks and degrades some materials (further exacerbated by UV light in some units). There are a lot of variables: specific material, concentration of ozone, exposure time, temperature, .... With your old boots, maybe worth trying. But I'd be reticent to experiment on a spanking new pair of custom Harlicks.
Also, make sure the room is well ventilated. Ozone is not something you want to inhale.
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Okay, I need a link please? ;) Ozone especially would be helpful, I think.
I bought the Shoefresh in Europe:
https://www.shoefresh.eu/en/service/werking/ (https://www.shoefresh.eu/en/service/werking/)
As mentioned before, use it in a well ventilated room.
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Okay, I need a link please? ;) Ozone especially would be helpful, I think.
Ebay.de
Search ozongenerator
I have tried Ozongenerator, freezing to -20C over night and different odors. None of them didn't remove the bad smell. It comes back when they have been in foot and you have sweated. What I have tested, regularly renewed Smellwell inserts has been so far the best solution to hide the smell. https://smellwell.com
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My brother once looked up the the ingredients of a particular deodorant, and found that one of the chemicals suppressed the human sense of smell. That's another approach. :) Of course, it would probably only affect one's own sense of smell, and it wouldn't get rid of the potentially harmful bacteria.
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My brother once looked up the the ingredients of a particular deodorant, and found that one of the chemicals suppressed the human sense of smell. That's another approach. :) Of course, it would probably only affect one's own sense of smell, and it wouldn't get rid of the potentially harmful bacteria.
:D
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My brother once looked up the the ingredients of a particular deodorant, and found that one of the chemicals suppressed the human sense of smell. That's another approach. :) Of course, it would probably only affect one's own sense of smell, and it wouldn't get rid of the potentially harmful bacteria.
Haha. Kind of ingenious. They know most people will err on the side of kindness and just not mention it if they smell you, so as long as you don't smell yourself you will think it's working well.
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My brother once looked up the the ingredients of a particular deodorant, and found that one of the chemicals suppressed the human sense of smell. That's another approach. :) Of course, it would probably only affect one's own sense of smell, and it wouldn't get rid of the potentially harmful bacteria.
Actually, the more interesting question is whether the chemical would as well numb the sense of smell in people near the person wearing the deodorant. That wouldn't be too far fetched since some deodorants have fragrances to mask the stink, and some fragrances are readily sniffed out by people near the wearer.
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Actually, the more interesting question is whether the chemical would as well numb the sense of smell in people near the person wearing the deodorant. That wouldn't be too far fetched since some deodorants have fragrances to mask the stink, and some fragrances are readily sniffed out by people near the wearer.
Of course, it is also possible that it requires a long time exposure to suppress the sense of smell.
I don't know which deodorant or which chemical he looked up, so I can't look that up.
There is a distinction between deodorants, which try to mask the stink by adding a strong fragrance, and antiperspirants, which suppress the sweat. Some products do both. I understand there are people who apply antiperspirants and perhaps deodorants to their feet. I don't know if there are medical consequences. (I remember reading that some people have bad reactions to some antiperspirant ingredients.)
And there are even medications which try to suppress body odor. I'm not sure who prescribes them, or could answer the question about medical consequences - maybe a dermatologist???
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All the boots and blades are in, so I get to see what works next weekend.
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Graf Edmonton Customs: Amazing. Wish people around here actually sold them, cause I probably would have moved over to them and stuck with them 5-7 years ago. I had asked about them, but it is generally too inconvenient to travel and get fitted for them. This situation is sort of a blessing in that it got so ridiculous that I said screw it and just dealt with it. Now that they have all of my measurements and know what options I ordered, it will be easy moving forwards since I can just tell them who I am and they will build another pair of the same boots and can ship directly to me.
Jackson Supreme: I'm about 98.6% sure that - regardless of which sizes were stamped in the previous pair of Jackson boots - they were at least a half size too long on both boots. I actually had to go down from a 10" to a 9.75" blade, cause the same blades were hanging off the back of the second pair of boots (but had a little under quarter inch slack on the previous pair) - even the left boot, which is literally [supposed to be] the same size as the previous boot (only the right boot is a different size, though the second pair if an entirely new pair). Even the top of the boot fits better. I could stick 3-4 fingers down the top of the previous pair, even when I couldn't tie them any tighter.
One of the fitters that I spoke to about the first pair did say the boots were "too big," but it's so hard to accept that when the boots themselves are gaslighting you so hard due to being stamped with the correct size. I'm chalking it down to some serious manufacturing consistency/quality control issues. Luckily, I won't have to order another pair of their boots in the future.
I almost wanted to reject them out of principle, but I prefer to have a backup pair. All of the Risports that I were using as backups are dead, and I while I still have my SP-Teri's, they feel like they're 20lbs per boot. The Jacksons aren't as good as the Grafs, but they are usable now. At least now I won't be pissed when the airport decides to lose my luggage again, when leisure traveling.
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So glad to hear you like the Grafs! It's such a relief when you find boots that are right for your feet.
Very interesting about the Jackson sizes. Jackson has a chart that lists what blade length is expected for each boot size--it would be interesting to compare the old and new Jacksons with the chart.
https://skaterslanding.com/pages/jackson-boot-size-chart (https://skaterslanding.com/pages/jackson-boot-size-chart)
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Having had a bad experience myself with a Graf Edmonston Special boot whose heel came apart, and having corresponded with someone who had a similar problem with one of his Edmonton special boots, it is really, really important that you use as long a screw as you can (without penetrating into the insole area) to mount the blade. Did they come with Graf mounting screws? If so, maybe they are properly designed and sized for the boot.
Then again, I had an older pair, whose heel was made from glued-together leather layers underneath a wood base. I think they make them differently now, so it might no longer be a problem.
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Having had a bad experience myself with a Graf Edmonston Special boot whose heel came apart, and having corresponded with someone who had a similar problem with one of his Edmonton special boots, it is really, really important that you use as long a screw as you can (without penetrating into the insole area) to mount the blade. Did they come with Graf mounting screws? If so, maybe they are properly designed and sized for the boot.
Then again, I had an older pair, whose heel was made from glued-together leather layers underneath a wood base. I think they make them differently now, so it might no longer be a problem.
They came with a full set of Graf Screws and he gave me an extra backup set. I'm not sure if they are different. I didn't get the composite/lightweight/thin sole, so I don't think they need special screws.
The heel has screws going through it to keep everything together like Jackson/Risport/SP-Teri boots do. The construction plan seem pretty standard compared to everything else I can compare to here.
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So glad to hear you like the Grafs! It's such a relief when you find boots that are right for your feet.
Very interesting about the Jackson sizes. Jackson has a chart that lists what blade length is expected for each boot size--it would be interesting to compare the old and new Jacksons with the chart.
https://skaterslanding.com/pages/jackson-boot-size-chart (https://skaterslanding.com/pages/jackson-boot-size-chart)
I honestly think it was just a production issue.
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I have an update!
We booked a trip back home, and I had my mother call Harlick. They see no problem getting the boots sent to the fitter at least a week before I fly in. I’m making an appointment for the heat moulding and now just need to decide the best way to have the new blades there and ready for mounting. (I left them at home but will fly in to the city and be there the first couple of days. I’ll have my mother mail them to the shop or my sister in law.)
So exciting!
Well, not the part of breaking in super stiff new boots if I have a lesson or two with Coach Cheerful, but hopefully I can manage something. I think I am leaving my current pair here due to the need for space and heft bringing a lot of missed items to Germany. :( I’d planned to have those sharpened by Too Sharp and as a backup for lessons, but that is a lot of luggage space/weight.
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I think I am leaving my current pair here due to the need for space and heft bringing a lot of missed items to Germany. :( I’d planned to have those sharpened by Too Sharp and as a backup for lessons, but that is a lot of luggage space/weight.
Since you're handy with tools, you could demount the blades and bring just the blades with you for sharpening.
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Not a bad idea, Tstop, but I should be back again in the summer and thought it made sense to just bring them at that time since my tech is a long drive away too. There is always so much to fit into a visit, and they feel good with the Pro-Filer.
Hmmm.
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Albany,
Send your current skates to me and I sharpen them meanwhile you are travelling. Shipping costs something, but my labor not.
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Kaitsu, I am certainly not sending them without paying a fair amount. PM me, and let’s see how far apart we are?
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I’ve decided to leave my current skates behind when I go to NY. I also saw that my home club there is having their yearly competition mid-visit. I’m thinking to dust off my old program and sign up even though I hardly skate anymore and will be in new, very stiff boots.
Wish me luck!
I need it btw. All of 2024 has been a disaster of illness, accidents, and deaths. I currently am typing with a puffy awful black eye and other minor wounds from a stupid biking accident yesterday. I’m afraid to leave the house at this point, pretty much (or to get near the stairs or shower.) 88)
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Get well, Alba!
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Get well, Alba!
Thank you Query. I missed this comment until now, sorry. I’m doing a lot better but not great still.
I’m really excited about the new skates.
I also did sign up for my club’s competition. My NY coach doesn’t think I’ll be against anyone though, so it’s more of a showcase. I should add time and elements to my old program since I’m doing silver this time (for the Bucharest Open I kept my bronze program and music since I had even less chance to make changes for silver even though Coach Awesome had some suggestions and critiques… not much can be done a day or two beforehand. :-\)
I have very little time on the ice in the few weeks before it for practicing or learning the changes. My German coach is enthusiastic about it all. She says she has ideas. :)
Now I’m mostly just nervous about using new boots to compete! I’m considering bringing the old skates just in case, but we have a lot to pack and bring back making that backup a bit crazy. I’m not even likely to take my competition dress since it is rather heavy… a cheap black leotard and wrap dance skirt will work??? I’ll see…
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My NY coach doesn’t think I’ll be against anyone though
I hope you take first place! :)
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I hope you take first place! :)
Haha, If I don’t that would be a bit sad if I’m the only one in the category. ;D ;D ;D
I would love to have some others along with me, and my biggest goal is to look prettier (movements) than last season with my silly airplane arms. ;D
I had to email the club and ask for the requirements, because I couldn’t for the life of me find them to make sure I have things correct for silver there. Google gets me information, but I can’t be sure it is correct for that particular event. It’s so confusing!
I’m excited right now, because my husband just agreed that I can sign up for Oberstdorf this year! I’m so much more motivated now! It’s a long drive but straight down one autobahn from us, very simple, and he is interested to sight see. :) :) :)
I’m in the city for two more days before the boot appointment than I realised, so I have decided to bring my current pair for sure so I can skate a bit at either Wollman, Manhattan West, or World Ice. Depending on plans with friends and family perhaps all three, haha. Then freestyle at City Ice Pavillion to see how the new boots and blades feel.
I’ve never been to Wollman but might meet up with a skating buddy who loves the atmosphere. It’s more of a trek for me though. World Ice is walking distance, and Manhattan West is right outside the building that some good friends live in, so those are most likely. I can’t wait!
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My mother talked to Sophie at Harlick for me yesterday, because I can’t call from here, and my boots are supposed to make it to NY in time. I’m really excited!
Hopefully I can break them in enough to wear at the competition, but I’m not sure. That’s a new experience to me to have brand new boots, and I was told by the fitter to expect a month… back when I was skating many more hours a week than I do now. :-\ Perhaps I’ll just put them on for photos. ;D
Coach Cheerful says she’ll help me with the break in during lessons while I’m there. All I know is to wear them with guards at home, and it seemed like briefly doing some stick & puck was amazing for knee bend. So, I’ll see if I can do that.
The new dream are skates modelled off of an Edwardian pair of that go farther up the calf and button for the upper half. Saving up for those, but I guess it’ll be a few years…
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I get confused easily. I thought it took a year for Harlick customs to be made? Or is this not the custom pair?
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I get confused easily. I thought it took a year for Harlick customs to be made? Or is this not the custom pair?
Oh… it is still the same custom pair I ordered at the beginning of October 2022.
I’d have posted photos here already. ;) Soon now though!
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I have an update!
Yesterday Harlick did a live video, and I saw my boots!
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For your sake, I hope the video was not a deep fake! Hard to imagine Harlick is still in business; not sure how many skaters can tolerate nearly a 1-1/2 yr delivery time. Here's hoping they fit out of the box.
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For your sake, I hope the video was not a deep fake! Hard to imagine Harlick is still in business; not sure how many skaters can tolerate nearly a 1-1/2 yr delivery time. Here's hoping they fit out of the box.
Just imagine boots ordered for a growing child. ::>)
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Today I had the kind of skate that made me question continuing, but when I arrived home a saw a notification and cheered up significantly: Video of them complete!
I love how they look, hope they feel good, and don’t break me trying to break them in. ;D
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Okay... I'm swamped with travelling, paperwork and appointments, and more. Now the report on getting my skates. :)
I've been pretty comfortable in my (aggressively stretched) old pair, but these felt far more plush and good on my feet than I ever imagined. These are more like sneakers. They feel nothing like my old boots. Heat moulding made this even better. There were no pressure spots, not even on the ankle bones, and the top edges didn't cut in.
Those narrow Harlick laces killed my fingers and were hard to pull tight and keep tight. For the first fifteen minutes I had arch cramps until I was able to tighten the laces enough.
When I stepped on the ice I felt a little strange, and it was clear there was a slight adjustment in blade position compared to before to get used to. I couldn't spin for a while. (I was only on the ice half an hour, and I wish I had more time, because I was doing some sit and camel spins by the end.)
They don't feel too stiff (the triple duo-bond) although I acknowledge they probably hinder bend and pointing toes. I actually tried undoing a hook at some point in the session, as some people say to do when breaking in boots, but right away I went back to fully laced.
Unfortunately I had computer and internet issues all evening, so photos must wait. :-\
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That's great about the boots!
Perhaps any figure skate laces of the right size might work. Unless Harlicks require thin laces. (Hockey laces are too wide for my boots.)
Also, do any of the pro shops near you, or other shoe or boot stores, sell "lace pullers". Basically just a hook. (So other hook tools might do.) Makes it very easy to pull laces tight. I used them for a while, before I discovered that round nylon utility cord of the right width is very easy on the fingers, and lasts almost forever. Though I recently replaced mine, because when nylon cord stretches after a few years or so, it becomes stiffer and harder to handle. A bit of a nuisance, because I had to melt the ends so I could push them through the holes - this time I used an electric burner, because I couldn't be bothered to buy matches.
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Those narrow Harlick laces killed my fingers and were hard to pull tight and keep tight. For the first fifteen minutes I had arch cramps until I was able to tighten the laces enough.
Several years ago, I ran field trials for Derby Laces (I'm not affiliated with them, and I receive no compensation from them). Several skaters wore Harlicks and were always griping about the Harlick laces: cut their fingers and came untied easily. Derby has laces in a variety of widths. Their "EDGE" laces fit Harlick boots well, don't cut fingers, stay tied, and are durable: https://derbylaces.com/product-category/derby-laces/waxed-edge-laces-4-5mm/. The field testers were really happy with them. The EDGE laces are wider than the Harlick laces, but not so wide that they are difficult to pass through the eyelets (Harlick eyelets have a smaller diameter than most other brands).
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That's great about the boots!
Perhaps any figure skate laces of the right size might work. Unless Harlicks require thin laces. (Hockey laces are too wide for my boots.)
Also, do any of the pro shops near you, or other shoe or boot stores, sell "lace pullers". Basically just a hook. (So other hook tools might do.) Makes it very easy to pull laces tight. I used them for a while, before I discovered that round nylon utility cord of the right width is very easy on the fingers, and lasts almost forever. Though I recently replaced mine, because when nylon cord stretches after a few years or so, it becomes stiffer and harder to handle. A bit of a nuisance, because I had to melt the ends so I could push them through the holes - this time I used an electric burner, because I couldn't be bothered to buy matches.
I just didn’t have time to put in new laces unless I wanted to miss the entire session. Also, I wanted to dye them. I just put them in and feel much better. I like Jerry’s and have more on the way.
I do have a lace puller around somewhere, but I never used it and have no idea where I hid it.
The town rink isn’t frozen enough yet today to try them again, but in the house right now they feel very nice. Off ice I have no trouble bending my knees and ankles as much as I’m supposed to even for a proper sit spin, but we’ll see about on ice.
I have not had any trouble with various laces in Harlick eyelets.
Tstop, I’ve heard good things about Derby. I’ve already ordered more Jerry’s, but I have some Derby’s on hand too. I just don’t want the rainbow colours of them for this pair and was glad to find I had one more set that I could colour match. My rainbows can go on the old white skates more nicely when I’m ready to switch to quirky. :)
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Tstop, I’ve heard good things about Derby. I’ve already ordered more Jerry’s, but I have some Derby’s on hand too. I just don’t want the rainbow colours of them for this pair and was glad to find I had one more set that I could colour match. My rainbows can go on the old white skates more nicely when I’m ready to switch to quirky. :)
OK If you have the rainbow, then you likely have the wider "CORE" laces. Probably OK on old Harlicks, because the eyelets have likely been enlarged through wear. But maybe a bit snug on a new pair (but also a matter of personal preference; the field testers for Harlicks I worked with preferred the EDGE to the CORE). Glad your new skates are working out, especially after such a long wait.
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Dying your laces sounds like a lot of work! :)
I've noticed a lot of skaters recently adding sparkles to their clothing and boots. And they spend a lot of work doing it, gluing one sparkle stone at a time. (There must be easier ways to do that! Like some way to add a sheet full of evenly spaced sparkles at once...)
Would rainbow colors be so bad? ::>)
Anyway, glad you are happier now. I guess that if you have brand new boots, you don't want to spoil the appearance with laces of the "wrong" color.
If you use boot covers, you can avoid making marks on your new boots. I used to do that. But after 20 some years with my current broken down boots, it stopped seeming worth it.
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Dying the laces isn't much of a bother actually. I glued crystals on Daughter's heels for her last pair, and that took a couple hours?
Rainbow is nice, and that's why I bought them, but not for this pair right now especially with competing ahead. It doesn't go well with my outfit. Too bad I nearly sliced a lace today when it untied and went under a newly sharpened blade. More arrive later in the week, but I need to get through the weekend!
Thicker laces don't seem to be a problem. The holes look the same as on Klingbiels if nothing else to compare to?
Today Too Sharp kindly finished the permanent mount of the blades for me. I felt so good in the new skates that I can barely imagine using the old pair. :o I brought both today expecting to switch to the old before my (cancelled) lesson. Then I found myself steady and happy from the very start. Spins have suffered, but they are coming back faster than I expected, and the one month break in seems more like a one hour. Awesome!
I still need to write more and post photos, but not tonight. We have a nasty winter storm beginning that may ruin my plans for a lesson tomorrow morning or evening or even any practice. If that is the case I'll be so unprepared for the competition on Sunday that I could cry. Yikes.
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The new boots are fantastic! :love:
I skated a couple hours and decided to use them for the competition already. I actually never put my old skates on again since trying out the new ones. I thought they were comfortable these days, but with the new pair it’s hard to imagine using them anymore even on ponds or in slush.
Once I had my preferred laces in they were great. Coach Cheerful said I skated better in the new pair, and I thought so too. I felt like I was more in contact with the ice (especially in my heels for some reason) and had better control once I was used to the slight difference in feel of the blade placement. Spins suffered for sure but began to come back alright with time.
Despite the 3 layer super stiff construction I could flex happily quite quickly, and I am sooooo glad I didn’t go for a reduced level. The woman that got gold in our adult silver category was really surprised I was competing in such new boots. 8)
I probably should have just had the backstays in the same grey, but I am undecided about that. I adore the grey suede so much. It seems to mostly read as pale tan in photos or videos. That’s kind of perfect.
The tech at the shop was surprised by the half lined tongues saying he hadn’t seen that from them before. I found it odd also, because I thought my inline pair only had it done that way due to it being a retrofit. I’d guess that it is something done to allow for replacing foam in the long term viewing it as a seamstress. If the lining leather isn’t stitched down and full length then the tongue padding can be replaced without taking the whole piece out, and that makes sense.
Despite only about 3 hours in them the chem glaze wore off in a spot from lunges on the left sole. Water clearly leaked in where Too Sharp added more screws also, but not where the other tech placed screws. I melted beeswax there and hope it’s okay now. The glaze has a bit of hairline cracks and seems thinner, like I saw on some other pairs, but my original pair had a lovely robust glaze. I hope it holds up better than I fear.
I’m already dreaming of ideas for another pair… whenever that might be. I’d like them tall like old school boots and in white pebble perhaps? ;D There’s plenty of time, hah! I think some design with crystals where Harlick does the custom cutouts might be nice. The crystals are my favourite part aside from the suede colour.