How to get good surface finish to blades and how they look?

[Kaitsu]

New thread opened to share tips and toughs how to improve surface finish on skate blades sharpening. Power tool users can example share their experiences from the wheel types what they use or have tried. Experiences from the hand held polishing tools or methods would be also interesting to hear. Sharing example pictures and videos from the good and poor sharpening are very welcome.

There are already some post on thread http://skatingforums.com/index.php?topic=8453.100 but I will try to contact moderator that she/he would move some post from that thread into this thread.

Ultima Matrix blades  https://youtu.be/x52rFQP-jiU
John Wilson blades  https://youtu.be/Pd0uqrFR_T8

It would be interesting to hear if someone has experiences from the wheels which fits to Wissota. Experiences from the figure skates and hockey skates are both interesting.

[Isk8NYC]

Mod Reply:  Specify which posts/thread drift should be moved to a new topic.  Be aware that post are organized by date after moving/merging topics, so these posts will be a the end of the discussion. ☺

[Kaitsu]

Post moved from thread http://skatingforums.com/index.php?reportsent;topic=8453.msg103406#msg103406

Re: Wissota powered skate sharpener review
« Reply #108 on: April 10, 2021, 01:40:27 PM »


During the years I have tried so many different chemicals to improve surface finish. I have tried example, pure water, WD-40 + several other spay oils, Chemico valve lapping paste, ski waxes, Accu-Lube stick, Blackstone Fine Shine, metal polishing wax, etc. etc. Main conclusion has been that almost all of them improves less or more surface finish. They main issue is that most of the ingress very deep in to the wheel and you need dress quite much from the wheel before it gets clean. For this reason I prefer to use "cutting oil" which viscosity is close to water.

I know this is anyhow wheel type and size dependent. Example Blackstone Fine Shine didn't work in my IE, but in Blackstone and hockey skates it worked well. Its viscosity and consistency was very close to 10W-30 motor oil. I have to say that Fine Shine bottle was not mine own, so I cannot be 100% sure if content really Fine Shine or has the skate tech filled it by him selves.

Unfortunately I have quite many big projects ongoing so I could not make you comparison with / without polishing wax finishing. Here is anyhow link to picture where I sharpened one pair of skates by using different polishing wax on both blades. In right foot blade used wax which is for aluminum and left foot blade I finished by using wax which is for silver and gold. I could not identify any differences on the surface finish. If you can see some differences in the pictures, it is impossible to say if they are from different view angle, light reflection or camera´s own adjustments. I should have some fixture which would ensure that pictures from left and right foot has been taken as identical setup as possible. Even this is not 100% perfect test, I can confirm that polishing wax was not bad at all. It is not anyhow going to be something what I use.

It is recommeded to download the picture so that you can zoom in to different areas of the blades.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/0alp5m8ev5aobnu/Polishing%20wax%20test%20IE%4050Hz.jpg?dl=0

What comes to the surface finish, I would say that its quite obvious that chatter-marks and coarse grinding will not improve the glide. I have one skater whom used to bring his skates for me. From my proposal they started to sharpen skates in one another skate tech (due long distance). Skater was happy for his skates until they did come to competitions which were kept by our club. Father of the skater did see me on the rink and he asked if I would have time to sharpen their skates. There was some hassle why their skates were not sharpened well before competitions. I said that I can do them, but there is always risks if you change the skate tech just before your competition day. They said that skates are so dull that they rather take the risk than try to survive over the competition with the dull skates. In next day I asked their feelings about the skates. They said that skates glide is so much better that the speed what you can gain is almost scaring. I didn't change ROH, so mainly improvement did come from the better surface finish. Since that they have used again my sharpenings.

It is anyhow fact that quite many skaters don´t recognize any difference in the skates even you believe that improvement what you have made is so remarkable that skater should notice the difference already in the first stroke. This should not anyhow be any excuse for skate techs to make poor quality. Unfortunate fact is that too many skate tech makes sharpening s just to earn money and not to help skaters with best possible sharpening what they can do.

Added after the original posting:
I tried some new mixture for another pair of Wilson blades. I was more satisfied to this new mixture than metal polishing wax. Link to new picture: https://www.dropbox.com/s/hhg7ihzeb7g7bjd/Polishing%20test%20IE%4050Hz%20-%20own%20mixture.jpg?dl=0

[Bill_S]

Interesting.

You are getting a nice sheen on the metal with your methods.

Because some of the methods use liquid cutting fluids, are you getting any fling of oils from the fast-turning grinding wheel?

[supersharp]

Post moved from thread http://skatingforums.com/index.php?reportsent;topic=8453.msg103406#msg103406

Re: Wissota powered skate sharpener review
« Reply #108 on: April 10, 2021, 01:40:27 PM »

Added after the original posting:
I tried some new mixture for another pair of Wilson blades. I was more satisfied to this new mixture than metal polishing wax. Link to new picture: https://www.dropbox.com/s/hhg7ihzeb7g7bjd/Polishing%20test%20IE%4050Hz%20-%20own%20mixture.jpg?dl=0

Please tell us more about your new moisture. The results look beautiful.

[Kaitsu]

Because some of the methods use liquid cutting fluids, are you getting any fling of oils from the fast-turning grinding wheel?

The amount of liquids are so small and I put them always on blade, that I do not have any problems to getting dirty. Liquids sticks either to steel dust or wheel or it is sucked by vacuum cleaner.
Attached picture from my wheel housing which is not cleaned for couple months. In that time I have tried many kind of liquids and waxes.

Applying too thick or too much "cutting liquid" or waxes clogs the fine wheels and wheel is not cutting steel anymore. When its not cutting anymore, wheel starts to "surf" on blade and that leads usually not so sharp edges. What I have experiences, same "cutting liquids" which works in IE does not work so well in Wissota and/or opposite.

[Bill_S]

The lack of slurry slung from the wheel is good to hear -  otherwise that would be a major concern, especially with white figure skating boots.

I addition to enhancing the finish, a liquid or melting wax might impart a little extra edge life to the blades too. The thin edge might be cooled enough by the liquid or wax to resist loosing temper at the very edge. That's where the heat of grinding has a very small conductance path to be absorbed into the "heat sink" that is the rest of the blade.

Your experiments show that it is possible to get a smoother finish. These kinds of experiments are intriguing.

[Kaitsu]

Here is example from the poor sharpening. Most probable reason is dull grinding wheel. Those whom will make "plug & play" sharpening s wants often save money in means of wheel wear. In the other words, they will sharpen several skates without dressing the wheel. For the skaters it mean that he/she skates with the "sandpapers". I wonder why so skaters does not pay attention for this, even it would be so easy to identify.

https://youtu.be/lr691LHC8Ms

Generally speaking sharpening of the figure skates seems to be comparable to the magic. People are not so willing to open their tricks secrets.

[Bill_S]

Goodness, that's dramatically bad! The sound while rubbing down the length tells it all.

[supersharp]

That’s pretty close to the finish our rink produces on carbon steel blades. The finish they produce on stainless hockey blades is not as bad.

Skaters who decide they “can’t wait” to get their skates sharpened (I’m occasionally out of town, rarely more than a few days at a time) have reported that carbon steel blades sharpened by the rink they feel like they are skating through sand. And they also get a tiny roll-off on the tail of the blade . Edges will be ground to match existing level, which is great if the edges were level, but not so great if they were uneven.

I’d rather skate on dull edges any day, although I suppose you could get a good workout by skating on blades with limited glide. 

[Kaitsu]

Latest example from the poor figure skate sharpening. How many mistakes you can find?
In addition to most classical mistakes, these blades had something what I have never seen before. As usual, story tells that these blades have been always sharpened by professional figure skate technician. Based on what I can see, there has been possibly several experts or someone has used Dremmel to "finish" the grinding.

https://youtu.be/pm4OuhVvnF8

[supersharp]

Wow, great example of terrible work.  Consistently terrible, too, since they really put in the time to roll up that heel while they played with multiple edge angles.  Plus they nicked the drag pick (not much and probably not important, but still, it's something we should be avoiding).  That front multi-profile must feel really odd as you roll forward.  It's almost like a serrated edge up there. I guess if you skate fast enough, the change in curvature will go by pretty quickly, and typically only really be felt on spin and jump entrances.  Of course, what is it that makes a good spin or jump, generally?  A good entrance.  EEEEK.

 The part that bothers me the most is that the tech must have not even looked at the blades after sharpening to not notice the problem.  Or the first person that sharpened them had a small-diameter wheel, the next had a medium-diameter wheel, and the third had a large-diameter wheel.

When I was first learning to skate, I had a friend that I skated with (still do) who had the loveliest forward spins.  This was at a level when achieving a one-foot spin was what we all really, really wanted to do.  Somehow, she could just rotate and rotate.  She said she just felt like she was on the head of a nail, all she did was stand there.

A few months later when I started sharpening skates, she gave me her blades to sharpen.  Right at the front of that skate, there was a flat spot where someone had ground the roundness off of her profile.  Interesting.  I explained that her blade curvature had been damaged, but also that she needed new blades anyway because they were getting old.  New blades...and spinning was never the same for her again.  She had learned how to use her "customized" equipment, but she hadn't really learned how to set up or control a spin.  The silver lining was that turns on her left foot became much smoother. 

After that experience, she has never had the rink or the local sports shop (now closed) sharpen her skates again. 

[Query]

That last example looks to me like someone messed it up on purpose, so they could make that video.

But I could be wrong.

[Kaitsu]

That last example looks to me like someone messed it up on purpose, so they could make that video.

Thanx man, it´s pleasure to see how much I enjoy trust of yours 

Skates were purchased online. As purchaser had previous experiences from the ruined blades, they were asking from the seller about skates sharpening history. Seller was assuring (like they always do) that skates has been always sharpened in local professional figure skate tech. I do not know if they asked pictures from the blades frontal area, like I always advice people to do when they buy used skates. Nevertheless when they received the skates, purchaser was contacting me. He wanted me to sharpen them and check the frontal areas as the shape wasn't looking smooth curve. I recorded the video to show for them what all has went wrong in previous sharpening s.

I made cross grinding to frontal area so that they at least look a bit more pretty. Here is link to before after situation of same skates. You can perhaps judge which one is made by me or if they are both made by me. https://www.dropbox.com/s/xx0wdg5s3662g1c/Before_after.jpg?dl=0

[Query]

Sorry, I wasn't criticizing you. I thought someone else made the video. 

[supersharp]

The cross-grinding looks really good.  Do you use the Little Edger?  I haven't added it to my machine yet, but I keep thinking about it.  I haven't recovered the cost of the upgrade yet, but I'm getting close.  It would be nice to be able to cross-grind. 

I went through my machine yesterday before sharpening and fine-tuned the adjustment on some of the rollers.  I think there had been some slight movement over time.  As always, I can't be sure that it feels amazing because I know I tuned it up, or if I'm really detecting a change...but it feels great.  I used to have to set up and break down the machine between uses, which I felt always added some potential inconsistency.  Now I have a dedicated bench where it stays set up and I love being able to just walk in and use it whenever I'm ready.  Now I can see that having it set up all the time has its downside, which is that you aren't carefully checking everything when you set it up, so I'm creating a "pre-flight checklist" for myself to get around that. 

[Kaitsu]

Do you use the Little Edger?

Yes, I use Little Edger. Every skate tech whom sharpens figure skates should have cross grinder. I cannot anymore think about sharpening figure skates without cross grinder. I really do like Little Edger even though I have not figured out how to use worn out wheels on that purpose. I am using almost new wheel. What sometimes disturbs is, that you cannot make cross grinding in same setup as normal sharpening. As you explained in some post, Ultima blades does have often different curvature on frontal area of blade than Example Wilson blades. In cross grinding point of view this means that you need to either turn Little Edger slightly different angle or alternatively blade in skate holder. Its common at least in my case that I do both, other ways longer blades collides to "normal wheel". In practice these both changes height and and you need to adjust your skate carriage different height than what is was or would be on hollow grinding. This might be better on table top double head machines where both wheels centre should be always on same height.

Even the Little Edger has some weaknesses, I would never-ever give it away. I paid quite a lot just from the Little Edger brackets. With this I mean that I removed the original 110V motor. Now I have unused 100V motor and 110V to 220V transformer just laying, but I would do same decision at any day. It was worth of it. As you can probably expect, cross grinding requires also some learning process.

I went through my machine yesterday before sharpening and fine-tuned the adjustment on some of the rollers.

This is important maintenance activity on Incredible Edger. Remember to check also that you don´t have any clearance on hinge of diamond dresser. If you have clearance in there, you will copy all vibrations to your wheel and finally to the blades. Making diamond quill more rigid and making ROH specific quills is one of my undone improvement plans. Take a look example Blademaster diamond quills thickness => https://blademaster.com/web/en/replacement-quills/535-tsm680n.html

Ps. Do not trust to quills scales. You can compare them to wooden pencil. When you use your pencil, markings position remains same even the tip of pencil wears. I will always measure ROH adjustment from the tip of diamond.

[Query]

Do you find that cross-grinding creates too asymmetrical an edge shape, and that you need to turn the skate around and grind a little more to make it symmetric?

In theory cross-grinding must create an asymmetric shape, but I'm not sure how big the asymmetry actually is.

I guess one issue with a cross-grinder is that you don't dress to create an ROH - as the wheel wears out, the ROH gradually goes down.

[supersharp]

https://blademaster.com/web/en/figure-skate-sharpening/4-3dr.html

Is this the ruby wheel that you use?

[Kaitsu]

https://blademaster.com/web/en/figure-skate-sharpening/4-3dr.html

Is this the ruby wheel that you use?

Yes, see https://www.dropbox.com/s/zd4f3gti64c1y6e/Blademaster%203-DR.JPG?dl=0

Do you find that cross-grinding creates too asymmetrical an edge shape, and that you need to turn the skate around and grind a little more to make it symmetric?
I guess one issue with a cross-grinder is that you don't dress to create an ROH - as the wheel wears out, the ROH gradually goes down.

I need to apologies my English skills. Its not always so easy to explain these technical things in English and use correct terminology. Its not even so easy in own home langue. For this reason I do like to take photos and use them to show what I mean. There is clear misunderstood and I will try to explain my cross grinding issues more clearly.

See: https://www.dropbox.com/s/arr2o5t00l1yxqy/Little%20Edger.pdf?dl=0

Wheel is dressed to be "flat" but angled. Angled dressing is mandatory on Incredible Edger which has linear longitudinal and transversal axis. This is linear axis system is exceptional compared to almost any other sharpening machine. In practice this means that you cannot affect with skate holder / with your hands in which angle blade contacts to the cross grinder wheel. In IE you need to either change blade angle on skate holder or rotate the electric motor of Little Edger. Quite often I do both. I have tried to adjust my cross grinder wheel height so that center points of normal wheel, which is in horizontal direction, and cross grinder which is in vertical direction, would be the same. In practice this is not possible.

If I have made normal ROH grinding blade should be 100% in level, right? It would be nice if you could do cross grinding right after that without need of adjusting skate holder height or changing the blade angle on skate holder. In reality this is not possible with Little Edger. Table top machines with double head should not suffer from this same issues. In those machines both wheel center points should be very close to each others and you can turn skate carriage to any angle you want without remounting blade on skate holder.

Wheel diameter on your cross grinder defines the "ROH" on cross grind area. In table top machines cross grinder wheel diameter is typically much more larger and wider than in Little Edger. Is hollow needed also on cross grind area, that is I guess dependent on how far from the toe picks cross grinding is made. I would say that smaller wheel is bonus also on cross grinding. At least you have some hollow all the way up to toepics. Check this video to see how Bruce Hurd uses Little Edger. Pay attention to cross grind length while its made and in finished blades. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69tWd_K5iBI

I am sure you are interested to know if I make cross grinding before or after normal ROH grinding. I do both. If the blade frontal curvature has been ruined from reason or another, I will try to repair this part of blade before making the normal sharpening. With this way it is easier to get nice intersection between the cross grinding and hollow grinding. Sometimes I note after the hollow grinding that I would like to make also cross grinding. Typical cases are that have forced to remove a lot of material from the damaged blades. In such a case its hard to estimate beforehand if cross grinding is needed or how much you should grind to keep nice smooth intersections between these two grindings. Another plausible case is that I notice after the hollow the grinding that I would like to fine tune how intersection area of hollow grinding and gross grinding looks. I want hollow grinding end visually as symmetrically as possible. Asymmetric end of hollow grinding causes always doubts if hollow is grind in to the middle of blade or not. Bruce Hurd uses this same visual technique to define datum on Gold Seal Revolution if hollow is middle or not. See above linked video.

[Query]

Wow - the incredible edger looks much simper than I thought. Sort of like sharpening a skate using a grinding wheel on a Dremel tool, or electric drill. Hopefully easier to align.

I wonder if anyone has ever tried to sharpen skates using a grinding wheel held by a lathe, with a vice mounted on the lathe axis. It would help if the vice could be finely adjusted across the axis, and rotated, then locked.

I think it was my question, not your English that was unclear.

I assume the incredible edger wheel rotates in only one direction.

Sharpening a knife (at an angle) on a flat grinding stone produces different edge shapes if you push into the stone than if you pull away from the stone. I assume that is true for cross grinding too. So, even if you get the two edges the same height on a cross grinding machine, they should have a different shape.

I think. But I don't know from experience.

I read once that a lot of Europeans use cross grinding machines to sharpen skates. I wondered if they turn the skate around or reverse the motor direction to even things out.

[supersharp]

Query:  The cross-grinding is generally in the NSZ, so I don't think it matters that there may be a slightly different shape due to push-vs-pull with the single grinding rotation.  Interesting to think about, though.

Kaitsu:  Excellent pdf showing the Little Edger, thanks! 

I'm looking forward to adding the Little Edger to my machine, and fortunately I have a box full of old blades to use while I build some familiarity with it.

[Kaitsu]

Wow - the incredible edger looks much simper than I thought. Sort of like sharpening a skate using a grinding wheel on a Dremel tool, or electric drill. Hopefully easier to align.

I believe you are now mixing Incredible Edger and Little edger. In the Incredible Edger wheel is spinning horizontally (parallel to the blade) and it is used for making actual sharpening. Little Edger is additional small motor unit for Ingredible Edger. In that wheel is spinning vertically (perpendicularly to the blade). With Little edger you are grinding the area which you cannot reach with horizontal wheel (due wheel diameter / toe picks). As the Little Edger is mounted to the end of guide rails, you cannot grind whole blade with that. You cannot change the wheel rotation direction unless you are using frequency converter. Even thought some machines are rotating clockwise and some counter clockwise, I haven´t seen or heard from any skate sharpening machine where you could change the wheel rotation direction.

I wonder if anyone has ever tried to sharpen skates using a grinding wheel held by a lathe, with a vice mounted on the lathe axis. It would help if the vice could be finely adjusted across the axis, and rotated, then locked.

Using lathe sound so exotic that at least I cannot figure out how would you do it. I have thought several times if cheap CNC milling machines would be enough accurate so that sharpening s could be made with them. Could I keep the blade profile unchangeable or even make the my own profiles? If I would be millionaire, I would develop CNC grinder for skates.

Sharpening a knife (at an angle) on a flat grinding stone produces different edge shapes if you push into the stone than if you pull away from the stone.

I would say that phenomena what you described comes more from the operator than the grinding direction. Or alternatively I just don´t understand you description properly.

I read once that a lot of Europeans use cross grinding machines to sharpen skates.

Cross grinders are newer used for actual sharpening. ROH would be huge (flat) and blade where machining traces are perpendicularly to gliding direction would not glide so well. In hockey s cross grinders are used to blades profiling or to remove very bad nicks or gouges from the skates. Gross grinder is used for this purpose mainly because it removes material much more faster than if wheel spins parallel to the blade. After cross grinding hockey skates are sharpened normally. See this video => https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PuL5l9pXphk

[Query]

I have thought several times if cheap CNC milling machines would be enough accurate so that sharpening s could be made with them. Could I keep the blade profile unchangeable or even make the my own profiles? If I would be millionaire, I would develop CNC grinder for skates.

Several companies - e.g., CAG  already makes (semi-)automated profiling machines for skates. (CAG machines are most frequently used for hockey skates, but they advertise usage for figure skates too. I think many CAG machines are now computer controlled, and they have always allowed some types of customization.

Last I knew, Jackson Ultima (for Matrix blades), Paramount, and JW had advertised that they use laser cutting CNC techniques to shape the profile. Someone who used with water cutters told me they could probably do the job too. Unfortunately, laser cutters and water cutters with sufficient power aren't cheap enough for the average skater to buy. I'm not even sure your average pro shop could afford it.

Among other things, using a laser or water stream leaves the sides of the blade intact, because you don't scrape the sides of the blade against something - so you can keep a beautiful smooth surface finish.

You wouldn't really need a CNC grinder. Just create a form to guide the relationship between the blade and the cutting or grinding tool. To some extent they already exist - e.g., rocker bars. MK used to make a form that created their rocker profile, but no longer sells it. Anyway, part of the process of making a high quality skating blade is to "temper" (soften) the steel, the re-harden only the part closest to the edge, to fairly precise specs. The hardened edge helps sharpenings last longer, but the tempered part is (I think) needed so the blade doesn't break because it is too brittle to absorb shock. That isn't something a CNC grinder could do in of itself. Blades look really simple, something that you might think could be cut to form with a jig saw and guide, but maybe they are actually fairly difficult to make well.

[Kaitsu]

Its quite obvious that all modern blade manufacturers are using laser to cut the blades from the bigger metal sheets. What happens after that is what matters for me. Wilson seem to use manually operated cross grinders or belt grinders to improve laser cut surface finish. No matter if we are talking about plasma, laser of water cutting, they never make perfect square cutting. Thicker the material is, bigger the deviation is. See example pictures from this page => https://www.hera.org.nz/quality-requirements-thermal-cutting/

Even the laser cutters are pretty accurate, I would claim that they cant beat CNC milling machines in accuracy. On top of that at least Wilson seems to make two manual grindings for the profile. This is the reason why profiles in the final products are not so precise. I have recently recorded video how Coronation Ace Lite profiles rocker radius looked after the factory sharpening. No matter if rocker radius would not be 100% perfect from the factory, its for sure that there is not such a person whom could improve the profile accuracy by manual grinding. More you grind the blade, more you will charge the profile from the original.

I do have templates to grind rocker radius but aligning the template and blade is real nightmare. I have done it only twice and in both times I saved the blades which deviations I was able to identify without any measuring devices. Deviation were so obvious. Even I have 7, 8, and 9 ft templates, I cannot use them for blade most important area. Even I would have accurate templates for whole profile, its not so simply to copy profile from them. Not at least if you want to be super accurate. Follower roller should be in same center point with wheel and its should have same diameter than grinding wheel. Other ways wheel and follower roller does not have same contact point.

Why I would like to use CNC machine instead of templates is that my "templates" would be digital. I would not need to order "hundreds" expensive templates. What comes to to GAC, I believe the marketing hype and reality are a bit different. In the time when I was looking new machine, I was looking also GAC. Their promo videos didn't convince me. In the other hand all I know about this machine is the videos seen on youtube.

Here is one example from the factory sharpening. This is presenting less or more the worst case situation, but hopefully gives clear impression why blades should be sharpened before taking them in use. https://www.dropbox.com/s/8xcg3dfexn0ijeh/Factory%20sharpening.jpg?dl=0