skatingforums
On the Ice => The Pro Shop => Topic started by: ocug on November 09, 2017, 01:51:29 PM
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I just got new boots for my daughter and this is how they set the blades.. her coach said the right one is incorrect as she doesnt have any issues with feet or legs.. can anyone please help me if they know about this? i did ask the guy who put the blades why it was at the edge of the heel and he said blades dont go in the middle. I trusted his opinion as i dont know a lot about blades but was a bit hesitant because none of her other skates had been set this way... any help will be much appreciated... so frustrated also because he charged me 60 dollars to set them on the new boots :(
thanks
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Did the skate tech check the alignment while she was wearing the skates?
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He did and he said they were alright. Her coach said she can’t hold an outside edge now though because the blades are so inside... ?
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Yeah the heel placement looks unequal. However, my blades are set slightly inside of the middle based on something Gustave Lussi wrote, so it’s not ‘wrong’.
I’ve never paid $60 to set blades.
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thanks for your input! just looks odd that the left one is centered and the right one at the edge of the heel.
didnt know i was supposed to pay for the mounting of blades.. thought the fitting cost-35 had the mounting included and seal.. guess all was separate :(
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Can she skate in a straight line on one foot?
Was she able to hold an outside edge in her old blades?
What level skater are we talking about?
There are lots of details that go into the correct placement of the blade!
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She can skate in a straight line.
She was able to hold her outside edge in her old skates.
She’s 7 and working on her juvenile moves in the field, preliminary freeskate.
Thanks for your help!!! :)
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The right blade does looks oddly mounted.
Did the tech work with the skater's feedback for best placement? Usually they mount the blades with screws in just the slotted adjustment holes until the skater finds the best position, then a few permanent screws are inserted into the other holes to make sure the blade doesn't move.
From first appearances, I'd agree with the coach. It looks wrong, at least in the photo.
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Did you buy the boot and blade from the tech, or did you buy online? Typically, if you buy from the tech, the mounting and a first sharpening is included. If you bought elsewhere, typically there is a charge ($60 for the mounting is about the going rate in my area).
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He did but my daughter’s feedback is not great... she was just excited to get new boots... today in her private lesson is where she started having problems. Coach said she could get used to skate with the blade like that but when she switches to a normal blade set she will have trouble :(
I will take it to another specialist tomorrow and see what they say... every specialist is almost 2 hours away from where we live... thank you for your help
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Could you reshoot the photo with the camera lens viewing head-on the blades (the blades are a bit tilted in the current photo) so I can see the alignment better? There are peculiarities with both skates, but I'm not sure it's an artifact of the photo.
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Will take more pictures as soon as I get home ;) really appreciate it :)
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i hope this pictures give a better view ;)
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In case anyone gets confused - let me remind everyone that putting the skates upside down means that in the first image, the boot on the left is the right boot, and the boot on the right is the left boot. :blush:
AFAICT, the toe left-right placement is about right, but the heel placement is wrong, unless she needed that correction.
But none of us have seen your daughter skate, on centered blades or otherwise. We don't know what the fitter saw that made him do what he did.
One result of the shown blade placement is that she would also need to change the direction in which she orients her right foot. If she doesn't need that particular correction, that is a lot to ask of the young lady. In particular, to skate symmetrically, she will need to rotate her right foot clockwise (so the toe moves outwards, and the heel inwards), to go in the same direction as before. Unless she has an asymmetric anatomy, in which the foot orientation and knee/hip orientation do not match (which she might - one of the reasons to talk to the fitter), that may look slightly strange. Figure skating is an appearance sport, and for the most part, I don't think you want a pathological look if you can avoid it. So if her body lines up without a twist in her right leg, I don't think this is the right thing to do.
There is some disagreement about what part of the blade people should skate on. I was taught, by a particular Russian ice dancer, and by his students, to lean my body and boots forwards when skating forwards, and back when skating back. I think that produces a very nice looking posture, in which the lean, blade position, etc., all line up and look similar to what many people use in international style ballroom dance, if I understand correctly (I'm not expert). (Ice dance style seems to me to be a lot more about getting a certain look than about practical ergonomic concerns.) But it is far more common, especially among freestyle skaters, to do the reverse - to lean forwards when skating back, and back when skating forwards, and there are some ways in which that is more practical mechanically. If she has been taught the more common lean pattern, the inside right blade mount will only affect her right forward outside edge, and will not affect the right back outside edge much. It should not affect her left edges at all, though she might be a little awkward switching from foot to foot until she gets used to the aforementioned clockwise rotation she will need in the right foot.
Assuming the common lean patter, with the blade to the inside, it should be easier to reach the FORWARD RIGHT outside edge, but also easier to fall over that edge, so she may be hesitant to use her forward right outside edge, especially at first. If the goal was to force her to use her right BACK outside edge more, mounting the blades to the inside only on the right heel doesn't make much sense to me. However, maybe the fitter judged that she was avoiding her right forward outside edge, and he wanted her to correct that.
I don't suppose the coach could talk to the fitter, and determine if he had a reason for doing what he did?
If it was me, unless there was a good reason to do otherwise, I would switch to a more normally centered blade placement. I used to mount both of my blades offset far to the left (though I did it both in the heel and toe), because that helped me balance, probably the result of tilted foot bottoms, which were in turn probably the result of somewhat unequal leg length - at least so I think. But that offset made it harder to spin centered, which I have trouble with in any event. So I moved the blades to the centers, and altered the shape of the insoles instead, to better support the left side of my feet. I still have trouble spinning, but centering the blade placement helped a little.
But everyone is different.
PS. I know my explanations tend to be a bit long-winded and hard to follow. That's because I feel such issues to be fairly complicated and unique to the individual. Making a simple explanation doesn't recognize that everybody's body is different. Maybe there is a good reason for what the fitter did.
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i hope this pictures give a better view ;)
How about similar shots of the the other (left) boot?
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AFAICT, the toe left-right placement is about right, but the heel placement is wrong, unless she needed that correction.
i really dont think she needs any corrections ;) Her coach doesnt think so, and the expert didnt tell me he put it on the edge to make any corrections either ... :(
But none of us have seen your daughter skate, on centered blades or otherwise. We don't know what the fitter saw that made him do what he did.
i dont think he saw her skate on her last skates ever before either.. if you do want to watch her skates she has a fb page with her name jessi jurka... i really cant tell the difference :(
One result of the shown blade placement is that she would also need to change the direction in which she orients her right foot. If she doesn't need that particular correction, that is a lot to ask of the young lady. In particular, to skate symmetrically, she will need to rotate her right foot clockwise (so the toe moves outwards, and the heel inwards), to go in the same direction as before. Unless she has an asymmetric anatomy, in which the foot orientation and knee/hip orientation do not match (which she might - one of the reasons to talk to the fitter), that may look slightly strange. Figure skating is an appearance sport, and for the most part, I don't think you want a pathological look if you can avoid it. So if her body lines up without a twist in her right leg, I don't think this is the right thing to do.
maybe thats why she got her first blister on her right foot?? she said she felt a lot of pressure and it hurt a lot while she was skating.. I thought it was maybe just the new boots? her left foot is fine though ;)
There is some disagreement about what part of the blade people should skate on. I was taught, by a particular Russian ice dancer, and by his students, to lean my body and boots forwards when skating forwards, and back when skating back. I think that produces a very nice looking posture, in which the lean, blade position, etc., all line up and look similar to what many people use in international style ballroom dance, if I understand correctly (I'm not expert). (Ice dance style seems to me to be a lot more about getting a certain look than about practical ergonomic concerns.) But it is far more common, especially among freestyle skaters, to do the reverse - to lean forwards when skating back, and back when skating forwards, and there are some ways in which that is more practical mechanically. If she has been taught the more common lean pattern, the inside right blade mount will only affect her right forward outside edge, and will not affect the right back outside edge much. It should not affect her left edges at all, though she might be a little awkward switching from foot to foot until she gets used to the aforementioned clockwise rotation she will need in the right foot.
Assuming the common lean patter, with the blade to the inside, it should be easier to reach the FORWARD RIGHT outside edge, but also easier to fall over that edge, so she may be hesitant to use her forward right outside edge, especially at first. If the goal was to force her to use her right BACK outside edge more, mounting the blades to the inside only on the right heel doesn't make much sense to me. However, maybe the fitter judged that she was avoiding her right forward outside edge, and he wanted her to correct that.
I don't suppose the coach could talk to the fitter, and determine if he had a reason for doing what he did?
i wish he would.. hes russian and doesnt speak lots of english and avoids talking on the phone with anyone :( the specialist is more than an hour away from where we live so not a chance of having them meet either :(
If it was me, unless there was a good reason to do otherwise, I would switch to a more normally centered blade placement. I used to mount both of my blades offset far to the left (though I did it both in the heel and toe), because that helped me balance, probably the result of tilted foot bottoms, which were in turn probably the result of somewhat unequal leg length - at least so I think. But that offset made it harder to spin centered, which I have trouble with in any event. So I moved the blades to the centers, and altered the shape of the insoles instead, to better support the left side of my feet. I still have trouble spinning, but centering the blade placement helped a little.
But everyone is different.
PS. I know my explanations tend to be a bit long-winded and hard to follow. That's because I feel such issues to be fairly complicated and unique to the individual. Making a simple explanation doesn't recognize that everybody's body is different. Maybe there is a good reason for what the fitter did.
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thank you for all your information.. :)
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left boot
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i hope this pictures give a better view ;)
Re: right boot. Typically, as an initial trial mount, you mark the center of the toe and the center of the heel. Imagine a first line drawn between those two points. Then imagine a second line parallel to the first line, but ~1/8" shifted towards the inside (medial side) of the boot. Line up the longitudinal axis of the blade along the second line. So, as mounted, the toe of the blade is reasonably positioned, but the heel of the blade is too far to the inside. Any adjustments from the initial trial mount would then be done after a test period on the ice [unless the tech knew in advance that your daughter had a foot condition that required a special mount, but that does not appear to be the case from your post].
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Hopefully that can be fixed then... thank you all for the help... I understand the heel should be positioned more in the center ;)
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left boot
Re: left boot. Mount is at least reasonable for an initial trial mount.
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Can the right one still be fixed? I’m surprised with this as this specialist is known to be one of the best ones around... maybe he was just too busy and did a quick not so good job with my daughter’s skates as she’s not a high level skater?
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Can the right one still be fixed? I’m surprised with this as this specialist is known to be one of the best ones around... maybe he was just too busy and did a quick not so good job with my daughter’s skates as she’s not a high level skater?
Oh, definitely. Blade can be demounted. Old holes can be permanently plugged if needed. New holes drilled if needed. I mount my own blades. I have problem feet. I've changed the mount about 6 times.
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Thank you for giving me peace.. for a moment I thought her boots were ruined
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By the way, what blades are those? From the photos, it seems there are only permanent mount holes (no temporary mount slots) in the heel plates [unless the hole pattern for the left and right blades are different?]; not sure about the sole plates from the photos. Never seen blades like that before.
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Pattern 99... same blades she was using with her old risports boots... same specialist said she needed to change to Jacksons as her toe box is wide
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Those blades appear to be too short for those boots. You may have the wrong size blades.
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Those blades appear to be too short for those boots. You may have the wrong size blades.
That might be hard to gauge from the photos.
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Those blades appear to be too short for those boots. You may have the wrong size blades.
I was thinking the same thing. They do look quite short compared to the length of the soles.
Did the skate tech study your daughter's bare feet before fitting the blades? If the blades are offset by a significant amount it seems that he is trying to correct a problem that he saw but didn't mention. Do your daughter's normal shoes / boots have uneven wear?
ETA: the placement of the heel screws is interesting, and it does look like a temporary mount so I'd suggest going back to the fitter and explaining the problems your daughter is having and asking him to resolve them.
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Based on the prior holes, the fitter first put the screws in a centered position, then moved the blade. So he did what he did on purpose.
The lowest level hockey techs wouldn't know how to do that, or why it might need to be done - so the guy knows something about figure skate mounting. He might well be competent.
That's part of why I suggested getting the tech and coach to talk to each other - it is conceivable that what he did makes sense for your daughter's body.
I can't tell from the pictures whether he filled the old holes with something - if he didn't, moving the blade back to center would be very easy for you to do - but you should get that discussion first.
I'm also a little unsure of whether he warped the blade in the process of mounting it, because he may only have moved the back screws. Could you put straight edges along the sides (near the bottom of the blades, which is on top in your inverted photo positions), to see whether they are straight? (In case you got parabolic blades, do it on both sides - parabolics [which are ground thinner in the center of the length] might look warped on both sides, at least in the bottom-most area where the chrome has been ground off, which is where the parabolic grind is probably done, but would be symmetric.) If there is a detectable air gap (use no pressure to force it straight), and you don't have symmetric air gaps on both sides, it is warped. (If the gap is a sizeable fraction of a mm, that would be very bad - some skate techs won't even try to un-warp a mm or more of warp, but would send the blades back to the manufacturer, because that is large enough that the blade might break if they try to de-warp it.)
I used to have seriously warped blades (I would never use that skate tech again!). They got quite hot while skating from all the extra friction, and they were quite slow as well. In addition, they were harder to sharpen right - some types of machine sharpening equipment would create uneven edges, in which the left-right edge height differences would vary along the blade. (Specifically, one edge might be longer in the center of the length, the other edge might be longer at the ends.)
One very crude way to check for uneven edges without fancy equipment is to lay Popsicle sticks across the edges, on different parts of the blade. They should look at right angles to the sides of the blade (hard to judge exactly, I know), and if you lay a pair of Popsicle sticks across different parts of the blade, you should be able to site along them to check that the two sticks are parallel. While they aren't precision measuring tools, in part because the right angles are hard to judge, you can buy a bunch of Popsicle (or other brand) at a dollar store, so they are cheap compared to the cost of her new boots and blades. Just make sure they aren't warped either, using that straight edge.
I'm not saying he warped the blade (or that it came warped) - just suggesting you check. While you are at it, check the left blade too.
Because the tails are a bit further forward (a combination of mount position and blade length) than is typical, it is also possible the tail may tend to drag a bit. That would slow her down too - but I'm not sure if the shortness is great enough to matter.
Whether the blades are really too short, if mounted right, depends a lot on her feet. In particular, if her feet are substantially shorter than the outsole (something that sometimes happens on stock boots, especially if her feet are a bit too wide anywhere to fit the boot maker's foot shape assumptions), she might skate better on blades that are a bit short. Though, to take advantage of that, I would think he would have mounted the blades further back, both so the back corners don't drag, and so it is easier to roll forward to the toe picks.
Anyway, good luck!
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I was revisiting this thread and glanced at the first image.
Someone else mentioned the heel on the right boot (the right foot boot--left in the picture) looks crooked. I don't see how I missed that before. Also, at a second glance the boots look like they're different sizes. And I know that may be something with the photo.
This is why I buy my boots through the fitter, because he'll check for stuff like this and return them before mounting the blades.
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Yeah the heel placement looks unequal. However, my blades are set slightly inside of the middle based on something Gustave Lussi wrote, so it’s not ‘wrong’.
I’ve never paid $60 to set blades.
I’ve paid $40+ to mount/set blades, if I had a tech do it and he didn’t sell them to me (or the boots).
I think that mount looks awful. I would go back and tell him to mount them neutral (centered) and then adjust from there based on how they feel. It’s just a temp mount, so not necessarily anything to fret over.
What the tech says is fine doesn’t matter. He isn’t skating on the mount. Those statements only make sense after the tech has watched the skater skate to check it out after putting the blades on the boot (always do that, if possible - you won’t have to ask a good tech that works out of a rink pro shop, they’ll offer 90% of the time).
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Oh, definitely. Blade can be demounted. Old holes can be permanently plugged if needed. New holes drilled if needed. I mount my own blades. I have problem feet. I've changed the mount about 6 times.
Same here. Have spent 5 hours at the rink on some days doing micrometer adjustments on blades to get the mount to work.
The boots I have work well, but I still think I’m going to see a specialist to build orthotics for my feet.
I don’t do my own mounting, though that sounds like a decent idea.
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Based on the prior holes, the fitter first put the screws in a centered position, then moved the blade. So he did what he did on purpose.
The lowest level hockey techs wouldn't know how to do that, or why it might need to be done - so the guy knows something about figure skate mounting. He might well be competent.
That's part of why I suggested getting the tech and coach to talk to each other - it is conceivable that what he did makes sense for your daughter's body.
I can't tell from the pictures whether he filled the old holes with something - if he didn't, moving the blade back to center would be very easy for you to do - but you should get that discussion first.
I'm also a little unsure of whether he warped the blade in the process of mounting it, because he may only have moved the back screws. Could you put straight edges along the sides (near the bottom of the blades, which is on top in your inverted photo positions), to see whether they are straight? (In case you got parabolic blades, do it on both sides - parabolics [which are ground thinner in the center of the length] might look warped on both sides, at least in the bottom-most area where the chrome has been ground off, which is where the parabolic grind is probably done, but would be symmetric.) If there is a detectable air gap (use no pressure to force it straight), and you don't have symmetric air gaps on both sides, it is warped. (If the gap is a sizeable fraction of a mm, that would be very bad - some skate techs won't even try to un-warp a mm or more of warp, but would send the blades back to the manufacturer, because that is large enough that the blade might break if they try to de-warp it.)
I used to have seriously warped blades (I would never use that skate tech again!). They got quite hot while skating from all the extra friction, and they were quite slow as well. In addition, they were harder to sharpen right - some types of machine sharpening equipment would create uneven edges, in which the left-right edge height differences would vary along the blade. (Specifically, one edge might be longer in the center of the length, the other edge might be longer at the ends.)
One very crude way to check for uneven edges without fancy equipment is to lay Popsicle sticks across the edges, on different parts of the blade. They should look at right angles to the sides of the blade (hard to judge exactly, I know), and if you lay a pair of Popsicle sticks across different parts of the blade, you should be able to site along them to check that the two sticks are parallel. While they aren't precision measuring tools, in part because the right angles are hard to judge, you can buy a bunch of Popsicle (or other brand) at a dollar store, so they are cheap compared to the cost of her new boots and blades. Just make sure they aren't warped either, using that straight edge.
I'm not saying he warped the blade (or that it came warped) - just suggesting you check. While you are at it, check the left blade too.
Because the tails are a bit further forward (a combination of mount position and blade length) than is typical, it is also possible the tail may tend to drag a bit. That would slow her down too - but I'm not sure if the shortness is great enough to matter.
Whether the blades are really too short, if mounted right, depends a lot on her feet. In particular, if her feet are substantially shorter than the outsole (something that sometimes happens on stock boots, especially if her feet are a bit too wide anywhere to fit the boot maker's foot shape assumptions), she might skate better on blades that are a bit short. Though, to take advantage of that, I would think he would have mounted the blades further back, both so the back corners don't drag, and so it is easier to roll forward to the toe picks.
Anyway, good luck!
Techs don’t mount that off-center, intentionally, unless:
- Asked/Told to do so
- The end result is the result of adjustments from the skater trying other blade positions
- Blades were like this on old boots and they just attempted to use the same mount position with new boots and/or blades (often fails when switching brands or sizes, IME).
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We don't know anything here about the tech, other than that RinkRat said he/she trusted him. I would still like to have the tech explain why he did what he did.
I've seen very reputable techs use large offsets. One guy, whose fans include Olympic medalists, routinely watches the skater do one foot glides, on the original test mount. If the skater has trouble reaching an edge, he moves the blade, and repeats, until things work right. People generally trust him well enough to go with the position he picks. He doesn't need to be asked to do that - it's part of his standard job.
As I said, I prefer modifying the inside of the boot, instead of outside, to compensate for my issues, if there is room inside the boot to do that - but offsets are the most common way of dealing with such things.
One possibility is to ask the best skaters and/or coaches at the rink who they trust best as a skate tech. Then drive (with the daughter) however far as one has to (I've known people who drive for hours) to get to that person, and ask him/her to check the original fitter's work. And if that best fitter says the blades should have been mounted much differently, or that the boots and/or blades should have been returned, one should stay away from the original skate tech forever. In particular, if the person really did make that big an error, he can't be trusted to do ANYTHING right. There are skate techs who shouldn't be in the business.
Of course it is also true that most skate techs routinely say that every other skate tech is incompetent. Partly to grab each other's business, partly because there are no standardized textbooks or other materials on how to fit boots, or how to mount and sharpen blades, so every "expert" has come up with his or her their own techniques, and typically doesn't recognize other people's techniques as correct. But what better can a non-expert do but ask the best available?
I think that most skaters SHOULD go to the best tech available within a half-days drive when buying boots and blades, if at all possible. Despite that I'm a cheapskate, who economizes on almost everything. Because some techs really are orders of magnitude better than most of the others, and it often matters. It isn't uncommon for people to have to throw away boots and/or blades, accept the economic loss, and start over - you see that mentioned a lot on this board - and if you ask skaters about their skates, you see it a lot in person.
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I don’t do my own mounting, though that sounds like a decent idea.
Not everyone has access to a competent skate tech who is located at a rink. A couple of local rinks have pro shops, but they are primarily geared towards hockey, and the good figure skaters stay clear. The best skate tech for figure skates in my area is not located at a rink. Since it may take several iterative trials on the ice to get the mounting right, it's very frustrating and time consuming to go back and forth to the skate tech multiple times (especially when he's in demand and heavily booked).
My coach had another student who was having problems with her blade mount. My coach knew that I handled my own mounting and asked me whether I would help the other student. I brought in my kit of tools and piece parts to the rink. I tweaked the blade mount according to the coach's instructions. The skater went on the ice to try it out. We did four such iterations in a row to determine the optimal mount. All this was done within an hour; no fuss, no muss. I then took the skates home with me for additional repairs and to make the mount more robust.
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Wanted to thank all of you for your valuable input. Took them to another specialist, she centered them and we’ll see how that works for this week.. her coach thinks they need to be a bit off centered inside but to do back spins this week and footwork and see how they feel.
She did get a big blister when. The blades were too inside maybe because the pressure of staying centered while skating made it happen or maybe just because the boots are new... though that had never happened again.
I wasn’t aware of all it took to get the blades positioned right! Before these skates, she’s gotten the boot and blades already mounted by whoever we bought it from and they worked well from the start! Guess that’s what happens when we try to get fancier :P
Will post blades when done with the job
Happy thanksgiving everyone!
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Well this is true that as you get fancier there are more and more details!
Ugh blisters!!
Let us know how it goes once she gets back out there with these blades.
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It isn't uncommon for people to have to throw away boots and/or blades, accept the economic loss, and start over - you see that mentioned a lot on this board - and if you ask skaters about their skates, you see it a lot in person.
I went through 5 pairs of boots in a year not long ago, so I'm familiar with that.
I think some people at the rink may be surprised when I DON'T show up with a new pair of skates - but I think I've fixed that issue, finally :-)