new boots; overkill?

[im_sk8_mad]

So my boots do the squish (picture attatched) and so i need new ones. Ive had them for 5-6 years and been used on and off during that time.I know i should replace them more often than that but i wasnt doing high level skating. They were a stiffness of 45 which was fine when i got them because i wasnt doing jumps yet, mostly MIF and preparing to learn jumps. Now im doing single jumps with the hopes of learning doubles soon. I live in australia and so our selection of boots at my rinks is pretty poor. They only have selections for really early beginners or super advanced and competing which require payment of a kidney! haha! And their stock also seems to rotate very quickly (they also dont make the model of boot anymore that i currently have). There was a pair i was looking at that i can budget for but they're a stiffness of 85 and designed for triple and quad jumps. I dont have a lot of faith ill ever make it to triples but my question is: Will having this high level of stiffness that i dont really need do any harm? If im not using them for the intensity that they're designed for will they last a little longer?

Note: i wont be heat molding them to break them in, ill be doing in the good old fashioned way =]

[Query]

I can't even do real singles. So take all my advice with a grain of salt.

IMHO, You need stiffer boots if and only if you feel a need for that support. If you feel you don't have sufficient control over blade placement with your current boots, or you feel like you might sprain your ankle(s), they aren't good enough.

IMO, the biggest issue with boots is always how they fit. If they don't fit at the start, it can be a nightmare to deal with them - especially if they are fairly stiff. You can make soft boots almost-fit even if they really don't, because they tend to conform to the foot more or less automatically. Not so with stiff boots. The usual theory is you want skate boots quite snug - but I prefer boots that are SLIGHTLY large - because I am willing to make the changes to make them perfectly snug everywhere they should be.

Some people will disagree with me on this, but, if you aren't doing high level skating, boots designed for triples and quads will essentially NEVER break in, so they will virtually NEVER conform to your feet through use alone. Which means that you may have to use fancy techniques (like stretching the leather, e.g., using a "ball and ring" or "hoke and ball" pliers, applying adhesive foam to take up spots with excess space inside the boot, heat molding [I know you said no, but see below] and making yourself a custom insole - though the custom insole is also likely to to be needed if you DON'T get a too-high level boot) to make them fit. I'm willing to do those things, and have happily used a pair of boots designed for triples and quads. If you aren't willing to do these things, they will probably always be painful, and may cause foot health problems.

It is also very important that there be enough space in front of and behind your ankles (at and above ankle level) that you can point and flex your toe, because an over-stiff boot won't be flexible enough for a normal strength person to force the bend. In fact, AFAICT, even elite level skaters now often look for that.

My personal preference would be for a nice fuzzy liner, especially on over-stiff boots, because that hides some slightly imperfect fit issues.

Another fairly big downside is that over-stiff boots will probably be more heavy than something designed for your level. Many people say that makes them harder to jump in, and that you tire out more quickly even just skating, because you are constantly lifting the excess weight.

The plus side is they may never break down with low level skating, though perhaps doubles will eventually do it. So they will last you a long time - if you can stand them, and if you take good care of them.

You CAN heat mold your own boots  using a reasonably high temperature handheld hair drier. For most boots 180 to 185 deg F (82 - 85 deg C) is pretty safe, if a bit slow. You can probably measure the temperature of the outflow of your hair drier at a given distance from the drier using an appropriate cooking thermometer. I did run into one pair of boots that I could have gotten free, that were supposed to heat mold after being put in a convection oven for 5 minutes about 260 degrees F, which is way above handheld hair drier temperature. I gave up on that pair, though some people would have done it carefully in a food oven. (I don't like using food ovens, because they cycle up and down a lot in temperature, and are often miscalibrated by as much as about 50 deg F.) Heat molding makes a HUGE difference in fit, and is worth the effort. OTOH, a good skate shop - even a good hockey shop, or MAYBE a good ski shop - can do a pretty good job for you, more quickly - for a fee. Any high level skate boot is MEANT to be heat molded. (Though Edea boots are a different, and require special skills to heat mold - I think they might turn into a pile of goo inside a normal heat molding oven.)

[im_sk8_mad]

I like my boots to be really close fitting and snug everywhere rather than slightly bigger, so i was wondering if the extra stifness and padding might be ok for how i like my skates to fit? I dont plan on getting any extra insoles or lining for my skates because there usually isnt any extra room in my skates. Ive tried on the super stiff pair to make sure they fit ok and fit how i like my skates to fit but i was just hesitant to buy them because they were expensive and i didnt know if they would be suitable for me.

Do you think that if they might not otherwise conform to my feet through my skating alone that if i get them heat molded it would help the breaking in process? I know you wont be 100% certain but just trading opinions.

If i was going to heat mold them i wouldnt do it myself, id get a professional to do it.

[fsk8r]

Just to give a bit of insight into the stiffness rating. The people doing triples want the really tough boots because the landings are very hard on their boots. I know a senior level skater and she replaces her top of the range boots every 9 months because she's broken them down.
I where top end boots (possibly not quite so high as hers) but as an adult doing singles, mine last me 4-5 years. I don't want the outlay and the break in every year, but I do break the boots down eventually.
And I wouldn't buy a pair of boots that I can't heat mold now. My feet can't take the pain of breaking them in through skating alone, it's now like wearing in a new pair of shoes. There's just way too much padding.

And I fully sympathise with the Australia problem. The UK has the same issue with getting hold of boots. My last pair came from a vacation to Canada. Being able to walk in a shop and try on multiple boots so I could find a pair which fit my feet, was worth it. (The vacation would have happened anyway, but we took advantage of a shop being nearby).

[celia]

Personally, I don't recommend over-booting.  I got a new pair of Jackson Supreme skates rated for double/triple/quad (rated 85 by Jackson).  I won't go too much into the (poor) reasons I did this - some of them were that they were in stock, fit my feet, and had the lightweight soles.  I was working on no harder than axel. 

I thought I would be ok because I skate with a lot of knee bend and thought I could break them in.  I was wrong.  They were too stiff.  They stayed too stiff.  It was bad for my skating and my progress and frustrating.  After 2 months (16 hours) in them I gave up, bought a pair of Jackson Premieres (rated 65 for axel/beginner doubles), and sold the Supremes on eBay at a loss.  I've been happy with the Premieres ever since and feel like I lost 2 months of time and some money to a bad mistake.

Oh, and they were heat molded to me.  The problem wasn't that my feet hurt.  The skates FIT, and they didn't hurt, but I couldn't get the knee bend, etc.  It was like trying to skate in ski boots.

[im_sk8_mad]

Hmmm... interesting about the stiffness. I’ll keep that in mind. I have talked to my coach and several people from the pro shop and I’m gonna go back there some time this weekend armed with some new questions and see what the say. Short of buying new boots online which I’m very hesitant to do, my pro shop doesn’t offer anything intermediate. My only options are to go backwards to beginner level skates, or go up to a more competitive level skate... I just don’t know what to do!

[Query]

Do you think that if they might not otherwise conform to my feet through my skating alone that if i get them heat molded it would help the breaking in process?

One heat mold won't break them in. I can't be sure for your particular boots, but 5 or 10 heat molds might be a good start. If you pay a pro to do that, it will take non-trivial amount of money. Too many heat molds, and they will break down.

I think you should just accept that boots that stiff will virtually never break in. You have to make them work and be reasonably comfortable at the current degree of stiffness. So if they aren't comfortable when you try them on, and you aren't willing to modify your boots big time, they may never be. I've heard it's different if you were doing triples - then they will eventually break in. I have no experience with doubles - maybe, after a few years, doubles will break in the boots. But you say you aren't there just yet.

With a really snug fit, and very stiff boots, there is only so much modification you can do. E.g., if the boot is too thin or not deep enough at some part of your foot especially around your toes, you can only stretch the leather so much there, even if you heat mold. (In fact, heat molds mostly undo stretches, so you have to re-stretch after heat-molding.) You can get a little extra room by removing the insole, and making your own that are much thinner - but the amount of space you gain that way is limited.

There is a possible psychological here. Because the boots are so high level, they could last you virtually forever. So if you buy them, are unhappy, but you feel you have to wait for such an expensive purchase to break down before you buy a replacement that makes you happy, that might never happen.

I've met a few people who flew internationally to to get fitted (or even just sharpened) by a particular skate tech, or to go to the boot maker's factory store. The flight can be even more expensive than the skates themselves...

Australia is a big piece of land. Is there really no skate tech in the big towns (like Sydney) who knows what they are doing? Perhaps your coach, or another local coach, would know. Also, boot makers can be called, and asked for advice on what skate techs to use. My mental picture of Australia is based on the Crocodile Dundee movies: I imagine you slogging through the mud, fighting off a crocodiles, and bandits, for days, and paddling the last few hundred miles on a surf ski, all to reach the nearest decent pro shop. Hopefully, it isn't quite that bad! But even in the U.S. and Canada, reasonably serious skaters often drive 6 or 7 hours each way, or who fly, to get to a favored boot tech. (Local skaters often carpool to do it.) When it comes to something that can cause you pain for years, or damage your feet, that isn't that big a deal. A bad skate fit can do exactly that. Maybe you just haven't thought to drive or fly that far within Australia yet?

If you can get good results from whatever fitter you use, that's really great. If all else fails, I have a web page on methods of modifying boots. E.g., it's actually reasonably easy to modify insoles with athletic tape, or trace your old one on a piece of foam, and cut it to shape in a 3D fashion. Most of what it takes is patience, an analytic mind, and a willingness to experiment. My most recent ones were cut out of a $7 (USD) foam camping pad - not ideal, because they don't last forever (they eventually squish down and change shape), but it's cheap, conforms well, and is skin-safe - and if you make a mistake, a 6' camping pad has room for lots of retries.
 A lot of people on this board won't do that sort of thing. A lot of them instead buy several pairs of commercial insoles and "orthotics" (more or less the same thing). Some of them get lucky, but a large fraction, possibly most people, won't happen to fit a particular non-custom insole or orthotic, even if they buy one that is a heat molded. BTW, the cost of an insole or orthotic has little bearing on how well it fits - you are mostly just filling space, and that needn't take more than several dollars. The heat moldable orthotics do cost more money - but even they don't work for everyone.

[Loops]

I'm with Celia, strongly advising against such a stiff skate without trying it on first.

Like you, I like to feel the skate around my ankle.  I have continued tying these new high tech skates as tightly as I did my old skates back in the 80's/ early 90's.   I just switched from a dance boot; didn't like the low cut in the front (LOVE the back cut out though for toe point).

I am in France, and can also sympathize with the poor/online only skate selection. I picked up a pair of Jackson's this summer while I was stateside.  They are customs, so won't conform to anything off the shelf, but they are 4 hook in front, and supposedly with a support rating of the Premiere (so 65).  I honestly thought I was underbooting, but didn't need the extra stiffness. They are so stiff I am hindered- with the top hook tied, I can't bend my knees enough to please me, let alone my coach (and believe me, I've been trying to beat them down). I learned in this whole process that stiffness ratings are not standardized between manufacturers........

Caveat: They are too stiff because I don't jump anymore. My club is dance only, so I would get in big trouble if I took the opportunity to properly finish the break in.  If you're doing singles, hoping to get into doubles, do look at the premiere.

Also, I would heat mold.  It really is magic, and trust me, doesn't replace the break in process, especially when the skates are on the stiff side.  So don't worry, you'll still be breaking in the "old fashioned way", the heat molding just makes the internal padding conform to your feet.

I feel for you.  Skate buying sucks, especially in a place where boots are relatively hard to come by.  Good luck!!!!!!

[im_sk8_mad]

I live in Perth which is the wrong side of Australia. I can’t cross the country to get a pair because it’ll take me 5 days to drive and about $100 a night for a hostel room and fuel; and about $1000 to fly there and back, if not more. My current skates are a 45 stiffness, I was ideally wanting about 65, but my pro shop and none of the other pro shops at the 3 rinks we have in town have anything that level. They all have beginner level and only the one has the competitive level with a stiffness of 85.  I have tried the stiff pair on and bent and sat all the way down in them and I moved and wiggled my feet and jumped on the spot and they fit really well how I like my skates to fit. I’m not super rich and I feel I can’t go back to a beginner level boot and so my only option is to go up because I’m not going to buy a pair online without trying them and I can’t just pop over to Melbourne or Sydney and get a pair.... I think I’m just gonna have to go with the stiffer boots and make it work, I don’t really have too many options!

[celia]

Your pro shop won't custom order you a stock pair in the 65 rating?  Many pro shops will order a stock pair of boots if it is in the manufacturer line that they carry.

[im_sk8_mad]

They don’t even carry anything in that range. If it’s not something they stock then they can’t order me in anything. Anything that they may be able to order me in I’d have to pay for which means if they don’t fit I can’t return them because they’d be unable to sell them on to someone else... I had a lengthy discussion with the guy in the pro shop about this and told him that was absolutely rediculous. I think they’re more interested in making money rather than the service they offer to their skaters.

[Loops]

Yeah…… That sounds pretty suspect to me. But given how skate buying is here in France I can kinda see the logic. It is profit based, I don't agree with it, it does not serve the skating community , but I can see the logic. The stores need to stay in business. You as a skater want at least one of them to stay in business.

If you have tried on the skates that are in 85 stiffness and you can bend your knees over your toes with the skates all the way tied up and not lifting your heels off the floor, and they fit you well and you feel comfortable, then I would say go for it. It's probably the decision I would make in your situation. I am hard on my skates, and when I did jump I broke them down fast.

If they do prove to be too stiff, you can sell them on eBay, or Facebook skate exchange and order one of the 65 stiffness models from another place. If it's the same brand the fitting shouldn't be too too different.

Good luck!!

[Query]

Some of the skate makers sometimes send someone to travel to other countries to do fittings. However, Perth might not have enough skaters to make it worth it. Nonetheless, it might be worth contacting all the major boot makers to see if they are doing that any time soon.

5 days across Australia? Wow!

(As for the hotel room, you could always camp on the way. There are cheap rooms near Sydney - much cheaper than in most parts of the U.S.)

$1000 to fly? Expedia says it can be cheaper. But still a pretty large fraction of the price of the boots. And you probably still need to rent a car...

But sometimes there are no good options. How did you pick figure skating as your sport? Maybe you are going a little against the grain.

Where do your coach and other coaches and good skaters go to get their skates fit? It's not impolite to ask them.

[khii]

I feel your pain, I'm in a similar situation myself in New Zealand where it's hard to get good fitting service and variety in skates to try on - my best option is also to fly to Sydney, haha. We just don't have distributors for most of the skate boot brands here. If you have to, I imagine it's cheaper and quicker to fly than drive. Is it possible that any of the other Australian stores have a decent returns policy? It might be cheaper to buy a couple pairs of boots from them (online) and return the ones that aren't any good, then you'd only be down by the return shipping costs. I've heard of people doing this before but it would be very store dependent.

[Query]

Too bad you can't safely ship yourself at standard shipping rates:

  https://www.dcyoutube.net/video/shipping-a-person-in-the-mail

(Don't get any crazy ideas! Presumably only the survivors live to tell the tale.)

[Loops]

I've been thinking about this, because it is such a sucky situation for you.  Have you already bought the skates? If not, are you in a desperate super hurry, or do you have time left in your current boots?

Here in France, the first year I came back to skating, I made a weekend out of the skate buying extravaganza.  We were advised to go to Paris, but I now know other places would have worked as well if not better.  All are a good 14hr drive. Yeah, I know, that already sounds like paradise to you!

But you've tried on a pair of skates, who seem to fit pretty well, but are too stiff. (and tbh 85 is scary stiff, I do worry that it'll impede your skating, if not cause injury outright).

Given that the local shops aren't willing to meet your needs (and I do strongly believe that you are not the only skater looking for an intermediate boot in Perth), why don't you just order, from another shop further afield who IS willing to meet your needs; check or ask outright about their return policy, a more appropriate model from the same brand?  e.g.  If you've tried on the Jackson Supreme, why not just order the Premiere (or Debut Firm).  The fit won't be that much different. 

Fwiw, I have a friend here who is working with a skate shop in Lyon doing just this- for a while there was a lot of back and forth shipping- for whatever reason they wouldn't ship multiple pairs at once.  AND this included the blades each time, what a pia, but she finally got something that'll work for her.  Think about the shipping and returns, even if you have to pay it several times, it certainly won't amount to what you would spend to get yourself to MEL or SYD, and I'd be very surprised if it amounted to even the difference between an intermediate pair of boots and the ones you're looking at, at the local shop.  But since you know your size already, you may nail it on the first try.  You can always send them a foot tracing (what my friend did), and photos of your current insoles (some techs like to see these), and they can match up to insoles in the boots they have.  You aren't shooting completely blind- there are ways to do this from a distance.

The local shop will get its revenge by making you pay to heat mold and mount the blades, so don't worry, they won't completely lose out in the process.  Also, they'll charge you for any punching out that may need to happen.

Oh, and Perth is NOT on the wrong side of the continent!!!! The others just haven't figured out what a good thing they're missing ;-).  I used to live up in Townsville, and skated on what I'm pretty sure is/was the world's smallest rink (maybe a 1/4 of an olympic sized slab?, too small for a zam, in any case, and barely enough space to set up a triple). That was in the days before Internet, so I don't know what they did for skates- very likely involved a trip to SYD, but....

[fsk8r]

Just wondering whether you've spoken to any of the coaches in Perth about your dilemma? You can't be the only skater moving up to intermediate boots. If you are considering the mail order options, they may know of shops who are able to accommodate.

[Query]

Just curious - how common is it for pro shops to be willing to do this back-and-forth ship and trial fit thing, that Khii and Loops suggested? I've not heard of it, but maybe that's because I live near enough to a good pro shop that it isn't needed.

If it were me, I would discuss with the remote store whether a trial fit is permissible, and ask what it is permitted to check the fit. E.g., they probably won't let you mount blades on the boots, and they probably won't let you heat mold them, or punch (stretch) them. Also, don't scuff them or make them dirty.

Also, I would want the boots shipped to me, not my local pro shop - to reduce the number of times the pro shop can charge for service, and otherwise mess me up. It is especially important not to get the blades shipped to the local store, because because many pro shops open the box and do an initial sharpen without asking, which could make them nonreturnable.

Fit isn't just looking for tight spots and loose spots that you guess to be beyond heat mold and punch limits. It's also whether the range of motion is sufficient or too great to provide adequate support, and comfort associated with the heel height. A few minutes may not be enough. Walk in them for a few hours if you can. That's not the same as skating, but to skate, you need to mount the blades, which means drilling holes in the boot, wearing out the blade a little, and a fall could scuff the boots, all possibly making them nonreturnable.

BTW, get your coach or another expert to check out your old blades - if they are still good, maybe you don't need new blades. (To some extent optimal blade length depends a little on which boots you choose. But if they are still good, you might still try your old ones before wasting money on new blades.)

Good luck! Let us know what happens.

[khii]

Looks like Ice Monster sells and delivers throughout Australia and has something resembling a returns/size swap policy - if you have no luck finding out where the other local intermediate skaters get their skates, I'd give them a call or email to see how it works and if they can help you.

https://www.icemonster.com.au/figure-skating.html

"Whether you are in Melbourne, Brisbane, Adelaide, Perth, Canberra or Sydney, we will provide the best range, service and prices."

"Ice Monster™ is the preferred alternative to buying overseas because of our competitive prices, speedy delivery service, and our favorable Returns and Warranty policies, which you can't get when buying overseas."

I'd say they're worth contacting if you're concerned about overbooting with the advanced skates available at your local pro shop.

Good luck!!

[Loops]

This is a discontinued model- the Fusion is the current one.  The price is pretty sweet on these:

https://www.icemonster.com.au/jackson-premiere-dj2800-boots.html

AND unlike in France YOU HAVE CHOICE OF WIDTH!!!!! 

[aussieskater]

Ice monster are really good to deal with; they might well be prepared to help you out.  Alternatively, you might think about contacting Margaret at Iskate Canterbury; I think she's the major Jackson dealer in Sydney and might be able to help.  My guess is that you'd have to pay for the boots plus shipping for each time you get a pair to try, so the risk of boots lost in the post or otherwise damaged etc would be on you.

Perth has a few rinks now (3 I think?), and plenty of figure skaters, so I  agree with whoever suggested you ask the local coaches.  It seems that Cockburn and Mirrabooka have a strong synchro contingent, so I'd also suggest that you could ask higher level synchro skaters for information.  Here's a link I found for Synchro WA, which might help:  http://www.icesynchrowa.com/

Good luck.  New boots is not fun, especially when you can't easily get hold of them!

[celia]

This is a discontinued model- the Fusion is the current one.  The price is pretty sweet on these:

The discontinued model of Premiere is the one I have.  Everyone’s feet are different but I love my Premieres.  Needed gel ankle sleeves to break them in but pretty smooth going.

Good luck!

[ChristyRN]

I just got new Premieres this year. I don't think they are being discontinued, but rather the Fusion is being marketed and the Premier isn't. I *love* my Premieres--so much that I'm in my second semi-custom pair. I don't care for the new look--too Edea-ish.

[Query]

On Jackson's own website the current Premiere is for men, and the current Premiere Fusion is for women. So, when you order, you might want to make sure you get a boot for the right gender - in addition to default color, sizing is different.
 
  https://jacksonultima.com/collections/boots

Also, there is a very good chance than Jackson uses a Canadian size system, which might be different from a Australian system. And different boot brands are sized and shaped different in any event.

Wouldn't hurt to contact Jackson for details.