USFSA Masters vs. Adult

[AgnesNitt]

So what's the difference between masters and adult. I thought masters was over 60, but I can't find any definition. Adult is still over 21.


Mod note: Split from Rulebook Reference topic.

[Qarol]

So what's the difference between masters and adult. I thought masters was over 60, but I can't find any definition. Adult is still over 21.

I thought masters was over 25. I'm on a masters synchro team, and that's what it means there.

[sarahspins]

So what's the difference between masters and adult. I thought masters was over 60, but I can't find any definition. Adult is still over 21.

Masters is 50+ and testing at the master's level carries a slightly lower passing average than testing at Adult or Standard (and you must designate which passing standard you wish to test to - you do not default to masters at 50, nor to Adult at 25).  If you check the 2011-2012 test book it shows the different requirements, and the age requirements are listed on page 8.  One must only be 21 for the adult track tests, but for intermediate and up you have to be 25+ to test the standard track tests at the adult passing level (or 50+ for masters).

[Skittl1321]

I thought masters was over 25. I'm on a masters synchro team, and that's what it means there.

Master's means different things for different things.
It has one definition for synchro
Another for testing (over 50)
and yet another for adult competitions (where master's are the highest level skaters)

[Query]

So what's the difference between masters and adult.

One neat thing about USFSA putting the rulebook and test book (both of which have info on this topic) freely online is that you can save them on your computer, open them up using Adobe Reader, and search them for words like "masters". I think doing so was one of the best things USFSA has done.

Conclusion of search: The word has different meanings to the USFSA in different contexts.

[PrettySk8Dress]

Masters is 50+ and testing at the master's level carries a slightly lower passing average than testing at Adult or Standard (and you must designate which passing standard you wish to test to

When I took my ice dancing tests of the Hickory Hoedown ( " The Hick-Ho " ) and the Ten-Fox at the end of last summer, I was asked and had to specify that I was going to use the Masters dance tract. This was good that this provision for older adults was there in the USFS rules, but it is still unnerving and discouraging to adult and older adult skaters to hear comments from older USFS judges to the effect of, " I judge by one standard, the best standard, the only standard. One standard for everyone, that is the only way to judge, that is the way I judge ". Although the current rules state that Master's tests ( for adults 50+ ) are to be graded with an eaiser and lower threshold for passage, it just seams that many USFS judges, either by conscience or unconsciousness, do not subscribe to that provision, and judge the older adult with the same standard of younger adults, or even of teen-age skaters.
Why am I led to this conclusion ? Well, just to site one example of another older adult female skater at a rink that I sometimes practice on, she has taken her Master's
 ( adults 50+ ) Bronze freestyle test many times. She is a good skater and does her elements reasonably well, but is somewhat slow flowing over the ice, since she is in her upper 60's. Went she was given a " Retry " on her latest test, one older USFS judge wrote on the comment section of her test sheet,  " Why don't you just skate for fun and recreation, instead of trying to pass the Bronze Freestyle test ? At your age, you probably will never be as good as, and as up to the standard, as is needed to pass a standard freestyle test ".
Real encouragement for a Masters ( adults 50+ ) ice skater and ice dancer from a USFS judge, isn't it ? However, wither the judge knows it or not, the comment has made the ice skater even more determined, and she has redoubled her efforts, to pass the Masters ( adult 50+ ) Bronze Freestyle test.

[sarahspins]

it just seams that many USFS judges, either by conscience or unconsciousness, do not subscribe to that provision, and judge the older adult with the same standard of younger adults, or even of teen-age skaters.

You're not alone...  I think most judges just don't differentiate... passing standard is the same for them regardless of what the score actually is, and very few ever mark anything above passing... and really at that point maybe it's time the tests were all just pass/fail because that is effectively how they are judged right now, and I think that's because the scoring is simply too subjective.

I also think that sometimes certain judges are more lenient if they 'know' you and have a good idea whether what they see at a given test session may just amount to a bad day... likewise if a judge doesn't want to see a skater pass (regardless of ability), they will never pass.

one older USFS judge wrote on the comment section of her test sheet,  " Why don't you just skate for fun and recreation, instead of trying to pass the Bronze Freestyle test ? At your age, you probably will never be as good as, and as up to the standard, as is needed to pass a standard freestyle test ".

That really makes me sad for all involved.  I honestly think that MOST adult oriented skating is done for fun and recreation - even those who go to adult nationals, they're not doing it for sponsorship or fame, they do it for FUN!  Testing is really no different.  I want to take my tests, mostly just to validate my skating, and I don't even plan to seriously compete (I did list a 2012 goal as entering and competing in one competition, but I plan to do so only FOR FUN.. I don't care about winning, it's more about just getting out there and doing it and getting out of my comfort zone).

[AgnesNitt]

I think if that had happened to me, I would send a photocopy with a sharp letter to the appropriate office at USFSA. Judges with the "I only judge by one standard attitude" will not change unless USFSA comes down on them and issues a letter correcting the attitude.


And thanks to everyone for clarifying the insanity that is Master's in USFSA.

[icedancer]

I think if that had happened to me, I would send a photocopy with a sharp letter to the appropriate office at USFSA. Judges with the "I only judge by one standard attitude" will not change unless USFSA comes down on them and issues a letter correcting the attitude.

I quite agree with you Agnes.

I am a US Figure Skating Judge (Silver Dance, Singles and Pairs - applying for Gold Dance appointment) and although I find it very difficult to judge the adult skaters I also find this judges statement appalling.  Good for the skater for not getting completely discouraged and being determined to pass that darn test.

[drskater]

on her latest test, one older USFS judge wrote on the comment section of her test sheet,  " Why don't you just skate for fun and recreation, instead of trying to pass the Bronze Freestyle test ? At your age, you probably will never be as good as, and as up to the standard, as is needed to pass a standard freestyle test ".

Ugh. I'm wondering if this critique, which explicitly cites age, isn't some kind of violation of Judges' Ethics. It seems to clearly point to the judge's bias against older skaters. It implies the skater cannot hope to ever pass because her age will somehow inhibit her from ever reaching "passing standard,"  as opposed to her skating performance. Even if the comment is not strictly (USFS rules) unethical, it is unnecessarily harsh and demeaning. Your friend should test at a different club.

[Skittl1321]

and really at that point maybe it's time the tests were all just pass/fail because that is effectively how they are judged right now,

AGREE!

[drskater]

Ooops--just read Agnes Nitt's post. Yes, xerox the comment, cite the relevant section in the Judges' Code of Ethics, the USFS's mission statement, and point out that age discrimination will threaten the USFS's IRS non-profit status.

[blue111moon]

I think some people may be misunderstanding the concept of "standard."    In the course of becoming a judge, it's necessary for the judge to establish a mental image of what the test "should" look like for that level.  That's why trial judging so many tests is important.  That mental image becomes that judge's "standard" and is generally given the average passing mark.

The Adult and Masters tests don't ask the judge to change their "standard" - it just allows a lower passing mark.  So the judge looks at a dance test and may score it below their passing mark, but because the skater is taking the Adult or Masters version of the test, the lower score may still pass.

The standard doesn't change;  the bar is just lower.

[FigureSpins]

The rulebook does NOT say that judges should "go easier" on a Masters test-taker.  The USFSA lowered the numeric passing "bar" for skaters testing under the Masters score guidelines, but they didn't lower the judges' expectations.  That's not cited anywhere in the rulebooks, nor have I ever heard of that concept.  It's really unreasonable to ask a volunteer (judge) to memorize different standards. 

Unless I'm mistaken, I don't believe ANY of the Adult Freeskate tests have the different scoring options of Adult and/or Masters, so it's a moot point to bring it up unless you're advocating for that change.  If so, the Adult Committee is a better group to hear that request.

[Skittl1321]

The USFSA lowered the numeric passing "bar" for skaters testing under the Masters score guidelines, but they didn't lower the judges' expectations. 

Yes, Master's only need to get a (made up) 3.1, adults a 3.4, and standard a 3.6 to pass.  But there is nothing to define WHAT these numbers mean.  If a judge expects the same thing from a Master's skater and a Standard skater, and writes down 3.1 for one of them and 3.6 for the other, the numbers are meaningless.  Less is expected to earn a 3.1, more is expected to earn a 3.6.  On MITF tests, a separate bar isn't always being used.  Judges know what power pulls are supposed to look like, and that's what they want from everyone.  The numeric system is being used as a pass/fail system without regard to numbers meaning the standard is different for the different groups.

However, for freeskate tests, you are right- there is no Master's vs Adult score point.

[sarahspins]

So the judge looks at a dance test and may score it below their passing mark, but because the skater is taking the Adult or Masters version of the test, the lower score may still pass.

Yes, that's how it should work, but I think the point many of us are trying to make is that often it doesn't seem like it does work that way.  A lot of judges just see the test elements as "good enough" or "not passing" and there really isn't that much wiggle room.  I think part of the problem is just numbers - there are fewer adults (and masters) testing than kids, so the judges just don't know where that "adult passing" standard is compared to the standard track.

The testing process has become overly discouraging to some skaters who have the elements required on a test, yet still don't pass.  It's hard to quantify why you can't get past a level when you have solid elements and yet that isn't reflected in testing.  I think for many adults there really isn't much they can "work on" to fix that if the judges are biased against adult skaters.

[techskater]

However, for freeskate tests, you are right- there is no Master's vs Adult score point.

I believe there's now a Masters passing standard for Bronze-Gold FS test.  It doesn't mean you can get by with cheated elements, it's to account for the flow and power difference between a 21 year old and a 51 year old at the same level. 

[Skittl1321]

Interesting... I looked at the rulebook and didn't see anything.
The two standards are marked on the MITF.

[PrettySk8Dress]

so the judges just don't know where that "adult passing" standard is compared to the standard track.

 I think for many adults there really isn't much they can "work on" to fix that if the judges are biased against adult skaters.

]

Good thought, sarahspins. +1 GOE
This is the thought I was trying to point out, based on my, and several other adult skaters, observations about Adult and Masters testing. I agree, it seems that many USFS judges just don't know where that adult passing standard is compared to the standard track passing standard. Therefor, they just revert to the
 " one standard for all " mentality, which is fine for the standard track skaters, but really hurts the Adult and Masters track skaters, IMO. I don't know if this situation is outright ' bias against adult skaters ', although sometimes it sure looks like it, it may be more of the infrequent encounters with Adult and Master skaters that many USFS judges experience. After years of judging hundreds of kids and teen skaters, than once in a blue moon being asked to judge a Adult or Masters skater, the convenient course of action is to fall back on " one standard for everyone ". Is it the USFS judges who have judged for years and years, before the Adult and Masters test structure was instituted, the ones who mostly have this " one standard " mentality ? This is what it seems to me, as well as other adult skaters in the adult club that I belong to.  

[blue111moon]

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree then.   Adult skaters and adult tests have been around now for 20 years;  the tests and standards aren't new to the judges and unless the judge refuses to judge adults tests (I know a couple who do), they've seen enough of them to know what adults are capable of.  In my experience (30+ years of adult skating, 20+ years running competitions, 12 years as test chair, 8 years as an official), the judges in general want to see people pass tests.  They do want to see quality skating, though, apppropriate to the level.

I do think that, over the years, judges have become stricter in general with their passing standards, but that's in response to intructions from HQ.  The level of skating required to pass tests now is much higher than it was back in the 1990's when the tests were created.  (I was one of the first people to take the "new" adult tests then; 7 people judged my Bronze FS test because they hadn't seen one before.) 

[drskater]

+ GOE for being so forthright. Thank you!

[techskater]

I've also seen judges seemingly harder on adults taking intermediate and higher tests.  One session where the adult skater's test was clearly better than some of the kids (nice flow + concept of edge) but the adult was given a retry for lack of power and a couple kids were passed with questionable edges in brackets in the field and back double 3s and no more power than the adult. 

[Kim to the Max]

I've also seen judges seemingly harder on adults taking intermediate and higher tests.  One session where the adult skater's test was clearly better than some of the kids (nice flow + concept of edge) but the adult was given a retry for lack of power and a couple kids were passed with questionable edges in brackets in the field and back double 3s and no more power than the adult. 

AMEN! Story of my life...I am going on my 4th try on Senior and am considering traveling well outside of this area to test to try different judges...