skatingforums
On the Ice => The Pro Shop => Topic started by: infinitespiral on February 25, 2019, 01:53:10 PM
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You might want to grab a snack; this is going to be a long one. ::>)
So right around Christmas, as we were in holiday break from LTS, I needed a sharpening, and was unable to get my boots to the rink for the once-a-month visit from the Good Sharpener. In desperation (I was slipping all over the place), I handed my skates off to someone else, thinking "how bad could it be?" :-[ (If I'd had better blades than the Mirages, I probably would have thought twice.) They were ridiculously sharp when I got them back, and so grabby I could barely do anything at all. The next LTS session started up and I've actually felt myself regressing in skills, to the point that I now feel I've wasted the past eight weeks of my skating life.
The sharpness/"biteyness" has calmed down, but in its place I discovered that I could not even feel my left outside edge, much less actually get on it. My left side has always been my stronger side, and I was getting some nice forward crossovers and edges, could cross and hold and stay that way for a decent glide, and now, none of those things. If anything, I feel more awkward now than I did months ago. I fashioned a wedge for under my insole to sort of shove me over onto the edge, and that's helped a little, but only barely. Looking at my blade under a strong magnifying glass makes it appear that the grind might be slightly off-center. I'll need to let a professional look at it to be sure.
Which brings me to the next part of the saga. I replaced my ill-fitting Riedells with a pair of Jackson Elles, which are a good fit for me; however, the boots are microfiber, not leather, and I'm not liking it much. (Note: these aren't the new Elle Fusions, they're the previous model with the LCL sole. In the transitional period, some boots ended up being made with the microfiber upper, according to the Jackson rep I spoke with.) The microfiber doesn't have the suppleness of leather, and I'm not able to get it to conform around my skinny ankles. I've worn them for almost eight months now, so I suspect that's not going to change. (Before the Riedells I had a pair of leather Elles that were too wide in the foot, but I had no problem with snugging them around my ankles.)
Since I obviously enjoy wasting money and making questionable choices, I'm now thinking of finding a pair of actual leather Elles, or even moving up to Freestyles, and maybe going up to a better blade like an Ace or a Pro. (Note: If I do, I will never, ever, let anyone but the Good Sharpener touch them, so help me St. Lidwina.) I'm also thinking of sitting out the next LTS session while I get these issues sorted, and while I recover from the residual stiffness and soreness from when my car was rear-ended last month. At this rate, I'm just frustrating and discouraging myself. :(
I just wish I'd not outgrown the old Jackson boots I had back in the late 90s when I did this before. Those fit perfectly right out of the box. I've even thought of hunting up a pair on eBay, but I'm concerned that boots that old might not hold up very well.
This was a long post. Any suggestions, advice, commiseration, even scolding, is welcome!
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No scolding here. I let a second rate sharpener touch my skates once, and he wrecked my blades. They were fixable, but only by a total expert. All I can say is these things happen.
Buying skates sucks. They are so expensive, and you never really know what you're going to get. And as soon as you find something that works for you, the bootmaker changes it. You have commiseration from me.
But we skate for fun. If your skates are wrecking your fun, then you are entitled to do something about it. It is neither wasting money, nor making a questionable choice. Have you looked on Ebay or someplace similar to see if you can't find an all leather gently used pair of Elles in your size? There may be other options. And I suspect when you switch up to an MK Prof/ CorAce you'll be glad you did!
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The sharpness/"biteyness" has calmed down, but in its place I discovered that I could not even feel my left outside edge, much less actually get on it.
If you start with very sharp un-dulled blades, and don't keep super-great care of them, two things might happen:
1. A very sharp edge can break off. Especially if you walk on them outside the ice, without putting a blade guard over them. One step is sometimes enough.
2. An edge bends over. If you CAREFULLY feel your left outside edge with your finger (brush your finger as lightly as you can across the width of the blade), does the edge still point down, or has it been bent to one side? You may be able to see that with a magnifying glass - but not likely - you need a microscope to see the details of edge.
There was no need to wait 8 weeks. You could have taken it back to a skate tech whose technique you preferred.
In the future, either don't go back to the new skate tech, or tell them you want the blade dulled a little. If you have no choice, dull them yourself.
The easiest thing to do to fix your skates is to take it back to a good skate tech whose technique you like.
If that isn't practical, or you are a do-it-yourselfer, you can re-straighten your edge, or dull it, with a very fine grain flat grinding stone. Lubricate it with water (oil works too, but can be messy to carry in a skate bag).
1. To straighten an edge, at least if it has bent to the OUTSIDE, stroke the stone along the side to push the bent part straight. (If it is bent to the INSIDE, you might first try to push it to the outside or center with the stone.)
2. To dull an edge, continue stroking it, but finish by drawing the stone a little across the edge so it points slightly inwards.
Some people on this board use a "steel" (such as is used to straighten kitchen knives) instead of a flat stone. I don't have enough familiarity with steels to describe the technique in detail.
On another note, it isn't necessarily the case that your new skate tech is "bad".
Some figure and hockey skaters like very sharp blades. Others, like you, prefer somewhat duller blades.
Most skate techs dull the edges a little after they sharpen it, unless they are asked to do otherwise. But a few keep it very sharp, unless asked to do otherwise. It takes a careful slow technique to make it super-sharp - but some skaters - especially some hockey skaters - really love it that way, because they can use the extra bite to stop and change direction faster. I used to love super-sharp blades, because I hadn't learned how to orient my skates right, and it was the only way I could make edges work. I also like them sharp while skating on outdoor or rough ice, because they cut through the surface junk, and on very cold ice, which is harder to penetrate.
In addition, you get the sharpest edges on the powered bench tools that most pro shops have by using a fine grain wheel. A medium or coarse grain wheel (and especially a "rental" skate wheel) doesn't create very sharp edges. Your new tech may have used a very fine grain wheel.
Finally, not all skate techs use the same "radius of hollow" (ROH), by default. (The sideways curvature across the bottom of your blade.) A good skate tech would have measured your radius, by fitting a tool against the bottom of your blades, and tried to match what you had before. (There is also a purpose-built tool that measures the depth of cut, that some skate techs love to show off to impress you that they have all the right tools - but it is almost meaningless when applied to dull blades, because the edges have worn off. It is also almost meaningless when applied to ultra-sharp "foil edges" that extend beyond the arc of the hollow.) It is quite possible your new tech used a smaller radius than you were used to - resulting in more curvature, more depth of cut, and a thinner edge angle. That would make it feel much more sharp. It would also waste a lot of the metal - i.e., reduce the blade lifetime.
BTW, many hockey skate techs remove about 1 - 2 mm (.04 - .08 inches) of steel every time they sharpen, or order to remove nicks, compared to the approximately .003 inches a good figure skate tech typically removes. At that rate, your figure skate blade would last only a few sharpenings. There aren't many skate techs that know that little about figure skate sharpening, but I've met a couple. On top of that, there are horror stories about hockey skate techs with no knowledge of figure skates who round off the toe pick and the back of the blade, and remove the felt "sweet spot" at the front that you might otherwise use to determine where to balance on your blade when you turn and spin. That can also happen if someone puts figure skates in an automated machine designed to only sharpen hockey skates. One really bad sharpening can make figure skate blades completely useless. (Some hockey players claim that skate techs who only understand figure skates have messed up their hockey blades too, but that is hard to believe, because figure skate people are inherently good. :))
I once took my blades to a tech who sharpened my blades so off-center that if I stuck the skates blade-side-down on a table, they leaned way over. So I only had an edge on one side.
The best skate techs know how to sharpen both types of skate well. The problem is, most pro shop managers give their employees minimal training, and they are often trained by other skate techs who aren't experts either. In addition, time is money, and some pro shop managers want their techs to spend less than a minute total / pair. That doesn't give them time, for example, to change the ROH, or the grinding wheel, between blades. Nor does it give them time to take measurements, or check their work. It may not even give them time to adjust the wheel height, which would give you a poorly centered grind, like you say you have. Or to use a different blade holder - some figure skate blade holders force the blade to be straight while sharpened, so that even if the blade is slightly warped, the edges can be even and well centered throughout the length.
Take the cost of replacing your blades into account when choosing a skate tech to sharpen your blades. E.g., if it costs you $150 - $600 per blade pair (I have no idea what types of blades you have), and you only get 3 sharpenings out of them, that's $50 - $200 wasted per sharpening - much more than the cost of the sharpening. Plus the time and money you waste trying to skate and take lessons on badly sharpened blades.
BTW, I'm not scolding. A lot of us have only learned by making mistakes. Including me.
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Thank you for your sound advice. To my admittedly inexpert fingers, the edge seemed unbent, but I'll be handing them over to the tech we all usually use to make a determination. I've been thinking of upgrading to a better blade at some point, anyway... :blush:
And of course, after all this angst, I had a reasonably good lesson this week, along with a very encouraging assessment from my group coach, so I will soldier on. Such a frustrating sport I've chosen!
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It could also be that the sharpener used a different radius of hollow then you are used to. I had that happen to me when I was new and it felt just like that - super grabby. I worked with the sharpener to use a different hollow, and when I eventually switched sharpeners (just because of relocation) made sure to communicate what hollow I preferred until I knew I didn't have to anymore :)
Good luck finding the right equipment!
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No scolding here. I let a second rate sharpener touch my skates once, and he wrecked my blades. They were fixable, but only by a total expert. All I can say is these things happen.
I let a highly rated, sworn by others to be fantastic sharpener do my skates once, when my regular sharpener was on the road.
My skates chattered like machine guns. People looked at me on freestyle with eyes of horror.
I took my skates back to my regular sharpener when he got back. "While you were out I needed a sharpening so I went so so-and-so." My sharpener said the edges of the blades weren't even. I suspect that as an unknown that so-and-so handed my skates over to some guy in the back.
It's such a risk no matter what you know if you have to change sharpeners
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It is a risk.... The only person I truly trust with my skates is the person I've gone to since I was a kid. He's the one who fixed my blades. When you find someone who sharpens in a way that works for you, you hold on tight!
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It is a risk.... The only person I truly trust with my skates is the person I've gone to since I was a kid. He's the one who fixed my blades. When you find someone who sharpens in a way that works for you, you hold on tight!
Even then you have to be vigilant. One sharpener I went to started out doing a great job; but over time, as demand increased, he started taking shortcuts and got sloppy. And another well-established sharpener in my area had a solid reputation for several decades. Then he uncharacteristically started wrecking blades. Several skaters close to him later told me that he had developed dementia.
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I was able to consult this weekend with the Good Sharpener, who measured my blades and discovered that they'd been ground to 5/16", a depth he swore he would never agree to without written consent and a promise not to sue afterwards. :o But he said he could regrind them back to the 1/2" I had before, so perhaps my tale of woe will have a happy ending!
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Wow - a 5/16" ROH is super aggressive, and I've never heard of anyone with figure skates using that grind.
Glad you discovered what the issue was.
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I was able to consult this weekend with the Good Sharpener, who measured my blades and discovered that they'd been ground to 5/16", a depth he swore he would never agree to without written consent and a promise not to sue afterwards. :o But he said he could regrind them back to the 1/2" I had before, so perhaps my tale of woe will have a happy ending!
The crappy VERY LAZY sharpener, had done goalie skates before your and thought you were too dumb to notice. Shows what he knows. Also, he was lazy.
(http://www.pro-filer.com/images/Graph-full.jpg)
I skate with 15/32. I can tell if it's off.
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The crappy VERY LAZY sharpener, had done goalie skates before your and thought you were too dumb to notice. Shows what he knows. Also, he was lazy.
5/16" ROH is also sometimes used on thinline ice dance blades. But, yes, looks like the sharpener didn't bother to re-dress the wheel to a more suitable ROH.
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I was able to consult this weekend with the Good Sharpener, who measured my blades and discovered that they'd been ground to 5/16", a depth he swore he would never agree to without written consent and a promise not to sue afterwards. :o But he said he could regrind them back to the 1/2" I had before, so perhaps my tale of woe will have a happy ending!
Hope he rescues them OK. Unfortunately, this flip-flop wastes metal.
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If you tell your story to all your skating friends, so they know which skate tech to avoid at all costs, and which one you like, you could be doing them a favor. I would also mention the issue to the bad skate tech's shop and facility managers, possibly along with an unlikelihood that you will return to the shop in the future.
I know that sounds mean, but I believe that bad skate techs, like bad car mechanics, should retire. Managers should to be informed if their people do shoddy work.
While you are at it, tell the good skate tech, and HIS shop and facility managers, how much you appreciate his fine work.
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If you tell your story to all your skating friends, so they know which skate tech to avoid at all costs, and which one you like, you could be doing them a favor. I would also mention the issue to the bad skate tech's shop and facility managers, possibly along with an unlikelihood that you will return to the shop in the future.
I know that sounds mean, but I believe that bad skate techs, like bad car mechanics, should retire. Managers should to be informed if their people do shoddy work.
While you are at it, tell the good skate tech, and HIS shop and facility managers, how much you appreciate his fine work.
Agreed to all the above. I've already shared this cautionary tale with the others in my group class, with my coach and her assistant, and sundry others. The tech who did this works at the other rink in town; I know that rink's owner (he's a friend of a family member), so I think I'll fill him in on what happened. Online reviewing can't hurt, either.
Meanwhile, my blades were salvageable, and I've been singing the praises of the tech who resurrected them. He has earned my loyalty and my gratitude. I am apparently now skilled enough to recognize the difference between a good and a bad sharpening, and to understand why a trustworthy and talented tech is so valuable, so I will take all this as an important Learning Experience.
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Wow, 5/16 is close to a “death grind” ie 1/4”. That is very deep.
I’ve been to some supposedly ‘good’ sharpeners and been unimpressed. I suspect they take more care with ‘important’ customers and friends, and do not worry so much about random people. In my experience most sharpeners are at best mediocre, often they are barely trained, and do not dress the wheel before a grind. You really do need a BAT gauge so you can at least check that the edges are level along the entire blade.
I don’t believe many hockey sharpeners remove 1-2mm of metal, each cut removes a thousandth of an inch or so, hence 1mm would take an age to do. They would also have to dress the grind stone several times. I do know someone who does mainly figure skates who takes a lot of metal off, but not that much. On one occasion you could actually see a step along the middle of the blade. He had not got the blade high enough for the grind stone to contact the entire blade width. He is heavy handed and careless.
MOD NOTE: THIS MEMBER ONLY HAS EXPERIENCE WITH HOCKEY SKATES.
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and do not dress the wheel before a grind.
Some techs say that if you are doing multiple sharpenings with the same ROH, you shouldn't re-dress the wheel too often. It gradually becomes flatter in use, but not so much as to matter, which means that if you re-dress the wheel, both the wheel and the skates need to have extra materiel removed. However, some skate techs use different wheels for different ROH, and for different degrees of sharpness and types of blade. However, not everyone agrees on this point. In theory, if you re-dress the wheel every time, AND you set the ROH used EXACTLY, the problem doesn't occur - but that is hard to do, at least on the bench machine I briefly tried.
> You really do need a BAT gauge so you can at least check that the edges are level along the entire blade.
I assume you mean like
https://blackstonesport.com/en/product/batgage
One minor issue is that if the blade has some types of warp, any single level-ness check will not measure things quite the right way. I think a compromise between level along the blade when not stressed (which checks how level the pair of edges are relative to the ice), and level when forced unwarped and straight (which might check edge angles relative to the sides of the blade, depending on how the gauge is designed), will do the best thing.
In any event the BATGAGE does not check ROH, AFAICT.
There are at least a few types of ROH gauge. At least one, to the best of my understanding (I don't have one - they are expensive), measures the difference between the blade height at the center, and the height at the edges. In effect, they are differential depth gauges. E.g., see
http://www.pro-filer.com/hdi
However, because the bluntness of the edge differs depending on grinding technique, use of polishing fluid, and wheel coarseness, that can not be very accurate. And on a blade that has been deliberately blunted, or that has been skated on, it has very poor accuracy - I think. Plus, newly ground blade edges, viewed under a 100-200X microscope, are quite ragged, so it is hard to understand how a differential depth gauge that touches the edges can be all that meaningful. I could be wrong - perhaps the gauge does not cover the entire hollow region and doesn't touch the edges themselves??
There are also contact-gauges that are simply fitted against the hollow surface. In principle that is the right way to do it, though you need to look in careful detail to see how good the fit is. Even that way, if the blades are made very sharp, with a foil edge, that extends past the hollow curve (created by straightening, rather than true deburring, the sharpening burr created by a fine grit wheel or hand tool), the result can be substantially inaccurate, because the foils prevent full contact.
I think, in theory, what you really want is a contact gauge that is slightly thinner than the hollow region, so it misses the foil, plus a magnifying glass so you can see the fit.
>I don’t believe many hockey sharpeners remove 1-2mm of metal, each cut removes a thousandth of an inch or so,
>hence 1mm would take an age to do. They would also have to dress the grind stone several times.
Amount removed/pass depends on several factors, including pressure and the grit coarseness of the wheel. There are a variety of wheels sold, with grit numbers ranging from about 60 to 120, as well as polishing wheels. With a "rental" wheel, you can take off all the metal in several passes, if you do it wrong. Someone once tried to train me to do it that way on an old Blademaster machine, and almost completely took away all the metal on a rental blade while doing it, in several passes. Although I very much wanted to learn to use one those machines, I decided that person's training wasn't of great value. :) Believe it or not, that person worked on both hockey and figure blades.
(As with sandpaper, higher grit numbers remove less material removed per pass. I'm not sure if the grit/resin composition and particle density affect how fast metal is removed too.)
There are also some "cross grind" wheels (mounted on different axles on the same machine, or on different machines) designed to remove the steel even faster.
https://blackstonesport.com/en/product/cross-grind-1-wheel
The person who tried to train me wrong kept returning to the cross grind wheel after he mis-centered a finishing wheel pass, so he would have a flatter surface to work with. It is amazing how much metal the "wrong" person can remove at once using a cross grinding wheel. AFAICT, to remove that much material, quickly, you needed to use the cross grind wheel.
After I talked to a couple (non-expert) skate techs at one shop who talked about typically removing 1 - 2 mm, I went to another shop, which had a marginally more expert tech, though not one I would personally recommend. He said he might remove that much from a hockey blade if the blade had a particularly large nick.
So - while you are probably right that it is not "Normal" to remove that much material - it is sometimes done.
It is hard to understand how an amateur hockey player would be willing to spend that much money replacing blades. But some of the more serious amateur hockey players spend thousands of dollars/season in dues, fees, and ice time to practice and play with a team, about as much on travel costs, and some spend a few hundred dollars/year replacing lightweight composite hockey sticks, so a few hundred more on blades doesn't seem so bad to them.
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Note to Mod: Yes, I only use hockey skates but I believe the information I gave is applicable to both kinds except where stated.
Query: Yes, that is an example of a BAT gauge. Yes it does not measure RoH. You have to hope that the tech set the correct hollow: I have at least once had the wrong hollow, and I was unable to skate. I have a RoH gauge made by ProSharp, but it is a cheap and nasty item made from pressed steel, best avoided. I have examined many sharpenings from one rink shop, which I will not name, and all but one were poor. A common problem is that the edges are tilted one way at the front (ie one edge is much higher than the other), and the opposite way at the back. I even once saw a step along the length of the blade, though that was obvious to anyone who saw the blade. These were all figure skates incidentally. Yes, no doubt some techs could if they tried grind off a huge amount of metal especially if they cross grind. They would probably change the profile too. One problem I had with my last skates was that when I bought new skates, I discovered that the old blades were almost flat and not rounded due to repeated manual sharpenings. To make matters worse those skates were sharpened by one of the few reliable people in our area. And yes this can and will occur with figure skates too. As an aside, I now have a Sparx machine, so I no longer worry about finding a good sharpener.
And yes you are right that blades not not necessary flat. They can be bent, and they can be tapered! I had a pair of blades that were tapered, so the BAT gauge reading was different on each side. In that case all you can do is ensure the reading is consistent along the length of the blade, and that readings on both sides are close to good. I have no idea if figure skate blades can have the same issues.
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I even once saw a step along the length of the blade
My response depends on what you mean by a step. I assume you mean an abrupt vertical height change in the edge. (Figure skates SHOULD have one or two sudden steps in curvature up front - or at least they normally come from the factory that way. That creates a sweet spot, that the skater can feel, for doing well controlled spins and turns.)
There are reasons the vertical height change might be done deliberately:
When a figure skater is learning "skidded double jumps", one highly respected skate tech in my area often deliberately dulls (grinds off) a little off of the front outside edge that the skater is jumping off of. That helps the skater deliberately slightly pre-rotate the blade outwards, as he/she skids into the jump, building up angular momentum that he/she can store in their arms or legs. If it was too sharp on that edge, the force tending to change the deliberate skid into a turn that is rotating as they leave the ice (which is considered bad in figure skating jumps) might be too great for a beginner to handle. (Skids are considered bad technique before double jumps, so the skate tech doesn't create the skid point before that.)
Likewise, many hockey goalies want both back outside edges dulled a little, so they can slide more easily slide to slide.
Both of these deliberate skid regions are sophisticated mods that a poorly trained skate tech is unlikely to understand or do. Given that you say the pro shop in question made other major errors, I doubt that the step was deliberate.
However, normal figure or hockey skating use MIGHT create such a step. E.g., reasonably advanced figure skaters often do a lot of turns and jumps off of the front part of one foot, which preferentially wears down front edges on one foot.
Likewise, hockey players often do very strong stops and turns, which can substantially alter the shape of the blade. AFAICT, hockey stops are usually done off of the center of the blade, because it is flattest, and can create the most force. This is one of the factors that tends to further flatten out the center of the blade, BTW - it isn't just a sharpening artifact. (On top of that, Blademaster suggests that hockey players on Olympic size rinks should have the center part of the blade ground with NO rocker curvature, so they take advantage of the larger rink size to go faster, and to stop from higher speeds. They say this is more common in Europe, where Olympic size rinks supposedly are more common than NHL size rinks, but some U.S. and Canadian hockey players have that done before playing a game on an Olympic size rink too. Switching back and forth must waste a lot of steel - but I assume it is only needed for advanced players who can skate and stop very, very fast. That flat part won't create a vertical step, but it might create a step in curvature.)
An obvious question is whether you LIKE the final rocker profile shape of your old blades better or worse than of your new blades.
The best skate techs sometimes deliberately maintain or reshape the rocker curvature profile, for a number of reasons. For hockey, there are CAG machines designed to cut a very specific profile, and there are also other types of rocker curvature guides. Of course, any such reshaping wastes metal, but you could trace your original blade profile if you want, and make sure it is maintained over time. It is quite common, for example, for offensive players, who mostly skate forwards, to want the entire profile shifted forwards a little (I think a mm or so, but haven't found consistent info), and for defensive players, who mostly skate backwards, to want it shifted back a little. For figure skaters, there are a lot of subtleties about how shape interacts with figure skating, that a given skater might want customized. E.g., it is fairly common to move the sweet spot to be just ahead of the ball of the foot, because that is a fairly comfortable place on which to balance for spins and turns.
If you become unhappy with your rocker profile, I'm not sure if the Sparx machine lets you modify the shape yourself, since it sounds fairly automated - but I guess you could use a different tool to grind down some parts by hand - or take it to an expert skate tech to be re-profiled.
Have you measured how much steel the Sparx machine takes off per sharpening pass? Maybe you could do that by marking a spot with a pencil, and measure the distance to the edge with a micrometer or calipers, before and after sharpening. Also, how many passes do you typically do with it? I'm trying to guesstimate how much metal you remove in a typical sharpening.
Am I correct that the Sparx machine is definitely not designed for figure skates?
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Wow, 5/16 is close to a “death grind” ie 1/4”. That is very deep.
I’ve been to some supposedly ‘good’ sharpeners and been unimpressed. I suspect they take more care with ‘important’ customers and friends, and do not worry so much about random people. In my experience most sharpeners are at best mediocre, often they are barely trained, and do not dress the wheel before a grind. You really do need a BAT gauge so you can at least check that the edges are level along the entire blade.
I don’t believe many hockey sharpeners remove 1-2mm of metal, each cut removes a thousandth of an inch or so, hence 1mm would take an age to do. They would also have to dress the grind stone several times. I do know someone who does mainly figure skates who takes a lot of metal off, but not that much. On one occasion you could actually see a step along the middle of the blade. He had not got the blade high enough for the grind stone to contact the entire blade width. He is heavy handed and careless.
MOD NOTE: THIS MEMBER ONLY HAS EXPERIENCE WITH HOCKEY SKATES.
Not sure why the note at the end was added as it is misleading. I do in fact have experience with figure skates having checked numerous pairs with my BAT gauge and found them decidedly unlevel to an unacceptable degree. I’ve a,so talked with figure skating friends and they confirm my experiences. The sharpeners I used to use before I bought my own machine sharpen both hockey and figure skates. Incidentally, my skating coach is a figure skater, and pretty amazing she is too.
As an aside, I now have some 5/16” wheels for my machine, so I can give 5/16” a go. Does anyone here use that grind? I normally skate on a 7/16” grind.
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Not me. I've used 3/8" on figure blades and that's as deep as I've needed, even with slightly thinner Gold Seal blades.
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I'm chill with 15/32. The perfect ROH.
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I have been using a 7/16 for about 4 years. That was recommended by the highly respected sharpener at the rink. My first sharpening was in LTS and he recommended 9/16 but I felt like I was skidding around so we went to 7/16 the next time and it has felt fine.
This particular sharpener moved to another rink so a (also highly respected) sharpener from a nearby rink is coming in now. He told me the previous grind was very uneven with 1 side higher than the other. He also told me for my size and level he would recommend 5/8 or maybe 9/16 but that with a 7/16 the skate is controlling me rather than me controlling the skate. He said 7/16 is for lighter skaters doing doubles and triples.
Now I don't know exactly what to believe. I may try a 1/2" and see how that feels but dropping back to 5/8 sounds extreme.
Do you lose a lot of material backing off from the existing ROH?
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As an aside, I now have some 5/16” wheels for my machine, so I can give 5/16” a go. Does anyone here use that grind? I normally skate on a 7/16” grind.
I took a ROH poll in 2018: http://skatingforums.com/index.php?topic=8072.msg96263#msg96263. At that time, no member of this forum reported using 5/16" (even for dance blades).
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I very recently backed off from a 3/8 grind to a 7/16ths. After the last lockdown, I was having too much trouble stopping backwards.
I have to say, despite our hard hockey ice, I'm very happy. I haven't lost grip, have gained in glide, and can now stop backwards. I am NOT a a light skater doing 2's and 3's. I did test out what singles I have left, and was able to land them without skidding.
I did this a week before the rink closed again, so I won't call myself a convert yet, but I am a happy camper.
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The vast majority of the skaters at my rink use 7/16. We have a few high-level dancers that prefer 3/8 and a senior-level lady was the only one who had 5/16. The skaters that use 1/2 are all in LTS, as are the ones in 9/16.
The real question is what are you comfortable with? Have you asked your coach? Has this tech ever seen you skate? Because techs can be just as set in their ways as anyone else. There's a coach in my area who sharpens all his skaters to 3/8 no matter if they're starting Pre-pre moves at age 7 or international competitors with years of experience. Sharpen to what you are comfortable with, not just because someone "in the know" says to change.
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I have been using a 7/16 for about 4 years. That was recommended by the highly respected sharpener at the rink. My first sharpening was in LTS and he recommended 9/16 but I felt like I was skidding around so we went to 7/16 the next time and it has felt fine.
This particular sharpener moved to another rink so a (also highly respected) sharpener from a nearby rink is coming in now. He told me the previous grind was very uneven with 1 side higher than the other. He also told me for my size and level he would recommend 5/8 or maybe 9/16 but that with a 7/16 the skate is controlling me rather than me controlling the skate. He said 7/16 is for lighter skaters doing doubles and triples.
Now I don't know exactly what to believe. I may try a 1/2" and see how that feels but dropping back to 5/8 sounds extreme.
Do you lose a lot of material backing off from the existing ROH?
The vast majority of the skaters at my rink use 7/16. We have a few high-level dancers that prefer 3/8 and a senior-level lady was the only one who had 5/16. The skaters that use 1/2 are all in LTS, as are the ones in 9/16.
The real question is what are you comfortable with? Have you asked your coach? Has this tech ever seen you skate? Because techs can be just as set in their ways as anyone else. There's a coach in my area who sharpens all his skaters to 3/8 no matter if they're starting Pre-pre moves at age 7 or international competitors with years of experience. Sharpen to what you are comfortable with, not just because someone "in the know" says to change.
<<Emphasis added.>> I’m in agreement with LunarSkater here. It doesn’t matter what someone else (regardless of whether that someone else is a tech, a coach, or another skater) says should be the best ROH for you. The only thing that really matters is what ROH works best for a specific skater executing specific moves with a specific set of blades on a specific ice surface.
I’ve come across two contradictory ROH strategies. The first is that skaters should start out with a larger ROH (e.g., 1/2” or larger) and then change to a smaller ROH (e.g., 7/16” or smaller) as they advance. The second is that skaters should start out with a smaller ROH and then change to a larger ROH as they advance. Perhaps it’s fair to say that both strategies apply during different phases.
I’m skeptical of rules that specify absolute ranges of ROH based on nominal skill level alone (e.g., 9/16” or 1/2” for recreational, 7/16” or 3/8” for freestyle) or based on nominal skill level and weight. One general rule, however, does hold for relative changes in ROH: As the ROH decreases (hollow gets deeper), the bite increases and the glide decreases (with the usual caveat: all other significant parameters held constant). From this consideration, it makes sense to use the largest ROH (shallowest hollow) that provides you sufficient edge control. The optimum ROH will likely change as the skater’s needs and level of edge control changes. E.g., a beginner skater will likely do fine with 9/16” or 1/2” for moves that require only shallow edges. As he advances to moves that require deeper edges, however, he might need to change to a smaller ROH, e.g., 7/16” or 3/8”, to increase bite. But then again, as his level of edge control increases, he might be able to increase the ROH back to, e.g., 1/2” or 9/16” or even larger to increase glide.
The best freestylist I personally know has incredibly deep, beautiful edges; blindingly fast, well-centered spins; breath-taking triples; and majestic, sweeping spirals down the length of the ice: her ROH is 3/4” (and she's petite). There is an elite champion skater of yesteryear in my area. She still coaches, and I’ve seen her skating for fun on publics; her ROH is 5/8” (I know because she goes to the same tech as I do). Klutzy me, on the other hand, was on 7/16” for a long time, but changed to 3/8” specifically to get better control over the entry to a scratch spin.
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I'd like to add an observation to that. I experimented with various ROH several years ago. One thing about flat grinds (in my case 1/2") was that I was skidding a bit more than I'd like. To compensate, I consciously tried using more knee bend. It worked surprisingly well to hold an edge with a flat ROH.
I have fairly deep knees, however, at my age, skating around with knees continually bent *that* much really taxed my strength. I suspect that one could get used to it, but I was lazy. :)
It just proves that the old adage "Bend your knees!" works for so many skating issues.
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To go along with this discussion, back in the days of school figures, many of us had a second set of skates (because of different blades) for those. The blades, I believe are a smidge wider, but I would need to measure that with calipers that I don't have access to at the moment.
Having said that, school figures require edge control and glide. Lots of glide. Edges, change of edges and turns, must be clean, skidding is not acceptable. Some figures (the smaller, loop based figures) require deeper edges. We had our blades sharpened to 1" or 1.5", depending on skill/preference. For normal skating/stroking, there is skidding and no grip. But it works great on figures. Mine are 1.5 and the glide is eteeeeerrrrrrnal. But, as Bill_S points out: knee-bend is required, although they are skated at much slower speeds than dance or freestyle.
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Which brings me to the next part of the saga. I replaced my ill-fitting Riedells with a pair of Jackson Elles, which are a good fit for me; however, the boots are microfiber, not leather, and I'm not liking it much. (Note: these aren't the new Elle Fusions, they're the previous model with the LCL sole. In the transitional period, some boots ended up being made with the microfiber upper, according to the Jackson rep I spoke with.) The microfiber doesn't have the suppleness of leather, and I'm not able to get it to conform around my skinny ankles.
I failed to respond to that part. Did you eventually get leather Elles?
To my mind, if they don't conform to your skinny ankles, they still don't fit. A good fit is 3D - it should fit your entire foot, ankle, and the part of the leg it touches. In addition to affecting your performance, a poor fit around the ankles will contribute to rapid breakdown, by providing space for a crease to form in the material.
However, something like a sock cuff might make them fit. As a cheap first try, take some thick socks (e.g., cotton athletic socks), keep the band around the area that is loose, and cut away the top and bottoms. Of course they will eventually unravel - but that is good enough for an initial test, and there are glues you can buy in fabric stores that prevent unraveling at the edges of fabric. Maybe you could even sort of get away with a dollar store knitted scarf - cut a little length, and wrap it around those skinny ankles. If either of these fit pretty well (probably not perfectly - because the edge of the material is abrupt, rather than thinning - "feathering" - at the edges, and perhaps because some people feel that the boot liner - which this effectively becomes part of - should not be too squishy), you can transition to a more expensive product - e.g., buy a piece of EVA foam from Joann Fabrics or elsewhere, and cut it to shape. With a little heat from a hot air drier, placed inside the boot around your foot, it may conform better to the foot and boot. There are also cuffs on sale at some figure and hockey skating pro shops - typically designed to cushion the place where the leg touches the top of the boot.
BTW, I haven't tried these things - I have the opposite problem, in that my ankles and legs have somewhat higher volume than my supposedly custom skates were designed to fit.
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I have been using a 7/16 for about 4 years. That was recommended by the highly respected sharpener at the rink. My first sharpening was in LTS and he recommended 9/16 but I felt like I was skidding around so we went to 7/16 the next time and it has felt fine.
This particular sharpener moved to another rink so a (also highly respected) sharpener from a nearby rink is coming in now. He told me the previous grind was very uneven with 1 side higher than the other. He also told me for my size and level he would recommend 5/8 or maybe 9/16 but that with a 7/16 the skate is controlling me rather than me controlling the skate. He said 7/16 is for lighter skaters doing doubles and triples.
Now I don't know exactly what to believe. I may try a 1/2" and see how that feels but dropping back to 5/8 sounds extreme.
Do you lose a lot of material backing off from the existing ROH?
My coach, a figure skater, uses 3/8”. She’s a light build, but not tiny. She skated at UK national level. As others have said, use what feels comfortable. I’ve tried 5/8”, 1/2” and 7/16”. I found 7/16” tiring until I learnt better edge control, so I no longer fight the edges (and don’t crunch so much).
No you don’t lose much material going up or down a step in the RoH. I can change up or down an increment (1/16”) on my Sparx machine with no more than two passes.
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I have been using a 7/16 for about 4 years. That was recommended by the highly respected sharpener at the rink. My first sharpening was in LTS and he recommended 9/16 but I felt like I was skidding around so we went to 7/16 the next time and it has felt fine.
This particular sharpener moved to another rink so a (also highly respected) sharpener from a nearby rink is coming in now. He told me the previous grind was very uneven with 1 side higher than the other. He also told me for my size and level he would recommend 5/8 or maybe 9/16 but that with a 7/16 the skate is controlling me rather than me controlling the skate. He said 7/16 is for lighter skaters doing doubles and triples.
Now I don't know exactly what to believe. I may try a 1/2" and see how that feels but dropping back to 5/8 sounds extreme.
Do you lose a lot of material backing off from the existing ROH?
Stick with what works for you, but what you may find is that the new sharpener's 7/16ths may be different to the original sharpener's 7/16ths. I'm unable to get to my usual great sharpener, and have asked a couple of local sharpeners to sharpen my blades to 7/16ths with extremely variable results.