breaking at the waist

[falen]

Can anyone post a picture of that.  I do not know what people mean when they say that.

[Clarice]

Breaking forward at the waist is when the skater is leaning forward with the upper body, and usually also sticking their rear out.  If the skater bends their knees and ankles enough, they should be able to go down with a straight back, like a piece of toast in a toaster slot.  If they break forward, they likely also have their weight too far over their toes.  Sorry I don't have a picture, though.

[kayskate]

I tell my students to pretend they have a cup of tea on their head and they want to drink it later, so they can't spill any. For the most part, this is something they can imagine and it helps them keep their head up.

Kay

[FigureSpins]

Check out this blog post - she has a photo of herself breaking at the waist while dancing with a properly-positioned partner.

http://hipsk8.blogspot.com/2010/10/hipiphany.html

Breaking at the waist, also called "bending forward at the waist" happens whenever the skater doesn't bend knees to carry weight.  They instead jackknife their upper body to balance.  It happens on everything from stroking and turns to jumps and spins.  Bad habit that can be overcome by increasing core strength and using the lower body properly.

[Doubletoe]

Here's a girl doing an outside spread eagle but breaking at the waist:
http://sports.webshots.com/photo/1529352035083430417kEmTIF

Here's a much better outside spread eagle position where the skater is not breaking at the waist; her torso and legs form a straight line:
http://www.afanasieva-dack.com/Images/Japan_dec_8_2007/Shuzuka2.jpg

"Breaking at the waist" is also something you aren't supposed to do on jumps.

Here's an example of a skater breaking at the waist in her axel air position (sorry if this girl's parent or coach is on this board; it's just a random photo I found through an image search. She probably straightened up before landing!):
http://www.allyskates.com/mediac/400_0/media/Alex$20Star.jpg

In contrast, this skater is not breaking at the waist.  Her torso and landing leg form a straight vertical line in the air: http://www.istockphoto.com/file_thumbview_approve/8974936/2/istockphoto_8974936-axel-jump.jpg

[falen]

I still don't get it   When I see some skaters on tv they all seem to be leaning forward when stroking and crossovers.  Does it mean only in certain moves?

[Isk8NYC]

They're leaning forward, yes, but they're not bent at the waist.  Their hips are tilted to stay in line with their upper body.  Look at any of Lysacek's good landings - he's so straight-arrow, it's confusing, but since he's skinny you can see the body line.

Best rule of thumb: if your butt's sticking out, you're breaking at the waist.

[MimiG]

The skaters on tv are bending at the hip (and knee and ankle), but maintain (unless the choreography demands otherwise) an extended line through the waist and back.

Here is a pair of young ice dancers who are breaking at the waist (and also have weak knee and ankle bend) while skating forwards (which is not at all surprising for their age and level):
http://www.timminspress.com/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=2284330

And, here is a photo of Laetitia Hubert bending at the hip (and knee and ankle), but not breaking at the waist, while doing back crossovers:
http://www.icesk8r.com/hubert/pics/9821212.jpg

If you draw a line from from between Laetitia's skates straight up (where her weight is balanced in the photo), you can see that line would be centered through her shoulders, hips, knees and ankles - she would have weight both before and behind it. Because of this she is undoubtedly very balanced and secure on her edges.

In comparison, I'd expect the young dance team's edges to be shallow and wobbly. Their line would pass through their skating knees and behind their heads. Because their hips are well behind this line, and their knees and ankles are pretty much in line with it, they have to break at the waist or they would fall over backwards - the head needs to be forward to balance the weight. (But don't worry! They'll get better with training, improved core strength and better body awareness!)

(As an aside, it was surprisingly hard to find good example photos of people just stroking that were taken from similar angles...)

[falen]

I guess it is hard to find a picture.   The difference to my untrained eye is that the breaking of the waist picture almost looks like the back is rounded, while the other one has an arched back.  Maybe I'm not looking at the right spot.

[falen]

I must be looking at the wrong spot, because I would say that Latieia has the butt more out than the little girl.  The little girl and boy seem to have a more turtle shape with the neck kind of bending out and up.  Ooh maybe this is it, is it that the bend forward starts in the middle of the back, making a kind of hunching line?  And the correct way is kind of like the cobra stretch where the upper back is on an upward slope?

[amice]

Another way to say the same thing is that Laetitia has her skates under her.  The kids don't.  Maybe easier to visualize?

[falen]

I think I get it.  The knees are almost lined up at her chin (vertically) and the kids knees are lined up to the waist.  So if your knees are bend more you can be leaning more forard and still be correct, but if the knees are less bent you are not allow to lean as much forward.  Is that right?

[techskater]

Not exactly.  You should not break at the waist no matter how deep your knee bend is.  You should have shoulders over core over hips over knees over ankles.  The only time you should break at the waist is if it makes sense choreographically or as part of a step sequence.

[fsk8r]

Not exactly.  You should not break at the waist no matter how deep your knee bend is.  You should have shoulders over core over hips over knees over ankles.  The only time you should break at the waist is if it makes sense choreographically or as part of a step sequence.

I'm sorry but this isn't really anatomically correct. You can't have your hips over your knees once your knees are bent, the thigh bone gets in the way.

Possibly we need to go back to talking about carriage as a way of referring to good posture. I always think of good skating posture as being like a ballet dancer (they seem to be aiming at the same thing) and my ballet teacher always talked about pulling up (strong core is the modern way of saying this). Breaking at the waist is when you let this good posture go and your hips are no longer in "neutral". As the ballet teacher said, think of the hips as carrying a drink (hot chocolate) and you have to not let any of it spill. If you break at the waist the liquid will spill. 

[falen]

I'm sorry.  I don't get it now.  It seems to me the high level skaters are all leaning forward including that pic of Leticia.  It seems to me that everyon'e butt sticks out but some of them are breaking and others are not.  So going back to the two pictures.  Is there a tell tale sign?  Someone mentioned butt sticking out, but it looks to me like all of them stick out the butt.  The big difference I see is there is a rounding of the spine between the neck and butt in the kid's pictures while the Leticia has a back straight like a table.  Is that the breaking?

[Kim to the Max]

The way I look at it (and the way it feels to me on the ice) is if I am pulling my shoulders back and am "standing up," then I am not breaking at the waist. When I land a jump and I am leaning forward, my shoulders are forward, and I am practically looking at the ice is when I am breaking at the waist.

[falen]

OOooo that will really help my DD because she is a "it feels like..." type person.  Unfortunately, I still don't think I could identify it.

[Query]

It is important to distinguish the positions of ice dancers from those of freestylers. Don't try to learn good ice dance posture from freestylers, and vice-versa. And recognize that not all coaches and all skaters are the same, even if you just watch the people who win medals on TV.

I think isolating motions to the leg/hip joint and below is mostly an Ice Dance (and Ballroom Dance) affectation. (And even so is often dropped in Free Dance).

Anyone can tell by watching TV that most freestylers do lean forwards, and I think they bend at the waist. Maybe it gives them a stronger sideways push and pull on backwards crossovers, and in some cases stronger jumps? I can't quite figure it out, but it is obvious that the isolation restricts the body's ability to use some of it's strongest core muscles.

AFAICT by watching the best skaters on TV, Ice Dancers lean forwards too, when skating forwards, because it is more efficient. But the bend is at the leg/hip joint and below, not higher up at the waist.

When I took an ice dance class with a high class coach, he spent a lot of time emphasizing the idea of letting the body above the leg/hip joint move as a unit - i.e., it had virtually no internal motion. Not just bends. In his style, rotations occur almost exclusively in the hip/leg joint, and a little in the ankle. I found this completely unnatural, very hard to do, and very inefficient. I sent an inquiry to an ice dance mailing list, and was told this is a common style.

On the other hand, when I took ice dance lessons from another coach, he was constantly counter-rotating the waist and the lower body from each other. For example, if he did alternating cross steps, skating in alternating arcs, the upper body maintained an orientation directly facing the far wall at all times, though the legs and knees below the hip joint rotated around to match the skating trajectory to face the other walls during the motion.

Both of those ice dance coaches had very impressive competitive records. Both were Russians, BTW. And neither bent forwards at the waist, as far as I could tell. 

[Doubletoe]

I still don't get it   When I see some skaters on tv they all seem to be leaning forward when stroking and crossovers.  Does it mean only in certain moves?

Falen, there are times when a skater should have her torso and legs aligned in a straight line and other times when she should be leaned forward (but with an arched back--never a rounded back). For example, there's no way a skater will be able to do a sitspin without "breaking at the waist" or leaning forward--but the back must be arched, not rounded.  But in jump air positions, upright spins and spread eagles, the skater should not break at the waist.  So let's go back and clarify something:  On which moves is your dd is being told not to break at the waist?

[blue111moon]

Think of sitting in a straight chair.  When you sit up straight with good posture and your butt against the back of the chair, your shoulders are over your hips and your rib cage lifts.  When you slump forward, you bend in the middle, your rib cage drops and your shoulders come forward over your thighs.  Even if you pull your shoulderblades together, your body is still folded over in the middle.

"Breaking at the waist" is the skating equivilent of slumping.  LIfting the rib cage is one way to correct that.

When you see skaters bending forward to do back crossovers, it's as if they are sitting up straight in the chair and then leaning forward from the hips while still keeping their rib cages up and their spine straight.

[IceDancr179]

To help prevent my students from breaking at the waist when skating forward, I will take them to a line and have them stand behind it on two feet. I tell them that that line is like a finish line [of a race], and that when they are skating forward, the first parts of their body that must cross the finish line first are their toes and knees. I will have them work on crossing that finish line leading first with their lower body by backing them up a bit and asking them to do a slow, controlled stroke across the finish line.

To teach them not to lean forward when skating backward, I will first have them stand behind that line (ideally in front of an area of the glass where they can see their reflection) just like they did when we worked on not breaking at the waist while skating forward (described above). While standing on two feet with their toes and knees ready to cross that finish line, I then turn them around without having them move out of position. Keep them on two feet. Hopefully they can see their reflection in the glass and are able to see that their head and shoulders (upper body) now crosses the finish line first.

[falen]

No one has said my dd is breaking at the waist, people just say that in the stands and I'm like huh.  Though your description makes me think she may be breaking doing edges.