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Author Topic: mom of newbie skater wondering what are cross cuts??  (Read 4368 times)

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Offline sleepyhead

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mom of newbie skater wondering what are cross cuts??
« on: October 01, 2010, 11:18:31 PM »
What are cross cuts, and why is 2 pushes each (not 1) superior in the minds of judges??

Offline JimStanmore

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Re: mom of newbie skater wondering what are cross cuts??
« Reply #1 on: October 02, 2010, 02:28:00 AM »
I have been wondering the same thing.  I thought they were like a crossover but without the turn.  In other words, you move sideways like I've seen in a hockey drill.  Then Encyclopedia Britannica totally confused me: http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic-video/281190/82952/A-forward-crosscut-may-look-difficult-but-these-beginners-show.

Then I found this in Skating By John Moyer Heathcote, C. G. Tebbutt, T. Maxwell Witham, Henry A. Buck, John Kerr, Ormond Hake at http://books.google.com/books?id=TiUkAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA121&lpg=PA121&dq=skating+crosscut&source=bl&ots=I1-dh7Bo7Q&sig=W-tHKiCYrYKHOboGrJDEKwOcAiY&hl=en&ei=HOCmTNWhF8KqlAeMkpGvDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CBcQ6AEwATgK#v=onepage&q=skating%20crosscut&f=false:



The figure is called a crosscut.  You skate the first curve with the free leg forward and allow the blade to come to a stop by shifting your weight torwards the front of the blade.  Then you draw the skate backwards by swinging the free leg from front to back to make the straight line (A to B.)  You allow the blade to stop again and push forward while swinging the free leg from back to front to push into the second curve.  The A to B can be straight or curved and it is all done on one edge. (Outside Forward Crosscut)

Coaches, are either of these the crosscuts we have to do?

Offline Isk8NYC

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Re: mom of newbie skater wondering what are cross cuts??
« Reply #2 on: October 02, 2010, 06:00:42 AM »
The first link is just elementary forward crossovers.  I think most instructors teach them as "step and cross" but I haven't ever done them holding hands.  Interesting twist - it's easier to do things with support, but I'd be worried about one clumsy step taking down my entire group lesson.

The second link is a Figures pattern, which no one would expect a skater to do today.


My first thought was "cross-cuts" in the OP's case were the inverted-edge back crossovers that Kristi Yamaguchi used.  However, if the OP's DD is a newbie, that wouldn't make sense - those are advanced moves.

I think the OP is from Australia, so perhaps "crosscut" is another word for crossover.  I've heard "crosscut" used to describe to doing backward crossovers without the crossing foot leaving the ice, as opposed to the "step over" backward crossovers where the skater picks up the crossing foot.  (ISI uses the pick-up version)

In the USFSA Basic Skills program, the Basic 5 skaters have to be able to do five backward crossovers in a row to fulfill the requirement.  This is to demonstrate control - one good crossover could be a fluke, but having the control to do five in a row means the skater has mastered the transitions as well as the crossing part.
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Offline sleepyhead

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Re: mom of newbie skater wondering what are cross cuts??
« Reply #3 on: October 02, 2010, 06:34:13 AM »
I got the phrase from a Canadian's judges blog where she talks about how she scores beginners:
http://skatingjudge.blogspot.com/2010/08/pcs-series-singles-skating-skills.html

Offline Sierra

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Re: mom of newbie skater wondering what are cross cuts??
« Reply #4 on: October 02, 2010, 08:57:01 AM »
Crosscuts are backward crossovers, just some skating systems have different names for them.

They are commonly described to look like 'running backwards' when non skaters watch. They're used to gain speed for jumps and spins, and most skaters can gain more speed doing crosscuts than forward crossovers.

The first push is the outside foot, it makes a C shape. The outside foot is the right foot if the skater is doing right over left. Right over left goes in a clockwise circle. Vice versa for left.
The C push is similar to the push learned in backwards half swizzles.
The second push is the underfoot pushing underneath the crossing foot, then lifting and putting in place to prepare for the next C push. The underpush is usually the push that's missing, and judges don't like this because then there's very little power.

Done well, the skater will have a very big, wide C push, with the leg being extended straight at the peak of the C, then a very big, very crossed underpush, with the leg extended straight as it is being lifted. Also, you should barely noticed the underpush leg being lifted. The outside leg stays on the ice at all time.

Offline Sk8tmum

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Re: mom of newbie skater wondering what are cross cuts??
« Reply #5 on: October 02, 2010, 12:53:05 PM »
Crosscuts as a term are indeed used in Canada. In the early LTS, for example, we teach (or used to, our LTS is changing), what they call "walking crosscuts" in which the skater stands and crosses each foot over in sequence along a horizontal line.  Then, they progress to skating crosscuts. 

Crosscuts are "stepping" over and crossovers are "motion and edges" per my DD the Canadian judge.

Offline JimStanmore

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Re: mom of newbie skater wondering what are cross cuts??
« Reply #6 on: October 02, 2010, 07:03:07 PM »
Sierra, it is interesting you mentioned the C-cut.  When I was researching this question I kept coming across C-cuts and thought the C was from the word crossover.  I discovered, instead, that the first coach to teach it to groups called it a C-cut because it makes the "C" shape.

I had a feeling they were crossovers or something like them.

Sk8tmum, are we talking "Big girl" and "Little girl"  crossovers?







Online icedancer

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Re: mom of newbie skater wondering what are cross cuts??
« Reply #7 on: October 02, 2010, 07:17:37 PM »
I am curious to see a blog written by a Canadian judge - do you have a link?  Forgive me if you have already posted that.

IMHO there are as many ways to do a cross-cut (or back cross-over) as there are skaters and coaches.  Believe me I have learned every style and as you progress you learn to get more power from each push within the move - we have had many many discussions on this topic over the years here on skatingforums... ;)

Offline drskater

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Offline Sk8tmum

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Re: mom of newbie skater wondering what are cross cuts??
« Reply #9 on: October 02, 2010, 07:56:21 PM »

Sk8tmum, are we talking "Big girl" and "Little girl"  crossovers?


Neither of the videos demonstrate "cross cuts" as are taught in our LTS program. Picture skater standing on two skate. Picks up left skate, crosses in front of right skate, plunks skate down. Picks up right skate, crosses it behind left skate, and plunks it down. Picks up left skate ... etc etc etc. In a nice straight line. That's a walking cross cut. Then, they start doing that while moving, and they are still 'crosscuts'.  Later, they move to learning crossovers when balance and flow is better.

Here's a video link of both "walking crosscuts" and the next stage "skating crosscuts". The goal is to have the calf of the crossing leg touch the skating leg. Otherwise, apparently, it's "not good enough" - or so my tiny DD's coach has mandated!

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic-video/281190/82952/A-forward-crosscut-may-look-difficult-but-these-beginners-show

The best explanation I can type (I can't video the two pairs of feet that just demonstrated it to me): Forward crosscuts you cross the foot over so that the toes are in a 45-degree line when the crossing foot is compared to the skating foot; in a forward crossover the crossing foot lands in front of the skating foot, more in a vertical line.

According to my DS, because we got into a philosophical thing about this, he does crosscuts into his 2A takeoff as crossovers wouldn't give him enough power to the takeoff edge.

It's odd, until this thread started, I never thought about the difference - thanks for making me think!

Offline sleepyhead

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Re: mom of newbie skater wondering what are cross cuts??
« Reply #10 on: October 02, 2010, 08:00:00 PM »
I am curious to see a blog written by a Canadian judge - do you have a link?  Forgive me if you have already posted that...
It was in my post.  ;D
I love the blog. It's new but fascinating in a comfortingly basic kind of way (DD is a beginner and I know nothing about skating). I loved where she talks about judges views of hair styles!!

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Re: mom of newbie skater wondering what are cross cuts??
« Reply #11 on: October 04, 2010, 12:04:55 PM »
In advanced back crossovers, the inside edge push is not a C-cut, it is a one footed push that takes place while the "under" foot is free and returning to the ice for the next under push.  This is illustrated in Charles Butler's Physics on Ice, Vol 1
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Offline slusher

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Re: mom of newbie skater wondering what are cross cuts??
« Reply #12 on: October 04, 2010, 01:45:48 PM »
I'm in Canada and they're called crosscuts   - xcut, everywhere, in both figure skating and hockey.    No matter what they're called, they're expected to have pushes by both feet and be things of perfect technique.   It's not one term for beginners and another for advanced.