skatingforums
On the Ice => Sitting on the Boards Rink Side => Topic started by: littlerain on June 17, 2014, 04:48:30 PM
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I remember when I skated briefly as a kid, I found Mohawks totally weird. Just couldn't wrap my head around it.
Now as an adult, I don't find Mohawks weird at all (though the others in my class do!) now I can't wrap my head around backwards pivots!
So thinking about this, I was totally curious what elements, if any, you find totally strange to do. How did you manage to finally learn them?
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Back inside edges. My body completely refuses to cooperate.
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Figure loops. I still can't do a forward outside, but I can do a back outside loop now. Ironically, I got that one pretty quickly because I totally "get" the back outside pivot and I told myself I was just doing a back outside pivot without putting a toe in the ice, LOL!
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Figure loops. I still can't do a forward outside, but I can do a back outside loop now. Ironically, I got that one pretty quickly because I totally "get" the back outside pivot and I told myself I was just doing a back outside pivot without putting a toe in the ice, LOL!
I can't wrap my head around the left back outside loop! When I do the right BO loop, I think of the loop jump- and instead of going to the toe, I just continue on the edge. But the left BO loop- that's a different story! I will try the pivot trick!
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I don't understand backward cross rolls or power pulls. It's not something I've had in an LTS class or in lesson but we do them in power class. Or at least some people do them while people like me attempt to move backwards while turning your head enough to see the coach.
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I don't know about weird, but my muscles get tired really, really fast on backwards power pulls.
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Back inside edges! And I haven't quite figured out to do them correctly...yet. :)
The mohawk used to be like that too...and ISI's "back wiggles"...and the half flip.
Almost every level has had one of those "weird" skills, I feel like. ???
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Schaefer pushes. Weird stuff.
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while turning your head enough to see the coach.
Turning your head will make it 10X harder.
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I don't know about weird, but my muscles get tired really, really fast on backwards power pulls.
That's kind of the point! I've started doing a lap of each power pull as a warmup. It burns!
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The mohawk used to be like that too...and ISI's "back wiggles"...and the half flip.
I failed 'back wiggles' in Pre-alpha I. (http://icedoesntcare.blogspot.com/2013/03/my-first-skating-test.html)
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Half loop. And lutz. Weird jumps.
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Any of those half-jumps like half-flip and half- lutz. Clunk-clunk.
I don't just anymore but those jumps are just... odd - not sure what they teach the skater - maybe the entrance....
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I failed 'back wiggles' in Pre-alpha I. (http://icedoesntcare.blogspot.com/2013/03/my-first-skating-test.html)
That post is so funny! :)
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Turning your head will make it 10X harder.
Of that I have no doubt! Sadly, these fell into the category of skills I hadn't learned before I started power. I was the last one in line so I wound up turning my head to try and figure out what was going on and quickly gave up and turned around so I could try to figure it out. But, I still can't quite get them. And I think powerpulls look weird when other people do them as well.
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Back inside edges! And I haven't quite figured out to do them correctly...yet. :)
Totally had a moment with those last week! Took me a few minutes to stop switching to outside lol!
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Any of those half-jumps like half-flip and half- lutz. Clunk-clunk.
I don't just anymore but those jumps are just... odd - not sure what they teach the skater - maybe the entrance....
There's a 1/2 lutz? I was spared that, thankfully. Totally agree. 1/2 jumps are just weird.
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I find it hard to look inside the circle on a backward edge. I want to look outside the circle even if my hands and arms are facing into the circle. I guess this is why an outside step around after a 3 turn or mohawk feels easy and an inside step to forward feels awkward.
This may come from teaching kids to ski. I spend about 1/4 of a lesson skiing backwards constantly looking over my shoulder to see where I am going. You have to look to the outside of the curve to see down the slope. Twenty years of muscle memory is hard to overcome.
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Spread eagles.
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My body just screams "don't" when I try to enter that half lutz! And the half toe walley entrance, maybe cause it's on a back outside edge, is driving me NUTS. :))
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Totally agree with the half flip, and half lutz! I get that they're there to teach property entry and picking technique early on, but they're not pretty, and the forward landing (clunk!) is awkward. They're also easy to over-rotate if you have any kind of speed and power going into them (although I suppose the thought is that at the lower levels, most skaters probably aren't going into them with much speed or power).
What has me totally confused right now is the mazurka. My coach just showed me this today. I'd heard of it but never learned it in the 5 years I skated before, never knew what it was, and honestly don't think I ever knew anyone who did it! Anyway, I get that the entry is like a toe loop... but then something about sliding to the side and doing a bunny hop? All I know is that I couldn't wrap my head around it, and after I got the entry and picked, I'd spring/jump opposite of what you're supposed to do. Every. Time. My coach said what I was doing (every time) was actually called a cherry flip... which no one does anymore, but apparently I'm bringing it back. Haha! I think I'm going to have to go on YouTube for the mazurka and figure it out off the ice first.
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I disagree with the half flip and lutz being "awkward" - done well they can be beautiful and effortless looking jumps. Lots of very high level skaters use them in footwork sequences (often rotating their opposite direction). They are also important for reinforcing the correct take off without worrying about rotating the jump. I still can't reliably do a lutz, but I have a lovely half lutz :) We also wouldn't have split jumps without the half flip.
I do agree that the mazurka is awkward and difficult to learn for a lot of skaters, but the mazurka is important because when done correctly it teaches the correct foot action on the take-off to avoid a toe-waltz and later a toe-axel. Unfortunately many USFS BS programs are a little lax in both their teaching of and later their evaluation of this skill, so kids still end up floundering around when they learn the toe loop later in FS2, and the pivoting action on the take-off is very hard for them to do - toe-waltzing in comparison is VERY easy.
That said, the one skill I just don't "get" myself is an outside ina bauer. It doesn't make sense to me how anyone can skate in that position, and never has - even when I was younger and could easily do an outside spread eagle I couldn't do an outside ina bauer. I can do a slow/pathetic inside one, but not an outside - I've had multiple skaters/coaches try to explain it, and in just as many different ways, and it just doesn't work.
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What has me totally confused right now is the mazurka. My coach just showed me this today. I'd heard of it but never learned it in the 5 years I skated before, never knew what it was, and honestly don't think I ever knew anyone who did it! Anyway, I get that the entry is like a toe loop... but then something about sliding to the side and doing a bunny hop? All I know is that I couldn't wrap my head around it, and after I got the entry and picked, I'd spring/jump opposite of what you're supposed to do. Every. Time. My coach said what I was doing (every time) was actually called a cherry flip... which no one does anymore, but apparently I'm bringing it back. Haha! I think I'm going to have to go on YouTube for the mazurka and figure it out off the ice first.
In the UK a cherry flip IS a toe loop. So if you can find out what your coach means I'd be really interested.
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Right now, back right crossovers. I can do left ok, so long as I'm by the boards. Right feels completely unnatural... feet were not built to move that way!
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Not that I've tried it, but I can't quite understand why the solo dance rules we have say that to get an extra level in a solo spin you can do it by spinning in the reverse direction. But you can't change feet because that would be considered a combination spin. So you're meant to spin and pull out on the same foot (is back spin) and then somehow get into a spin in the opposite direction. This apparently is the same difficulty as doing a sit into layback. Who thought up these rules? It's plain peculiar even contemplating doing a spin like that.
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Right now, back right crossovers. I can do left ok, so long as I'm by the boards. Right feels completely unnatural... feet were not built to move that way!
Whenever I find something totally weird in one direction but not the other, it often comes down to my overall body alignment. For example, with my back left crossovers, I was not "hugging the circle" as much and looking down (concentrating makes me look at the ice lol). Once I worked out where I put my body, and practiced more, it has felt less weird :)
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Toe Walleys. ??? There's a reason nobody jumps those in competition.
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There's a 1/2 lutz? I was spared that, thankfully. Totally agree. 1/2 jumps are just weird.
Ballet Jumps are pretty, though. XD
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In the UK a cherry flip IS a toe loop. So if you can find out what your coach means I'd be really interested.
Oh, funny! I got the mazurka worked out (I think...), but I think what I was doing before picking with my left toe while on a RBO edge--which is right--but then I think I was doing a little hop/pivot forward (CCW), kicking out my left leg (the picking foot) and doing a hop/bounce on the right. I kind of had the idea, but was doing it with opposite feet, haha. That's what my coach called a cherry flip.
I do agree that the mazurka is awkward and difficult to learn for a lot of skaters, but the mazurka is important because when done correctly it teaches the correct foot action on the take-off to avoid a toe-waltz and later a toe-axel.
Yep! That's exactly why I'm learning the mazurka. I just started private lessons a few weeks ago and my coach asked if I could do a toe loop. I said I could 15 years ago, but don't have muscle memory for it anymore. She said, good, we'll start with the mazurka so you'll have really good technique on your toe loop. I'm glad we're starting this way instead of having me just go straight into a weak, small/cheated toe loop. When I skated in the 90s, no one at my rink started with mazurkas--everyone just went straight into the toe loop. For some reason, I vaguely remember ISI Freestyle 2 requiring a choice of ballet jump or mazurka (but maybe I'm just imagining that) only the ballet jump was taught.
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For some reason, I vaguely remember ISI Freestyle 2 requiring a choice of ballet jump or mazurka (but maybe I'm just imagining that) only the ballet jump was taught.
The Mazurka's always been an "Uncaptured Maneuver" under ISI rules. It can be used in anyone's program. However, it's an almost-mythical skating creature because many LTS instructors (BSS and ISI) don't know how to perform or teach the jump so they teach it as a toe-turning bunny hop or a side toe hop, if at all. If you search this site for #jumpclinic, there's a thread on half jumps with some video and tips on the Mazurka.
My first coach (who was a ballet convert, not a competitive skater) initially taught me a Cherry Flip, which was not a Toe Loop - it was really a Toe Waltz. Put the toepick in, turn around on it, and then do a waltz jump. I have an awful toe loop to this day, although it gets better if I practice and remember my second coach's tutelage. Muscle memory is hard to beat. (For the record, my second coach not only taught me the Mazurka and re-taught the Toe Loop, she put the Mazurka in a lot of my skating programs, to reinforce the skill.)
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For the record, my second coach not only taught me the Mazurka and re-taught the Toe Loop, she put the Mazurka in a lot of my skating programs, to reinforce the skill.
Real Mazurkas are awkward and not an easy maneuver! Great toeloop takeoff exercise, though. Good for your second coach (and KR1981's coach)! :D
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Not that I've tried it, but I can't quite understand why the solo dance rules we have say that to get an extra level in a solo spin you can do it by spinning in the reverse direction. But you can't change feet because that would be considered a combination spin. So you're meant to spin and pull out on the same foot (is back spin) and then somehow get into a spin in the opposite direction. This apparently is the same difficulty as doing a sit into layback. Who thought up these rules? It's plain peculiar even contemplating doing a spin like that.
I don't know about the solo dance rules, but in IJS singles skating rules you get a level feature for doing a single position camel or sit spin in one direction immediately followed by the same spin in the other direction (change foot camel "CCSp" or change-foot sit spin "CSSp"). Unfortunately, in typical ISU fashion, the wording doesn't specify that you're doing a spin with a change of foot but no change of position; it just says, " Both directions immediately following each other in sit or camel spin."
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Real Mazurkas are awkward and not an easy maneuver! Great toeloop takeoff exercise, though. Good for your second coach (and KR1981's coach)! :D
Tell me about it! I've been studying YouTube videos, and found an old thread on here, and am finding that it's a whole lot harder than it looks! My leg wants to kick out (like a bunny hop) rather than scissor. Funny, my coached showed me last week and I thought to myself, oh, it's a little half jump... once I get it straightened out, I'll pick this up in no time. Famous last words, hahahaha. But I do want to learn to do a mazurka correctly, so I can have a good toe loop--and not the little toe waltz hops that I see so many skaters do.
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I don't know about the solo dance rules, but in IJS singles skating rules you get a level feature for doing a single position camel or sit spin in one direction immediately followed by the same spin in the other direction (change foot camel "CCSp" or change-foot sit spin "CSSp"). Unfortunately, in typical ISU fashion, the wording doesn't specify that you're doing a spin with a change of foot but no change of position; it just says, " Both directions immediately following each other in sit or camel spin."
The IJS single rules allow you to change the feet to push off into the other spin direction. The solo dance rules we're using, only allow that for a change foot spin (which in dance is a combination spin unlike free which calls anything with a change of position a combination). But for a spin with no change of foot, you are meant to pull out of one spin and immediately get into a spin going the other direction, which requires you to pull out on your back edge, change edge and get yourself spinning again. The only positive, is that unlike free skating, we're allowed to do the reverse spin in the upright position which means that if you are allowed to change feet in your spin, it's easier to achieve than for free skating.
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Mazurkas and ballet jumps just about killed me.
Right now, back inside edges and Ina Bauer. I cannot, for the life of me, work out why the Ina Bauer is a required element in Aussie Skate.
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Schaefer pushes. Weird stuff.
Ditto on Schaefer pushes. I can get the job done on one side but not the other. I have to keep telling myself to turn out more so that I push with the ball of the blade and not the heel.
The Tango stop is related to the push. Also v. strange. I thought that once I got the push to work the stop would come quickly--not so!
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Add me to the "mazurka is weird" club. I never have been able to do the "scissor" action my coach wants every time we play with this one.
I never liked the ballet jump either - but I have exactly zero "ballet" skills. Ditto the half toe walley. Who actually does that jump other than FS2 skaters?
I LOL'd at Agnes and the back wiggles. They're fine when I'm teaching tots and younger kids (I use the "wag your tail like a really happy puppy" analogy to get them going), but they just don't work on older kids and adults.
The other awkward move in Basic Skills...forward alternating swizzle pumps in Basic 2. I just can't figure out a really good way to explain these and the kids usually end up doing awkward looking forward swizzle things.
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I still to this day find forward Mohawks awkward ??? I mean I can do them, but even as a kid I thought them to just feel off lol
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Back crossrolls.
The road to hell is lined with failed back crossrolls.
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Back 3-turns. Those things are very tricky
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Back 3-turns. Those things are very tricky
And for me the back inside especially... Yowsa.
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Back crossrolls.
The road to hell is lined with failed back crossrolls.
The hockey coach said not to attempt back crossrolls without a helmet on.
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The hockey coach said not to attempt back crossrolls without a helmet on.
That's because they can't use toepicks1 ;)
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I remember that the whole concept of the salchow jump just seemed wrong when it was being explained to me. The discussion with the coach went something like this...
"Let me see if I have this right, I make some turns and end up skating backwards, then you want me to jump back toward where I just came from?"
"Basically, yes"
"I just stepped through it without jumping, and I can't see how it's possible. Are you playing a mean trick on me, coach?"
"Nope, just trust me, and do it!"
<shrug> "OK, here goes!"
It ended up being one of the easier jumps to learn and the only one that I ever doubled. It still seems like Newtonian physics can't possibly explain this jump though. Even today, the forces I feel when doing this jump are different from the others.
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The sal is the only jump where I feel like I'm flying and doesn't scare the $^!+ outta me. I just wish I could control the swingy free leg more consistantly.
Now loop? I don't get that at all. My coach is trying her best to teach it to me and I keep doing a half loop. It's apparently pretty good, but not what I'm supposed to be doing.
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Inside spirals, in any direction.
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Ha, yes! Spirals.
I always felt absurd doing them for the moves test. And when a friend made me wear some Santa gear to clown around for a picture, it got even weirder. Here's evidence...
(http://www.afterness.com/skating/images/bs_santa_spiral_sml.jpg)
Blackmail material. I just plain don't do them anymore because I feel silly.
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You know Bill, if you get a decent Santa suit, rinks will pay you to skate at Christmas on public. Especially since you would be a "REAL BEARD" Santa (RBS).
I know a couple who skate as Santa and Mrs Claus every year. He has a nice suit (not some crappy POS) and the kids just go wild since he's an RBS. (yes they know when 'santa' is teeage rink guard in a cheap suit)
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You know Bill, if you get a decent Santa suit, rinks will pay you to skate at Christmas on public.
Hey, I like that! It would be another profit center for Bill_S Heavy Industries!
One snag is that there's only one rink within 75 miles (the university's - read "cheapskates"), and Santa's sleigh is over 10 years old.
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If God, evolution, or the aliens of "2001: A Space Odyssey" had meant us to skate, we would have been born with blades on our feet.
Is there anything about skating that isn't weird? :)
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If God, evolution, or the aliens of "2001: A Space Odyssey" had meant us to skate, we would have been born with blades on our feet.
Is there anything about skating that isn't weird? :)
Yes, this! At my first lesson my coach told me this is no longer earthly movement, and that it would all require a whole new outlook. So far, I fully agree. I've only been working on it since the end of April, so basically it all still feels weird. :)
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Ditto on the back inside edging... I somehow managed to do those with new blades. It still didn't make me comfortable, though. ???
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Back 3-turns. Those things are very tricky
This!
For me, they are just about possible on my good side, but simply do not happen on my bad. :-\
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This!
For me, they are just about possible on my good side, but simply do not happen on my bad. :-\
Yeah... those are hard. Sometimes I hit the toe pick or trip over my heel and crash. My coach does this funny "BWAHBWAH NO" when I don't check them. ;D Hello unintentional spin!
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Outside Mohawks and backwards cross rolls. Who decided that such things were necessary? Lol
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Outside Mohawks and backwards cross rolls. Who decided that such things were necessary? Lol
+1
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Ice dancers.