skatingforums
On the Ice => Off-Ice Training for Skaters => Topic started by: TheWriterInBlack on April 06, 2019, 11:15:26 PM
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I first learned to skate when I was 18 (which makes it about 40 years ago). Strictly self taught. I was okay on forward skating, forward edges and crossovers. Never really "got" backward skating. And then a few years later life happened and I never got onto the ice again until recently when my daughter got interested in skating. As it happens, we're taking lessons side by side with each other. Frankly, she's better than I am. I have discovered that, no, it's not like riding a bike and I'm having more difficulty relearning now than I had learning the first time.
That said, I have two factors that severely limit my ice time. The first is foot pain--arch issues I'll be talking with my podiatrist about. The other is my ankles. I've got my own skates, not rentals from the rink, and they fit well. I double lace them through the speed laces to keep them tight over the ankles for maximum support. Yet after 15-20 minutes at the public skate I get so wobbly in the ankles that I have to stop.
Most every exercise I have seen for building strength in the ankles is based on front to back strength--chiefly rising on your toes. What I'm needing here is the side-to side supporting strength. Can someone point me at good exercises for this? I figure skating itself will strengthen that eventually, but anything I can do off-ice to get there quicker would be very helpful.
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The other is my ankles. I've got my own skates, not rentals from the rink, and they fit well. I double lace them through the speed laces to keep them tight over the ankles for maximum support. Yet after 15-20 minutes at the public skate I get so wobbly in the ankles that I have to stop.
Most every exercise I have seen for building strength in the ankles is based on front to back strength--chiefly rising on your toes. What I'm needing here is the side-to side supporting strength.
What boots do you have? Double lacing will help reduce the chances of the lacing coming loose during a session; but if you've got the proper laces and the proper lacing technique, single lacing will be fine. If your boots don't have the proper support (particularly lateral support) built-in, however, double lacing won't remedy the deficiency.
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And if the bottom of the foot doesn't match the shape of the bottom of the skate (which can be changed with something as simple as adding tape, in the places you need extra support - usually placed on the bottom side of the insole - or if the sides of the boot don't press tight against the sides of your feet, adding adhesive foam like Moleskin to the sides of the boot), lacing super-super-tight will just create more arch pain.
What do you mean by the speed laces? Do you mean the hooks? They aren't just there for speed. They also help you draw the lace a little tighter than holes do.
Going back through the hooks a second time does make it tighter - and some people do that - but, at least for me, that isn't necessary. (Then again, I don't jump much, so I don't need super-tight.) And it won't prevent gradual looseness migration from loose points at the bottom or the very top, if you let either be loose.
For me, it is just as important that the lower part of the lacing be tight as the upper part. Else the looseness at the bottom spreads up towards the top. If you WANT he bottom looser - or as some people do (especially if the boot doesn't exactly match the 3D shape of the foot) - or you want the middle part where the foot bends looser - there are techniques to lock the lace against slippage at the transition point(s). For example, you can tie the first half of a square knot (the cross-and-under), or even the first half of a surgeon's knot (which has an extra turn), where you don't want the lace to slip. It's not perfect, but it helps.
I don't do that. But I pull the lace tight everywhere, starting at the bottom (VERY important - don't just pull the top tight - one of the most common mistakes I saw while working a skate counter). Then before tying the top knot, I start over pulling tight again at the bottom, and work my way up. (Some people use lace hooks, but I don't need to.)
The other trick is learning to tie the bow tie at the top without slippage. When most people tie shoes, they let the lace slip back a little as they tie the bow. In particular, they might do the cross-and-under, keeping the laces tight. But as they tie the loop-and-around second half of the knot, they allow one or both lace ends to go slack. That is just fine on shoes that don't need to stay super-tight. But not for skates, or other specialized shoes that need to be very tight for safety.
I sometimes tie the bow as a double slipped square knot - i.e., I tie the first cross and under, pull it extra tight, then grab each end from the middle as a loop (technically a "bite" in knot terminology because I don't do a line cross in the loop), and tie those bites in the second cross-and-under of a square knot. It actually results in the same final knot, because a show bow tie is typically a double slipped square knot, but tied that way, there is no backwards slippage as I tie it.
I also always turn the bow tie into a double knot (which means you take the loops for a THIRD cross-and-under, turning it into the start of a type of braid), so the bow tie itself doesn't gradually slip.
One more trick. Make sure the lace isn't twisted. If it is, the cross sectional area is less, and it presses harder against your skin. Some people with soft skin find that the lace otherwise cuts into their fingers, if they pull it tight.
In fact, I use a circular line (3 mm nylon "parachute cord" or "utility cord", from a camping or climbing store, or comparable), which really doesn't slip - and you can stretch it with more tension, and you don't have to worry about twisting. But that may be overkill. I mostly do it because I love the bright colors it comes in.
If the lace doesn't slip, it doesn't need to be initially as tight to begin with. If you have arch pains, you probably don't want to make them worse that way. And, frankly, I'm not sure it is great for the feet to be initially tighter than is needed. Tie it right, without allowing slippage, and it will stay the way you want it to.
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P.S. Ice skating IS my way to strengthen ankles.
I doubt you will find a more effective way, though roller skating is fairly similar if you need more time.
What you might find, if you look on-line are exercises to strengthen them that require less strength than skating.
But if you aren't jumping or doing extreme leans, your boots fit and are stiff enough (they should have cost at least $100 - $150, in the U.S.), and you tie your laces in a way that they are and stay reasonably tight, you shouldn't feel particularly wobbly.
OTOH, keeping up with a child may be a lost cause, unless the child is very young and is still uncoordinated. :)
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There really isn't any place locally that sells figure skates. (Well, "Play it again sports" but try finding something in my size there...) I ended up going to Amazon. What I got was right at the bottom end of that "at least $100 to $150". These: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01MG89YNG/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o09_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 The fit is pretty good. When laced up it's snug all around my foot. The double lacing is more to keep it tight than to make it extra tight.
I understand that skating is the best way to condition for skating (true of most activities). The problem is that between scheduling and how quickly I run out of steam there are sharp limits on how much time I can spend on the ice. Add in that I'm 58 years old, significantly overweight and way out of shape and I'm looking for anything that can help...or will once I recover from today's injury (new technique in class, got too close to the wall and tried to stop too quickly, fell and landed with my leg bent under me so that I sprained my ankle--not all the boots and exercise in the world was going to save that). I'm pushing as hard as I can--perhaps too hard given what jut happened?--but if there's anything I can do between sessions on the ice that can help so that I can spend more time in each session actually skating and less having to rest and recover, I would really appreciate that.
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There are ankle exercises.
From google:
Trace the alphabet with your toe, which encourages ankle movement in all directions. Trace the alphabet 1 to 3 times.
Sit in a chair with your foot flat on the floor. Slowly move your knee side to side while keeping your foot pressed flat. Continue for 2 to 3 minutes.
Also, consider acquiring a rocker board which I use to my benefit.
Agree with the responders that I would not rule out the skates or their fit being the problem.
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You could also practice falling gently. A fall of the type you describe probably shouldn't have hurt you - unless you made yourself stiff as you fell. If you made yourself more loose, and didn't fight the fall so much, healthy human bodies can easily take a standing height fall - it wouldn't make sense for a two footed beastie not to have gentle ways to fall.
Start fall practice, without skates, on a soft mat, from sitting position. Figure out how to fall gently in all directions (front, back, left side, right side). (Back requires you to tuck your head, so you don't hit the back of it hard, and roll.) Other directions can be a tucked roll, or slide. Advance to kneeling position, then to partial and full standing position. Try to start the roll or slide along soft padded body part, not bone. Start over again on the ice. If you like, I have a web page on falling gently.
However - while it is a little hard to tell from the picture, the picture makes it look like these are pretty minimal (single layer leather) boots, which provide little support, especially for someone who is a bit on the heavy side. Making them super-tight may only help some. If there is no stretched out ("punched out") contour that fits your ankle bones, which appears to be true of the picture, those ankle bones may be the only part of the upper part of your feet that touches - in which case it may hurt to skate, and the support is minimal. In a properly fit boot, the boot fitter made a rounded shape right at the ankle bones that fits you specifically. There are tools you could buy to do the same thing - but they cost a fair proportion of the cost of your boots.
Nonetheless, properly laced, the boots would not come loose - unless what is really happening is that such a minimal boot is breaking down. This usually shows up as a crease formation, which would otherwise take hundreds to thousands of hours of skating to create a noticeable crease.
Can you ask your coach, or another good skater, whether your boots are adequate? And then ask your boot seller, if it wasn't mail order, whether they would charge to put in the "boot punch" at your ankles? Don't be shy about asking good skaters this - they tend to love to talk about boots, even obsess about them.
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I agree that the photo appears to show skates that are much too thin to fully support "mature" ankles.
At the rink next time, see if you can compare your skates with those of a more advanced skater. I believe that you will find them much thinner with less support. Your ankles should never be able to buckle in modern figure skates. Boots should not flex much at all from side-to-side.
Perhaps new boots would solve the arch issue too. Even if you don't jump, look for boots rated for single jumps from good brands like Riedell, Risport, Jackson, etc.
Also see if you can purchase your skates from a good fitter (ask around). They know how to equate shoe sizes to skate sizes among the different brands. For example, I wear a size 7-1/2 to 8 shoe, but need a size 7 Riedell boot.
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Everyone's so kind on this forum, so I'll mention the elephant in the room. These skates are nice-looking, but they are "pond skates" for recreational skating only. Good for toodling around on a pond, but not for figure skating. Reasons? Very little support, lack of ankle wrapping, tiny toe picks, really long blade tails and flat rocker profile on the blades. All this can be seen in the product photos but moreso in the buyer's photos that they shared on Amazon. (Side note: I've never seen blade tails that long on a rec skate!)
Weak ankles are a myth unless you've had an injury or you've had some weight variance that leaves you lacking in muscle tone. If you have trouble walking and doing stairs in regular shoes, then you might have ankle strength issues, but I sincerely doubt it very much. Given the number of reviews on Amazon saying the laces are "too weak," and mentioning how tight they have to pull the laces, I'd say the boot support is what's really lacking.
The foot pain in the arches is usually a sign that the boots are too narrow for the skater's feet. That doesn't necessarily mean you need custom insoles; it usually means you need to get a pair of boots that are a little wider. These one-width-fits-all cheap skates are a recipe for foot pain since the width sizing is usually too narrow for most adults.
If you want to make do with these skates, get some industrial-strength duct tape and put layer after layer on them. If you have room, start wearing ankle sleeves for support. Have the boot stretched for width - pay a pro shop or shoe repair place to do it permanently. Get them sharpened by a real professional and ask if they can at least put a rocker on the blade. It'll get you through Basic 2 or 3 but at that point, invest in some good skates.
I don't understand why people buy skates based on price and delude themselves into thinking they found a bargain and the problem is with their body. Good skates are the ONLY required piece of equipment for this sport. The old saying of "buy cheap, buy twice" is definitely true in this case.
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There really isn't any place locally that sells figure skates.
This usually isn't true. Did you ask the skating director or any of the instructors where to buy skates? If it's a year-round rink, there's usually a pro shop or local sports place that they refer skaters to for equipment. If there's a hockey league, there's some business selling equipment.
Figure skates are a specialty item, so the hockey pro shop may not carry them. In cases like that, the skating school director or an instructor often steps in to do sizing, fitting and sales. The experienced skating parents can tell you who they go to for skates and (just as important) for sharpenings.
I would bet that the skates came "pre-sharpened" from Amazon, which is usually a haphazard job done at a factory somewhere. Factory sharpenings are notorious for being uneven, barely sharp and short-lived. (Adults often find the ice very hard to navigate on dull blades, resulting in spills and falls.) Find out who sharpens figure skates and use them after every 20-25 hours of skating. Don't use the rink's hockey guy unless you want the blade tails buzzed off and the rockers completely flattened. They'll try to put a hockey blade sharpening on the figure skates, thereby ruining the blades.
Don't be afraid to ask around, especially if you cross paths with another adult who figure skates. It's a learning curve.
If all else fails, there are online retailers for figure skates that are far better than Amazon storefronts selling knock-off skates. Yeah, you'll pay more but it's worth it not to have the hassle of chronic pain and frequent injuries. YOu're paying for experience and knowledge to buy the right skate for your foot the first time.
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I did ask the local all instructors. There are a couple of hockey supply places but the only place they could poi t me at for figure skates is Play it again Sports where fi ding anything in my size that hasn't been beat to death was challenging g to say the least.
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I've been looking at online sources and have found myself drifting toward Riedell's "Stride" model, which seems to be aimed at my skill level. Good use of my tax return, I think.
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I've been looking at online sources and have found myself drifting toward Riedell's "Stride" model, which seems to be aimed at my skill level. Good use of my tax return, I think.
Tax return? What's that?
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Tax return? What's that?
Yeah, Agnes, tell me about it! I haven't had a tax refund since I retired. That hurts!
To The Writer in Black: I think that the Riedell Strides would be worlds better than the skates you have. Just get a good fit, or they will wobble side-to-side too.
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I did ask the local all instructors. There are a couple of hockey supply places but the only place they could poi t me at for figure skates is Play it again Sports
Wow! Hard to believe a figure skate instructor would do that. Unless the person running your local Play It Again Sports is a LOT more competent than the usual proprietor, and he either has a huge selection, or he takes orders for new boots. There is nothing in theory that says a competent person can't work there - except that the small profit margins wouldn't pay him or her as well as he or she could make elsewhere.
The reason we are all pushing you to do it right is because a lot of us have made costly and painful mistakes. It's extremely common.
For example, I broke a leg skating in Play It Again Sports skates - partly because they didn't quite fit, partly because they weren't stiff enough, partly because I didn't yet know how to fall right. The skates were cheap, but it proved to be a false economy, and it put a major damper on my rate of progress. It would have cost less, and been less trouble, to drive 60 miles each way to the nearest expert fitter, or a few hundred miles each way to the nearest custom skate boot factory. I hope you don't make a similar mistake.
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Seriously, I have found no place locally that sells figure skates. There are a number that sell hockey equipment, but not figure skating stuff. That's why I'm looking now at online sources. The current skates were a mistake before I knew better.
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Seriously, I have found no place locally that sells figure skates. There are a number that sell hockey equipment, but not figure skating stuff. That's why I'm looking now at online sources. The current skates were a mistake before I knew better.
Okay - no harm, no foul.
Try a figure skating online retail site like the ones below. If you contact them directly before you buy, they can recommend a brand, model and size. (Note that size means length AND width.
https://www.kinziescloset.com
http://www.shoprainbo.com
https://www.northerniceanddance.com
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I did ask the local all instructors. There are a couple of hockey supply places but the only place they could poi t me at for figure skates is Play it again Sports where fi ding anything in my size that hasn't been beat to death was challenging g to say the least.
Did you ask the instructors where they buy their skates? Or do they all have ancient skates they bought when they lived elsewhere?
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Getting back to this after a bit. In case I've forgotten before, I want to thank everyone for their responses. My takeaway from the above is that at least a big part of my problem is bad skates that probably don't fit quite right.
I spoke to one of the instructors at a public skate this past Saturday--the one who has actually been teaching me and my daughter separate from the rest of the class (we're at a different stage than the others are). Unfortunately, he strictly does hockey skates himself and didn't know where to get figure skates. No class Easter Sunday so I couldn't ask the others.
I looked at Riedell's web site. They do mail order but I, frankly, don't believe the results I got from measuring my feet. I wear a size 11 to 11.5 shoe in 6E width. 8 1/2 according to their chart? Let's just say I'm doubtful. When I was using the rental skates, I couldn't get my feet into a 10 and a 12 left space around my foot so I went with 11 (and that's what I ordered with the "Robin" skates). So, I really need to actually try skates on to ensure proper fit.
According to Riedell's dealer locator the nearest dealer is in Fort Wayne, about a two hour drive.
Looks like I'm taking a road trip this weekend.
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Good luck with the skates! Don't trust rental or street shoe sizing wrt to boots. They're different beasts. But it is definitely better to get fitted by someone who knows what they're doing than to have a go measuring yourself (which is complicated to do in any case).
Enjoy your road trip!
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Call and make an appointment with the shop, so that the figure skate tech is there. With that long a trip, you don't want to be fitted by someone unqualified or turned away because the "only person who does FS fittings" is away.
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Call and make an appointment with the shop, so that the figure skate tech is there. With that long a trip, you don't want to be fitted by someone unqualified or turned away because the "only person who does FS fittings" is away.
OMG yes this ^^ Also tell them what your street shoe size is, your level and any other pertinant information (if they're interested) so they can have some stock available for you to try on (This is how a store in Paris handled my skate purchase 6 years ago).
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From the earlier link provided, the OP has black skates. Keep in mind that there are far fewer black boots made than white, and having enough inventory to try on while visiting might not be possible.
But one can hope and it's certainly worth the call.
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The store in Fort Wayne says they do not have any men's figure skates in stock (they're primarily a hockey supplier) but they can get foot measurements and order for me. Another store in Cincinnati suggests an appointment sometime before 11:00 PM on Saturday. A third venue in Louisville, KY suggested sending them an outline of my feet for sizing while they check current prices. All of them are more than two hours away.
I'm very strongly leaning toward the Cincinnati venue with the hope that I can walk out with new skates for Sunday's class rather than having to wait and either make another road trip or have them shipped to me.
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Who did you talk to in Louisville? Did you reach out to a rink or an individual? Iceland does hockey only; the skating club there has people who measure depending on the brand. They have to ship in anything they order because there’s no storefront. I’ve never used the store at the seasonal rink, so have no opinion on them.
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It was Alpine Ice Arena in Louisville that I contacted (listed dealer from the Riedell dealer locator). The Riedell listing didn't give a website so I searched and contacted via the contact email. They're the ones that came back suggesting I send them an outline of my feet.
I ended up calling Tom (in response to his email) at Northland Pro Shop in Cincinnati. Got an appointment for tomorrow morning at 10:00 for fitting. He'll have to order the skates and I'll either have to go back or, if I can find someplace local that can do the "heat molding" (a hockey place might be able to do it, he said, because "it's the same oven") he can have them shipped to me. So, at least for a week or two, I'll still be using my old skates but then I'll have better ones that are properly fitted.
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It sounds like Tom at the Northland Pro Shop offers the best option. It is what I expected for better quality men's skates - no shortcuts.
You will be amazed at the difference good skates will make.
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Local hockey supply can do the heat molding. So maybe I can have Northland Pro Shop have the skates drop shipped from the manufacturer rather than shipping first to them and then from them to me. That would get me on the new skates quickest.
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That sounds like a plan!
Being local to you, the local hockey shop will be easy to revisit for secondary tweaks, for example if the boots need punched out at the ankle bones or toe joints.
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Buying skates is never easy. Remember there are good brands besides Riedell (you may discover you don't have Riedell feet). Have fun in Cincinnati at the shop!!! Good luck, and keep us posted. Black skates or white, we've all been where you are. :BS:
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So, went and got measured this morning. 9.5 wide per Riedell's measuring gadget. We went ahead and ordered a pair of "Motion" boots with, at the recommendation of the dealer, the better of the two blade options. He also discounted the combo $25 "to compensate for the long drive". Oh, and he also took the measurement for Jackson skates in case Riedell is out of stock and it's going to be something like six weeks. He said that if they are in stock he'll probably get them by Thursday in which case I'll probably have them by Saturday (in time for next week's Sunday class. Yay!).
As it happened, my daughter, BTW, did get her skates from Play it Again Sports and has been very happy with them (once we got them sharpened at the rink; she didn't like PiAS's sharpening job). Turns out they are Jackson Classique and not beat to death by previous owners. Looking at Jackson's web page (now that I know to look for the brand--I really had no clue coming into this) it looks like we lucked into them both in fit and quality.
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Even though the winter skating season is over, let's hope that Riedell has the skates in stock for you. You can't go wrong with Jacksons either if things turn out that way.
Sounds like your daughter was fortunate to get the Classiques in the condition you describe.
Keep us posted!
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....it looks like we lucked into them both in fit and quality.
Always something to celebrate! This whole thing is a learning process. One, that sadly, has no end due to stock updates, and design changes from the various brands. So glad the trip to Cincinnati was fruitful.
A site to look at, just to edificate yourself is Kinzies Closet. I will never advocate for buying boots online, simply because fit is so fickle, BUT they have great resources on this site, and certainly blades and accessories can easily be bought online. I think they carry all the major brands available in the US (we have a different set here in Europe), so you can get an idea of at least the landscape, and what the important variables are.
Good luck on your journey, both on and off ice! And please, definitely do keep us posted.
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I spoke to one of the instructors at a public skate this past Saturday--the one who has actually been teaching me and my daughter separate from the rest of the class (we're at a different stage than the others are). Unfortunately, he strictly does hockey skates himself and didn't know where to get figure skates.
He might not be a very good instructor for figure skating. That could be totally unfair: I haven't seen him skate or teach, but there are moves in figure skating that are very hard to do in hockey skates - and if he has never used figure skates, he might have trouble telling you how to take advantage of the features of figure skates. E.g., even at a beginning level, you don't put your weight in the same places, and the raised heels, extended tail, and toepicks change a lot of things. Of course, I could be wrong about that instructor.
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Congrats - great news.
The Classiques were the best of that trio of Jackson skate models. I think of them as "MAC" - Mystique (softest), Artiste (midrange) and Classique (sturdy.) I rarely recommend the Mystique model, but the Jackson Artiste are good for little, light skaters. They had trouble breaking in the Classique skate because of the stiffness. Jackson discontinued the Classiques, which is unfortunate. It was an affordable option for Basic 4-Pre-Freeskate level skaters who weren't pocket-sized.
Did he use the Jackson gadget to measure your feet? I wear a full size larger in Riedells than Jacksons per each mfg's measuring device.
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Used the Riedell gadget for the Riedell size and the Jackson gadget for the Jackson size. Still waiting anxiously to hear that the skates have arrived.
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Excellent! Good luck.
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And the skates have arrived at the pro shop. Getting them out UPS ground to me today. Yay!
Of course, trying them on will be the ultimate check of fit but we'll.soon see.
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Now you get to experience another skating ritual - breaking in new boots! :(
I see that FigureSpins resurrected an older thread regarding new boot break-in. There are some tidbits in there that might help you.
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Skates should be arriving today or tomorrow. I should be able to get them heat molded Saturday either at the local Perani's (hockey place, but they can do the heat molding) or at the rink. Sharpening at the rink (recommended not to let a hockey place do it). This means Saturday's public skate should be the last time I need to rely on the current skate.
Edit: And they arrived today. Yay. A little tight in the toe-box but dealable with.
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Hope it all works!
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Was able to get to Peranis and have the skates heat molded and sharped so I was able to do the public skate Friday night. When I tried the skates on at first, they were very snug, which I understand was what I wanted.
When I tried them at the rink, my balance seemed to be gone. I was tottering along almost like my first day back on skates. When I tried to do a snowplow stop I couldn't do it to the tune of a couple of falls. It's like I forgot everything I'd learned in the last couple of months. Then, pain in my feet soon got too bad to continue. All in all, a very frustrating outing.
I really hope this is just break in and getting used to the new skates because I'd really hate to think I wasted just this side of $500 on skates I'm not going to be able to use.
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I could have predicted the pain - breaking in proper fitting skates is not easy, and often causes pain. I got bloody skin on my ankle bones when I was breaking in the best fitting pair of skates that I ever had. When I was breaking in the boots, I thought that the fitter had gone completely mad. They felt like someone had c-clamped some two-by-fours to my feet. After a month, they started breaking in and soon thereafter became almost a part of my foot. The break-in is something that we're not used to with comfy street shoes. Give it time.
If you have pain from a local pressure-point (commonly ankle bones or toe joints - the bits that protrude), you can have them "punched out" at your shop. They can locally stretch some of the boot material over the pressure point with a tool that looks like this... https://wissota.com/product/bootpunch/ (https://wissota.com/product/bootpunch/)
Oh, one more thing. Some skaters (wearing blade guards of course) lace them up and do standing and squatting exercises at home for small periods of time to accelerate the process.
The balance issue could be a number of things, including the rocker on the skate blade. If the old skates had a fairly flat profile front to back, then these will feel tipsy. They are newly sharpened too, which could easily make stops harder to do.
I do have one question - are all the screw holes on the blade's sole plate populated? Are some left empty? The answer to that question may lead to another suggestion.
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Did you look at the break in advice thread I bumped earlier this week?
I would definitely recommend not tying the hooks all the way up to the top. Leave the top pair undone and tie it off below that spot. Go around the lower hooks twice to use up the extra length of lace. That will let you bend your knees and balance easier.
Did the shop sharpen the blades yet?
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I haven't looked at that other thread yet. I will. I had the skates sharpened right after the heat molding.
Did a little better tonight. Lasted about twice as long before it became too uncomfortable to continue.
Class tomorrow and I'll talk to the instructor about my difficulties.
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Just to simplify your life, the thread about breaking-in skates that was resurrected by FigureSpins can be found here... http://skatingforums.com/index.php?topic=6368.0 (http://skatingforums.com/index.php?topic=6368.0)
Someone just posted to that thread, and mentioned Bunga pads for helping with pressure points. I heartily agree! I bought a kit that had two ankle sleeves plus two gel pads when I was breaking-in new skates. They really help. But they are expensive.
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When I tried them at the rink, my balance seemed to be gone. I was tottering along almost like my first day back on skates. When I tried to do a snowplow stop I couldn't do it to the tune of a couple of falls. It's like I forgot everything I'd learned in the last couple of months. Then, pain in my feet soon got too bad to continue. All in all, a very frustrating outing.
Forward/back Balance or side-to-side balance? E.g., do you feel like you need to work to prevent yourself from falling to the inside or to the outside? If so, which one, on which foot/feet? There is a very good chance that this can be fixed by items 2 or 3 below.
AFAIK, arch pain is usually caused by one of several issues:
1. At some point along the skate, the skate is too narrow. It is pinching part of your foot. That can hurt. In addition, pinching the foot from the sides forces the arch upwards, sometimes to the point of discomfort.
2. There is a mismatch between the shape at the bottom of the skate and the bottom of your foot. You want approximately equal pressure on all parts of the bottom of your feet. If some part isn't getting as much support as some other part, or feels like it is being pushed into an uncomfortable shape, remove the insole, trace it on a piece of foam or a bigger and thicker insole, cut that out, and cut down the insole in a 3D sense to get equal pressure everywhere, and put the insole back in. Or add tape underneath one part. Or trace it on a piece of foam, and cut it to shape, in a 3D sense. E.g., if you feel like you have less pressure under the arch than on the opposite side, you could add tape under the part of the insole that is underneath the arch. That said, people whose feet collapse asymmetrically under weight (so that, for example, your foot tilts to one side as you put weight on it) sometimes need slightly unequal pressure to counter that problem.
3. There is a side-to-side balance issue. You keep having to use your muscles to stay in balance. Balance is affected by the side-to-side positioning of the blade (sometimes called "offset"), and by the 3D mismatch problem I just mentioned. Most skate techs for adjust this by changing the offset, but I eventually decided I am better off adjusting it by changing the shape of the insole. In particular, if you adjust offset too much, it creates other problems with things like spins, and some boots can be damaged by off-center weight loading.
4. The heel is too high. You simply aren't flexible enough for that heel.
By the way, instead of changing the shape of the insole by hand, some people prefer to use a heat-mold-able orthotic. It costs more, but it is a bit faster, and you don't have to figure out what to do, especially if you pay a podiatrist, PT, or other qualified expert to do it. Me, I'd rather spend a few pennies on tape, or buy a cheap piece of foam (I bought a $7 camping pad, which is big enough to make many insoles - it eventually squishes down and needs to be replaced) and cut it down until it feels perfect, than to pay an medical practitioner to MAYBE do it right.
There is also another possibility with balance: maybe you just need to get used to the new skates and blades. However, that doesn't explain the pain.
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The balance issue I'm having is front to back. It looks like the blades on this skate have a more curved rocker (not sure what the proper term is for that), and was sharpened to a deeper hollow between the edges. Also, the bottom of the toe picks come down closer to the ice. The combination, I think is making the blade more sensitive to smaller mistakes meaning the learning curve has gotten steeper for me.
In class today the instructor had me doing just basic stuff, specifically to get used to the new skates. Just basically skating back and forth doing dips. The head instructor came over a couple of times to give me some tips. One of the things he said was that they have the new skaters skate "upright" more (legs straight) because it's easier to feel where they are on the skate that way, but that a little flex in the knee is more stable.
As far as the pain in the arches is concerned, I have problems with my arches to start with. I wear custom orthotics from my podiatrist in my regular shoes or I end up pretty quickly having the same pain issues I'm having in the skates. I have a pair in the skates but it's entirely possible they aren't adequate for use in the skates which have to fit a lot more tightly than my regular shoes. The instructor may have been joking when he suggested taking the skates with me to my next appointment with the podiatrist but I was actually already thinking along those lines.
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I suppose I should properly close this out.
Success!
The main problem ongoing here has been that my feet have been pure misery. Bad arches and rather thick feet and ankles contributed to the problem. Well, trying the skates at home (plastic guards to protect floor and blades from each other of course) I could concentrate on what's going on. I found that with one pair of my orthotics in place there was a pressure point right behind the balls of my feet where the pain was concentrated. Ah Hah! Said I. The shape of the boot and the orthotic conspired to cause the end of the orthotic dig into my foot there. So I took out the orthotic and just used a gel insole, carefully trimmed to match the insole that came with the boot. With that my whole foot hurt with most of the pain running along the inside edge of the arch.
This led me to sit down and think. Remember what I just said about thick feet and ankles? The laces that came with the skates (108") weren't really long enough, even the longer laces (120") I'd bought at the rink pro shop weren't. I had to crank them down really tight through the instep to have enough lace to get even the first three of the speed laces (hooks) which I needed for ankle support.
So I went to the store and got two pair of 72" laces. I tied two laces together (twice) giving me 140" laces. And ta dah! I was able to keep them just snug over my instep and get up all four pairs of speed laces. I still got some foot pain, bad arches aren't magically going away, but it was manageable .
Tried it out on the ice tonight. So much better. Did eight laps--a personal best--with only a couple of short breaks to relieve foot pain. At the end it was fatigue, catching toe picks on the ice and the like, which told me it was time to stop.
Skating is still more chore than pleasure (having to work too hard at it) but I can see myself getting there now. Practice and training and I should be able to flip that around.
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Wow! Awesome on ya for figuring that out!
+GOE
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This led me to sit down and think. Remember what I just said about thick feet and ankles? The laces that came with the skates (108") weren't really long enough, even the longer laces (120") I'd bought at the rink pro shop weren't. I had to crank them down really tight through the instep to have enough lace to get even the first three of the speed laces (hooks) which I needed for ankle support.
So I went to the store and got two pair of 72" laces. I tied two laces together (twice) giving me 140" laces. And ta dah! I was able to keep them just snug over my instep and get up all four pairs of speed laces. I still got some foot pain, bad arches aren't magically going away, but it was manageable .
Here are two other lacing options you can consider:
(1) Instead of tying two shorter laces together into one long lace (which can get awkward to lace up because of the intermediate knot), just use the two short laces separately (you may need lengths different from the 72", however). You mentioned you have the Riedell Motion boots. Use one lace through all the regular eyelets (excluding the ankle notch eyelets), and tie a first bow. Then use a second lace starting with the ankle notch eyelets and continuing with the speed hooks, and tie a second bow. This also allows you to more readily vary the lace tension independently between the lower and upper sections of the boot. A lot easier to manage two shorter laces than one super long lace, too. This won't work on all boots, but for you, it should be fine. I used to use two separate laces per boot on my old Riedell Royals (different eyelet/hook pattern from the Motion's).
(2) Jackson has 146" laces. Jackson laces are slightly wider than Riedell laces, but they'll work fine.
Good luck!
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I'm happy to hear that you are making progress, and that you have discovered the cause of your discomfort.
You sound like someone not afraid to experiment. I'm confident that you will continue to explore further improvements.
I predict that you and your skates will become much better friends as time goes on.