Is it common for skating coaches to yell at their competitive students?

[Teresa]

Thank you kssk8fan.

Schmeck,

Personally I like descriptive statements about what I'm doing wrong.  "Your looking down."

I like descriptive statements to correct a skill. "Keep your free hip open."

"Your skating like a baby.", doesn't tell me what's wrong or how to fix it.

A coach can and should expect effort. A coach is a teacher and their job is to help their student be their best by information. If a coach does their job the skater knows best how to do theirs.

I believe to be the "best" you need to love the sport, feel good about yourself,  know how to push yourself and learn from your mistakes. I just don't think feeling like crap fits into the equation. I can't believe this feeling breeds long term growth.

Just saying,

Teresa   

[fsk8r]

Personally I like descriptive statements about what I'm doing wrong.  "Your looking down."

I like descriptive statements to correct a skill. "Keep your free hip open."

"Your skating like a baby.", doesn't tell me what's wrong or how to fix it.

I agree the comments should be descriptive on how to correct a skill, but between a coach and a skater a statement like "you're skating like a baby" might actually have that affect. My coach oftens tells me I'm walking, which is her way of saying "push." To someone else it might sound like she's just insulting me, but it actually tells me what I'm doing wrong and what I need to do to correct it.
It's sometimes difficult to judge coaches' comments unless you know the full context and skating relationship.

[FigureSpins]

Yes, skaters and coaches have cues that they use with each other.  I'm loud and I'm proud, but I'm not abusive.  I call out "don't pose!" to one skater whenever there are back crossovers on a Moves pattern.  She tends to pause in a backward two-foot glide before every back crossover which looks weak and honestly, does make her c-cut weak because she doesn't turn the ankle to start the first push. 

"You are skating like one of the babies, stand up straight, stroke harder..." in a yelling voice."
That first phrase belittles the skater publicly for everyone who hears the cue and it's not needed.  All the coach had to say was "straighten up, stroke harder" but they chose an belittling sound bite to play before so as to embarrass the skater.  It's a sign of desperation on the part of the coach because s/he can't verbalize the real issue and come up with a decent cue.

Again, I think that kids who are competitive, or come from abusive homes, will be able to tolerate the verbal abuse that these coaches spew forth.

I wonder how many bystander skaters stay away from competitive skating because they don't want to be treated that way?
It creates a poor environment for the rink.  A good private lecture or a penalty would be better for everyone in the long run.

While some people excuse it with a "it's a competitive sport," that's really not a valid reason to scream in anger or belittle the skaters publicly.  It shouldn't be tolerated and it demonstrates poor sportsmanship and self-control. 

[jumpingbeansmom]

harder..." in a yelling voice."[/b]
That first phrase belittles the skater publicly for everyone who hears the cue and it's not needed.  All the coach had to say was "straighten up, stroke harder" but they chose an belittling sound bite to play before so as to embarrass the skater.  It's a sign of desperation on the part of the coach because s/he can't verbalize the real issue and come up with a decent cue.

Again, I think that kids who are competitive, or come from abusive homes, will be able to tolerate the verbal abuse that these coaches spew forth.

I wonder how many bystander skaters stay away from competitive skating because they don't want to be treated that way?
It creates a poor environment for the rink.  A good private lecture or a penalty would be better for everyone in the long run.

While some people excuse it with a "it's a competitive sport," that's really not a valid reason to scream in anger or belittle the skaters publicly.  It shouldn't be tolerated and it demonstrates poor sportsmanship and self-control. 

This is what I am wondering.  Some of the most talented, hardworking girls in our area seem almost beaten down by these tactics.  They are persevering because they must love the skating but I wonder if they wouldn't be even BETTER with a different approach. 

I know that my girl (10) is a people pleaser type...she LOVES her coaches like family (not surprising I guess the amount of time they spend together), and she doesn't like to dissappoint people who are important to her, so if she is treated harshly, she ends up sort of withdrawing rather than stepping up.   

One of the coaches was berating a little girl over her axel yesterday (it is the coming and going stage), and the girl was crying, and she actually seemed MORE afraid to try it than before the berating...I think THAT is how my dd would react-- perform worse because of fear of the ramifications of a mistake.

[FigureSpins]

A parent once told me that the "fear of loud voices" was a handicap to her child that they were trying to overcome, so they put her in group lessons to desensitize her.  That's a different issue entirely, we're talking about insults, belittling, and so on.

I'm not a particularly touchy-feeling person and I don't care if someone's loud, but I object to ranting, insulting and belittling anyone.  Again, it creates a hostile environment and that shouldn't be tolerated or allowed. 

As someone else said, if they're so wonderful as coaches, why are they ranting?  Sounds like they're not communicating well enough.  Perhaps communications should be part of the CER compliance courses for top-level coaches. 

[jumpingbeansmom]

A parent once told me that the "fear of loud voices" was a handicap to her child that they were trying to overcome, so they put her in group lessons to densitize her.  That's a different issue entirely, we're talking about insults, belittling, and so on.

I'm not a particularly touchy-feeling person and I don't care if someone's loud, but I object to ranting, insulting and belittling anyone.  Again, it creates a hostile environment and that shouldn't be tolerated or allowed. 

As someone else said, if they're so wonderful as coaches, why are they ranting?  Sounds like they're not communicating well enough.  Perhaps communications should be part of the CER compliance courses for top-level coaches. 

English as second language?  Culture?

[FigureSpins]

I'm talking about positive coaching communications. 

If they need ESL, they should pursue it anyway.  A director once told one of her coaches point-blank, that they had to start speaking english regularly instead of relying on others to translate. 

[jumpingbeansmom]

I'm talking about positive coaching communications. 

If they need ESL, they should pursue it anyway.  A director once told one of her coaches point-blank, that they had to start speaking english regularly instead of relying on others to translate. 

What I mean is sometimes even though these coaches speak English, that the subtelties of communication is lost in translation.   

[FigureSpins]

I've already addressed that: poor behavior and bullying by coaches isn't limited to people from other countries.  I know perfectly nice people from the Ukraine and Russia who are wonderful coaches and don't berate their students publicly.  I know US- and UK-born coaches who curse their heads off at their students. 

Your prejudice against foreign-born coaches isn't mine, maybe because I've coached at, or skated at, many rinks so I have a broader view.  Creating a rink atmosphere of fear and intimidation isn't acceptable to my way of thinking.  Communications are critical.

[jumpingbeansmom]

I've already addressed that: poor behavior and bullying by coaches isn't limited to people from other countries.  I know perfectly nice people from the Ukraine and Russia who are wonderful coaches and don't berate their students publicly.  I know US- and UK-born coaches who curse their heads off at their students. 

Your prejudice against foreign-born coaches isn't mine, maybe because I've coached at, or skated at, many rinks so I have a broader view.  Creating a rink atmosphere of fear and intimidation isn't acceptable to my way of thinking.  Communications are critical.

I don't mean to convey a predjudice against foreign born coaches, I am simply conveying the pattern I see locally and I wonder if it is somewhat culturally driven (the coaching style).   You are saying you don't think that is necessarily so....correct?   

My last post was meant to not so much talk about yelling and berating (and I realize I wasn't clear), but that also sometimes the words don't come out as tactfully when you are speaking a language that is not your first.-- separate issue really

[FigureSpins]

Do you know that ESL courses also teach people about the colloquialisms that exist / don't exist in english?  I can't understand why immigrants don't seek out that assistance to improve their language and communications skills.  If you think that's the issue, help them instead of gossiping or excusing them.

You have three choices:

1) write it off as ignorance of english;
2) mention it to the skating director or the coaches themselves and hope they change; or
3) don't take lessons from that coach or at that rink if it's pervasive.

If no one ever challenges them on what they say, or corrects them, people with language barriers will continue to make the same mistakes over and over. Plus, they think it's acceptable because "no one said anything."

It's your choice: either overlook it or have it addressed.  Rather than whispering in the corner, speak up if it bugs you!

Many immigrants want coaches who can speak their native language, so they will choose them over an english-speaking coach.  If they're accustomed to be spoken to in an (US) abusive way, they'll hire that coach regardless of what they say.


If you're so certain that a coach is so superior with these flaws intact, do what you want.  I would be concerned about what the kids are learning about motivation and communications from someone who's obviously challenged.  It's your money and your family.

[kssk8fan]

Emotion is universal.  Happiness, sadness, disappointment, fear, excitement, etc..... isn't relegated to specific cultures. 

[kssk8fan]

one more thing......Is winning a competition or acquiring a skating skill worth risking your child's value, and self-worth?   Can you sit quietly on the sidelines and watch your child being bullied into submissiveness by another adult?  If you think that is what it takes to become a top level skater, is it worth it?? 

Fast forward 10 years from now and maybe that coach did take your skater to the olympics, battered, bruised, and "beaten down" and she/he won gold.  Was it worth it?  If it was, for whom was it worth it?  You or your skater or your coach?  Once you leave that competition, what's left.  What type of child will you have if the authority figures in his/her life emotionally abused him/her along the way?  What type of person will she be?  What type of parent will she be? 

I'd have a serious conversation with myself if I subscribed to the thought that the only way to produce a champion is through emotional abuse!

[Teresa]

I agree with your statement 100%.

[jumpingbeansmom]

Do you know that ESL courses also teach people about the colloquialisms that exist / don't exist in english?  I can't understand why immigrants don't seek out that assistance to improve their language and communications skills.  If you think that's the issue, help them instead of gossiping or excusing them.

You have three choices:

1) write it off as ignorance of english;
2) mention it to the skating director or the coaches themselves and hope they change; or
3) don't take lessons from that coach or at that rink if it's pervasive.

If no one ever challenges them on what they say, or corrects them, people with language barriers will continue to make the same mistakes over and over. Plus, they think it's acceptable because "no one said anything."

It's your choice: either overlook it or have it addressed.  Rather than whispering in the corner, speak up if it bugs you!

Many immigrants want coaches who can speak their native language, so they will choose them over an english-speaking coach.  If they're accustomed to be spoken to in an (US) abusive way, they'll hire that coach regardless of what they say.


If you're so certain that a coach is so superior with these flaws intact, do what you want.  I would be concerned about what the kids are learning about motivation and communications from someone who's obviously challenged.  It's your money and your family.

It isn't my kids coach and I am not whispering in a corner....I am discussing an issue with others in the skating community on a forum.   It isn't really my place to address it in this instance.

[jumpingbeansmom]

one more thing......Is winning a competition or acquiring a skating skill worth risking your child's value, and self-worth?   Can you sit quietly on the sidelines and watch your child being bullied into submissiveness by another adult?  If you think that is what it takes to become a top level skater, is it worth it?? 

Fast forward 10 years from now and maybe that coach did take your skater to the olympics, battered, bruised, and "beaten down" and she/he won gold.  Was it worth it?  If it was, for whom was it worth it?  You or your skater or your coach?  Once you leave that competition, what's left.  What type of child will you have if the authority figures in his/her life emotionally abused him/her along the way?  What type of person will she be?  What type of parent will she be? 

I'd have a serious conversation with myself if I subscribed to the thought that the only way to produce a champion is through emotional abuse!

I guess I was hoping people would assure me it isn't and either/or-- that there ARE top level coaches out there than don't use fear and intimidation to get more out of their students

[Sk8tmum]

Frankly, I'll take my kid's screaming, ranting, jumping up and down coach - who is equally passionate with the hugs, and the yelled "YES!" when it goes well  - but who I have other parents look askance at   over the coaches who are quiet, refined, apparently civil, nice people - and then quietly and without others "overhearing" rip the kid to shreds with their feedback, often wearing a nice smile - and who don't jump up and down with passion and glee when the kid does do it right. The ones who are masters of the snarky putdown with a pleasant smile, or who withhold warmth and caring or positive feedback as a way to manipulate the skater. Fear and intimidation can be silent as much as it can be loud and noisy.  Plus, after skaters have worked long enough with the coach - they get the body language -  that can make a silent presence as upsetting and terrifying as a loud noisy one yelling across the rink.

I've been around top level coaches for long enough to have seen every variant of abusive relationships; and it's not just at the top level, it also happens at the low level and the test track.  

You can't judge a relationship from the outside. That's why you have to research a coach by doing more than just watching the coach before you hire on with them.

BTW: my yelling, ranting, passionate coach? A small town lady whose family would have emigrated from England about ... hmm .. 6 generations ago.  And is one of those "top level" competitive coaches.

[Isk8NYC]

I guess I was hoping people would assure me it isn't and either/or-- that there ARE top level coaches out there than don't use fear and intimidation to get more out of their students

But many people said just that, so I'm not sure why you're still pressing the issue.

As an aside, I met a charming, polite and soft-spoken coach today who was originally from the Ukraine.  When I said I recognized the accent, which I like, he said that he was trying to get rid of it.  I laughed.  I have such a thick NYC accent, lol.

[Schmeck]

It's the parent's job to make sure the child has enough confidence and self-worth not to be put down by anyone else, be it the school bully, a coach, a teacher, etc.  My kids have been in competitive situations since they were 6 or so years old, and neither took it personally when the coach got emotional.  They have been known to laugh at the person getting upset, actually, which doesn't always go over too well either.  My younger daughter tells me she likes it when her dance instructor yells at her, it means she's trying to push her to become a better dancer, and that she sees potential there for improvement.  I must point out that both of my daughters have an extremely high level of self confidence.

About the "skating like a baby"  - doesn't that put an image in your head about how the skater was skating? Comparing her to the beginner skaters?  She would know how she looked, so much more than a list of 'get your back up, extend your free leg, do this, don't do that', as long as she knew the difference between a beginner and a more experienced skater.  When I skated, I had that image in my head, of the beginner adults, and our awkward, stiff posture.  I'd try to channel an image of Michelle Kwan, to get that glide, the arch in the back, the shoulder and arm position that was so much more pleasant.  Whenever my coach would try to correct me with a list of dos and don'ts, I'd forget what I was even working on.

[Skittl1321]

About the "skating like a baby"  - doesn't that put an image in your head about how the skater was skating? Comparing her to the beginner skaters? 

But even if the skater now knows she looks like a beginner and can picture what "skating like a baby" looks like, she still doesn't know how to fix it.  It's just belittling.  An occasional comment,  I think isn't a big deal, but I don't think anyone can last for long in a culture of extreme negativity.

I know yesterday after my sit spin my coach said "hold on, let me think where to start" and I said "I look like an adult trying to do a sit spin?" and he said, "No, it just looks like a bad sit spin.  Not an adult sit spin. D.'s an adult too- and he has a fantastic sit spin."  Then he gave me ONE thing that might make it better and had me try it.  After that try, I got two other things to fix. So I don't get the laundry list all at once, but if my coach agreed with my negative-nelly views of "no point in trying, adults can't do this well anyway" I don't know how long I would last with him, even though I'm pretty negative about my own skating.

[Schmeck]

But even if the skater now knows she looks like a beginner and can picture what "skating like a baby" looks like, she still doesn't know how to fix it. 

I guess different people see things differently, because I can picture in my head exactly what needs to be fixed by an image, but can never get things fixed by a coach telling me to do this or that.  She always had to show me.  I learned sign language the same way - I have to see someone do it, I can't follow the descriptions in a textbook at all.  So, if a coach told me I was skating like a baby, I'd realize I was being sloppy and tentative, and needed to work on my posture, speed, and extension.   

[Query]

Pair a skating student who makes lots of noise during lessons with an equally noisy coach!

 

[isakswings]

It's the parent's job to make sure the child has enough confidence and self-worth not to be put down by anyone else, be it the school bully, a coach, a teacher, etc.  My kids have been in competitive situations since they were 6 or so years old, and neither took it personally when the coach got emotional.  They have been known to laugh at the person getting upset, actually, which doesn't always go over too well either.  My younger daughter tells me she likes it when her dance instructor yells at her, it means she's trying to push her to become a better dancer, and that she sees potential there for improvement.  I must point out that both of my daughters have an extremely high level of self confidence.

Yes, parents should do all they can to ensure their child has confidence and self worth, but to be honest, all kids are different. You are lucky that you have confident daughters. I have a very confident 15 y/o son, yet my daughter is not anywhere near as confident. They are both raised in the same environment... my son just has a different personality then my daughter does. My daughter is more of an introvert where as my son is an extrovert. My daughter internalizes and worries about things, much more then my older son does. I don't think  how a child reacts to being "bullied" is always about how they are raised. I've seen very confident kids knocked down by someone else and their abusive tactics. It really is so individual.

Edited to add: I also think it is a parents responsibility to make sure their child isin an environment they can adequately learn in. My daughter would not do well with a coach who is extra loud or harsh. My daughter;s coach isn't a church mouse and pushes her, but it is a rare day to hear her put her down.  I perfer that approach to yelling at my kid.

[Schmeck]

Edited to add: I also think it is a parents responsibility to make sure their child isin an environment they can adequately learn in.

That can do more harm than good - we will not be there for our children every second of their lives.  How will they ever learn to function in an environment that is not tailor-made to their needs, if we as parents always make sure they are in an adequate environment?  I believe kids need to learn to adapt to every environment they can possibly experience, not the other way around.  My kids know how to respond to all kinds of situations, be it a person yelling in their faces, a drunk stumbling up to them in the subway, how to find a safe place if they are lost, etc.  One of their prized posessions is the worst-case scenario series, which is always a really fun read.

I've tried my hardest to keep my kids from experiencing a sheltered life, because I've seen those kids who have mommies and daddies that do everything for them, and keep everything running in a bubble, and they are the most helpless young adults I've ever met. 

So, if the coach is a screamer, or says things that a parent believes are a put-down, there are three things that could be done - 1) the skater could speak up for herself 2) the parent could speak up for the skater 3) they could leave that coach.  I go for option 1.

[isakswings]

Yes, kids should try and stand up  for themselves and I DO encourage my children to do that. My older son does this very well. My daughter struggles with this. I do not coddle my daughter but I do watch out for her interests. I tell her to stand up for herself and she tries, but being assertive does not come easy for her. Unless she is home! LOL! She's coming around, but it isn't an easy thing for her.