Newbie Skating Parent

[threenorns]

i've been cruising through and i might not be in the right forum - this seems to be for figure skaters?   

about me:  i'm not a good skater and frankly, i hate it.  i'm terrified the entire time i'm on the ice (a fractured skull will do that).  i know nothing about skating except what i've been trying to learn from youtube videos (and i'm absolutely unable to replicate the videos into body knowledge for myself).

but my 6yr old daughter is a *dream*.  she's so good and she picks stuff up effortlessly - literally, she will see or hear something and just start doing it.  she has been skating for 4 months, twice a week for 1hr 50min a time (except when public skate is cancelled, which is 2 - 3 times a month).  she skates forward.  she does hockey stops.  she twirls (she likes to make circles in the ice).  she skates on one foot - straight forward, makes curves and loops, and hockey stops.  yesterday, she started skating backward (still doesn't like it much because it's too hard to see backward, what with her helmet and her snowsuit).  this is all on hockey skates - she doesn't want figure skates and doesn't want to join the skating club even though it would get her another 4hrs a week of ice time.

i put my skates and helmet on and get out there with her but, while i don't want to be one of those crazy sports parents i see all the time yelling from the boards, i want her to get the most out of her skating.

to that end, i have listed my concerns and queries and i hope someone can help:

Mod note: Moved topic to proper forum and changed "hated" subject title.

[threenorns]

[seriously!??  you put a character limit of 3000 and don't provide a counter??]

first off, i suspect what she's wearing is not the best idea:  she's a big kid, in every aspect - wears size 8-10 clothing for length and takes women's size socks; her hockey skates are a boy's size 13.  her helmet is an adult size small snowboarding helmet - it's pretty thick and it feels significantly heavier than my hockey helmet.  there's also not a lot of venting, so her hair is always soaked and her scalp itchy after skating.  she wears her snowsuit on the ice, too, and i'm starting to get worried that she's going to hook her snowpants bec it's going to happen.  i realized yesterday that she is the only one at her skill level still wearing a snow suit so on wednesday, i'll send her out wearing leggings and layers of sweaters and a thin jacket like the other kids but should i replace her helmet?

is there a specific developmental progression she should be making?  if she learns stuff "out of order", would that be a problem?

she is wearing hockey skates and doesn't want figure skates.  she has big ol' flipper feet like me and those cutesie little white dominion skates are horrible - my feet used to end up white with blue toes when i was a kid (the skates i have now are *wonderful* - so wide and roomy!) which is how she ended up with hockey skates.  now, if, later on down the road, she wants to get into figure skating, will her skills translate over?  i've had skate moms at the rink tell me she'll have to start all over from square one and it'll be horrible  because she'll have to unlearn everything if she gets onto figure skates but ... seriously?  do they even make figure skates for big feet?

sorry about all the basement-level noobie-Qs but she's gifted and i don't want to mess this up.

[Skittl1321]

do they even make figure skates for big feet?

Yes...  Grown men figure skate.  If she has truly 'big feet' (as a 6 year old, she can't possibly be larger than a Women's size 10, which is what most skates go to) she might have trouble finding white skates, but she could always get men's skates (generally black)- they usually go to Men's size 12.

there a specific developmental progression she should be making?  if she learns stuff "out of order", would that be a problem?

If she wants to be a figure skater, yes, there can be some problem because it is very difficult for kids to unlearn bad habits they taught themselves.  Basics like edges, crossovers, turns should be taught before jumps and spins.  Doing the stuff out of order is fine for someone just skating for fun, which if she is figure skating in hockey skates, it seems like she is doing.

Google "USFSA Basic Eights" for a good progression of the order of skills.

If she wants to be a 'real' figure skater- work with a coach, even if just in group lessons. It is extremely frustrating for a kid who thinks they are great to be told they have to start back from the beginning.  To some extent skills learned in hockey skates will translate- balance, speed, etc.  But if the goal is competitive figure skating, I wouldn't leave her in hockey skates for more than a year or so.

but should i replace her helmet?

The helmet actually sounds like a good one.  Most kids in our program wear bicycle helmets which are not made for backwards falls- don't get one of those!  But if you can afford it, a hockey helmet is a great idea.  As for the snowpants- yep, hooking your blade on it is a real possibility with crossovers and spins, but again, if she is in hockey skates, less likely- because there is not really a tail of the blade.  At her age and what it sounds like her level, she is probably fine in it if she doesn't like the leggings.

[threenorns]

thank you for your reply - i've seen kids wearing those bike helmets with the loooooong tail at the back and all i can think "sweet jesus lord, that's gonna be bad".  call me crazy but i think hockey helmets are close-fitted for a reason.  i had a bad fall on a bike without a helmet - hit a sidewalk curb at top speed (about 20kph) landed on my face and left a trail of blood all up the driveway - and the EMS guy said had i been wearing a bike helmet, with its jutting out at the front,  at the angle of impact i landed on there was a good chance of serious injury to my neck, if it wasn't broken outright. 

yes, i'm a serious clutz.

the only thing i was wondering about with the helmet is i notice her head bobbles about a lot and i was thinking maybe it's the weight.  would that be more a matter of control, once she fine-tunes things?

skate-wise, my skates are figure skates (they filed off the bottom two picks after seeing what happened when i tried them on the ice - i didn't even know you could do that) and very roomy and comfie with padding and lining and whatnot.  i'm only a size 6W but i often have to go 7 or even 8 in shoes just to get my feet in them.  the tops of her toes already come to the bottoms of mine.  my oldest daughter (27yrs old)  has bird feet:  size 7 extra-narrow but my middle daughter (24) is a size 9W - she often can't even fit size 10 shoes because she can't get them in past the base of her toes.  i used to joke that we'll go shoe-shopping and i'll have the shoes, she can have the boxes.  saari fits a size 1 exactly now so next winter she'll likely be a 2, if not a 3, and i have this awful feeling she'll have bigger feet than caiti's.

[threenorns]

she seems to understand edges already - she can make left and right curves and twirls without moving her legs at all and she can do them on one foot.   i'll look up videos and try to get educated on edges so i can have a better idea what i'm supposed to look for.

crossovers - that's one that's been mentioned several times (a guy who was clearly a professional of some kind - had that freaky kind of joint action where his knees and hips seemed to be made of rubber bands and he went over the ice like a bird flying over snow, doing all kinds of flips and spins that almost looked like karate - said she needed to get those down as soon as possible).  i've taught her to do the travelling grapevine but it's not translating to the ice - i think it's the snowpants maybe limiting her mobility?

about coaching, that's where the problem is:  she is autistic so if she feels self-conscious or shy, she completely shuts down.  out on the ice, when there's more than 2 or 3 ppl, she just goes around and around and that's about it.  once the ice is cleared (a slow day, for example) that's when she pulls out all the stops.  the only time i've seen her perfectly comfortable was when we were skating at gage park in brampton and there was a couple of young guys coaching others (4 or 5 of them) in hockey.   she latched onto one of the coaches like a little duckling and he had a lot of fun teaching her hockey stops and speed drills.

[Skittl1321]

about coaching, that's where the problem is:

Here's the thing- if the only reason she is skating is to have fun- then none of the 'rules' of figure skating matter.  Let her skate and have fun.  If she doesn't like people watching her, she probably doesn't have a future in -performance- figure skating, and that is perfectly okay.  90% of the kids I teach in learn to skate (I only teach toddlers) will never do a program in competition or show- they just want to learn to skate so they can be competent at public sessions, and your daughter is already there, so that's fine.  However, if competitions are in her future- you shouldn't be teaching her how to skate unless you know what you are doing, someone who understands figure skating is the one who should be doing it.  It may just take some trial and error to find the right coach.  But again, if she wants to be a 'real' figure skater, you are doing a disservice teaching her when you don't know how to skate yourself.  Skating 'for fun' is an entirely different matter, and perfectly acceptable.

The thing with edges is to be able to control them and hold them- forward and backward, inside and outside, on both feet.  Strong edges allow you to turn properly, set up jumps and spins correctly, and do all the in between moves.

(BTW- I've found grapevines help for agility and warm up, but they aren't really something that needs to be translated onto the ice.)

[hopskipjump]

If she wants to learn hockey she should be in hockey skates.  If she wants to figure skate she needs figure skates.  There are skate professionals who can help her get the most comfortable skate for her feet.  Boots can be stretched, punched etc so she can be comfortable and safe. 

If she wears boot covers, she can wear regular fleece pants like from The Children's Place.  Regular leggings are mostly cotton and soak up water, fleece doesn't hold water like that.  Since she is moving so much, a light jacket or fleece pullover should be enough.

I don't know about helmets, but if she does want hockey, I'd put her in a hockey helmet.  If she wants figure skating I'd look for one that is light and doesn't impede vision.

Parents shouldn't coach their kids.  There are rare exceptions, but she is better off forming a relationship with a coach than learning from what dad learned on youtube. 

[threenorns]

i (personally) don't think competitions are what she's about BUT i could be wrong.    often she does a complete 180 and surprises me.  if anything, i think she's more attracted to hockey:  she won't stick around to watch when the figure skaters come out but i can't get her out of the arena if the hockey players are out.

with the grapevines, i just wanted her to get the idea of the movement, of being able to actually move one leg over the other.  it's what the guy suggested - he said just show her how to do grapevines and then let her out on the ice.  but i think from watching yesterday what's happening is when she tries to crossover going around a bend, her snowsuit is bunching up between her legs and she's autocorrecting to avoid that.

the main reason i want her to learn the proper way of skating is i have a friend who used to skate *a lot* when she was a girl - just for fun.  she has permanent damage to her knees and ankles preventing her from wearing high heels and will likely result in osteoarthritis down the road.  i really do not want this to happen to my daughter but until i can find the person she can "click" with, even if it's a private tutor for one-on-one instead of her having to face a whole class of kids, i'm all she's got.

[Skittl1321]

if anything, i think she's more attracted to hockey:

Why not put her in hockey lessons then?  Even if she is not ready to join a team, a coach can work with her on hockey skating skills. There are many figure skating coaches who will teach "power skating" if you can't find a hockey coach.   

Good hockey skills will translate better to figure skating down the road than poor general skating skills will translate to either hockey or figure skating later.



You need to really start searching for that person she can 'click' with.  You don't know the proper way of skating, and you can't learn it from youtube or a forum, so if you want her to learn the proper way of skating, you need a coach.  It is even possible that you can accompany her to her group lessons if you feel her autism issues will effect her ability to particpate fully in the class- just talk to the skating director.  At this level, group lessons are the most affordable way to get lessons. Privates add up quickly.

[threenorns]

right now, as far as i can tell, she's too young for the hockey camp (starts at age 7).

i have a feeling that when we do find the right coach, that will determine if it's to be hockey or figure-skating.


this is a video from two weeks ago (with the hockey coach) - it's very dark, but it was taken at night (she usually skates anywhere from 3 to 5 hours at a stretch if she can get it; you can hear the coach saying "do the hockey stop!" and saying that she's phenomenal)

[retired]

Skittl wrote:

90% of the kids I teach in learn to skate (I only teach toddlers) will never do a program in competition or show- they just want to learn to skate so they can be competent at public sessions,

This is the core of what I teach as well.  Most kids just want to have fun on the ice.   I'm so into that.

For clothing, she should wear a windsuit over a pair of yoga-ish pants, or stretch fleece.  The windsuit is for waterproofing.   Good mitts and definitely a hockey helmet. 

You could take the OSO (Ontario Special Olympics) route, there is an entire competition stream and Skate Canada can help you find a club with OSO certified instructors.  It is more 1:1 or very small group instruction and there is funding for it.  Some of th programs require an assistant or parent on the ice with the child but those are more for outburst issue than skating support.

[learning_as_i_go]

I noticed your video said Brampton - so I did a quick search for CanSkate in your area.  This would be ideal - our CanSkate classes have autistic children in them so I wouldn't let that put you off.  CanSkate would be great intro to skating and can lead into figure skating/hockey/ringette.

Here is the link:
http://skatescbc.ca/programs/canskate

If you do enroll her in CanSkate you will need to get her a hockey helmet though (insurance reasons)

[threenorns]

that was very kind of you - but we live in minden.  we were skating in brampton bec i was doing some renovation at my sister's house (hardwood flooring repair, fixing the whacking big hole in the lathe-and-plaster wall left when i ripped out the fireplace, stopping the leak in the downstairs shower, and replacing the bathroom sink J-bend after it came off in my hand when i was trying to unscrew the collar to pull out whatever was clogging up the pipe).  every day we were down there, we were either skating in nathan phillips square (downtown toronto) or gage park in brampton, and except for one occasion, never less than 2-1/2hrs (nathan phillips square was 5hrs the first time, 4hrs the second time because it got insanely crowded).

this was done today - no snowsuit, which i think has helped



about her helmet - i actually left it on her bec it's a snowboarding helmet approved for non-motorized winter sports and it weighs a little over half as much as my hockey helmet (probably bec it  cost over twice as much!).  this isn't the exact same one bec hers is no longer in production but except for the fancy design on my daughter's, it's identical:
http://www.burton.com/red-protection-womens-pure-helmet/278587,default,pd.html?start=1&cgid=womens-red-protection-helmets

i did call canskate but they're not interested - they're all about their end-of-year shindig.  i said flat out, i'll pay for membership and everything and you don't have to do anything with her at this point, just let her skate at the other end of the rink but i guess it's no go.  tbh, i'm not too arsed on the local club - i've had other parents tell me they paid for their kids to learn how to skate but it seemed as soon as it was time for the end of year show, their kids were left to draw on the ice with markers while everybody was at the other end of the rink working on the girls who were to be in the skating show.  the club in the next town over, they have dedicated coaches - one that works with the littles, one that works with the next level up, and so on, not just two coaches trying to take care of everybody.

[retired]

Being the sole coach most of the time,  just continue to take her skating when you can. Skating lessons are just that, lessons, and kids reinforce that by free skating which most skaters don't do.  I'd ask her to skate backwards and she what she does with it, and also asking her to turn from front to back.   I'd also put a hockey stick in her handfor curiousity sake and see if she has puck sense  I produce many more hockey players than figure skaters.

[threenorns]

i was thinking about that - i looked it up and they do sell pink hockey sticks (well, black with pink, anyway) at canadian tire so i'll give that a go.  the only thing she hates is when the players hit the glass with the puck - it's LOUD! - but i told her it's nowhere near as loud from the other side.

i might have found, if not a coach, at least a skating mentor:  he plays hockey in the 65 and over league but *wow* can he *move* on the ice!  he does all kinds of tricks and stunts ranging from just "wow" to laughing your head off (that's the one where he goes the length of the ice looking like he's about to fall on his head any second while managing to execute all kinds of spins and twirls - he'll do that one when here's a lot of kids on the ice).  i noticed twice now that he and another guy will stand at the window watching saari (by the end of public skating, she's usually about the only one on the ice, maybe one or two other ppl out there with her, so it's easy to see who they're tracking).  i'll see if it happens again on sunday and maybe i'll go say hi.

[fortune8]

Those looked suspiciously like spirals in the 2nd video - not so much hockey. 

I thought I'd add my 5 y/o skater is so intensely shy she's a hair away from being classified as socially phobic. But she wants to learn to figure skate so much she's willing to do the group lessons. She gets upset the first couple of weeks of a new class if an unfamiliar teacher/student speaks to her, and after that needs the teacher to come get her from the barrier to reassure her she's in the right place at the right time - but other than that the LTS classes have been more good than not (I'm forever reassessing). Any other activity she'd have flat out rejected groups. But skating she adores.

Might be worth trying the rink at the next town over??

[threenorns]

lol - yes, she keeps doing what she calls "fancy skating" but just the hint that maybe she'd like figure skates instead of hockey skates make her hyperventilate - she has the same issue with changes as your daughter:  at the day care once (once!), when she was about 3 or so, they moved the table from the circle configuration to four sets of four square tables and she was inconsolable for two days.  she refused to have anything to do with the tables so they made a special little station for her facing the wall so she wouldn't have to look at them.


i wish i could tap the club in haliburton, but there's no club there now, at least for the time being.  the rink was gutted bec the pipes underneath the ice burst causing ground contamination with salt water and they found all kinds of mold, so it all had to come out.  naturally, while they were at it, they decided to do a complete gut-and-rekit.  the club didn't operate last year and nobody knows if they're going to start up or if the club in my town is going to be "it".  someone told me there's been talk for years about the pointlessness of having two skate clubs so close together running the exact same program on the exact same schedule - the towns are 20min apart.  i don't know anything about running a skate club but it seems to me, too, that it would make sense to have the clubs offset their schedules because maybe i'm not available to bring my daughter mon and wed but i am available tues and thurs.

this was the official notice of the arena being closed:  http://www.haliburtonecho.ca/2012/07/10/dysart-arena-to-close-for-repairs

today is the grand reopening, with public skating from 9-5 (also tomorrow, then mon-fri from 11-1:50, then 9-5 again for the last wkend of march break), so saari's going to be in hog heaven, lol.

[threenorns]

yesterday's skate in haliburton in the new rink was 3-1/2hrs but about a half-hour was spent convincing her to go on the ice in the first place.  she kept saying "i've never been here before".  it took me a while to understand what she was saying was that she remembered how it used to look and couldn't reconcile her memory with what's happened now.  i thought by bringing her a couple times to see the place in construction would've helped with that but i guess not.  she did get on the ice and finally realized that she *loves* it.

today in minden, she did great except for when i finally went on the ice, she did it again:  cut right across in front of me and flung her arms around my waist in a hug.  it doesn't seem to matter how many times i have told her not nor how many times i have to land flat on top of her, she still does it.  so i told her today i cannot be out there on the ice with her.  if i'm not there, she's weaving in and out of ppl and avoiding ppl without even looking at them but as soon as i'm out there, her attention is fractured and accidents happen.

on the good side, that that guy approached me today and asked if he could skate with saari next time she's on the ice.  we chatted a bit and he asked the best way to introduce himself as he noticed she was... she is... er... and i said "yeah, i know - she's a bit different." and smiled to let him know it was okay, it's not like nobody else has noticed.  i said the best approach is sideways.  if you just walk up to her and say hi, my name is Rick, she'll fold in on herself and shut down but if you go sideways, she'll come to you.  he knew exactly what i meant bec his wife is a social worker who deals with special-needs kids.  i asked if he has worked with kids like saari before and he said he was a minor league coach.  instead of asking for credentials, i stopped the arena attendant passing by and said "is this guy any good working with kids?"   Rick coached his son for three years so that's good enough for me.

Rick had good things to say about saari - her technique is "surprisingly good if she's never had coaching"; she's very strong, especially in her hips and ankles; and she has excellent balance. 

so i guess there's good comes from her obsession with jumping and spinning (she's been doing both for at least an hour a day since she was 4mo old and in a jolly jumper, lol).