Does anyone know the lift angle measurements for P99 and MK Phantom?

[Nate]

For any two equivalent blade lengths.  I need to know how they compare - how high the back of the blades are off the ice with the drag picks touching.


Also, any comparison between either of these two and Ultima Elite or Supreme would also be helpful, but that's not exactly what I'm looking for (my options are open, but I'd prefer to avoid Matrix due to the sharpening inconvenience).


Not interested in Gold Seal or Gold Star (or Ultima Freestyle - too a low lift angle, and not really comparable to a Phantom at all).


Kind of a Mail Mary, since I know the Phantom isn't exactly a popular profile these days.

[Nate]

I've gone ahead and ordered the Paramount Phantom blades, so I no longer need the information.  I'll just compare when they come in since my P99s have only been sharpened once and are practically new still.

[tstop4me]

I've gone ahead and ordered the Paramount Phantom blades, so I no longer need the information.  I'll just compare when they come in since my P99s have only been sharpened once and are practically new still.

I'm a bit puzzled by your selection here.  Above you wrote:

(my options are open, but I'd prefer to avoid Matrix due to the sharpening inconvenience).

I skate on Paramounts (12" profile, nominal Gold Seal model, 440C stainless steel).  Paramount uses a design similar to Matrix (though different from Matrix in several key details):  a plain-carbon-steel or stainless-steel runner attached to a thicker aluminum-alloy chassis.  Hence, the Paramount, as well as the Matrix, blades require an appropriate jig (sufficient jaw capacity and range of vertical height adjustment) for sharpening.

Also, although some lower-end Paramounts have runners fabricated from plain-carbon steel, the 17" profile, nominal Phantom model, blades have runners fabricated only in either 420C or 440C stainless steel.  Be aware that either of these grades are more difficult to sharpen than plain-carbon steel; the 440C particularly so.  I gave feedback to my tech to help improve his sharpening of the 440C.

In summary, for a decent sharpening, you'll need a tech with a proper jig and with experience in sharpening stainless-steel blades. 

[Nate]

Paramounts are fine according to the two people I have sharpen my blades and the people with them that I’ve spoken to. That’s not a concern.

Paramount redesigned the chassis so they don’t require a jig to sharpen. Matrix are the only blade that require them, and the person here has no need for it because no one around here (that he sharpens for, or that I see at rinks) uses them. Quite a few people skate on the Apex models, though.

Ultima rocker profiles are too flat so they are off the table based solely on that. I probably should have stated only that and left it there.

[tstop4me]

Paramount redesigned the chassis so they don’t require a jig to sharpen. Matrix are the only blade that require them, and the person here has no need for it because no one around here (that he sharpens for, or that I see at rinks) uses them. Quite a few people skate on the Apex models, though.

I bought my second pair of Paramounts Nov 2022 (first pair ~2018). They didn't redesign the chassis.  On some models, they claimed that they increased the width of the runner so that you can use a standard hockey jig to grab the runner instead of a different jig to grab the chassis.  But the increase in width is only a mm or 2.  I asked my tech whether the new Paramounts can in fact be held with a standard hockey jig.  He told me no.  But since your tech is already sharpening Paramount, you're OK.  Paramount also pulled a fast one to further lighten weight and reduce their materials costs.  My first pair had a runner thickness of 0.160"/4.0 mm.  The new pair has a runner thickness of 0.140"/3.5 mm. 

It's Eclipse who redesigned their Titanium chassis to be thinner (according to their website).  But last I spoke to my tech (in Aug this year), Eclipse was still making arrangements for a new manufacturer for their blades; so stock is really scarce. [Eclipse blades were previously manufactured by Step of Canada.  But Step and Jackson/Ultima are now owned by the same parent corporation; and of course, Riedell/Eclipse are direct competitors of Jackson/Ultima.]

[tstop4me]

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[Nate]

Honestly, if a jig was such a big issue I'd just buy one for my Pro and move on with my life.

It seems no one can actually answer the question, so I've ordered the blades and will do the comparison myself.  If the lift angle is too high, then I'll simply return them for something that is a bit lower still.

Ultima Blades not an option at all because the rockers are too flat and the lift angles are too low.  An Ultima Supreme is closer to a Pattern 99 than a Gold Seal, when it comes to that.  I already have blades with better rocker profiles [for me] than any of their blades, so I don't see a point in wasting any mental energy thinking about them, or tying up funds ordering them.