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On the Ice => The Pro Shop => Topic started by: FigureSpins on July 13, 2017, 09:58:48 AM

Title: Jackson Debut Boot
Post by: FigureSpins on July 13, 2017, 09:58:48 AM
Jackson announced a new model today: the Debut.  It's rated up through Axel.

http://www.jacksonultima.com/en/Index.aspx?product=pLCdcjOtcln22rcKmyYpcg1A2B3C4D5E1A2B3C4D5E
Title: Re: Jackson Debut Boot
Post by: tstop4me on July 13, 2017, 04:01:21 PM
Sexual discrimination lawsuit in the offing.  Women's boots come with Swarovski crystals, men's don't. 
Title: Re: Jackson Debut Boot
Post by: skategeek on July 13, 2017, 04:05:52 PM
Jackson announced a new model today: the Debut.  It's rated up through Axel.

http://www.jacksonultima.com/en/Index.aspx?product=pLCdcjOtcln22rcKmyYpcg1A2B3C4D5E1A2B3C4D5E

And the Competitor (about the same support level) just disappeared from the Boot page (but is still on the Figure Skate page with the attached Aspire blade).  So I guess the Debut is meant to sort of replace the Competitor for people who want just the boot?  (I'm keeping an eye on this because that's probably about the level boot I'll be looking at when I eventually have to replace my Elles.)
Title: Re: Jackson Debut Boot
Post by: davincisop on July 14, 2017, 08:17:32 AM
I feel like such a nerd saying this, but I'm a graphic designer/illustrator full time and who thought kerning this was a good idea..... the letters should connect....
Title: Re: Jackson Debut Boot
Post by: skategeek on July 14, 2017, 08:51:54 AM
I feel like such a nerd saying this, but I'm a graphic designer/illustrator full time and who thought kerning this was a good idea..... the letters should connect....

I hadn't noticed initially because I didn't zoom in, but you're right.  Now that's going to drive me nuts.  The new D ebut!
Title: Re: Jackson Debut Boot
Post by: FigureSpins on July 14, 2017, 10:05:21 AM
I feel like such a nerd saying this, but I'm a graphic designer/illustrator full time and who thought kerning this was a good idea..... the letters should connect....

I thought about you in late April - were your ears burning?  I used the new Microsoft font, Gabriola, for a exhibition program.  It drove me crazy - loved the font, but couldn't figure out how to get the swirls and swishes to behave.  The font shows different flourishes based on the actual letters and it doesn't kern nicely.  Two of skaters have a two-word last name (no hyphen.)  The mom proofread the document and said "You left out the space!"  I hadn't - for one skater, it looked fine, for the other, there was no gap.  Putting an extra space resolved it, but it was so frustrating!  In the titles, it added spaces I didn't want!  If it hadn't been the middle of the night, I would have asked for your help.
Title: Re: Jackson Debut Boot
Post by: tstop4me on July 14, 2017, 10:33:37 AM
I hadn't noticed initially because I didn't zoom in, but you're right.  Now that's going to drive me nuts.  The new D ebut!
This is part of a carefully planned rollout ... the next model will be the E ebut.
Title: Re: Jackson Debut Boot
Post by: tothepointe on August 16, 2017, 06:12:55 PM
This is what I will be getting to replace my current pair. They didn't have my size in stock today but will on Friday. It's a nice little boot and has a better quality feel to it than the Competitor imho. I liked the micro fiber a lot more than I thought I would. It has a nice feel to it.

I'll update this post with my first impressions once I've been able to try them on the ice.
Title: Re: Jackson Debut Boot
Post by: aussieskater on August 17, 2017, 07:21:53 AM
Hmm those Debuts look like really nice boots, but it seems they come only in 2 widths ("A-B" and "C-D"), which probably means they can't be semi-customed. (I need A or AA heel and E ball.)
Title: Re: Jackson Debut Boot
Post by: tstop4me on August 17, 2017, 08:06:08 AM
Hmm those Debuts look like really nice boots, but it seems they come only in 2 widths ("A-B" and "C-D"), which probably means they can't be semi-customed. (I need A or AA heel and E ball.)
You shouldn't make that assumption.  The two listed widths are for stock boots.  Contact Jackson to see whether they will provide a semi-custom split width in the model you're interested in.
Title: Re: Jackson Debut Boot
Post by: davincisop on August 18, 2017, 03:46:32 PM
I thought about you in late April - were your ears burning?  I used the new Microsoft font, Gabriola, for a exhibition program.  It drove me crazy - loved the font, but couldn't figure out how to get the swirls and swishes to behave.  The font shows different flourishes based on the actual letters and it doesn't kern nicely.  Two of skaters have a two-word last name (no hyphen.)  The mom proofread the document and said "You left out the space!"  I hadn't - for one skater, it looked fine, for the other, there was no gap.  Putting an extra space resolved it, but it was so frustrating!  In the titles, it added spaces I didn't want!  If it hadn't been the middle of the night, I would have asked for your help.

Ah I just saw this, Figurespins! That's crazy haha. I hate when fonts don't work like you want them to. I know often a lot of fonts these days have opentype alternates (if it's a .otf, that's the big clue) and you can enable them in a menu bar, and there are sometimes options for alternate glyphs. Ideally the font is programmed that at the end of a word it subs the glyph that would allow it to look "finished" rather than one that would be a continuance, but that's always a toss up. :)
Title: Re: Jackson Debut Boot
Post by: tothepointe on August 18, 2017, 04:12:21 PM
Hmm those Debuts look like really nice boots, but it seems they come only in 2 widths ("A-B" and "C-D"), which probably means they can't be semi-customed. (I need A or AA heel and E ball.)

They've only been out 2 months they are built around the new elite last so semi customs might be available. I got mine heat molded today and waiting for them to be mounted etc. The fit in the heel is snugger than the Competitor/Freestyle and they wrap around the instep much better. It's a really good improvement for those of us not quite ready for the higher end boots but have feet with "needs". I didn't think I'd look at Jackson again because their boots always look so clunky but these have a nice aesthetic to them once on the foot. The padding is really nice like a sneaker almost.

My fitter did say that Jackson is coming out with them next year with a thermo-plastic sole. I'm not sure if meant the lower level models that have plastic soles will now have this style boot or if the debut itself will have an Edea like sole. Considering one of Jackson's selling point is their soles aren't plastic I'm going to assume the lower end sets might be getting a makeover.

I'll update again once I've had some ice time with them. My current boot is a Reidell 910 Flair but I opted for the regular cut not the low cut this time.
Title: Re: Jackson Debut Boot
Post by: tstop4me on August 19, 2017, 05:42:32 AM
They've only been out 2 months they are built around the new elite last so semi customs might be available.
I just want to confirm this.  The Jackson website states that the Premiere is built on the Elite last; but there is no such statement for the Debut.  Did your boots come with a brochure that says it is?  The stock Elite last is split width, with the heel one width narrower than the ball; for some people with slightly narrow heels, this is sufficient to avoid semi-customs.
Title: Re: Jackson Debut Boot
Post by: tothepointe on August 19, 2017, 01:18:31 PM
It is my understanding that it is the same as the premier which is the same as the elite. They advertise them as elite features at a lower price. The Premiere and the Debut both have that same A/B and C/D sizing which is different from the Elite. I would have tried the Premieres but they would be too stiff for me.

It's definitely NOT the same last as the Competitors/Freestyle as I tried both side by side. The Debut has a much snugger heel and a better wrap around the instep and ankle.

I can't imagine they'd create a special last just for the Debut that is not the same as the Elite/Premiere or the Competitor/Freestyle. From a manufacturing standpoint, it doesn't make sense. Takes too long to develop a last that works. It is easy enough for them to grade it into other sizes though.

 I CAN see them having a last for the Elite/Premiere/Debut and then another for the lower-priced boot and blade sets. Also, they would want to have some kind of fit consistency across the line.

I pick them up today so I'll try to do a side by side comparison with the Freestyles that I have had (though they are 1/2 size bigger)

I will say this these boot manufacturers do make it difficult to understand what skate comes with what. If you just releasing a new boot you'd think they'd want to advertise a bit more.
Title: Re: Jackson Debut Boot
Post by: Christy on August 19, 2017, 09:01:43 PM
I popped into a skate shop today and they had a pair on display. Maybe it's because I currently have the Ice Fly but I thought they were really heavy.  Chatting to the staff they said they'd had them a few weeks and so far the feedback hadn't been good, especially about the microfiber feel.
Title: Re: Jackson Debut Boot
Post by: tstop4me on August 20, 2017, 06:48:10 AM
I popped into a skate shop today and they had a pair on display. Maybe it's because I currently have the Ice Fly but I thought they were really heavy.  Chatting to the staff they said they'd had them a few weeks and so far the feedback hadn't been good, especially about the microfiber feel.
  <<Emphasis added>>

Could you please explain what you mean by "microfiber feel"?  Do you simply mean that people touching the boots in the store didn't like the way they felt?  Or do you mean that some skaters have actually purchased the boots and didn't like the way they handled during actual skating?
Title: Re: Jackson Debut Boot
Post by: Jenna on August 20, 2017, 07:11:55 AM
The microfiber lining definitely feels different.  I have Jackson Elites (the new 5200 version) and skate barefoot now, which I never did before.  The microfiber lining made my tights bunch and pull and I had to put my boots on at least twice before lacing to adjust my tights.  I had the same problem with my Edeas, which also has a microfiber lining.  I had clarino lining on my boots prior and prefer that lining. 
Title: Re: Jackson Debut Boot
Post by: tothepointe on August 20, 2017, 12:52:50 PM
The microfiber upper definitely doesn't feel like traditional leather. It has a slightly rubbery/velvety feeling. I can see that people might feel it's "cheap".  It's not as bad as I expected. The waffle weave lining is very similar to a running shoe. I'm hoping the texture will help prevent slipping. Longevity wise I'm not sure if anyone really knows yet because they haven't been out for that long. I don't expect a $300 boot to last forever though. We will see if it's truly cut resistance shortly.

I think if you like a really traditional feeling boot this is not for you. If your wanting a really lightweight boot like the Edea this is also not for you. Weight wise mounted it comes in the same as both my Riedell 910LS and the Jackson Freestyles.
Title: Re: Jackson Debut Boot
Post by: Christy on August 20, 2017, 10:36:21 PM
  <<Emphasis added>>

Could you please explain what you mean by "microfiber feel"?  Do you simply mean that people touching the boots in the store didn't like the way they felt?  Or do you mean that some skaters have actually purchased the boots and didn't like the way they handled during actual skating?

They weren't specific, but I thought they meant how they felt when skating. That said I did think the outer felt very odd, and I didn't like it, but that may have also been because they felt much heavier than I recalled my Elites feeling.
Title: Re: Jackson Debut Boot
Post by: tothepointe on August 21, 2017, 01:14:29 AM
A few weeks isn't long to get much feedback especially regarding the on ice experience. I'm starting my breaking in experience tomorrow.
Title: Re: Jackson Debut Boot
Post by: sampaguita on August 21, 2017, 01:28:27 AM
I'm gonna need a split-width Freestyle. I currently have a 4.5B, and though the heel is good, the ball is too narrow.

To those who have tried it: would a R-size Debut be enough for me, or do I have to go with split width as well?
Title: Re: Jackson Debut Boot
Post by: tstop4me on August 21, 2017, 06:05:50 AM
A few weeks isn't long to get much feedback especially regarding the on ice experience. I'm starting my breaking in experience tomorrow.
Absolutely agree.  The real test is how well skaters like them after they've skated on them (which is why I asked for clarification on Christy's Post #14).  Although, if skaters are turned off by them for whatever reason upon casual inspection or handling in the shop, they won't buy them in the first place.  One skate pro told me that many of his teen girl customers (a large chunk of his figure skate clientele) shy away from Jacksons because they look clunky but are drawn to Edeas because they look so cool.
Title: Re: Jackson Debut Boot
Post by: tstop4me on August 21, 2017, 06:12:31 AM
I'm gonna need a split-width Freestyle. I currently have a 4.5B, and though the heel is good, the ball is too narrow.

To those who have tried it: would a R-size Debut be enough for me, or do I have to go with split width as well?
The best way to find out is to go to an authorized Jackson fitter, who will take measurements and tracings of your feet and send them off to Jackson.  They will then tell you whether the stock boot will do, or whether you need semi-customs.  Also, refer to previous Posts #11, 12, and 13; it's not clear (at least to me right now) what last the new Debut is built on.
Title: Re: Jackson Debut Boot
Post by: Jenna on August 21, 2017, 09:08:04 AM
One skate pro told me that many of his teen girl customers (a large chunk of his figure skate clientele) shy away from Jacksons because they look clunky but are drawn to Edeas because they look so cool.

That's funny.  I never thought Jacksons looked clunkier than any other brand, but think that Edeas (the Piano, specifically) look far clunkier for whatever reason.  I totally see the appeal of Ice Flys for teens, though.  I want them as an adult and know how bad Edeas feel on my feet already.
Title: Re: Jackson Debut Boot
Post by: ChristyRN on August 21, 2017, 05:10:20 PM
I'm gonna need a split-width Freestyle. I currently have a 4.5B, and though the heel is good, the ball is too narrow.

To those who have tried it: would a R-size Debut be enough for me, or do I have to go with split width as well?

I think you have to go higher to get a split width. I had Competitors and had to go up to Premieres to get split width.
Title: Re: Jackson Debut Boot
Post by: tothepointe on August 21, 2017, 05:50:39 PM
I'm gonna need a split-width Freestyle. I currently have a 4.5B, and though the heel is good, the ball is too narrow.

To those who have tried it: would a R-size Debut be enough for me, or do I have to go with split width as well?

The Debuts have a narrower heel than the Competitors. I have previously worn the Freestyles and tried out the competitors before I settled on the debuts and it is a different fit. It depends on how much more snug you need the heels to be. For me, the difference in the fit was enough. Best bet is just to get a fitting, try and them and see how it goes.

Title: Re: Jackson Debut Boot
Post by: tothepointe on August 21, 2017, 05:59:25 PM
Absolutely agree.  The real test is how well skaters like them after they've skated on them (which is why I asked for clarification on Christy's Post #14).  Although, if skaters are turned off by them for whatever reason upon casual inspection or handling in the shop, they won't buy them in the first place.  One skate pro told me that many of his teen girl customers (a large chunk of his figure skate clientele) shy away from Jacksons because they look clunky but are drawn to Edeas because they look so cool.

I'm not a teenager but this was totally me. I swore I wouldn't consider Jacksons again because they looked like golf cleats. But I'm happy with how my foot looks in these. A little sleeker thanks to the wrap system.

One ice went well today no real issues from the boots. Now, of course, I went down from a 10" blade to a 9 1/2" thanks to the heel height/foot pitch being higher than my Reidells and just a smaller size in general. The heel is slightly higher/has a different pitch compared to my older Freestyles.

I might shoot off a message to Jackson and see if I can get an answer on what last they are using. Either the elite, the one they use for the lower end sets or something new. It would be nice to know.
Title: Re: Jackson Debut Boot
Post by: tothepointe on August 28, 2017, 08:06:37 PM
Break in on the Debut has been very minimal and after 5-6 sessions on the ice I have forgotten they are new apart from not tying all the way to the top. Upper seems cut resistant in what would have been large gouges in my other boots are just small thin cuts.

In general, I'm pretty pleased with the switch.
Title: Re: Jackson Debut Boot
Post by: Query on August 29, 2017, 12:57:15 PM
One skate pro told me that many of his teen girl customers (a large chunk of his figure skate clientele) shy away from Jacksons because they look clunky but are drawn to Edeas because they look so cool.

Does "clunky" just mean it is wider at the toe? In which case, it might appeal to girls with wide toes? And that "cool" means narrow-toed - comfortable to some people, painful to others? And/Or does "clunky" mean heavy?

Title: Re: Jackson Debut Boot
Post by: FigureSpins on August 29, 2017, 02:09:44 PM
Break in on the Debut has been very minimal and after 5-6 sessions on the ice I have forgotten they are new apart from not tying all the way to the top. Upper seems cut resistant in what would have been large gouges in my other boots are just small thin cuts.

In general, I'm pretty pleased with the switch.

Good to know. Do you have width or insole issues?
Title: Re: Jackson Debut Boot
Post by: tothepointe on August 29, 2017, 07:10:43 PM
I THOUGHT I had insole issues until I switched. I was using Riedell R-Fit insoles with all the doodads but thus far I've been fine with the Jackson footbeds.I had been having unbearable arch pain on my left foot before. That has gone completely thus far.

I have a wide forefoot but I also have tapered toes so usually as long as a skate is heat molded for it's fine at the ball of the foot without punching anything out.

What I have had issues with is a higher instep which makes it harder to lace in that area and heels that slip. So far the better wrap system and the slightly narrower heel have solved that problem. For my instep, I can see that the Premiere or Elite might be even better but are too stiff for me at this point.

My assessment is it's a nice little boot for those in between needing a boot and blade set and needing a more "serious" boot.

Having worn the Freestyles in the past and having had tried on the Competitors at the same time my assessment is that it's a different fit/last with a slightly narrower heel but the same width at the ball.

Looks wise it's a big improvement on the Freestyle. My feet look a little sleeker and the reinforcement adds a visual reference for me to help tie my skates to the right firmness as well as visually creating a contour.

The backstrap is a nice feature. Just a few rhinestones but along with the reflective piping, it has a nice shimmer on the ice. If Jackson chooses to put this same feature on the lower level models I can see it being quite popular with the younger girls. I know we are supposed to pretend that we are in figure skating for the hard work, not the sparkles but a little but of well-placed bling never hurt anyone.


I'll try and remember to update this 6-12 months from now with how they lasted.
Title: Re: Jackson Debut Boot
Post by: tothepointe on August 29, 2017, 07:13:34 PM
Does "clunky" just mean it is wider at the toe? In which case, it might appeal to girls with wide toes? And that "cool" means narrow-toed - comfortable to some people, painful to others? And/Or does "clunky" mean heavy?

Some of the previous Jacksons like the Freestyle and the Competitor the outer boot didn't show any of the contours of the foot. So what little shape you might have had was lost even though they did accommodate this on the inside. I didn't think that I'd like going back to Jackson but even though I have a wide ball the rest of the boot is sleek. Proportions matter
Title: Re: Jackson Debut Boot
Post by: tstop4me on August 30, 2017, 08:27:32 AM
Does "clunky" just mean it is wider at the toe? In which case, it might appeal to girls with wide toes? And that "cool" means narrow-toed - comfortable to some people, painful to others? And/Or does "clunky" mean heavy?
It's an issue of visual appeal taking priority over functional appeal.  Jacksons tend to be more anatomically conforming; in particular, a more rounded, rather than more pointed, toe.  Functionally, it should appeal to skaters with wide (or even normal) toes; but, visually, many are turned off.  Edeas not only have classic pointed toes, but their trendier models (such as the wildly popular Ice Fly) have sculpted cutouts and Swarovski crystal adornment.  The same skate pro also told me that the top selling line of blades in his shop were the Ultima Matrix series.  Because of superior engineering design, because of superior materials, because of better pricing?  No.  Because of all the pretty colors to choose from.

I remember a discussion I had back in the '80s with another skate pro.  At the time I was wearing Riedells, and I said I wished that Riedell would offer boots with rounded, instead of pointed, toes.  He told me that one company had come out with a line of anatomically conforming boots with square toes ... but skaters thought them too ugly, and they were yanked from the market right quick.

Title: Re: Jackson Debut Boot
Post by: Query on August 30, 2017, 12:05:59 PM
Now that I think of it, a lot of skaters, especially women, pay a lot of attention to their other clothing, and are willing to pay a lot more for beautiful and unique clothing. Likewise, if I walk into a big shoe store, I see hundreds or thousands of wildly different models, many of which aren't particularly functional. It makes sense that Edea is running away with some of this market if they have a sleeker style.

I guess it just isn't something I tend to notice.
Title: Re: Jackson Debut Boot
Post by: tothepointe on September 12, 2017, 05:25:23 PM
Here is the response to the question I asked Jackson about whether the Debut was built on the Elite last or not.

"Little different from the Elite last but very similar. Fit and feel are appropriate for intermediate level with support for Axel/doubles"

Title: Re: Jackson Debut Boot
Post by: tstop4me on September 13, 2017, 04:38:32 PM
Here is the response to the question I asked Jackson about whether the Debut was built on the Elite last or not.

"Little different from the Elite last but very similar. Fit and feel are appropriate for intermediate level with support for Axel/doubles"
Thanks for posting this info.  Strange that Jackson would develop a new last, though.
Title: Re: Jackson Debut Boot
Post by: tothepointe on September 14, 2017, 12:38:32 AM
I'm thinking they'll probably use this last when they update the rest of their line and use it on the Freestyle/Mystique/Classique etc. They seem to be introducing new models from the top of the line on down. Makes sense they'd want to use the improved fit throughout the line.
Title: Re: Jackson Debut Boot
Post by: tstop4me on September 14, 2017, 05:08:02 AM
I'm thinking they'll probably use this last when they update the rest of their line and use it on the Freestyle/Mystique/Classique etc. They seem to be introducing new models from the top of the line on down. Makes sense they'd want to use the improved fit throughout the line.
As Mr. Spock would say, "That's logical."  ;)