Buying new blades . . . .what do you think?

[Neverdull44]

Where do I go in blades from here?

I have MK Professionals, 20 year old blades.   They are totally ground.  Nothing left.   At this point, i feel like my skating is suffering because my blades are so bad.  Sometimes, after this last sharpening, it feels like I am skating on a different material sometimes.   I am watching where my toe pick is, and almost bit it on forward power stroking.   My blades were originally a 7' rocker.   Today, they are super flat, but I don't have a way to measure them.  The skate shop says that they don't have a rocker measurer.  I am going to ask again, because a minor league hockey team skates there. 

Because they are so flat, I am leaning towards going up to  8' rocker.  I think going back to a 7' rocker is going to feel weird. Anyone measured worn out blades?   But, I worry that, "Will I be able to skate on an 8?" "They" say that an 8' is for advanced skaters.   I don't do doubles.  I am 45 years young.   I am working on adding loops after every jump, and am on my axel journey.   Some days, I have a 6 revolution camel, but most days it is 3.  I am working on my flying camel (3 revolutions).  My sit spins are strong, and I like to pull back on the blade.   I have a pretty good backspin, even the kids complement me on it.

I read the kudos on parabolic blades, and how they center your balance.   That sounds great because loops in footwork and brackets on a straight line are not the most fun.   But, I've only skated on parallel blades.  Anyone skate switch to parabolic, what was the learning curve?  And, I'm afraid to get an expensive blade.  I think our pro shop would butcher it.   Are parabolics easier to butcher?

My husband is an engineer and rebuilds cars.  He can do anything mechanical.  Should I have him spend $5,000 on a sharpening system?  Anyone ever learned how to do blades from scratch?  Seems extreme,  but . . . the whole family skates.   I  had a GREAT, independent skate sharpener, but he moved away. :-(

What blade do you skate in?  Your level?

I wish blades were like golf clubs, where you could try them.  Don't want to make a several hundred dollar mistake.

 

[Neverdull44]

Pictures of my old blades.

[Christy]

Well you are a better skater than me
I had MK Pro blades (7" rocker) which had been used for approx. 8 months / 3-4 times per week, and I switched to Matrix Legacy blades (8" rocker) because I wanted to extend the time between sharpenings. IIRC my learning curve was around 5 hours and I was totally comfortable by 10 hours.
The only issue I have is that even if I wanted to get the blades sharpened locally I couldn't because not all sharpeners have the correct equipment to sharpen the fatter blade.

p.s. yes, train him up, and move up here 

[Loops]

I had the same blades as you!  25 y.o. Profs ground completely flat, rocker of infinity.  I went with a synchro blade, and didn't have an 8' option (was unfamiliar with Ultima and wanted to stick with trusty MK/Wilson).

Now, after being back on the ice one year, I would absolutely consider an 8' rocker.  And given the raves my old fitter was giving to Ultima, I wouldn't hesitate to buy their blades, except that I'm not sure my sharpener can handle the matrix format.  But they've standard models too.

Given how flat your blades are, I think you're in a risk-free situation.  ANY new blade is going to feel curvy AND better on the spin rocker (I had my drag pick ground down a smidge while I was waiting for my new blades to arrive.....don't do it, it made things worse).  You're going to have to re-find the sweet spot anyway, since right now, you pretty much have none.  Ultima makes absolute beginner blades in an 8' rocker- so I think there's no hard and fast rule about 8' being for advanced skaters only.  Rather, it's what you're used too/your preference.  There's no way to determine your preference other than taking the plunge and trying things out.  I agree that I wish we could try before webuy......

I don't know that I'd bother with parabolics.  Davincisop has them and I know likes them, so if finances allowed, they might be fun to try, but I doubt they're magic, and might be difficult to sharpen.  Different sharpeners seem to have different opinions on that.  But if your husband is going to get into that game, there isn't a flat surface for him to line up, so for a beginner sharpener it might be pretty difficult.

As for sharpening at home, I don't see why not, if you have space for the rig and can afford the $5k.  How many are you that skate?  It's what, $20 a pop for sharpening + gas?  (that's what I pay in the US).   I know a woman in the UK who got a rig and is doing it.  Once you learn hoe to do it, you can sharpen for others, too the rig might actually pay for itself in a reasonable period of time.  There's no reason why you can't learn to do it as well as DH.

Good luck with the choice!  And have fun with it!

[AgnesNitt]

You can get sharpeners for less than $5k. There's one on ebay right now for $1400. And I've seen a single head model for $600. I have an acquaintance  who sharpens professionally who got a rig for $3000.

[Nate]

I wouldn't just have someone start sharpening Side-Honed blades (Phantom, Gold Seal and all its clones, Gold Star), because the chances of them getting the edges even will be comically low.  Without a proper sharpening, your skating can suffer.

As for blade choices...

Just pick one you like.

If your blades are that old, then the profile they had even when they were new are likely not even the same as what the current MK Professionals (which feel more like Gold Stars with lower stanchions these days) have, so there will be an adjustment period no matter what you buy.

The rocker radius is unimportant compared to the actual profile of the rocker (where and how it's curved).

The diagram is a display of the rocker profiles of each blade type, assuming a 10" Blade size:  http://paramountskates.com/ourblades.php

You have to find the type of blade you feel most comfortable on, and it's hard to make a really good suggestion (outside of "I or most people I know like these") for the same reasons you're asking for recommendations...  You can't try them on like Shoes at the mall :-(

[sarahspins]

Honestly, with a flattened spin rocker, ANY blade is going to feel very very different from what you are used to... 7ft vs 8ft radius really doesn't make that much of a difference, because the primary difference you will be feeling right away is due to the smaller radius of the spin rocker, not usually the rest of the blade.

I am with Nate - just pick something and it will be just fine... eventually.  There probably will be some significant adjustment since you are going from used up blades to brand new, but you're going to experience that adjustment regardless of what new blade you choose.  Some people can adapt quickly, others make take longer, and it's hard to know how you will manage until you've been through it a few times. 

[Loops]

Thanks Nate, for that diagram!

I also had a look-see through their site, and they actually sell a sharpener.  Dunno what shipping would be on it, but at $3200 (sharpener plus original holder....they do have a slightly less expensive one), it's less than the 5K you were thinking....

http://paramountskates.com/Sharpening.php

[Query]

Are those rusty blades really "Neverdull"? 

Pro-Filer kits ($95, get the kit for the right ROH) or Berghman ($5-20 used - 1/2" ROH only) hand tools, plus a flat stone to straighten and/or dull the burr, take 5 - 10 minutes to sharpen well, if you don't let it go too flat. That includes time to check for even edges, and, once in a while, your rocker profile. With parabolics or other width shaping, you need to check that you have removed metal uniformly enough to maintain the width profile at various points too - a little more time, and money for measuring tools. (I can't say whether you would notice parabolic width shaping.)

MK/Wilson blades sometimes need reshaping, and you may want to change the sweet spot in any event, so let a good pro do the first sharpening, because big changes are slow on hand tools, and wear out the stone. A very good pro for parabolic otherwise width shaped blades.

[Neverdull44]

Yes!  "Neverdull's" (my) blades are a little rusty.   LOL.

I have thought & thought about this for the past week.  New blades on old boots are not going to align right.   My current boots & blades are 2.14 pounds, a piece.  I'm 45 years young, but think less weight could be better on my joints in the long run.  Those Edeas, I've heard rave reviews about.   So, I am going to a pro-shop in Coral Springs (about 100 miles away) to see a pair of Edeas.   If I get them and don't like them, then I'll be back to my Harlicks.   My Harlicks are just wonderful skates.  I've used them for 2 years and they are now at the 'super comfortable' level.   I think I'm leaning towards a Pattern 99 blade.  Coach said I'll do fine in them, once I learn the toe pick.   

And, I'm going to look at putting a dance or synchro blade on my Harlicks.  Our rink has a dance class on Saturday morning, and I want to take it again.  But, this time, I'm MAKING my husband do it (he hockey skates).

[Nate]

I went to lighter boots.

If I could have the weight back, I'd take it in a New York second.

I I can find some quarter pound weights to strap to my ankles/front of boot ankle (like where the buzzers strap on), I'm jumping on them, at least temporarily.

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[Neverdull44]

Why?

[Nate]

Messed up my timing for jumps, especially axel and doubles.

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[Loops]

New blades on old boots are not going to align right.   

I don't understand this.  Your skates sound like they're still in good shape (no?).  If so, there's absolutely no reason you can't have the holes plugged and the new blades put on there.  It's easier to adjust to new blades without having to break in new boots at the same time.

But have fun trying on the Edea's....you may just find the new love of your life!

And Oh how I WISH I could force my husband to take skating lessons.  I really want to dance with him, but he's just so not into it.  Plus he's on Dad duty while I'm at the rink...our 4 and 6 yo can not self-entertain non-disruptively......  Someday....someday.....

[Nate]

Maybe she's talking about the indentations the blades make in the boot from weight/impact.

That's nothing to worry about. The new blades will make their own after a while. The worse you'd have to do is tighten a few screws after they settle in.

If they are super deep indentations that cause the new blade to be severely lopsided when mounted, then that may be a problem.

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[Query]

(The forum rejected my first attempts to post this because my original image was too large, then wouldn't let me retry - odd.
So I'll reword it, and put the image on a web page.)

>New blades on old boots are not going to align right.   

I'm with Loops on this. Plugging holes isn't hard. An easy but slow way is to fill them with Shoe Goo. If you are unwilling to wait 3 days for the shoe goo to set, use a hot air drier to speed it up.

All the cheap power sharpening tools I've seen have major limits. They are unable to create even edges on even slightly warped blades, and/or they can't handle variations in blade thickness, such as are in parabolic blades. But I haven't seen them all - if you find one that works well, I'd love to know about it.

As I and others have pointed out before, there are much cheaper hand tools that can do the job. It takes more time - typically 5 - 10 minutes if they just need a little sharpening, and you have to take measurements to verify you've done everything right, which means it would take a little longer to reproduce those parabolic thickness variations. That's substantially slower than good power tools, but it is fast enough for one skater. In fact, you may have been spending more time driving to a separate pro shop.

The clear weakness of hand sharpening is that they are orders of magnitude slower than good power tools to make major changes - e.g., the original shape defects that often show up on MK and Wilson blades, profile changes that have accumulated over time due to inexpert sharpening, other major profile changes such as altering the sweet spot, or altering the ROH. So, for these things, it is easier to let an expert pro shop do the first sharpening, and help you get the sweet spot right.

Rainbo (and at request, possibly other mail-order/on-line retailers) can do an initial sharpening for you before they ship, which could correct the big MK/Wilson blade shape issues. But the sweet spot is harder, because it depends on your personal anatomy, and you may want to experiment with exactly where it is placed.

To print rocker templates to compare against your blades, see this thread.

[Nate]

I understand where you're coming from, and i dont mean this to be dismissive or disreapectful of obviously well-intentioned advice; but most people asking about this on a forum should not be using hand tools to sharpen blades when a pro will sharpen for a cheap price. It's not like you have to sharpen often.

Also some blade types are too hard for an inexperience pro to sharpen properly, which makes them almost impossible for someone asking about this on a forum to get right without wasting ridiculous amount of metal correcting mistakes. An incorrect sharpening can still be skate able even if the performance of the blades aren't as good, so once someone makes a mistake they may not notice until they take their blades until a pro, good intentioned advice becomes destructive then.

Sweet spot can be fixed by buying a better blade for your anatomy and skating style, not trying to make another blade into something it's not. There are blades that have it further forwards or back, take your pick. That's what I did. Problem fixed, instantly, with none of that work. In 2 years or so when I upgrade, I'll know what to buy.

I don't understand why anyone would want a gold seal and then risk trashing it with all of these customizations when they can buy a pattern or phantom and just plop them on the boots and go skate, jump, and spin because those blades work best for them.

If you're afraid to lose money, buy from a manufacturer like Riedell or Ultima who has a return guarantee.

The number of people who need that kind of work is miniscule.

I don't think advocating hand sharpening is necessarily good. Take your blades to a pro and get them sharpened.

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[Bill_S]

I don't think advocating hand sharpening is necessarily good. Take your blades to a pro and get them sharpened.

It's not necessarily good, nor is it necessarily bad. It's a choice.

I ran some metal removal experiments a while back with the Pro-Filer skate sharpener. It removes metal very slowly. Being curious, I measured how much metal is removed from the hollow and from the edges in a 2-hour marathon. After this extended sharpening session, I measured 0.004" removed from the hollow- which is about the thickness of a human hair. Routine sharpening to freshen the edges removes about 1/4 of that.

At the same time I ran my experiment, Wm Letendre in Boston measured how much was removed by a professional sharpening done by a respected shop. He measured 0.005" metal removed in the few minutes required to sharpen his blades. With a heavy hand, less experienced operators can easily remove much more and ruin a blade. That happened to me in the 70s when the first sharpening of new blades removed ALL the rocker. I know that I'm not alone with such horror stories.

I can see your point if you live in a large metro area close to a respected sharpener. If that were the case, I wouldn't waste my time sharpening my own blades. However I live 75 miles from a good sharpener in Columbus, OH, and unfortunately his hours coincide with my own working hours. It's next to impossible for me to see him.

I'd sum up the advantages and disadvantages of hand sharpening as:

Advantages:
No need to travel to find a sharpener with a good reputation.
Slow metal removal rate means very little rocker change over time - won't substantially change the rocker even after years of skating/sharpening.
Once the sharpening kit is purchased, no further costs are involved.

Disadvantages:
Takes time to do. I allow a bit under an hour to tape blades, sharpen, and clean up.
Messy if you use oil. Water will be less messy. I use oil and wear latex gloves to minimize the effect on skin.
Can't do parabolics. May have trouble with other unusual configurations too.
It's best suited for the mechanically inclined and requires patience. (I'm a trained engineer and avid DIYer, so I find it a relaxing task)

I just wanted to add my own viewpoint driven by my own experiences. To me, it's just about the only option available. Our university rink is run by college students, with only current students serving as coaches (by university decree). That also includes counter help, and skate sharpeners too - they're all college students with unknown experience. I've heard some very loud yelling in the lobby by people holding freshly "sharpened" skates, and the regulars all avoid their service.

[Nate]

I drive 60 miles to get my skates sharpened.

Down south, I used to drive over 3 hours to get them sharpened, and if I had some time off the ice, I'd just ship them overnight to him and he'd ship them back at no charge.

Always seek out the best pros in your area, and yes, I do know it can be a bit of a downer in some areas where there aren't many Pros closeby.  I've been in that position and totally empathize.

[Neverdull44]

I'm mainly worried about the blade impression on the bottom of the soles.   A very respected coach who is also a national judge and has many miles under her belt, told me that putting new blades on older boots doesn't work out that good because they don't always sit perpendicular.

My fear is that I buy 10.25 Patterns, and then they don't fit on my old boots.  So, then I'm back at buying new boots.   While I love, love, love my Harlicks, I am interested in a lighter boot for my joints.   Then, what if the 10.25 blade isn't good on the Edeas.  Now, I'll have to buy new boots and blades!

I am going on an Edea fitter on Friday.  Good:  Lots of people love them.   Lighter weight might be better on my joints.   And, it might make it easier to bring my legs together in jumps.  Bad:   One of the skaters at my rink, tried and hated them.  And, she knows a person who broke her ankle in them.  I like ankle support. I'm not sure if as an older skater, I can learn to skate in new boots.

I'm also going to call MK (or try) tomorrow. I wonder if they changed the cast for the plate 20 years ago.  If I order another 10.25 MK's, will they fit like the ones I have that are 20 years old?  If I go up to the MK Phantom, would it sit just like the Pros?  So many questions.

My Harlicks are strong boots, and comfy.   I can't say a bad thing about them, but they are heavy.  There is a crease on the outside of the boot, but it's not broken down enough for the level that I skate at.   The coaching pro looked at them and said she'd switch me if I was doing a double axel.   

[TreSk8sAZ]

Have you considered lightweight Harlicks? I'm a Harlick girl and generally always have been. I had the same problem as you - my Harlicks were so heavy! Now, granted mine were too big, as well, but I've always found them to be weighty. I just got my new skates a week or so ago. I'm in High Testers with modifications.

I love them! I got the lightweight uppers and the carbon graphite sole. Even with the blade on, they weigh so much less than just my old boots! I feel like on my jumps (especially axel) I don't have something weighing me down as I kick through. They are super comfy and I was doing all of my jumps within a couple of days.

Just something to consider. It's only $50 on a stock boot to add the lightweight options.

[Query]

I hope the Edeas make you happy!

Nate: I understand where you are coming from too. There is a significant learning curve to sharpening skates. OTOH, its not black magic. If you are willing to work at it and to take the appropriate measurements, you can do it better than most pro shops. If you aren't willing to take that care, yes, you will probably mess it up. Especially with Parabolic, Tapered, or otherwise side honed blades.

And yes, it is neither uncommon nor surprising that some people drive for many hours to find a good sharpener. Or ship blades and/or skates round the world to their favored sharpener.

But the O.P. said:

I'm afraid to get an expensive blade.  I think our pro shop would butcher it.   Are parabolics easier to butcher?

My husband is an engineer and rebuilds cars.  He can do anything mechanical...

If the O.P. truly wants parabolics, and doesn't trust her pro shop, but does trust her husband, it is an option. Someone with enough tool knowledge to rebuild (she didn't just say repair) cars can probably figure out exactly what needs to be done. He probably has a lot of metal shop experience, and certainly knows all about technical measurements.

Not that I personally would choose parabolics - it would add too much extra time into sharpening right, and if I did use an inexpert sharpener, he/she would probably make a wavy mess of the edges. I don't even get what benefit parabolics are supposed to give, and why. As near as I can figure out, it means that when you are on a deep edge, a very slightly longer length of the blade touches the ice, as though you had a very slightly longer rocker radius. Is that good? If you are on a deep edge, you probably WANT to turn, so why isn't that bad? And with a typical thickness modulation on the order of .001 - .002", it seems like it should be a small effect.

It would be great if she could find a blade that already had the shape she wanted, including the sweet spot. But how can she determine that without buying a lot of blades, which gets expensive? Do you know of any good rules of thumb for that? You can instead mount your blade a little forward or back to shift the sweet spot a little - but that also shifts the toe pick and tail positions. The most expert sharpening pros I know, including the official figure skate sharpener at the Sochi Olympics, do reshape sweet spots to match the skater's desires.

[Bill_S]

I'm mainly worried about the blade impression on the bottom of the soles.   A very respected coach who is also a national judge and has many miles under her belt, told me that putting new blades on older boots doesn't work out that good because they don't always sit perpendicular.

I like to tinker, so here are a couple of options for dealing with the old mounting plate impression.

1) Sand down the high spots with ordinary sandpaper. If your husband has a belt sander, that will make short work of it. I'm sure that the amount of material to remove is small, and you won't remove it from the center area where the blade has already been mounted. Check the fit of the mating surfaces occasionally as material is removed.

2) You might also consider using RTV silicone sealant to act as a "liquid shim" that will harden considerably when it cures. If it's applied in a thin space, it won't compress much especially considering the large area of the mounting plate. The only issue there is that it's a great glue too, so repositioning the blades afterwards will be troublesome until the bond is broken. That might be overcome using a thin layer of petroleum jelly on the blade itself, and let the RTV material bond to only the boot. The lubricant will act as a release agent for the blade itself for adjustments later. Don't tighten the mounting screws much at all until the RTV silicone is cured and is stiff so that the blade isn't pressed into the cavity in a canted position.

FWIW, I use the RTV sealant when mounting new blades to fill the inevitable little gaps between the boot and blades. As a plus, it's nicely waterproof.

Those are a couple of ideas, and I'm sure there are other fixes too.

[Loops]

I'm mainly worried about the blade impression on the bottom of the soles.   A very respected coach who is also a national judge and has many miles under her belt, told me that putting new blades on older boots doesn't work out that good because they don't always sit perpendicular.

I'm sure this coach is speaking from some experience.  But check with your fitter to see what they say.  I've never heard of this problem before, and as a kid I used to swap blades on boots all the time (when they moved from being the freestyle boot to the patch boot for example).

Your sizing concerns are legitimate!!!!  My old ca 1988 Riedells took a 10.25"blade.  EVERY boot I tried on this past October/November (Jackson/Edea/Risport) took a 10"blade.  WHen I got those boots, I also got patch blades, with the idea that they'd eventually be mounted on them.  Those boots don't really fit, so that won't be happening.When I do eventually mount my patch blades on whatever boot I can acquire for them, they will hang off the back a microsmidge.  Since I can't replace the blades (+/- brand new silver tests) I'm going to fly with it.

A thought: can you find a used pair of patterns?  It's true that the rocker will be somewhat worn down, BUT it would let you transition to the new blade,  see if you like it without too much loss, and perhaps get yourself to a place where you're upgrading boots and blades at the same time, thus avoiding the sizing issue.   If you can find a GOOD sharpener, they might even be able to recreate the profile for you.  I actually know of one who can, he's in the DC area though, but often works by mail.

[Query]

If the blades don't sit perpendicular, you can also shim quite easily using tape. Add strips of tape to the mounting plates in appropriate places, until the mounting plates lay everywhere flat against the boot without needing to be pressed. Tape of the same color as the boot looks better - e.g., white tape with black boots looks weird, unless you color it black.

First aid tape - specifically "coach tape" works very well. Duct tape does not - as it wears, duct tape changes thickness.

You would have the same issue of not sitting exactly perpendicular, and needing shims, with new boots. There is usually a little mismatch, partly because people offset by different amounts, partly because boot bottom shapes differ a little, so the exact planes that you need to match differs to.

I believe there is no real reason to get different length blades with different boots. The blades should still match your anatomy, i.e., the sweet spot, toe pick and end of the tail should be in about the same spots relative to points on your feet if you want them to feel about the same. The boot outsole length is irrelevant to that, as it has no effect on your motions. (But I admit that isn't the conventional wisdom.)

But you keep coming up with reasons to get new boots to go with you new blades, so I guess that is what you really want. If that makes you happy, happiness is always good.